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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10345	The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.	Rainolds, John, 1549-1607.; Hart, John, d. 1586. aut; Rainolds, John, 1549-1607. Sex theses de Sacra Scriptura, et Ecclesia. English. aut	1584 (1584)	STC 20626; ESTC S115546	763,703	768

as Plato did excell among the Philosophers for witte and giftes of witte In the which conclusion that you may perceiue what I geue to Peter and refuse it if you mislike it by the giftes of grace I meane all the blessings wherewith the Lord did honour him by excelling in them I meane that he did passe not all the Apostles in them all but euery one in some or other For Iohn the disciple whom the Lord loued who wrote the Gospell so diuinely In the beginning was the worde who sawe by reuelation the things that were to come and wrote them by the spirite of prophecie Iohn excelled Peter in many giftes of grace as Ierom declareth And Paule excelled him farther euen in the chiefest giftes in so much that Austin who geueth excellent grace to Peter dooth geue most excellent grace to Paule and saith that he receiued more grace and laboured more then al the rest of the Apostles and is therefore called the Apostle by an excellencie But Peter of the other side excelled Paule in primacie that hée was chosen first and Iohn in age that he was elder in respect whereof hée was preferred before him by Ieroms opiniō to be the chief of the Apostles And this is it which Ierom and other Fathers meant by Peters principalitie if you will geue them leaue to be their owne interpreters They did not meane to call him Prince of the Apostles as the Pope desireth to bee Prince of Bishops Hart They did meane to call him the mouth and the top the highest the President and the head of the Apostles For these as I haue shewed are their own wordes by which a preeminence in gouernment is prooued and not in grace onely Rainoldes These in déede come néerer to the point in question because they touch gouernment at the least some of thē For some as the highest and so the toppe it may be too séeme to haue béene meant rather of preeminence in grace then in gouernment But if you will referre them vnto both it skilleth not For they can betoken no more then the rest And the rest doo signifie although a preeminence in gouernment such as it is yet nothing in comparison of your supremacie This is plaine by that which was agreed betwixt vs when wee spake of the practise of Peters autoritie in the Actes of the Apostles For when I graunted him to be as the Speaker of the Parlament in England or the President of a court of Parlament in Fraunce and shewed the great difference out of a lawier of your owne betweene this preeminence and that supremacie which you claime you reiected the lawier as either ignorant or vnfaithful and refused this préeminence as not importing that supremacie because it hath not soueraine power nay in power is vnder the body of the assembly aboue which it is in a prerogatiue of honor Yet this preeminence is all that is geuen to Peter by the titles of the mouth the head the President of the Apostles Wherefore it is euident that by those titles your Papall supremacie is not geuen to him Hart. It may by your similitudes be probably thoght that some of the rest might note such a preeminēce in gouernment as you speake of without a souerainty of power But the title of head hath greater strength in it For the Speaker is not called with vs in England the head of the Parlament That title is reserued to the Princ e alone Rainoldes But the President of a Court of Parlament in Fraunce is called head of the Court and Austin or rather he whom you alleadged in the name of Austin expoundeth head by President and the name of head as I haue prooued out of the Scriptures is vsed to note a preeminence of other things not of power much lesse of Princely power only Then what reason is there but Ierom in saying that Peter was appointed head might signifie the preeminence not of a Prince but of a Speaker We geue not in England the name of head vnto the Speaker True Neither geue we the name of Speaker to the Prince But Peter hath them both For hee is called the mouth and head of the Apostles If the one debase him not to the meanenesse of a Speakers function why should the other aduaunce him to the highnesse of a Princes soueraintie Hart. S. Ieroms reason sheweth that hée rather meant a soueraintie as of a Prince For he ●aith that Peter was chosen one amongst the twelue to the intent that a head beeing appointed occasion of schisme might be taken away And how can occasion of schisme be taken away vnlesse that one haue souerain power to gouerne all Rainoldes Why Doo you not thinke that Fraunce appointed Presidents in the Courts of Parlament for the better ordering of them in their dooings that occasion of strife might be taken away What In frée States which are ruled in commō not by one Prince but by the best men or by the whole people doo not their stories shew that one had a preeminence as the Consul at Rome the Prouost at Athens though the soueraintie were in many who had like authoritie and power amongst themselues And did they not appoint this one to be the chiefe and head of their company that occasion of strife might be taken away So fared it with Peter amongst the Apostles in gouerning the church whose state if wée compare with the states of common wealths we shall finde that it was an aristocratie not a monarchie as the Philosophers terme it not hauing Peter as a Prince but the Apostles as the best men to gouerne it in common Yet as in all assemblies wherein many méete about affaires of gouernment there must néedes be one for orders sake and peace to beginne to end to moderate the actions so was that preeminence geuen to Peter amongst the Apostles that all things might be done peaceably and orderly And this to be the headship which S. Ierom meant himself in that very place in which he toucheth it dooth shew manifestly For hauing set downe his aduersaries obiection But thou saiest the church is built vpon Peter he answereth thereto Although the same be done in another place on all the Apostles and they all receiue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the strength of the church is grounded on them equally yet therefore is one chosen amongst the twelue that a head being appointed occasion of schisme may be taken away Of the which sentence the former branch sheweth that by the name of head vsed in the later he could not meane that Peter had a soueraine power ouer the Apostles For all Peters power is comprised in the keies that Christ did promise him and in the building of the church vpon him But all the Apostles receiue the keyes by Ieroms iudgement and the church is builte vpon them

of the fewnesse and oppression of the Bishops in the Councell of Ephesus and desiring that a generall Councell might be kept because Flauianus had appealed You must adde therefore the Empresse Placidia to the Emperour Valentinian and with the ones words of appealing to Leo take that the other sayth to Leo and to all the Bishops of these partes So Leo and the Bishops being ioyned together will make the Councell of Chalcedon by the which Councell the cause of Flauianus and his appeale was iudged The same Councell also did iudge Theodorets cause finding him guiltlesse restored him to his Sée Wherefore sith the Councell was iudge of the appeale if he appealed to Leo and not to the Councell it was an ouersight Unlesse perhaps he did not appeale as to a higher iudge that might restore him but as to a man of learning and autoritie whose credit and iudgement might helpe to proue him not guiltie And this doth the tenour of his request pretend Though asking wi●hall the aduise of Leo whether he shall beare that wrongfull depriuation or seeke to be restored he séemeth to haue thought of a further matter Which yet he toucheth so in speaking of troubling men and crauing Leos prayers that it is euident it lay not in Leo alone to restore him Wherefore the most that you may well imagine of an appeale made by Theodoret to Leo for remedie of the wrong done him is that Leo tooke his bill of appeale to preferre it to the Councell whereof he was President As with vs in England the billes are put vp to the Speaker of the Parlament that he may informe the Parlament thereof not as though himselfe had soueraine power to passe them Hart. Then you grant that Leo was President of the Councell as in déede he was and head of the Bishops therein as themselues say Which sheweth that they counted the Pope their supreme head Rainoldes You will find more heads then the Popes shoulders will be content to beare if you make such reasons First the Bishop of Corduba For Hosius was President of the Councell of Nice nor of Nice onely but also of Sardica and of many others Next the Bishop of Antioche or whosoeuer he were that had the roome in the Councell of Constantinople For the Pope had it not Thirdly the Bishop of Alexandria Hart. Nay Cyrill who had it in the third general Councel was Deputie therein to Pope Caelestinus as Euagrius writeth Rainoldes Caelestinus ioyned his autoritie to Cyrils But Cyrill was President as wel as Caelestinus in more mens iudgement then Euagrius Howbeit if he were not yet Alexandria will haue a head still For Dioscorus was President in the next of Ephesus neither he alone but also the Bishops of Ierusalem and Caesarea Wherefore if the Presidentship of a generall Councell do make a supreme head then Corauba in Spaine Alexandria in Egypt Ierusalem in Iewrie and other cities of the East may claime the supreme headship as well as Rome in Italie The Pope will be loth to haue so many partners But to deliuer him from that feare or rather the Church from his tyrannie and the truth from your sophisme there is a distinction in Cardinall Turrecremata which is worth the noting vpon this very point The Presidētship of Councels he sayth is two-folde one of honour an other of power Presidentship of honor is to haue preeminēce in place to propose things to direct the actions to giue definitiue sentence according to the voices and iudgement of the Councell Presidentship of power is to haue the right not onely of directing but of ruling their doings also and to conclude of matters after his owne iudgement though the greater part of the Councell like it not yea though no part like it Now the Popes supremacie chalengeth this Presidentship of power in Councels as though he alone were soue●aine iudge there which appéereth by his practise in the Councell of Vienna and by the Cardinals doctrine with the chiefest Papists But that which the general Councell of Chalcedon gaue vnto Leo in naming him their head was the Presidentship of honour as himself shewed in his Legates and Deputies who vsed all the Bishops as their fellow-iudges and concluded nothing but what they agréed of Wherefore the Presidentship which they gaue to Leo was no Papall soueraintie neither did they acknowledge him in that particular much lesse the Pope in generall to be their supreme head Hart. The Fathers did in general acknowledge the Pope and taught vs to acknowledge him our vniuersall Patriarke and Bishop of the Catholike Church nay to vse yet more the wordes of the most ancient Fathers our Prince the head of al Churches the top and the chiefe of the Apostolike company or as Epiphanius speaketh the chiefest the teacher of the whole world the ruler of the house of God an other father of the houshold and the first begotten whose seate as the most excellent Diuine S. Austin sayth hath the preeminence of a higher roome in the pastorall watch-tower which is common to all Bishops And will any man desire greater proofes of the Popes supremacie Rainoldes If any man doe he must take the paines to séeke them somewhere else Sure he is not like to finde them in your Stapleton For these are the chiefest of all in his treasurie Which therefore he culled out and sent them for a present to Gregorie the thirtéenth to shew what good wordes they giue of his Holinesse for his liberalitie toward the English Seminaries But he presenteth him with one title more which you haue omitted and yet doth it aduance him aboue all the rest Hart. None of the titles which the Fathers giue him Belike you meane that of the Emperour Rainoldes No I meane that of his owne Supremum in terris Numen In déede it hath no Fathers testimonie to proue it But as in this title he playeth the notable flatterer with the Pope so in the rest the notable sophister with you For the titles of our Prince the toppe the cheefe and chiefest of the Apostolike companie the teacher of the whole world an other father of the houshold and the first begotten are giuen by Optatus Chrysostome Epiphanius and a bastard Austin to Peter not to the Pope Stapleton alleaging them sayth that he vseth the wordes of the Fathers That is cunningly spoken For it is true he vseth their wordes though not their meaning As for the title of vniuersall Patriarke the Councell of Chalcedon which he quoteth for it gaue it not to the Pope neither Hart. No did not Theodore and certaine others there giue it to Pope Leo. Rainoldes A few poore suiters in their supplications to him and the Councell did séeke his fauour with it But neither the Councell nor any one Bishop of the Councell

you complaine I know you may haue more bookes if you would haue such as are best for you to read But you would haue such as might nourish your humor from reading of the which they who restraine you are your friendes If a man do surfet of varietie of dishes the Phisicion doth well to dyet him with one wholsome kinde of meat Perhaps it were better for some of vs who read all sortes that we were tyed to that alone suffred part of your restraint We are troubled about many things but one thing is needfull Many please the fansie better but one doth profit more the minde He was a wise preacher who said The reading of many bookes is a wearinesse vnto the flesh and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by the wordes of trueth the wordes of the wise which are giuen by one pastor euen by Iesus Christ whose spirit did speake in the Prophets and Apostles and taught his Church the trueth by them Howbeit for as much as God hath giuen giftes to men pastours and teachers whose labour might helpe vs to vnderstand the words of that one pastor we do receaue thankfully the monuments of their labour left in wryting to the Church which they were set to builde eyther seuerall as the Doctors or assembled as the Councels we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church Yet so that we put a difference betwene them and that one Pastor For God did giue him the spirite not by measure the rest had a measure of grace and knowledge through him Wherfore if to supply your whatsoeuer wants you would haue the bookes of Doctors and Councels to vse them as helps for the better vnderstanding of the booke of Christ your wants shal be supplyed you shall not need to feare disaduantage in this respect For M. Secretarie hath taken order that you shall haue what bookes you will vnlesse you will such as cannot be gotten Hart. The bookes that I would haue are principally in déed the Fathers and the Councels which all do make for vs as do the scriptures also But for my direction to finde out their places in all poyntes of controuersie which I can neither remember redily nor dare to trust my selfe in them I would haue our writers which in the seuerall poyntes whereof they treate haue cited them and buyld themselues vpon them In the question of the Church and the supremacie Doctor Stapleton of the Sacraments and sacrifice of the Masse Doctor Allen of the worshipping of Sayntes and Images Doctor Harpsfield whose bookes were set forth by Alan Cope beare his name as certaine letters in them shew Likewise for the rest of the pointes that lie in controuersie them who in particular haue best written of them for them al in generall S. Thomas of Aquine Father Roberts Dictates and chiefly the confession that Torrensis an other father of the societie of Iesus hath gathered out of S. Augustine which booke we set the more by because of al the Fathers S. Augustine is the chéefest as well in our as your iudgement and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers whose consent is the rule whereby controuersies should be ended Rainoldes These you shall haue God willing and if you will Canisius too because he is so full of textes of Scriptures and Fathers and many doe estéeme him highly But this I must request you to looke on the originalles of Scriptures Councels Fathers which they doe alleadge For they doe perswade you that all doe make for you but they abuse you in it They borrow some gold out of the Lordes treasure house and wine out of the Doctors presses but they are deceitful workmen they do corrupt their golde with drosse their wine with worse then water Hart. You shall finde it harder to conuince them of it then to charge them with it Rainoldes And you shall finde it harder to make proofe of halfe then to make claime of all Yet you shall see both youre claime of all the Scriptures and Fathers to bee more confidente then iust and my reproofe of your wryters for theyr corrupting and forging of them as plainly prooued as vttered if you haue eyes to see God lighten your eyes that you may see open your eares that you may heare and geue you both a softe hart and vnderstanding minde that you may be able wisely to discerne and gladly to embrace the trueth when you shall heare it Hart. I trust I shall be able alwayes both to see and to followe the trueth But I am perswaded you will be neuer able to shew that that is the trueth which your Church professeth As by our conference I hope it shal be manifest Rainoldes UUill you then to lay the ground of our conference let me know the causes why you separate your selfe and refuse to communicate with the Church of England in prayers and religion Hart. The causes are not many They may be al comprysed in one Your Church is no Church You are not members of the Church Rainoldes How proue you that Hart. By this argument The Church is a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head You professe not one faith vnder one head Therefore you are not of the Church Rainoldes What is that one faith Hart. The catholike faith Rainoldes Who is that one head Hart. The Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Then both the propositions of which you frame your argument are in part faultie The first in that you say the church is a companie of Christian men vnder one head The second in that you charge vs of the church of England that wee professe not one faith For we do professe that one faith the catholike faith But we deny that the church is bound to be subiect to that one head the bishop of Rome Hart. I will proue the pointes of both my propositions the which you haue denied First that the church must be subiect to the Bishop of Rome as to her head Next that the faith which you professe in England is not the catholike faith Rainoldes You will say somewhat for them but you will neuer proue them Hart. Let the church iudge For the first thus I proue it S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles Therefore the Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops If of Bishops then by consequent of the dioceses subiect to them If of all their dioceses then of the whole church The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of the whole church of Christ. Rainoldes S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops I had thought that Christ our Sauiour both was and is the head as of the whole church so of Apostles of Bishops of all the members of it For the church is his

England did not amount The king though misliking the disorder greatly yet being loth to medle with the redresse of it for feare of the Pope the stripes of whose wrath against his father king Iohn against his coosen Otho the Emperour and Othos successour Fridericke the second were bleeding fresh before his eyes the Nobles and Commons sent a supplication to Pope Innocentius and the generall Councell assembled then at Lyons Wherein vpon complaint that an infinite number of Italians in England had the charge of flockes who neither fedde nor knew nor cared for their sheepe but receiued onely the fruites reuenues and caried them out of the realme that the yearely rents of Italians in England amounted to three score thousand markes and vpward besides diuers other auailes which they reaped where they sowed not that England hoped for some reliefe of these grieuances when Innocentius was made Pope but now it is oppressed more out of measure by the Popes legat who entring late into the land with larger power and commission then euer legate had doth exceede excessiuely he giueth to Italians some benefices alreadie voide worth thirtie markes or more yearely some that fall voide by the decease of Italians he thrusteth new Italians into some he doth prouide when they shall be voide to be reserued for Italians moreouer he wresteth out immoderate pensions from religious persons and vseth to excommunicate interdict of Church-seruice of sacraments of Christian buriall them who gainesay him and resist him vpon this complaint the Nobles and Commons of the realme of England made humble sute vnto his fatherhood that he wold extend the hand of mercy to his children ease them of those burdens of grieuances and oppressions detestable to God and men The messengers by whom this supplication was sent presented it before the Pope vnto the generall Councell To whom they made complaint withall of a clause in the Popes bulles called Non obstante by which hee brake all lawes and orders of the church to serue these his purposes For whatsoeuer made against the tenor of his bull he vsed to remoue it with a Non obstante As for example the Churches law and order confirmed by a Councell was that one man should haue but one benefice and none should haue any but he who could himselfe discharge the duetie personally The Pope sendeth forth his bulles for fiue Romans the sonne of Rumfrede and such and such that they shall be prouided for of so many benefices as may be worth to each of them a hundred pounde yearely Non obstante that law Pope Innocent was grieued at this supplication and complaint of England which touched his supremacie so néere to the quicke Howbeit for the present hee made them faire promises and sent them sundry priuileges from the Councell of Lyons that Patrones thenceforth should freely presente and Bishops should admitte fit persons to benefices who would and could well serue the charge that the Clerke of his Escheker that was his legate should prouide but for twelue moe without consent of the Patrones that if English men would be studious honest and thankeful chiefely the sonnes of Noble men he would prouide for them also and dispense honorably with the worthiest of them for pluralitie of benefices finally that no Italian should immediately succeede an Italian which was obtained for their treacheries who when one that had a benefice was dead would foyst an other into his roome And these thinges were promised but they were promised onely For after that the Councell was dissolued once the Pope played the Pope and brake them all with Non obstante And as Pharao hardened his hart against Israel and laied more worke vpon them when they desired ease of bondage so did Innocent against England In so much that after sixe or seuen yeares when a vew was taken againe of the bricke made of our English Israel for the Italian Pharao the summe of those reuenues which before amounted to three score thousand marks was growne to three score thousand and ten with the aduantage Now if the outrage of this abominat●on were so monstrous in one realme what was it in all throughout the rest of Christendome If Popes did so exceede aboue three hundred yeares ago in the prime of their Papacie when the iointes of it were yet scarsely knit what is it likely they did after If by one policy they brought so great wealth vnto their Court and state yea by part of one applyed to furnish their Italians what may bee thought of the same applied to furnish the home-borne each in their owne countrie What of so many others some of them as fruitfull as this some more fruitfull What of their whole gouernment wherein they haue claimed a fulnes of power to doo what they list and they haue put their claime in practise What wordes may serue to vtter the spoiles which they haue made of the Church of Christ first by ordeining of the Church-officers in creating Bishops Archbishops Patriarkes and weauing palls for them in disanulling the elections of some who lawfully were chosen in graunting some who could not be chosen lawfully to haue the roomes by postulations in chopping and changing their persons from one Sée to an other by translations and their dioceses by diuisions in giuing pastours liuings away ●uer their heads by reuersions or aduowsons in shaping newe creatures Preaching Friers and Minorites and giuing them the power of pastours in dispensations with boyes dispensations with bastards dispensations with idiotes that they may haue the charge of soules dispensations with murderers with adulterers with Simoniaks that they may kepe their benefices dispensations for pluralities that one may haue twentie dispensations for non-residence that they néede neuer come vnto them to be short in reseruaes acces●es regresses coadiutories vnions preuentions permutations and a thousand such deuises belonging to the market of benefices and bishoprickes Secondly by dealing with the Church causes wherein they haue receyued appeales from all quarters that they might fish in troubled water they haue fetched persons a thousand miles off by citations to their consistorie they haue disturbed the peace and discipline of the Church by sending legates a latere by putting matters to their delegates by priuileging men from lawes and exempting inferiours from their superiours regiment they haue multiplied humaine decrees and made them snares to catch foules lawes that none shall mary in this or that degrée of carnall kinred or spirituall canons that men whose persons haue such or such a blemish shall not ascend to priestly orders vowes of pilgrimage of chastitie of pouertie of obedience of Nunrie Moonkry Fryery which all they haue released for money yea they haue released othes solemne othes and haue giuen licences to commit periurie they haue made sale of forgiuenes of sinnes and marchandize of mens soules they haue turned repentance

he knew and furnished with the treasures of the Popes librarie to know the best that might be saide yet after many floorishes for Constantines donation of the largest sise he addeth in conclusion that the Pope Gregorie the third did excommunicate Leo the Emperour and caused Rome and Italie to rebell against him absoluing all his subiectes from their oth of fealtie And so he confuteth the lye which himselfe and Genebrard doo build on that Rome after Constantine was not the Emperours but the Popes and graunteth by consequent that the Popes temporall dominion in Italie was vnlawfully gotten and wrongfully vsurped by this deuise of treason Hart. Nay Genebrard hath other reasons to defend the right of the Pope if these doo not content men For I saith he answere to heretikes impugning the donation of Constantine that which Iephte did in the eleuenth of Iudges to the king of Ammonites requiring the land of Galaad to bee restored him we will possesse that which the Lord our God hath conquered and obteined Vnlesse perhaps thou canst shew that any man did striue about it for the space of three hundred yeares here for a thousand yeares and more Why so long time haue you attempted nothing for the recouerie of it Chiefly sith the prescription of certaine yeares sufficeth in groundes and possessions Moreouer the consent of Italie and of the Church and of the whole world is of force enough to giue the Pope that right Finally that Constantine remoued the seat of the earthly Empire to Constantinople through Gods speciall prouidence to the end that the kingdome of the Church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might haue his seate at Rome it appeareth by this that straight the westerne Emperours Constans and the rest who folowed for certaine ages left Rome still and placed the seate of the westerne Empire at Milan or Rauenna and also that Constantius the nephiew of Heraclius Michael and certaine others would haue brought it in againe to Rome but could not Wherefore howsoeuer the Popes dominion temporall began or whensoeuer it is sure that he hath right vnto it now Rainoldes The point that we reason of is not M. Hart what right he hath now but what wrong heretofore hee hath doone the Emperour to obteine this right Though neither can you proue his right by these reasons For that which Iephte spake of gotten by the Israelites they got by lawfull warre The Pope hath gotten his by vnlawfull treacherie And prescription holdeth not in thinges that are stollen and detained by force if you beleeue the law As for the thousand yeares and more which Genebrard addeth that no man stroue about it if he meane about Constantines donation no maruell if they stroue not about that which was not If he meane about that which Popes claime thereby it hath two vntruthes one that they haue helde it a thousand yeares and more an other that no man stroue with them about it For to passe ouer the Emperours before touched and namely Friderike the first the Romans them selues had many bickerings with them for the temporall rule and gouernment of the citie contending that the Pope should medle with the spirituall onely Whereby withall appeareth how vaine the bragge is of the consent of Italie the church and the whole world Though neither their consent can giue the Pope that right vnlesse the Roman Emperours the right owners of it do consent also And how they consent you may learne by late Emperours of whom one desired to recouer Rome and all the Popes dominion as being his of right an other did more then desire i● or rather by late Popes who are afraide of nothing more then of the Emperours comming into Italie Now the last reason of Gods speciall prouidence remouing the seate of the westerne Empire to Constantinople to the end that the kingdom of the church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might haue his seate at Rome beside that it is seasoned after Genebrards maner with vntruth of storie as that the western Emperours who succeeded Constantine for certaine ages left Rome still which is disproued by Honorius it wresteth Gods worde to the maintenance of mans pride For the Churches kingdome which Daniel forespake of is the kingdome of the Iewes touching the temporall state touching the spirituall the kingdome of the Saintes that doth endure for euer And if we presume vpon the secret workes of the prouidence of God to gather what the fansie of man doth imagin not what the wisedom of God hath reuealed the Turkish impietie may bee as well proued as the Papall kingdom because as the seate of the westerne Empire is fallen to the Pope so Constantinople the seat of the Easterne is fallen to the Turke But whatsoeuer right these reasons may afforde to the Pope now they acquite him not from hauing doon wrong to the Emperours heretofore in that he got his temporall dominion from them by treason and rebellion And this is the first point wherein you went about to cléere his supremacie The next is his tyrannie in spirituall things Wherein your defense of him is so tempered that although you cannot choose but acknowledge his faute in those excesses which I laide open yet doo you smooth them as abuses onely of lawfull autoritie and not vnlawfull actes of vsurped power For you say that if any of the Bishops of Rome abused their wealth to any euill purpose or els their autoritie in any of the pointes mentioned by me you are so farre off from iustifying them therein that rather you rew to see it and you condemne them therefore A short and sclender answere to all their crimes that I touched Howbeit if you speake vnfainedly M. Hart as I pray God you doo I am glad that you seeke not to iustifie the Popes in any of the pointes that I charged them with but rew and condemne their abuses therein For I laide to their charge that they haue oppressed both the ciuil state and the ecclesiasticall the ciuil in taking vpon them to giue Empires to depose Princes to discharge subiectes of their allegiance and oth the ecclesiasticall in making of Church-officers ordering of Church-causes disposing of Church-goodes executing of Church-censures and establishing of Church-lawes to serue their owne desires and lustes In all the which pointes if you condemne their doinges as abuses of their autoritie you condemne the practise of their whole supremacie as nothing els in grosse but an heape of abuses Hart. Not of their whole supremacie For though some of them abused their autoritie in sundrie pointes which you mentioned yet others haue not doon so As we had experience in Quéene Maries dayes wherein there were not so many Church-liuings bestowed in England vpon Italian Pastors as you spake of vnder Gregorie the ninth or Innocentius the fourth But howsoeuer they dealt with practise of their power which they abused I graunt the power