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A47813 The casuist uncas'd, in a dialogue betwixt Richard and Baxter, with a moderator between them, for quietnesse sake by Roger L'Estrange. L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1680 (1680) Wing L1209; ESTC R233643 73,385 86

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Baxter professe to have in several of your Writings to entertain yet very Reverend Thoughts of the Pybald Assembly His Late Majesty had quite another Opinion of them See his Proclamation Inhibiting the Assembly of Divines an● others Summoned to Westminster by an Ordinance of Both Houses of Parliament Bibliotheca Regia P. 328. Iun. 22. 1643. Whereas there hath been a long time a desperate and Seditious design amongst diverse Factious persons to alter the whole Frame Constitution and Government of this Church so long and so happily Established within this Kingdome in pursuance whereof they have discountenanceed and in a manner suppressed the Book of Common Prayer settled by Law driven away Imprisoned Removed very many Learned Orthodox Godly Divines and Ministers from their Cures for discharging their duty and Conscience in Preaching and in their places without the least colour or shadow of Lawfull Authority have Instituted or Deputed mean Factious Persons Unqualify'd with Learning or Virtue to corrupt and poyson the minds of our Good Subjects with Principles of reason and Rebellion and have seized the Rents and Revenues of our Bishops Deans and Chapters for their own private Lucre or Benefit and for the Maintenance of the Army in Rebellion against us Pray Observe my Friends that this was before the Scots were call'd in and the work of men too in Opposition to the Church I come now to your Apostolical Assembly Since These bloudy distempers and when so many Armies are on Foot in several parts of the Kingdom a Bill hath been presented to us for the Calling of an Assembly of such Divines as are mentioned in the said Bill the far greater part whereof are men of no Reputation or Learning and eminently disaffected to the Government of the Church of England and very many of them are persons who have openly pr●ached Rebellion and incited the People to take up Armes against us and so are not like to be proper Instruments of Peace in Church or State which Bill having many Claus●s in it very derogatory to our Honour and Iust Rights and very Scandalous to the Reformed Protestant Religion not so much as any part being left to Us either in the Choice of the Persons or in Adjo●rning or Dissolving the Assembly Bib. Regia Pa. 329. What do you think now of the Worthy Assembly your Men of sound and Loyall Principles of Government and Obedience These are the Men that you declare your selves Resolved to stand or fall by and out of your own mouths a Man may warrant This Assertion that you are no better Friends to This King then that Parliament and that Assembly were to the La●● Methinks This Testimony of his Late Majesty against your designes and Proceedings should move your Consciences and stare you in the Faces as if it were his Ghost You would have the world believe that the Covenant was never Imposed but that people might take it or let it alone as they pleased That the Assembly silenced no body forced nothing and that Presbytery was only as a Tolerated or Intended thing c. Now how great an Abuse this is upon That part of the Nation that does not know the story will appear out of the Memorials of These Times under the Authority of the Faction it self The Lords and Commons took the Vow and Covenant Iun. 6. 1643. Husbands Collections Fol. 203. and thought fit to have it taken by the Ar●ie● and Kingdome Ibid. Arch-Bishop of Canterbu●●●● Temporal Livings Dignities and Ecclesi●st●●●● P●●motions Sequestered Iune 10. 1143. 〈…〉 for calling an Assembly of Learned 〈…〉 Thirty of the Layety in the Commission Iune 24. 208. An Order for Ministers upon the Fast-day to pray for a blessing on this Assembly Iune 27.43 The Assembly Petitions Both Houses for a Fast and the removing of Blind Guides and Scandalous Ministers destroying Monuments of Idolatry c. Iuly 10. 19●3 Fol. 240. An Order for Divines that attend the Assembly to go into the Country to stir up the people to rise for their Defense Aug. 10. 1643. Fol. 285. An Ordinance for taking away of Superstitious Monuments Aug. 28. 1643. Fol. 307. An Ordinance to examine Witnesses against Scandalous Ministers Sep. 6. 164● Fol. 311. Souldiers to take the Covenant Octob. 10 Fol. 359. An Order for the Assembly of Divines to treat of a Discipline and Government the present to be abo●ished and to prepare a Directory Octo. 1● 16●● 〈…〉 An Order for returning the Names of such as take not the Covenant to the House of Commons Nov. 30. 1643. Fol. 390. An Order for diverse persons to take the Covenant at Margarets Westminster Dec. 12. 1643. Fol. 399. An Ordinance disabling any person within the City of London from any place of Trust that shall not take the Covenant Dec. 20. 1643. Fol. 404. An exhortation for taking the Covenant c. Feb. 9. 1644. Fol. 422. An Order for taking it throughout the Kingdomes of England and Scotland with Instructions Feb. 9. 1644. Fol. 420. A Second Order for demolishing Superstitious Monuments May 9. 1644. Fol. 487. An Order for none to Preach but Ordained Ministers except allowed by Both Houses of Parliament May 6. 1645. Fol. 646. An Order for putting the Directory in Execution Aug. 11. 1645. Fol. 715. Severall Votes for choice of Elders throughout all England and Wales Feb. 20. 1646. Fol. 809. An Order for taking the Negative Oath and National Covenant Iun. 2. 1646. Fol. 889. An Order for putting the Orders of Church-Government in execution Iun. 9. 1646. Fol. 889. An Order for dividing the County of Lancashire into 9. Classes Octob. 2. 1646 Fol. 919. An Order for Abolishing Arch-Bishops and Bishops and settling their Lands upon Trustees for the use of the Common-Wealth Octob. 9. 1646. Fol. 992. An Order for the speedy dividing and settling of several Counties of This Kingdome into distinct Classical Presbyteries and Congregational Elderships Ian. 19. 1647. Scobells Acts 139. The Form of Church-Government to be used in the Church of England and Ireland agreed upon by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament after Advice had with the Assembly of Divines Aug. 29. 1648. Fol. 165. By this time I hope you are satisfy'd that it was a Presbyterian War according to the very Letter Or if the Nonconformists did not begin the War pray'e who bid Ri. Our Calamities began in Differences about Religion and still That 's the wound that most needs Closing c R. B's Fast Sermon 1660. p. 41. Ba. Do not you know that write about the Cause that the War was not founded in Theologicall differences but in Law differences R. B's Letter to Mr. Hi●ckly p. 25. Ri. The first open beginning was the Militia Non. Conf. Plea p. 126. Ba. I know how unsatisfy'd many are concerning the Lawfullnesse of the War I cannot yet perceive by any thing which they object but that we undertook our Defence upon warrantable
had wrought his Majestiss Restauration But I find up●● Perusall of it ●hat you are just as kind to the Church in this Piece of 1660. as you were a litle before to his Majesty in your Holy Common Wealth of 1659. That is to say you are begging arguing and Casing of it all that is in you to keep them both out and truly This Particular piece of yours makes almost as bold with the King himself as with the Episcopal Clergy as you shall hear by and by Was it not enough for you to Adjure the Commons into an Opposition o● That Order in the Church which as he t●lls you is as Antient as the Monarchy of This Island An Order that you and your Confederates most Undu●ifully destroy'd But could you now have the Confidence to demand the spoyls again which you first ravish'd from the Church and the Independents afterward took from you as the Reward of your Sedition and Schism And could you yet have the greater Confidence in case of a Disappointment to break out into this most Unchristian Excl●mation on the behalf of the People Oh What happy times did we on●● see That is to say when the Kingdome was Laid in Bl●od and Ashes all that was Sacred trampled under Foot And all this Confusion only to heave the Presbyter into the Saddle Ri. I have described the Iudgment of such Non-conformists 〈◊〉 I have Conversed with not undertaking for every odd person wh●● I know not I do desire those that seek our Bloud and Ruine by the false Accusation of Rebellious Principles to tell me if they can wh●t Bodies or Party of men on Earth have more sound and Loya●● Principles of Government and Obedience 2d Part. Non-Co● Plea Pref. Our Accusations are 1. That we are Presbyteria●s and Phanatiques 2. That we began the War in 1641. and 16●● 3. That we destroy'd the King 4. That our Principles are Disl●●al 5. That we are Plo●ting a Rebellion Ibid. But what is a Pr●●byterian Mo. A Presbyterian is a Member of a State Faction under a Religious denomination For by that 〈◊〉 we do not understand such as are really of That Cl●ss●cal and Whymsical Profession but a sort of People tha● drive on a Political design under the Colour of an Ecclesiastical Scruple of perswasion And in as extensive a Latitude do you take the Word your selves For all the Sects are Presbyterians or Dissenting Protestants as you call them when you have need of them in Con●●ederacy against the Government though the Presby●terians spews all the rest up again as they did in 1647. when they had done th●ir work But pray what say ye to the B●ginning o● the War Ri. In 1642. the Lamentable Civil War ●●ok● out At which time as far as ●ver we could l●arn by A●qu●intance with s●m● of them and Report of others excepting an In●onsid●rable number the Houses of Lords and Commons consisted of Those that had still lived in Con●ormity to the Church of England and the Episcopa●l Government c. 1 Part. Non-Conform Plea p. 126. The Lord Li●utenants whom the Parliament chos● were almost all Epis●opal Conformists Ibid. The ●ar Greater Part of the Gene●all Officers Colonells Li●utenant-Colonells and Majors of the Earl o● Essex his Army And of the Sea-Cap●ai●s and of the M●jor-G●nerals of Brigades and Counties about the Land bid The Assembly of Divines at Westminster also were m●n that had liv●● in Conformity except about 8. or 9. and the Scots p. 12● Mo. You do well Richard to say that ●hey HAD Lived in Conformity for the Complying humour was now going off apace Insomuch that a profe●t opposition to the Orders of the Church became q●●ckly a distinguishing mark of the disloyal Party And all those Parliament men O●●icers and Assembly-Div●nes Contributed Unanimously in their several S●at●●n● toward the Common Ruine On Fryd●y D●c 1● 1640. A Petition was brought into the 〈…〉 All●derman Pennington from the Citizens of Lon●●n in 〈◊〉 name of 15000. Complaining of the Church 〈◊〉 in having Arch-Bishops B●shops c. Usin● the Cr●sse in Baptisme Kneeling at the Communion-Table 〈◊〉 unlawfull in the Protestant Church Diurnal Occurrences Pa. 12. Ian 13. Petition against the Government of Bishops from Several Counties P. 16. Ian. 13. The Remonstrance with 700. hands against the Bishops and their Prelacy was read P. 33. March 7. A Bill against Episcopacy read in the House of Commons c. Pa. 47. Mar. 10. 1640. Bishops Votes in Parliament taken away Pa. 49. in Novem. 1641. several Tumults against Bishops and Dec. 11 12. Bishops accused of High-Treason The Bishops in the mean time Petitioning his Majesty and entring a Protest of their Priviledges and against Tumults Apr. 2. 1642. A due and necessary Reformation of the Government and Liturgy of the Church pretended Ex. Col. P. 135. It is to be hoped that all These violences upon the Ecclesiastical State and the Persons of the Bishops were not acted by Conformists And it will not be deny'd I suppose that after the Posting and Proscribing of the Greater part of the Clergi●s Friends as well as the Kings The Schismatical Int●rest was carry'd on by the Major vote of the Rem●ining Fragment and all This was before the Eruption of the War the Earl of Essex not receiving his Commission till Iuly 12. 1642. Unless you 'le say that Epis●opal men themselves were for the Extirpation o● Bishops Ri. When the Parliaments Armys were worsted and weakned by the King and they found thems●lves in dang●r of being Ov●rcome th●y intreat●d help from the ●cots 't is true who taking advantage of thei● streights brought in the Covenant as the Condition of their help Non-Conf 1 part p. 27. And ●or the Assembly 1 I think I have not read of m●ny Assemblies o● Worthier men since the Apostles days Answ. to Dr. Stillingfle●t p 84. The Covenant ●●d Vow was taken by the Parliament and by their Garisons ●nd Soldiers that would voluntarily take it as a Test whom they mig●● Trust Non-Conf Plea p. 128. The Assembly never endeavoured to turn the Independents out of the Parish-Churches and Benefices nor to Silence them forbidding them Publick Preaching as you do us c. Answ. to Dr. Stillingf p. 14. They Imposed no Liturgy no one Ceremony no Practice on them contrary to their Conscience p. 85. The Presbytery being only a Tolerated or Intended thing without any Imposition that ●ver we knew of Mo. It is very well known what pains your Celebrated Assembly took to make the City bleed for That Scottish expidition and we have the Guild hall Harangues on That Occasion still upon Record But I shall rather mind you of some Proceedings which you would be thought to have forgotten to the Immortal Honour of your Confederates Only half a dozen Words in the way to it It is no wonder for men that have so low an Esteem for Generall Counsells as both You Sir and Mr.
or Commodity of the Common-wealth Pa. 115. Ri. But what was it you were saying e'en now of the Best Governours in the World Ba. I was saying that the Best Governours in all the World that have the Supremacy have been Resisted or deposed in England I mean 1. Them that the Army called the C●rrupt Majority or an Hundred Forty and Three Imprison'd and Secluded Members of the Long Parliament who as the Majority had you know what power 2. The Powers that were last layd by I should with great Rejoycing give a Thousand Thanks to That man that will acquaint me of One Nation upon all the Earth that hath better Governours in Sovereign Power as to Wisdome and Holyness Conjun●t then those that have been Resisted or deposed in Engl●●● Ho. Com. Pref. Ri. You Speak of the Secluded Members and the Two Cromwells But they all came in by Violence And I know none of the Non-Conformists that take it not for Rebellion to pull down or s●t up ●orcibly by the Sword any thing against the Supreme R●ler or Without him R. Bs. Letter to Mr. Hinckly Pa. 8● Ba. The Parliament did Remonstrate to the Kingdom the danger of the Subversion of Religion and Liberties and of the Common Good and Interest of the People whose Trustees they were Ho. Com. Pa. 471. And If a Nation Regularly chuse a Representative Body of the most Noble Prudent Interested Members to discern their dangers and the Remedies and preserve their Liberties and Safety the People t●emselves are to discern These Dangers and Remedies by THEIR eyes Thes. 356. And I think it was time for us to believe a Parliament concerning our Danger and Theirs when we heard so many Impious persons rage against them Pa. 472. the Irish professing to raise Arms for the King to defend his Prerogative and their own Religion against the Parliament I say in such a time as This we had Reason to believe our entrusted Watchmen that told us of the danger and no Reason to suffer our Lives and Libertyes to be taken out of their Trust and wholly put into the hands of the King We had rather of the two be put upon the Inconvenience of Justifying our Defence then to have been Butcher'd by Thousands and fall into such hands as Ireland did Pa. 473. But all the Wars that have been since the Opposition to the Parliament and Violence done to the Person of the King were far from being own'd by the Common Sort of the Now Non-Conformists c. Non-Conf Plea Pa. 138. Ri. You were saying a while agoe as I remember that a Parliament that destroys Fundamentals is an Enemy to the Common-Wealth and the People ought to oppose them Pray'e Say 〈◊〉 not the Freedome and Right of the Electors as much a Fundamental as the Priviledge and Trust of the Elected How comes it then that you propound the Reducing of Elections to the Faithf●●l honest Upright men c. Pref. to the Ho. Com. Ba. Let me speak afterwards of the Necessity and of the Utility of This Cause 1. It is known that Parliaments quà Tales are not Divine Religious Protestant or Just. The Six Articles by which the Martyrs were burnt were made by a Parliament All the Laws for the Papal Interests in the days of Popery have been made by them They have often Followed the Wills of Princes to and fro and therefore they are not Indefectible nor Immutable as such Ho. Com. Pa. 243. Mo. Very right and all the late Orders and Ordinances 〈◊〉 Sequestring Crown and Church-Revenues Commitments Plunders Decimations and the like were made by that which you call a Parliament But see now in what a Condition Th●t people must be that sees with the Parliaments Eyes in ca●● of such Parliaments as you suppose and the Remedy you prescribe is worse then the disease for take away the Freedome of Choyce and the Persons Chosen are a Faction rather then a Parliament Ba. 2. It is known that there are Mambers of Vario●● minds in them all and sometime the miscarrying Party is so strong that by a few more voices they might brsng Misery o● the Common-wealth Ibid. Mo. This we have found in severall cases upon Experiment to the Ruine of three Kingdomes Ba. 3. It is well known that in most parts the Majo●-Vote of the Vulgar that are Chusers are Ignorant selfish of Private Spirits ruled by mony and therefore by their Landlords and other Great and Powerful men and withall they are bitterly distasted against the Serious diligent Practice of Religion according to the Rules of Christ. Ibid. 4. It is therefore apparent that if they had their Liberty They would chuse such as are of their minds and it was by Providence and Accident that heretofore they did not so Ibid. Mo. Here 's a Compendious Model Mr. Baxter of your Project for the due Regulation of the Electours and Elections of Parliament Thes. 211. First you propound to take away from the People of England their Ancient and Undoubted Right of Chusing their own Representatives 2. to Unqualify all the Nobility Gentry and Commonalty of the Land that are Well Affected to the Government of Church and State And 3ly To Pack a Faction under the name of a Parliament of your own Leaven Or if that will not doe 't is but employing the Rabble again to give the House a swinging Purge and you are at your Journeys End Proceed Ba. 5. It is certain that the Wars the Change of Church-Government and Forms of Worship the Differences of Religious men and the many Sects that have lately risen up among us and the strict Laws of Parliament about the Lords day c. and Specially their Taxes have deeply discontented them and exasperated them against such as they think have caused these so that many would now purposely design Their Ruine Ibid. In fine Without Regulating Elections what Probability is there but the next that is chosen by a Majority of Votes with absolute Freedom will undoe all that hath been done and be revenged to the full on all that were so odious to them and Settle our Calamity by a Law Mo. This is a more Candid Account Mr. Baxter then you Intended it For the People may well be allow'd to have Cursed the Authours of those bloudy Broyles The Prophaning of our Temples The suppressing of our Church-Government and Liturgy the Propagating of so many Sects and Schisms and bringing the Nation to Grone under Their Taxes like the Asse under the Burthen But how is That the Peoples Representative that Shuts the people out of the Election and acts both Without and Against their Consent The Tenth part of this encroachment upon the Common Liberty from the King would have been Cry'd out against as Arbitrary And Tyrannicall But what way would you direct for the Limiting of the Qualifications ba. Let all Pastors in England that are Approved have an
Instrument of Approbation and all that are Tolerated an Instrument of Toleration and let no man be a chuser or a Ruler that holdeth not Communion with an Approved or Tolerated Church and is not signify'd under the Pastors hand to be a Member thereof Thes. 219. Mo. A most excellent Invention to advance the Empire of Presbytery and enslave all other degrees and Perswasions of men whatsoever Ba. The Humble Petition and Advice determineth that under the Penalty of a Thousand pounds and Imprisonment till it be paid no person be Elected and sit in Parliament but Such as are persons of known Integrity fear God and of Good Conversation They are sworn also for Fidelity to the Protector c. A more excellent Act hath not been made for the happynesse of England concerning Parliaments at least since the Reformation Ho. Com. 257.258 Mo. But what is it that you mean by this Known Integrity or who are to be the Iudges of it I take That man that Publickly Sacrifices his Life his Fortune his Family and his Freedome to the service of his Prince and Countrey according to the Law to be a man of Known Integrity and him that Acts in opposition to the Law and to his duty to be clearly the contrary I take the Publican that smites his breast and crys Lord be merciful unto me a sinner to have more of the Fear of God in him then the Pharisee that Prays in the Market Place and thanks God that he is not as Other men are And I take him to be of as Good a Conversation that submits quietly to the Rules of the Government Reverences Authority and contents himself with his Lawful Lot As he is that values himself upon Out-braving Publique Order Reviling his Betters Living upon the spoil and devouring the Bread of the Oppressed What would you say now to the turning of the Tables and setting up of your Qualifications on the other side and to the Kings excluding of the Non-Conformists by an Oath of Fidelity to himself as your Richard excluded delinquents in the late Eections Ho. Com. P. 244. So that the People durst not go according otheir Inclinations Ibid. But why do I argue from your Practises when your Positions do naturally leade to the same undutyfull Ends Ba. My dull Brain could never find out any one point of difference in Theology about the Power of Kings and the Duty of Obedience in the People between the Divines called Presbyterians and Episcopal If you know any name them me and tell me your Proofs R. B's Letter to Mr. Hinckly Pa. 26. Ri. 'T is a Confounding of your Metaphysicks methinks with your Politiques to talk of Points of Theology in matters of Civil Power and Obedience without distinguishing between our Credenda and Agenda Notion and Practice Supernaturall Truths and Moral Duties And why The Divines CALLED Presbyterians and not rather the Presbyterian Divines For they are not ALL Presbyterians that are so CALLED and there 's a great deal of difference betwixt the Principles of Presbyterian Divines as Presbyterian and the 〈◊〉 of those very Presbyterians as they are range● und●r ●he B●nner of a Civil Interest But over and above all Thi● you have carry'd it a great deal ●oo far to say that the Episcopal and the Presbyterian Divines hold the same Principles in the Point of King and Subject You sh●uld rather have acknowledg'd the disagreements and maintain'd the P●i●ciple We hold 1. Th●t the Parliament by the Constitution have part of the Sovere●●●t● Ho. Com. Pa. 457. 2. That the Sovereignty is joyntly i● K●●g Lords and Commons as Three Estates 465. 3. The Parlia●ent have a Power of Enacting Laws as well as of ●roposing them Pa. 462. Whereas The Episcopal Party prono●●ce the Sovereignty to be only in the King 2. They assert the Kings sole Supremacy in all Causes and over all Persons whatsoever as well Ecclesiastical as Civill and 3. That the two Houses have no share at all in the Sanction We hold likewise that It was Treason to resist the Parliament as the Enemy did apparently in Order to their Subversion Ho. Com. 478. That the Parliament was the highest Interpreter of Laws that was then Existent in the Division Ibid. And so we find that every step of the Parliamentary War was Iustify'd by the Assembly and the whole Current of the Presbyterian-Divines The Episcopal Clergy Vnanimously declaring themselves to the contrary Who but the Assembly July 19. 43. in the Names of Themselves and Others to call for the Execution of Iustice on All delinquents Husband 2d Vol. of Collections 241. And who again Aug. 10. 1643. but The Divines of the Assembly that are Re●iants of the Associated Counties and now Attending the Assembly are desired to go down into their several Counties to stir up the people in Those severall Counties to rise for their Defence Ibid. 285. So that in the Main we differ upon the very Constitution of the Government the Power of the Prince the Duty of the Subject and upon every point of the Parliamentary War And we are no lesse divided upon the Scheme of Forms and Ceremonies Ba. Prove that I or any of my Acquaintance ever practised Ejecting Silencing ruining men for things Unnecessary yea or for Greater things Whom did we ever forbid to Preach the Truth Whom did we cast out of all Church-Maintenance Whom did we Imprison R. R's Answ. to Dr. Stillingfleet Pa. 97. Ri. You forget your self Brother and I am for speaking the Truth though I shame the Devill Pray look into Mercurius Rusticus his Accompt of the London Clergy that were Ejected Silenced and Ruin'd by Order of Parliament See his Querela Cantabrigiensis for the Heads Fellows and Students of Colledges that were There Ejected Plunder'd Imprison'd or Banish'd for their Affections to the King and the Establish'd Religion Consider th●● You your self took the liberty to Graze upon another mans Past●re And all these Violence were carry'd on by your Encouragement Influenced by your Approbation and the Principal directors of the● extold to the Skyes as the Best Governours for Wisdome a●d Holynesse Ho. Com. Pref. under the Cope of Heaven Ba. But however Either they must prove that we hold Rebellious Principles or they shew that they do but in Plot accuse us I know very well that The Transproser Rehearsed Pa. 48. saith Mr. Baxter in his Holy Common-wealth mayntainteth that he the King may be called to Account by any Single Peer Must we say nothing to such bloudly slanders Never such a Thought was in my mind nor word spoken or Written by me But all is a meer False-Fiction Nay in all the times of Usurpation and Since I said and Wrote that the Kings Person is Inviolable and to be Judg'd by none either Peer or Parliament and that it is none but Subjects that they may call to accompt and Judge and Punish and