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A83819
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The report made to the honourable House of Commons, Decemb. 15. 1699. By the commissioners appointed to enquire into the forfeited estates of Ireland
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Ireland. Commissioners appointed to enquire into the Forfeited Estates.
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Wing E2704AC; ESTC R200771
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the 13th of February 1688. When that was said there was another of the Commissioners that did say I was always of opinion that this was a Forfeiture within the Act because tho King James had not forfeited before yet he coming into Ireland on March 15. 1688. he committed Treason against King William and Queen Mary and forfeited that Estate It was then objected that this private Estate of the late King was parcel of the Possessions of the Crown of England and was vested in him as parcel of the Crown of England and the Crown being vested in K. William and Queen Mary by an Act of Parliament made in this Kingdom which settled the Crown in K. William and Q. Mary the Crown and all the Possessions were vested in them Feb. 13. 1688. so that that Estate being actually in his Majesty then and tho otherwise it might have been conceived that K. James had forfeited afterwards tho not then attainted it could not be conceived how he could forfeit that Estate because it was before in the King and Queen And the same Gentleman that urged that upon the 15th of March King James landed in Ireland and committed Treason pleased to say I don't dislike the 30th of January nor the Deed that was done that Day I like both the Day and the Deed. I confess I was surprized at it and said if those be your Reasons and this is your Agreement I declare I will never join in it One of the Commissioners at this time was absent but the next day that Gentleman was brought into the Room with the other Commissioners and then this was debated again and upon that Debate much of that matter was spoke over again not that relating to the 30th of January but then it was again urged that that Estate might be said to be forfeited and the same Objections were repeated and it seemed to be assented to by the other Commissioners that it was not strictly a Forfeiture and some of them said it might not be within the Commission then it was asked Why then will you report it And one of the Gentlemen did answer that it was a villanous Grant and therefore fit to be exposed I did not write down the words at that time because I had then no intention of making any complaint or publishing these matters But since they have cut off our Hands and Seals from the Report it made us think it necessary to do what we have done And it being said by a Commissioner not here but in Ireland If we take it not to be within our Commission why will you do it why will you report it for it will fly in the King's Face To which another answered Why the Commission flys in the King's Face if you won't fly in his Face you can't execute this Commission or you must not execute it one of them two Upon this it was further urged That this matter should be reported and one of the Commissioners said Tho it was not clearly within the Act yet he had received several Letters from several Members of this House to report this matter and he said it was as good or contained in the Letter that it was as good do nothing as not to report it There was upon this an expression by one of the Commissioners that a great Person was concerned That was my Lady Ork-y and the application of that was that if he was so tender of that Person we should not join with them in any thing else For Sir the Debate was grown to this pass whether if we did not join in this thing we should join in any thing else This I think is the substance of what I told that worthy Member if I am asked as to any other Person I shall give you a true Account Mr. Speaker I am commanded to ask you who was by upon this discourse between you and the rest of the Commissioners concerning the differences in opinion and how many and particularly at that time that one of the Commissioners did say that he thought that since it was not in your Commission to report that Grant it would be a flying in the King's Face c. Sir R. Leving It was the day that the Commissioner that was sick first came to us I believe about the 24th of October last There was present at that time the Lord Dr-gh-da Sir Francis Brewster Mr. Annesly Mr. Trenchard Mr. Hamilton Mr. Langford the Secretary and my self all were in the room when this was said Mr. Speaker Who was it said it was a flying in the King's Face and who made answer that the Commission did fly in the King's Face Sir R. Leving It was my Lord Dr-gh-da said the first part and Mr. Hamilton was the Person that said the other Mr. Speaker Who said that concerning the 30th of January that it was a good Day and a good Deed Sir R. Leving That was the day before the other Discourse was there was all but Mr. Trenchard who was sick and came next day Mr. Speaker Who said it and upon what occasion Sir R. Leving It was not a particular direction to any person as I remember but it was spoke by way of Answer it was told Mr. Langford when he came in the Objection that was made against this being returned as a Forfeiture c. And then he said I was always of opinion that this was a Forfeiture and that Kings might forfeit as well as others and he thereupon said he did not dislike the 30th of January Mr. Speaker You mentioned that some of the Commissioners said they received Letters from Members of Parliament to insert this Grant into the Report Please to repeat who had them and from whom Sir R. Leving The first time I heard mention of any such Letter was the first night After we rose we went to Mr. Trenchard's Chamber who was sick to consult for this Debate occasioned some concern in our minds and we did apprehend some breach amongst us and went to his Chamber to see if we could come to an accommodation and offered Mr. Trenchard and the rest of the Gentlemen present That if they would take the whole Report without the private Estate and sign it we could join with them and if they would put in an Article of the private Estate they might sign it by themselves for we thought if we could not agree to it we would be no hindrance to them if they thought fit to do it and then Mr. Trenchard said he had Letters from several Members to report this private Estate and that it would signify nothing if we did not report it Mr. Speaker Did he say that from himself or that it was in any Letter Sir R. Leving I do not say that positively he shew'd me no Letter Mr. Speaker Did he name any Member Sir R. Leving I do not remember that he named any Member Mr. Speaker Who was present at that time in Mr. Trenchard's Chamber Sir R. Leving Most of those Gentlemen I have
Life and almost all the old Leases determine in May 1701 and then the Estate will answer the values above-mentioned All which with the utmost deference we humbly submit to your Honours Dublin Signed Fra. Annesley John Trenchard Ja. Hamilton Hen. Langford FINIS To Francis Annesly John Trenchard James Hamilton and Henry Langford Esquires Commissioners with us in the Execution of so much of a late Act of Parliaament made in England as relates to the Enquiring into and taking an Account of the forfeited Estates of Ireland The Memorial of Henry Earl of Dr-gh-da Sir Francis Brewster and Sir Richard Leving Knights Gentlemen WE having jointly acted with you in the Execution of the Power to us given by a late Act of Parliament made in England unto this present day and having Signed and Sealed three Books of Outlawries N. 1. three Books of Forfeitures N. 2. and also three Books of Adjudications at the Council Board N. 3. and three Books of Adjudications at the Court of Claims N. 4. and three Books of Pardons and Reversals N. 5. and three Books of Grants N. 6. and three Books of Incumbrances N. 7. and three Books of Debts due to forfeiting Persons not restored N. 8. which we conceive contain the Substance of the Account required from us by the said Act and our Secretary having drawn up the Report by the immediate Directions and Privity of some of you We have been present at the first and second Reading thereof and have delivered our Sentiments concerning the several Paragraphs thereof which in all amount to the number of ninety or thereabouts after having done our utmost Endeavors to satisfy You and our Selves and to come to a perfect Agreement with you for the publick Good on the 28th day of this instant November three Parts or Books of the said Report were prepared read and compared and contain amongst other things the Paragraph concerning the private Estate of the late K. James which we have before affirmed in our Opinions was not any forfeited Estate within the meaning of the said Act and the said Paragraph was much altered from what it was on the 24th day of October last or at any time after till the 23d day of this instant November at which time it appear'd that mention is therein made of forfeited Leases which are Granted together with the said Estate tho neither the continuances of such Leases nor the value of them above the reserved Rent nor other certainty of the said Leases does appear to us We have declared and do declare that whenever the aforesaid Matters shall appear we will join in the Reporting of whatever is a Forfeiture within the meaning of the said Act Whereupon you were told by Henry Earl of Dr-gh-da that we could not give an Account to the last Paragraph containing the said private Estate nor to Paragraphs 8 10 25 32 66 78 79. But that we would agree to all the said Report except the abovementioned Paragraphs Which you Gentlemen opposing the said Earl did enter on one of the Books or parts of the Report addressed to the Honourable the House of Commons a writing to the Effect following We agree to all the above Report except the 8 10 25 32 66 78 79 Paragraphs to which we cannot Assent for reasons which we will be ready to lay before your Honours when we shall be thereunto required which being written we Signed and Sealed the same and pray you to join with us therein or to subscribe your Names above the said writing thereby testifying your Assent to all the Paragraphs in the said Report But you Gentlemen insisting upon your Majority of four to three have not only refused to sign the said Book addressed to the House of Commons but have taken the other Books containing the said Report and addressed to his Majesty and the House of Peers from us and will not suffer us to join with you in such manner as will as we conceive both answer the ends of the said Act and satisfy our Minds in matters which we are to Certify upon our Oaths And when you propounded to us to make a separate Report which we thought no way convenient for the Service you yet were not willing to let us have Copies either of that we had agreed to or dissented from We therefore pray you as well in consideration of the Publick Trust reposed in us all as of preserving a good Correspondence amongst us that you will not be any hindrance to our Writing and Subscribing and Sealing on the other Books and Parts of the Report addressed to his Majesty and the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in such manner as we have done on the Book address'd to the Honourable the House of Commons we leaving you sufficient space above such Writing of ours to Subscribe and Seal the whole Report which if it be not done already we will Consent to make such Alterations as to make that feasible And we do insist and in virtue of the aforesaid Act of Parliament pray and caution you that you do not obliterate cancel or otherwise deface what we have as we believe solemnly Signed Sealed and delivered as aforesaid pursuant to the said Act but that the same without Alteration be laid before the Honourable House of Commons And we do likewise make instance to you that we may be ordered and not hindered from having Copies of the Paragraphs we have agreed to but more especially and speedily those to which we cannot agree to the end we may not be hindred by you from laying before his Majesty and the two Houses of Parliament the reasons why we cannot give our Assent to the said 8 Paragraphs We also put you in mind of the several Instances we have made to you of comparing at our Board the original Depositions taken before us with the Entry thereof in our Book and signing such Book by us after due comparing which we think extreamly necessary to be done because the original Depositions appear too much blotted and interlined and are thereby capable of great Alterations which may tend to the discredit of our Proceedings And lastly we pray you and insist that this our Memorial be kept ready to be produced amongst the Papers and Proceedings of our Commission Given and delivered unto you under our Hands and Seals this 29th day of November 1699. A Copy of a Letter to the Lord Ch-nc-ll-r of England And the like Letter being sent to the Speaker of the House of Commons the House would not hear it read as not Signed by a Quorum of the Commissioners sent Our very good Lord WE having been appointed Commissioners with four others for executing so much of the late Act of Parliament made in England as relates to the forfeited Estates of Ireland and having acted jointly with them therein to the Expiration of the Time limited by that Act and from that time attended the putting in order and perfecting the matters of our Enquiry unto this present day and having