France against King Henry the Fourth wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse money when they want it but the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to Invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the Eighth so utterly extinguished the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First The Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their Power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their lives which the Gentry and men of good education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common people which for a long time had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly The Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly The Revenue of the Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings hands and by him being disposed of to the most eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a nature quick and severe in the Punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his designs Lastly As to Invasion from abroad if the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre besides the French and Spanish Forces were imployed at that time one against another and though they had been at leasure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniard found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisy of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was among other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterwards did read it being perhaps written in Shorthand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope's and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his Anger there was besides a Controversy in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church and because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let the Act of Parliament pass in the reign of King Edward the Sixth the Doctrine of Luther had taken such great root in England that they threw out a great many of the Pope's new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by King Henry the Eighth saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward and so it had continued to this day excepting the interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democraâ—ical men But thus the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesom to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean upon the Gunpowder Treason and upon that account the Papists in England have been looked upon as men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Pope's Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plesis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Pope's Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the world And I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendom never perceived it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner but if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the Eighth did Head of the Church within their own respective dominions but not agreeing they let his Power continue every one hopeing to make use of it when there should be cause against his neighbour B. Now as to the other Distemper by Presbyterians How came their Power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and Reformed Churches could not chuse but make every man to the best of his Power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas beâ—â—â— the Translation of them was not allowed nor any man to read them but such as had express Licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to
design'd to set up a Tyrannical Power and to that end had rais'd and maintain'd in the Land a Civil War against the Parliament whereby the Country hath been miserably wasted the Publick Treasure exhausted thousands of people murdered and infinite other mischiefs committed Secondly A Constitution passed of a High Court of Justice that is of a certain number of Commissioners of whom any twenty had power to try the King and proceed to Sentence according to the Merit of the Cause and see it speedily executed The Commissioners met on Saturday January 20. in Westminster-Hall and the King was brought before them sitting in a Chair He heard the Charge read but denied to plead to it either Guilty or not Guilty till he should know by what lawful Authority he was brought thither The President told him that the Parliament affirm'd their own Authority and the King persevered in his refusal to plead though many words passed between him and the President yet this is the sum of all on Monday January 22. the Court met again and the Sollicitor moved that if the King persisted in denying the Authority of the Court the Charge might be taken pro confesso but the King still denied their Authority They met again January 23. and then the Sollicitor moved the Court for Judgment whereupon the King was requir'd to give his Final Answer which was again a denial of their Authority Lastly They met again January 27. where the King then desir'd to be heard before the Lords and Commons in the Painted Chamber and promising after that to abide the Judgment of the Court the Commissioners retir'd for half an hour to consider of it and then returning caused the King again to be brought to the Bar and told him that what he propos'd was but another denial of the Courts Jurisdiction and that if he had no more to say they would proceed to Judgment Then the King answering that he had no more to say the President began a long Speech in justification of the Parliaments proceedings producing the Examples of many Kings kill'd or depos'd by wicked Parliaments Ancient and Modern in England Scotland and other parts of the World All which he endeavour'd to justifie from this only Principle that the People have the Supreme Power and the Parliament is the People This Speech ended the Sentence of Death was read and the same upon Tuesday after January the 30. executed at the Gate of his own Palace of White-Hall He that can delight in reading how villanously he was used by the Souldiers between the Sentence and Execution may go to the Chronicle it self in which he shall see what courage patience wisdom and goodness was in this Prince whom in their Charge the Members of that wicked Parliament stil'd Traytor Tyrant and Murderer The King being dead the same day they made an Act of Parliament That whereas several pretences might be made to the Crown c. it is Enacted by this present Parliament and Authority of the same that no Person shall presume to declare proclaim or publish or any way promote Charles Stuart Son of Charles late King of England commonly called Prince of Wales or any other Person to be King of England and Ireland c. B. Seeing the King was dead and his Successors barr'd by what declar'd Authority was the Peace maintained A. They had in their anger against the Lords formerly declar'd the Supreme Power of the Nation to be in the House of Commons and now on February the fifth they Vote the House of Lords to be useless and dangerous And thus the Kingdom was turn'd into a Democracy or rather an Oligarchy for presently they made an Act That none of those Members who were secluded for opposing the Vote of Non-Addresses should ever be re-admitted And these were commonly called the Secluded Members and the rest were by some stiled a Parliament and by others a Rump I think you need not now have a Catalogue either of the Vices or of the Crimes or of the Follies of the greatest part of them that composed the Long-Parliament than which greater cannot be in the World What greater Vices than Irreligion Hypocrisie Avarice and Cruelty which have appear'd so eminently in the actions of Presbyterian Members and Presbyterian Ministers What greater Crimes than Blasphemy and killing Gods Anointed which was done by the hands of the Independents but by the folly and first Treason of the Presbyterians who betrayed and sold him to his Murderers Nor was it a little folly in the Lords not to see that by the taking away of the Kings Power they lost withall their own Priviledges or to think themselves either for number or judgment any way a considerable assistance to the House of Commons And for those men who had skill in the Laws it was no great sign of understanding not to perceive that the Laws of the Land were made by the King to oblige his Subjects to Peace and Justice and not to oblige himself that made them Lastly and generally all men are Fools which pull down any thing which does them good before they have set up something better in its place He that would set up Democracy with an Army should have an Army to maintain it but these men did it when those men had the Army that were resolv'd to pull it down To these follies I might add the follies of those five men which out of their reading of Tully Seneca and other Antimonarchicks think themselves sufficient Politicks and shew their discontents when they are not called to the management of the State and turn from one side to the other upon every neglect they fancy from the King or his Enemies A. YOU have seen the Rump in possession as they believ'd of the Supreme Power over the two Nations of England and Ireland and the Army their Servant though Cromwel thought otherwise serving them diligently for the advancement of his own purpose I am now therefore to shew you their proceedings B. Tell me first how this kind of Government under the Rump or Relick of a House of Commons is to be call'd A. 'T is doubtless an Oligarchy for the Supreme Authority must needs be in one man or in in more if in one it is Monarchy the Rump therefore was no Monarchy if the Authority were in more than one it was in all or in fewer than all when in all it is Democracy for every man may enter into the Assembly which makes the Soveraign Court which they could not do here It is therefore manifest the Authority was in a few and consequently the State was an Oligarchy B. It is not impossible for a people to be well govern'd that are to obey more Masters than one A. Both the Rump and all other Soveraign Assemblies if they have but one voice though they be many men yet are they but one Person for contrary Commands cannot consist in one and the same voice which is the voice of the greatest part and
an Independent in England in Answer to it B. I have seen them both they are very good Latine both and hardly to be judged which is better and both very ill reasoning and hardly to be judged which is worst like two Declamations Pro and Con for exercise only in a Rhetorick School by one and the same man so like is a Presbyterian to an Independent A. In this year the Rump did not much at home save that in the beginning they made England a Free State by an Act which runs thus Be it Enacted and Declared by this present Parliament and by to Authority thereof That the People of England and all the Dominions and Territories thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted made and declared a Common-wealth and Free State c. B. What did they mean by a Free State and Common-wealth were the people no longer to be subject to Laws They could not mean that for the Parliament meant to Govern them by their own Laws and punish such as broke them Did they mean that England should not be subject to any foreign Kingdom or Common-wealth That needed not be Enacted seeing there was no King nor People pretended to be their Masters What did they mean then A. They meant that neither this King nor any King nor any single person but only that they themselves would be the Peoples Masters and would have set it down in those plain words if the people could have been cozen'd with words intelligible as easily as with words not intelligible After this they gave one another Money and Estates out of the Lands and Goods of the Loyal Party They Enacted also an Engagement to be taken by every man in these words You shall promise to be true and faithful to the Common-wealth of England as it is now established without King or House of Lords They banished also from within 20 Miles of London all the loyal Party forbidding every one of them to depart more than five Miles from his dwelling-house B. They meant perhaps to have them ready if need were for a Massacre But what did the Scots in this time A. They were considering of the Officers of the Army which they were levying for the King how they might exclude from Command all such as had loyally serv'd his now Majesty's Father and all Independents and all such as commanded in Duke Hamilton's Army And these were the main things that passed this year The Marquess of Montross that had in the year 1645. with a few men and in a little time done things almost incredible against the late King's Enemies in Scotland landed now again in the beginning of the Year 1650. in the North of Scotland with Commission from the present King hoping to do him as good service as he had formerly done his Father but the case was alter'd for the Scotch Forces were then in England in the service of the Parliament whereas now they were in Scotland and many more for their intended Invasion newly rais'd Besides the Souldiers which the Marquess brought over were few and Forreigners nor did the High-landers come in to him as he expected insomuch as he was soon defeated and shortly after taken and with more spiteful usage than revenge requir'd Executed by the Covenanters at Edinborough May the 2d B. What good could the King expect from joyning with these men who during the Treaty discover'd so much malice to him in one of his best Subjects A. No doubt their Church-men being then prevalent they would have done as much to this King as the English Parliament had done to his Father if they could have gotten by it that which they foolishly aspir'd to the Government of the Nation I do not believe that the Independents were worse than the Presbyterians both the one and the other were resolv'd to destroy whatsoever should stand in the way to their Ambition but necessity made the King pass over both this and many other Indignities from them rather than suffer the pursuit of his Right in England to cool and be little better than extinguished B. Indeed I believe the Kingdom if suffered to become an old Debt will hardly ever be recover'd Besides the King was sure where ever the Victory lighted he could lose nothing in the War but Enemies A. About the time of Montrosses death which was in May Cromwel was yet in Ireland and his work unfinished but finding or by his Friends advertis'd that his presence in the Expedition now preparing against the Scots would be necessary to his Design sent to the Rump to know their pleasure concerning his return But for all that he knew or thought it was not necessary to stay for their Answer but came away and arriv'd at London the sixth of June following and was welcom'd by the Rump Now had General Fairfax who was truly what he pretended to be a Presbyterian been so Catechis'd by the Presbyterian Ministers here that he refus'd to fight against the Brethren in Scotland nor did the Rump nor Cromwel go about to rectifie his Conscience in that point And thus Fairfax laying down his Commission Cromwel was now made General of all the Forces in England and Ireland which was another step to the Soveraign Power B. Where was the King A. In Scotland newly come over he landed in the North and was honourably conducted to Edinborough though all things was not yet well agreed upon between the Scots and him for he had yielded to as hard Conditions as the late King had yielded to in the Isle of Wight yet they had still somewhat to add till the King enduring no more departed from them towards the North again But they sent Messengers after him to pray him to return but they furnished these Messengers with strength enough to bring him back if he should have refus'd In fine they agreed but would not suffer the King or any Royalist to have Command in the Army B. The sum of all is the King was their Prisoner A. Cromwel from Berwick sends a Declaration to the Scots telling them he had no Quarrel against the people of Scotland but against the Malignant Party that had brought in the King to the disturbance of the Peace between the two Nations and that he was willing by Conference to give and receive satisfaction or to decide the Justice of the Cause by Battel To which the Scots answering declare That they will not prosecute the Kings Interest before and without his acknowledgment of the sins of his House and his former ways and satisfaction given to Gods people in both Kingdoms Judge by this whether the present King were not in as bad a condition here as his Father was in the hands of the Presbyterians of England B. Presbyterians are every where the same they would fain be absolute Governours of all they converse with and have nothing to plead for it but that where they reign 't is God that reigns and no where else But I observe one strange
might do something that might look like Hostility It hapned in the year 1637. that the King by the advice as it is thought of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury sent down a Book of Common Prayer into Scotland not differing in substance from ours nor much in words besides the putting of the word Presbyter for that of Minister commanding it to be used for Conformity to this Kingdom by the ministers there for an ordinary form of Divine Service this being read out the Church at Edinburgh caused such a Tumult there that he that read it had much adoe to escape with his life and gave occasion to the greatest part of the Nobility and others to enter by their own Authority into a Covenant amongst themselves to put down Episcopacy without consulting the King which they presently did animated thereto by their own Confidence or by assurance from some of the Democratical English men that in former Parliaments had been the greatest opposers of the King's interest that the King would not be able to raise an Army to chastise them without calling a Parliament which would be sure to favour them for the thing which those Democraticals chiefly then aimed at was to force the King to call a Parliament which he had not done of ten years before as having found no help but hinderance to his designs in the Parliaments he had formerly called Howsoever contrary to their expectation by the help of his better affected Subjects of the Nobility and Gentry he made a shift to raise a sufficient Army to have reduced the Scots to their former obedience if it had proceeded to Battle And with this Army he marched himself into Scotland where the Scotch Army was also brought into the Field against him as if they meant to fight but then the Scotch sent to the King for leave to treat by Commissioners on both sides and the King willing to avoid the destruction of his own Subjects condescended to it the issue was Peace and the King thereupon went to Edinburgh and passed an Act of Parliament there to their Satisfaction B. Did he not then confirm Episcopacy A. No but yielded to the abolishing of it but by the means the English were crossed in their hope of a Parliament but the Democraticals formerly opposers of the King's Interest ceased not to endeavour still to put the two Nations into a War to the end the King might buy the Parliament's help at no less a price than Soveraignty it self B. But what was the Cause that the Gentry and Nobility of Scotland were so averse from Episcopacy For I can hardly believe that their Consciences were extraordinarily tender nor that they were so very great Divines as to know what was the true Church Discipline established by our Saviour and his Apostles nor yet so much in love with their Ministers as to be over-ruled by them in the Government either Ecclesiastical or Civil for in their lives they were just as other men are Pursuers of their own Interests and Preferments wherein they were not more opposed by the Bishops than by their Presbyterian Ministers A. Truly I do not know I cannot enter into other mens thoughts farther than I am lead by the consideration of Human Nature in general But upon this consideration I see First That men of antient Wealth and Nobility are not apt to brook that poor Schollars should as they must when they are made Bishops be their Fellows Secondly That from the emulation of Glory between the Nations they be willing to see their Nation afflicted with Civil War and might hope by aiding the Rebels here to acquire some Power over the English at least so far as to establish here the Presbyterian Discipline which was also one of the points they afterwards openly demanded Lastly They might hope for in the War some great sum of money as a reward of their assistance besides great Booty which they afterwards obtained but whatsoever was the cause of their hatred to Bishops the pulling of them down was not all they aimed at if it had now that Episcopacy was abolished by Act of Parliament they would have rested satisfied which they did not for after the King was returned to London the English Presbyterians and Democraticals by whose favour they had put down Bishops in Scotland thought it reason to have the assistance of the Scotch for the pulling down of Bishops in England and in order thereunto they might perhaps deal with the Scots secretly to rest unsatisfied with that pacification which they were before contented with howsoever it was not long after the King was returned to London they sent up to some of their friends at Court a certain Paper containing as they pretended the Articles of the said Pacification a false and Scandalous Paper which was by the King's Command burnt as I have heard publickly and so both parts returned to the same Condition as they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose but you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in Person he that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a man that wanted not either Valour oâ— Judgement but to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his Power but in the King 's B. He was a man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Countrey and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had Fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of Superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in the like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that Conquered Carthage by the Valor and Conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio a man Valiant and Wise enough but he perished in the imployment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is but a foolish Superstition to hope that God has entailed success in War upon a Name or Family B. After the Pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there but all was to no purpose and to use all the means he could otherwise but the Scots were resolved to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Councellors they could
not otherwise obtain their right but the truth is they were otherwise animated to it by the Democratical and Presbyterian English with a promise of Reward and hope of Plunder some have said that Duke Hamilton also did rather encourage them to than deterr them from the Expedition as hoping by hâ— disorder of the two Kingdoms to bring to pass that which he had formerly been accused to endeavour to make himself King of Scotland but I take this to have been a very uncharitable Censure upon so little ground to judge so hardly of a man that afterwards lost his life in seeking to procure the liberty of the King his Master This resolution of the Scots to enter into England being known the King wanting Money to raise an Army against them was now as his Enemies here wished constrained to call a Parliament to meet at Westminster the 13 of April 1640. B. Methinks a Parliament oâ— England if upon any occasion should furnish the King with Money now in a War against the Scots out of an inveteterate Disaffection to that Nation that had always taken part with their Enemies the French and which alwayes esteemed the Glory of England for an abatement of their own A. 'T is indeed commonly seen that Neighbour Nations envy one anothers Honour and that the less potent bears the greater malice but that hinders them not from agreeing in those things which their common ambition leads them to And therefore the King found for the War but the less help from this Parliament and most of the Members thereof in their ordinary discourses seemed to wonder why the King should make a War upon Scotland and in that Parliament sometime called them their Brethren the Scots but instead of taking the King's business which was the raising of Money into their consideration they fell upon the redressing of grievances and especially such way of levying money as in the last intermission of Parliament the King had been forced to use such as were Ship money for Knighthood and such other Vails as one may call them of the Regal Office which Lawyers had found justifiable by the antient Records of the Kingdom besides they fell upon the Actions of divers Ministers of State though done by the Kings own Command and Warrant insomuch that before they were called the Money which was necessary for this War if they had given Money as they never meant to do had come too late it is true there was mention of a sum of Money to be given the King by way of Bargain for relinquishing his Right to Ship-money and some other of his Prerogatives but so seldom and without determining any Sum that it was in vain for the King to hope for any success and therefore on the Fifth of May following he disolved them B. Where then had the King Money to raise and pay his Army A. He was forced the second time to make use of the Nobility and Gentry who contributed some more some less according to the greatness of their Estates but amongst them all they made up a very sufficient Army B. It seems then that the same Men that crossed his business in the Parliament now out of Parliament advanced it all they could what was the reason of that A. The greatest part of the Lords in Parliament and the Gentry throughout England were more affected to Monarchy than to a Popular Government but so as not to endure to hear of the King 's absolute Power which made them in time of Parliament easily to condescend to abridge it and bring the Government to a mixt Monarchy as they called it wherein the absolute Sovereignty should be divided between the King the House of Lords and the House of Commons B. But how if they cannot agree A. I think they never thought of that but I am sure they never meant the Soveraignty should be wholly either in one or both Houses besides they were loath to desert the King when he was Invaded by Forreiners for the Scots were esteemed by them as a Forrein Nation B. It is strange to me that England and Scotland being but one Island and their Language almost the same being Governed by one King should be thought Forreiners to one another the Romans were Masters of many Nations and to oblige them the more to obey the Edicts of the Law sent unto them by the City of Rome they thought fit to make them all Romans and out of divers Nations as Spain Germany Italy and France to advance some that they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the Common People the Priviledge of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the Contumelies of other Nations where they resided why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united unto one People A. King James at his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail but for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all Naturaliz'd and have right to buy Land in England to them and their Heirs B. 'T is true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James And was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A. I understand not the subtilty of the Distinction but upon what Law is that distinction grounded Is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little Equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal Priviledges and now seeing there be so very few born before King James's comeing in What greater Priviledges had those Ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch B. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is required to the Law there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions Yet they are all equally Natural Subjects to the King of France and therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Forreiners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scotch Army was drawn up to the Frontiers and ready to march into England which
also they presently did giving out all the way that their march should be without damage to the Country and that their Errand was onely to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had received from such of the Court whose Counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above Newcastle where they found some little opposition from a party of the King's Army sent thither to Stop them whom the Scots easily mastered and as soon as they were over seized upon Newcastle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon the conclusion was that all should be referred to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster the third of November following in the same year 1640. And thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No The Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintained at the King's charge and the whole Controversie to be desided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as Partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of Reverence to him in the Hearts of the People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it be believed that the King made War first upon the Parliament And besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him therefore they resolved to proceed with him like skilfull hunters First to single him out by men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open field and then in case he should not seem to turn head to call that making a War against the Parliament And first They called in question such as had either Preached or written in defence of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves whereupon some few Writers and Preachers were imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they Imprisoned some and some went beyond Sea and whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Book and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other Crimes of high Nature had therefore been censured by the Kings Council in the Star-Chamber and Imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the People would take it for their Persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at Liberty which was accordingly done with great Applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the Kings Right to Ship-mony B. Ship-mony What 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to Tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritine or not for the Building and furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaimed against it as an oppression and one of their members that had been Taxed but 20 shillings mark the Oppression a Parliament-man of 500 lb. a year Land Taxed at 20 shillings they were forced to bring it to a Trial at Law he refusing payment and he was cast again when all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their opinions concerning the legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged Legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were affrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the â—ame with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their Ground for their pretence of Immunity from Contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the Burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and Governing it upon any person whatsoever there is little Equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Soveraign not he theirs and as for the Common Law contained in Reports they have no force but what the King gives them besides it were unreasonable that a corrupt or foolish Judge's unjust Sentence should by any time how long soever obtain the authority and force of a Law but amongst the Statute Laws there is one called Magna Charta or The great Charter of the Liberties of English men in which there is one Article that no man shall be distrained that is have his Goods taken from him otherwise than by the Law of the Land B. Is not that a sufficient ground for their purpose A. No that leaves us in the same doubt which you think it clears for where was the Law of the Land then Did they mean another Magna Charta that was made by some King more antient yet No that Statute was made not to exempt any man from payments to the Publick but for securing of every man from such as abused the King's Power by surreptitious obtaining of the King's Warrants to the oppressing of those against whom he had any Suite in Law but it was conducing to the end of some rebellious Spirits in this Parliament to have it interpreted in the wrong sense and suitable enough to the understanding of the rest or most part of them to let it pass B. You make the members of that Parliament very simple men and yet the People chose them for the wisest of the Land A. If Craft be Wisedom they were wise enough but Wise as I deâ—ino it is he that knows how to bring his business to pass without the Assistance of Knavery and ignoble shifts by the sole strength of his good contrivance a Fool may win from a better Gamester by the advantage of false Dice and Packing of Cards B. According to your difinition there be few wise men now adays such Wisedome is a kind of Gallantry that few are brought up to and most think Folly fine Cloaths great Feathers Civility towards men that will not swallow Injuries and Injury towards them that will is the present Gallantry but when the Parliament afterwards having gotten the power into their hands levied money to their
every Man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like points are the study of the curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of men whom the Scriptures had taught belief in Christ love towards God obedience towards the King and sobriety of Behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the Disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scriptures to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their interpretation for the word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know more does them no good but in case any of these unnecessary Doctrines shall be Authorized by the Laws of the King or other state I say it is the duty of every Subject not to speak against them in asmuch as 't is every Mans Duty to obey him or them that have the Sovereign power and the wisdom of all such powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to sedition or disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had there breeding in the Universities for such curious questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those politick questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government and there they are furnished with arguments for liberty out of the works of Aristotle Plato Câ—cero Seâ—ica and 〈◊〉 of the Histories of 〈…〉 for their disputation against the 〈…〉 power of their 〈…〉 therefore I dispare of any 〈…〉 our selves till the 〈…〉 their studies to the 〈…〉 obedience to the Laws of the 〈…〉 to his publick Edicts under the great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid reason backt with the Authority of so many learned men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any victory can do over the Rebells but I am afraid 't is unpossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of state as is necessary for the Business seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all points for the Kings power presently after that King Henry the 8. was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are Govern'd and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferiour Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their spiritual power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by successible Imposition of hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the hands of Popes Bishops whose Authority they had cast off for though they were content that the Divine right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nounes and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most people taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergie B. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are esteemed by them very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle for them about the Interpretation of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or purses when they shal be required to believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and liberality to them and partaking with them in faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret Laterilethalis arundo The seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians hath been stuck so hard in the Peoples heads and memories I cannot say into their hearts for they understood nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel That I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The 2 Great vertues that were severally in Henry the 7. Henry the 8. When they shall be Joyntly in one King will easily cure it that of Henry the 7 was without much noise of the people to â—ill his Coffers that of Henry the 8 was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks me thinks like an advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall on them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible Unchirstian and unhuman design should ever enter into the Kings heart I would have him have money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from the Enemies all hope of success that they may not dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the Aâ—tual committing such crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws the Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true poliâ—icks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their duty to obey aâ— Laws whatsoever that shall be by the Authority of the King enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repeal'd suâ—â— as are fit to make Men understand that the Civil Laws are Gods Laws as they that make them to make Men know that the people and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the â—ing and that no Man has Title to Govern under him that has it not from him that the King owes his Crown to God onlâ— and to no Man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting â—or the coming again of our blessed Saviour and
raised to fight against him A. Nay farther they put to the King's Accompts the 30000 l. given to the Scots without which they would not have Invaded England besides many other things that I now remember not B. I did not think there had been so great Impudence and Villany in Mankind A. You have not observ'd the world long enough to see all that 's ill Such was their Remonstrance as I have told you with it they sent a Petition containing three points First That His Majesty would deprive the Bishops of their Votes in Parliament and remove such Oppressions in Religion Church Government and Discipline as they had brought in Secondly That he would remove from his Council all such as should promote the Peoples Grievances and Imploy in his great and publick Affairs such as the Parliament should confide in Thirdly That he would not give away the Lands Escheated to the Crown by the Rebellion in Ireland B. This last point methinks was not wisely put in at this time it should have been reserv'd till they had subdued the Rebels against whom there were yet no Forces sent over 'T is like selling the Lions Skin before they had kill'd him But what answer was made to the other two Propositions A. What answer should be made but a Denial About the same time the King himself Exhibited Articles against six persons of the Parliament five whereof were of the House of Commons and one of the House of Lords accusing them of High Treason and upon the fourth of January went himself to the House of Commons to demand those five of them but private notice having been given by some Treacherous person about the King they had absented themselves and by that means frustrated His Majesties Intention and after he was gone the House making a hainous matter of it and a High Breach of their Priviledges adjourned themselves into London there to sit as a General Committee pretending they were not safe at Westminster for the King when he went to the House to demand those persons had somewhat more attendance with him but not otherwise armed than his servants used to be than he ordinarily had and would not be pacified though the King did afterwards wave the prosecution of those persons unless he would also discover to them those that gave him Counsel to go in that manner to the Parliament-House to the end they might receive condign punishment which was the Word they used instead of Cruelty B. This was a harsh Demand Was it not enough that the King should forbear his Enemies but also that he must betray his Friends If they thus Tyraniâ—e over the King before they have gotten the Soveraign Power into their Hands how will they Tyranize over their Fellow-Subjects when they have gotten it A. So as they did B. How long staid that Committee in London A. Not above 2 or 3 Days and then were brought from London to the Parliament-House by Water in great Triumph guarded with a tumultuous number of Armed Men there to sit in security in despite of the King and make Traiterous Acts against Him such and as many as they listed and under favour of these Tumults to frighten away from the House of Peers all such as were not of their own Faction for at this time tâ—e Rabble was so insolent that scarce any of the Bishops durst go to the House for fear of Violence upon their Persons insomuch that Twelve of them excused themselves of Coming thither and by way of Perition to the King remonstrated that they were not permitted to go quietly to the Performance of that Duty and protesting against all Determinations as of none Effect that should pass in the House of Lords during their forced Absence which the House of Commons taking hold of sent up to the Peers one of their Members to accuse them of High Treason whereupon Ten of them were sent to the Tower after which time there was no more words of their High Treason but there passed a Bill by which they were deprived of their Votes in Parliament And to this Bill they got the Kings Assent and in the beginning of Sept. after they Voted the Bishops should have no more to do in the Government of the Church but to this they had not the Kings Assent the War being now begun B. What made the Parliament so averse to Episcopacy and especially the House of Lords whereof the Bishops were Members For I see no reason why they should do it to gratifie a number of poor Parish Priests that were Presbyterians and that were never likely to serve the Lords but on the contrary to do their best to pull down their power and subject them to their Synods and Classes A. For the Lords very few of them did perceive the intention of the Presbyterians and besides that they durst not I believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower-House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democrasie and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourably laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole world What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls
have heard I believe how great a Darling of the people his Father had been before him and what Honour he had gotten by the success of his Enterprize upon Cales and in some other Military actions To which I may add That this Earl himself was not held by the People to be so great a Favourite at Court as that they might not trust him with their Army against the King and by this you may perhaps conjecture the cause for which the Parliament made choice of him for General B. But why did they think him discontented with the Court A. I know not that nor indeed that he was so he came to Court as other Noblemen did when occasion was to wait upon the King but had no Office till a little before this time to oblige him to be there continually but I believe verily that the unfortunateness of his Marriage had so discountenanced his Conversation with Ladies that the Court could be his proper Element unless he had had some extraordinary savour there to balance that calamity for particular discontent from the King or intention of revenge for any supposed disgrace I think he had none nor that he was any wayes addicted to Presbyterian Doctrines or other Fanatick Tenets in Church or State saving only that he was carried away with the stream in a manner of the whole Nation to think that England was not an absolute but a mixt Monarchy not considering that the Supreme Power must alwayes be absolute whether it be in the King or in the Parliament B. Who was General of the Kings Army A. None yet but Himself nor indeed had He yet any Army but there coming to him at that time two Nephews the Princes Rupert and Maurice He put the Command of His Horse into the hands of Prince Rupert a Man then whom no man living has a better courage nor was more active and diligent in prosecuting his Commission and though but a young Man then was not without experience in the conducting of Soldiers as having been an Actor in part of his Fathers Wars in Germany B. But how would the King find money to pay such an Army as was necessary for Him against the Parliament A. Neither the King nor Parliament had much money at that time in their own hands but were fain to relie upon the Benevolence of those that took their parts wherein I confess the Parliament had a mighty great advantage those that helped the King in that kind were only Lords and Gentlemen which not approving the proceedings of the Parliament were willing to undertake the payment every one of a certain number of Horse which cannot be thought any very great assistance the persons that payed them being so few for other Monies that the King then had I have not heard of any but what he borrow'd upon Jewels in the Low-Countries whereas the Parliament had a very plentiful Contribution not only from London but generally from their Faction in all other places of England upon certain Propositions published by the Lords and Commons in June 1642. at which time they had newly Voted That the King intended to make War upon them for bringing in of Money or Plate to maintain Horse and Horsemen and to buy Arms for the preservation of the Publick Peace and for the defence of the King and both Houses of Parliament for the Re-payment of which Money and Plate they were to have the Publick Faith B. What Publick Faith is there when there is no Publick What is it that can be call'd Publick in a Civil War without the King A. The Truth is the Security was nothing worth but serv'd well enough to gull those seditious Blockheads that were more fond of change than either of their peace or profit having by this means gotten Contributions from those that were the well-affected to their Cause they made use of it afterwards to force the like Contribution from others for in November following they made an Ordinance for Assessing also of those that had not Contributed then or had Contributed but not proportionably to their Estates And yet this was contrary to what the Parliâ—ment promised and declar'd in the Propositions themselves for they declar'd in the first Proposition That no mans Affection should be measured by the prâ—portion of his Offer so that he expressed his good will to the Service in any proportion whatsoever Besides this in the beginning of March following they made an Ordinance to Levy weekly a great Sum of money upon every County City Town Place and Person of any Estate almost in England which weekly Sum as may appear by the Ordinance it self printed and published in March 1642 by Order of both Houses comes to almost 33000 l. and consequently to above 1700000 l. for the year They had besides all this the Profits of the King's Lands and Woods and whatsoever was remaining unpaid of any Subsidy formerly granted Him and the Tunnage and Poundage usually received by the King besides the profit of the Sequestration of great persons whom they pleas'd to vote Delinquents and the profits of the Bishops Lands which they took to themselves a year or a little more after B. Seeing then the Parliament had such advantage of the King in Money Arms and multitude of Men and had in their hands the King's Fleet I cannot imagine what hope the King could have either of Victory unless He resign'd into their hands the Sovereignty or subsisting for I cannot well believe He had any advantage of them either in Councillors Conducts or in the Resolution of his Soldiers A. On the contrary I think He had also some disadvantage in that for though He had as good Officers at least as any then serv'd the Parliament yet I doubt He had not so useful Council as was necessary And for His Soldiers though they were Men as stout as theirs yet because their Valor was not sharpned so with Malice as theirs was of the other side they sought not so keenly as their Enemies did amongst whom there was a great many London Apprentices who for want of experience in the War would have been fearful enough of death and wounds approaching visibly in glittering Swords but for want of judgment scarce thought of such a death as comes invisibly in a Bullet and therefore were very hardly to be driven out of the Field B. But what fault do you find in the King's Councils Lords and other Persons of Quality and Experience A. Only that fault which was generally in the whole Nation which was That they thought the Government of England was not an absolute but a mixt Monarchy and that if the King should clearly subdue this Parliament that His power would be what He pleased and theirs as little as He pleased which they counted Tyranny This opinion though it did not lesâ—en their endeavors to gain the Victory for the King in a Battel when the Battel could not be avoided yet it weakned their endeavors to procure him an absolute
the next morning He took Banbury Castle and from thence went to Oxford and thence to Brentford where he gave a great Defeat to Three Regiments of the Parliaments Forces and so return'd to Oxford B. Why did not the King go on from Brentford A. The Parliament upon the first notice of the King 's marching from Shrewsbury caused all the Trained Bands and the Auxiliaries of the City of London which were so frighted as to shut up all their shops to be drawn forth so that there was a complete and numerous Army ready for the Earl of Essex that was crept into London just at that time to head it and this was it that made the King retire to Oxford In the beginning of February after Prince Ruport took Cirencester from the Parliament with many Prisoners and many Arms for it was newly made a Magazine And thus stood the business between the King 's and the Parliaments Forces The Parliament in the mean time caused a Line of Communication to be made about London and the Suburbs of 12 miles in compass and constituted a Committee for the Assotiation and the putting into a posture of defence the Counties of Essex Cambridge Suffolk and some others and one of those Commissioners was Oliver Cromwel from which employment he came to his following greatness B. What was done during this time in other Parts of the Countrey A. In the West the Earl of Stamford had the employment of putting in execution the Ordinance of Parliament for the Militia and Sir Ralph Hopton for the King executed the Commission of Array Between those two was fought a Battel at Liscard in Cornwal where Sir Ralph Hopton had the Victory and presently took a Town called Saltash with many Arms and much Ordnance and many Prisoners Sir William Waller in the mean time seized Winchester and Chichester for the Parliament In the North for the Commission of Array my Lord of Newcastle and for the Militia of the Parliament was my Lord Fairfax My Lord of Newcastle took from the Parliament Tadcaster in which were a great part of the Parliaments Forces for that County and had made himself in a manner Master of all the North about this time that is to say in February the Queen landed at Barlington and was conducted by my Lord of Newcastle and the Marquis of Montross to York and not long after to the King Divers other little advantages besides these had the King's Party of the Parliaments in the North. There hapned also between the Militia of the Parliament the Commission of Array in Staffordshire under my Lord Brook for the Parliament and my Lord of Northampton for the King great contention wherein both these Commanders were slain for my Lord Brook besieging Lichfield-Close was kill'd with a shot notwithstanding which they gave not over the Siege till they were Masters of the Close But presently after my Lord of Northampton besieged it again for the King which to relieve Sir William Brereston and Sir John Gell advanced towards Lichfield and were met at Hopton-heath by the Earl of Northampton and routed the Earl himself was slain but his Forces with Victory return'd to the Siege again and shortly after seconded by Prince Rupert who was then abroad in that Countrey carried the place These were the chief Actions of this year 164â— wherein the King's Party had not much the worse B. But the Parliament had now a better Army insomuch that if the Earl of Essex had immediately followed the King to Oxford not yet well fortified he might in all likelihood have taken it for he could not want either Men or Ammunition whereof the City of London which was wholly at the Parliaments devotion had store enough A. I cannot judge of that but this is manifest considering the estate the King was in at his first marching from York when He had neither Money nor Men nor Arms enough to put Him in hope of Victory that this year take it altogether was very prosperous B. But what great Folly or Wickedness do you observe in the Parliaments Actions for this first year A. All that can be said against them in that point will be excus'd with the pretext of War and come under one Name of Rebellion saving that when they summoned any Town it was alwayes in the Name of the King and Parliament The King being in the contrary Army and many times beating them from the Siege I do not see how the right of War can justifie such Impudence as that But they pretended that the King was alwayes vertually in the Two Houses of Parliament making a distinction between His Person Natural and Politique which made the Impudence the greater besides the folly of it For this was but an University Quibble such as Boyes make use of in maintaining in the Schools such Tenets as they cannot otherwise defend In the end of this year they sollicited also the Scots to enter England with an Army to suppress the power of the Earl of Newcastle in the North which was a plain Confession that the Parliament Forces were at this time inferior to the Kings and most Men thought that if the Earl of Newcastle had then marched Southward and joined his Forces with the Kings that most of the Members of Parliament would have fled out of England In the beginning of 1643. the Parliament seeing the Earl of Newcastle's power in the North grown formidable sent to the Scots to hire them to an Invasion of England and to Compliment them in the mean time made a Covenant among themselves such as the Scots before had made against Episcopacy and demolished Crosses and Church-windows such as had in them any Images of Saints throughout all England Also in the middle of the year they made a Solemn League with the Nation which was called The Solemn League and Covenant B. Are not the Scots as properly to be called Foreigners as the Irish seeing then they persecuted the Earl of Strafford even to death for advising the King to make use of Irish Forces against the Parliament with what face could they call in a Scotch Army against the King A. The King's Party might easily here have discern'd their design to make themselves absolute Masters of the Kingdom and to dethrone the King Another great Impudence or rather a Bestial Incivility it was of theirs That they Voted the Queen a Traytor for helping the King with some Ammunition and English Forces from Holland B. Was it possible that all this could be done and Men not see that Papers and Declarations must be useless And that nothing could satisfie them but the Deposing of the King and setting up of themselves in His place A. Yes very possible for who was there of them though knowing that the King had the Sovereign Power that knew the Essential Rights of Sovereignty They dreamt of a mixt Power of the King and the Two Houses That it was a divided Power in which there could be no Peace was above their
and the treacherous divisions growing now among themselves had driven them to relie upon the fortune of one day in which at Naseby the King's Army was utterly overthrown and no hope left Him to raise another therefore after the Battel he went up and down doing the Parliament here and there some shrewd turns but never much increasing His number Fairfax in the mean time first recovered Leicester and then marching into the West subdued it all except only a few places forcing with much ado my Lord Hopton upon honorable Conditions to disband his Army and with the Prince of Wales to pass over to Scilly whence not long after they went to Paris In April 1646. General Fairfax began to march back to Oxford in the mean time Rainsburrough who besieged Woodstock had it surrender'd The King therefore who was now also return'd to Oxford from whence Woodstock is but six miles not doubting but that He should there by Fairfax be besieg'd and having no Army to relieve Him resolv'd to get away disguised to the Scotch Army about Newark and thither he came the 4th of May and the Scotch Army being upon remove homewards carried Him with them to Newcastle whither He came May the 13th B. Why did the King trust Himself with the Scots They were the first that Rebell'd They were Presbyterians i. e. cruel Besides they were indigent and consequently might be suspected would sell Him to His Enemies for money And lastly They were too weak to defend Him or keep Him in their Countrey A. What could He have done better for He had in the Winter before sent to the Parliament to get a Pass for the Duke of Richmond and others to bring them Propositions of Peace it was denied He sent again it was denied again Then He desir'd He might come to them in Person this also was denied He sent again and again to the same purpose but instead of granting it they made an Ordinance That the Commanders of the Militia of London in the case the King should attempt to come within the Line of Communication should raise what Force they thought fit to suppress Tumults to apprehend such as came with Him and to secure i. e. to imprison His Person from danger If the King had adventur'd to come and had been imprison'd what would the Parliament have done with Him They had dethron'd Him by their Votes and therefore could have no security while He liv'd though in Prison it may be they would not have put Him to death by a High Court of Justice publickly but secretly some other way B. He should have attempted to get beyond Sea A. That had been from Oxford very difficult Besides it was generally believ'd that the Scotch Army had promis'd Him that not only His Majesty but also His Friends that should come with Him should be in their Army safe not only for their Persons but also for their Honours and Consciences 'T is a pretty Trick when the Army and the particular Soldiers of that Army are different things to make the Soldiers promise what the Army means not to perform July 11. the Parliament sent their Propositions to the King at Newcastle which Propositions they pretended to be the onely way to a setled and well-grounded Peace They were brought by the Earl of Pembroke the Earl of Suffolk Sir Walter Earl Sir John Hyppesley Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Robinson whom the King asked If they had power to Treat And when they said No why they might not as well have been sent by a Trumpeter The Propositions were the same dethroning ones which they used to send and therefore the King would not assent to them Nor did the Scots swallow them at first but made some Exceptions against them only it seems to make the Parliament perceive they meant not to put the King into their hands gratis and so at last the bargain was made between them and upon payment of 200000 l. the King was put into the hands of the Commissioners which the English Parliament sent down to receive Him B. What a vile Complexion hath this Action compounded of feigned Religion and very Covetousness Cowardize Perjury and Treachery A. Now the War that seemed so just by many unseemly things is ended you will see almost nothing in these Rebels but Baseness and Falseness besides their Folly By this time the Parliament had taken in all the rest â—f the King's Garisons whereof the last was Pendennis Castle whither Duke Hamilton had been sent Prisoner by the King B. What was done during this time in Ireland and Scotland A. In Ireland there had been a Peace made by Order from His Majesty for a time which by divisions by the Irish was ill kept The Popish Party the Pope's Nuncio being then there took this to be the time for delivering themselves from their subjection to the English besides the time of the Peace was now expir'd B. How were they subject to the English more than the English to the Irish They were subject to the King of England but so also were the English to the King of Ireland A. The distinction is somewhat too subtile for common understanding In Scotland the Marquis of Montross for the King with a very few Men had miraculously with Victories over-run all Scotland where many of his Forces out of too much security were permitted to be absent for a while of which the Enemy having intelligence suddenly came upon them and forced them to flie back into the High-lands to recruit where he began to recover strength when the King commanded him being then in the hands of the Scots at Newcastle to disband and he departed from Scotland by Sea In the end of the same year 1646. the Parliament caused the King's great Seal to be broken Also the King was brought to Holmeby and there kept by the Parliaments Commissioners and here was an end of that War as to England and Scotland but not to Ireland About this time also dyed the Earl of Essex whom the Parliament had discarded B. Now that there was Peace in England and the King in Prison in whom was the Sovereign Power A. The Right was certainly in the King but the exercise was yet in no body but contended for as in a Game at Cards without fighting all the years 1647. and 1648. between the Parliament and Oliver Cromwel Lieutenant General to Sir Thomas Fairfax You must know that when King Henry VIII abolished the Pope's Authority here and took upon him to be the Head of the Church the Bishops as they could not resist him so neither were they discontented with it For whereas the Pope before allowed not the Bishops to claim Jurisdiction in their Diocesses Jure Divino that is of Right immediately from God but by the Gift and Authority of the Pope now that the Pope was outed they made no doubt but the Divine Right was in themselves After this the City of Geneva and divers other places beyond Sea having revolted from the
came to Black-Heath and thence sent to the City to get passage through it to joyn with those which were risen in Essex under Sir Charles Lucas and Sir George Lisle which being denied the greatest part of his Kentish men deserted him with the rest not above five hundred he crossed the Thames unto the Isle of Dogs and so to Bow and thence to Colchester Fairfax having notice of this crossed the Thames at Graves-End and overtaking them besieg'd them in Colchester The Town had no defence but a Bulwark and yet held out upon hope of the Scotch Army to relieve them the space of two Months Upon the news of the defeat of the Scots they were forced to yield the Earl of Norwich was sent Prisoner to London Sir Charles Lucas and Sir George Lisle two Loyal and Gallant Persons were shot to Death There was also another little Insurrection headed by the Earl of Holland about Kingston but quickly supprest and he himself taken Prisoner B. How came the Scots to be so soon dispatcht A. Meerly as it is said for want of Conduct The Army was led by Duke Hamilton who was then set at liberty when Pendennis Castle where he was Prisoner was taken by the Parliament He entred England with Horse and Foot 10000 to which came above 3000 English Royalists Against these Cromwel marched out of Wales with Horse and Foot 11000 and near to Preston in Lancashire in less then two hours defeated them and the cause of it is said to be that the Scotch Army was so ordered as they could not all come to the Fight nor relieve their Fellows After the Defeat they had no way to fly but farther into England so that in the Pursuit they were almost all taken and lost all that an Army could lose for the few that got home did not all bring home their Swords Duke Hamilton was taken and not long after sent to London but Cromwel marched to Edenburrough and there by the help of the Faction which was contrary to Hamilton's he made sure not to be hindred in his designs the first whereof was to take away the Kings Life by the hand of the Parliament whilst these things passed in the North the Parliament Cromwel being away came to it self and recalling their Vote of Non-Addresses sent to the King new Propositions somewhat but not much easier than the former and upon the King's answer to them they sent Commissioners to treat with him at Newport in the Isle of Wight where they so long dodged with him about Trifles that Cromwel was come to London before they had done to the Kings destruction for the Army was now wholly at the Devotion of Cromwel who set the Adjutators on work to make a Remonstrance to the House of Commons wherein they require 1. That the King be brought to Justice 2. That the Prince and Duke of York be summon'd to appear at a day appointed and proceeded with according as they should give satisfaction 3. That the Parliament settle the future Government and set a reasonable period to their own sitting and make certain future Parliaments Annual or Biennial 4. That a competent number of the Kings chief Instruments be executed and this to be done both by the House of Commons and by a general agreement of the people testified by their Subscriptions Nor did they stay for an answer but presently set a Guard of Souldiers at the Parliament-House Door and other Souldiers in Westminster-Hall suffering none to go into the House but such as would serve their turns all others were frighted away or made Prisoners and some upon divers quarrels suspended About ninety of them because they had refus'd to Vote against the Scots and others because they had voted against the Vote of Non-Addresses and the rest were a House for Cromwel The Phanaticks also in the City being countenanced by the Army pack a new Common Council whereof any forty was to be above the Mayor and their first work was to frame a Petition for Justice against the King which Tichbourn the Mayor involving the City in the Regicide deliver'd to the Parliament At the same time with like violence they took the King from Newport in the Isle of Wight to Hurst Castle till things were ready for his Tryal the Parliament in the mean time to avoid Perjury by an Ordinance declar'd void the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance and presently after made another to bring the King to his Tryal B. This is a piece of Law that I understood not before that when many men swear fingly they may when they are assembled if they please absolve themselves A. The Ordinance being drawn up was brought into the House where after three several readings it was voted That the Lords and Commons of England assembled in Parliament do declare that by the Fundamental Laws of the Realm it is Treason in the King of England to levy War against the Parliament And this Vote was sent up to the Lords and they denying their consent the Commons in anger made another Vote That all Members of Committees should proceed and act in any Ordinance whether the Lords concurr'd or no and that the People under God are the Original of all just Power and that the House of Commons have the Supreme Power of the Nation and that whatsoever the House of Commons Enacted is Law All this passed nemine contradicente B. These Propositions fight not only against a King of England but against all the Kings of the World It were good they thought on 't but yet I believe that under God the Original of all Laws was in the People A. But the People for them and their Heirs by consent and Oaths have long ago put the Supreme Power of the Nation into the hands of their Kings for them and their Heirs and consequently into the hands of this King their known and lawful Heir B. But does not the Parliament represent the People A. Yes to some purposes as to put up Petitions to the King when they have leave and are griev'd but not to make a grievance of the Kings Power Besides the Parliament never represents the People but when the King calls them Is it to be imagin'd that he calls a Parliament to depose himself Put the case every County and Burrough should have given for a benevolence a sum of Money and that every County meeting in their County Court or elsewhere and that every Burrough in their Town-Hall should have chosen certain men to carry their several sums respectively to the Parliament had not these men represented the whole Nation B. Yes no doubt A. Do you think the Parliament would have thought it reasonable to be called to account by this Representative B. No sure and yet I must confess the Case is the same A. This Ordinance contained First a Summary of the Charge against the King in substance this That not content with the Incroachments of his Predecessors upon the freedom of the People he had
others and contrarily what one calls Vice an other calls Vertue as their present Affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed amongst the Vertues that which in my Opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whether do we Digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not Digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that past in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Counsels and Artifices by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have Written the History out of whom I might have Learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of it I would ask therefore since you were pleased to enter into this Discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method And for the danger of Confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A Well then to your Question concerning Religion Inasmuch as I told you that Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not Established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no obedience from the Laws of Men but because men can never by their own Wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and Commanded to be Observed nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiess in some humane Authority or other So that the Question will be Whether a man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his Duty to God and the King to rely upon the Preaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that point for there is none that Preach here or any where else at least ought to Preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power So that if the King give us leave you or I may as lawfully Preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle for in the Church of Rome the principle Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious to be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith that they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the Goodness and Wickedness of all Actions by their Congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Phylosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writingâ— B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who i◠〈◊〉 had Power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right Unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians doe to have a right from God immediately to Govern the King and his Subjects in all points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had Number and Strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to attain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a System of the present Morals written by some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such an one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading the Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way And yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them that were the most dilligent Preachers of the late Sedition were to be tried by it they would go near to be found Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches His Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgment of him is his Essence and his Attributes and in believing of his Word his Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those Seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of Holy Scripture received for Câ—nonical in England B. They receive the Word of God but 't is according to their own Interpretation A. According to whose Interpretation was it received by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to God's Will Did any of them nay did any Man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandments which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their Preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all Men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damned and for their Preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to God's revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought it so it was not Disobedience but Error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisy hath this great prerogative above other Sins that it cannot be accused A. Another Duty he sets down is to Honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty I think as well as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have Gods House free from profanation to have Tithes duly paid to have the Sabbath day kept Holy the Word Preached and the Lords Supper and Baptism duely Administred But is not the keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to