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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A35717	Truth-triumphant in a dialogue between a Papist and a Quaker : wherein (I suppose) is made manifest, that quaking is the off-spring of popery : at least, the Papist and the Quaker, are (fratres uterini) both of one venter.	Derby, Charles Stanley, Earl of, 1628-1672.	1671 (1671)	Wing D1090B; ESTC R16515	10,629	18

I was before 1641. Pap. By no means do so either come strait to Us or continue a Quaker Nay rather than turn Protestant I 'le get thee a Dispensation from Rome to continue a Quaker and that thou shalt not so much as go into Purgatory Quak. Yours is a very brave Religion if it could hold water but what assurance have you that God allows this Pap. The Infallibility of the Church Quak. What is that Pap. The truth is we are not yet agreed amongst Our selves for some of Us as we Jesuites do hold the Pope to be Infallible that whatsoever He Decrees We are obliged to yield unto an implicite obedience and Belief others do place it in a General Council the Pope presiding over it And lastly others in a Council only Protestant And so I perceive it 's no where with you with us it is for now I will argue like a Protestant we have Infallibility in our Church Papist What is that Prot. The Old and New Testament for you cannot deny it to be the Word of God Papist That we cannot but this we say That it is but a dead Letter without the Interpretation of the Church Prot. Whoop holy day I think your Worship will turn Quaker Papist No such thing I warrant you but to proceed and to speak to you as to a Protestant All your Opposers produce the Bible against you as well as against us What can you answer to that Prot. Let right take place but by the way this is foul play for you to urge me to answer you as a Hydra with so many Heads Will you be a Papist a Presbyterian Independent Quaker and every thing at once This is to be a right Jesuite indeed but I will allow you all this advantage I will therefore go on as I said before let right take place for the Church of England has the advantage over all her Opposers above-mentioned and over ten thousand more if she had so many for against you all she has a claim to this Infallible Guide of the Word of God with all the difficulties therein contained explained by all Antient Fathers and Councils against which no sober man can except So that we have the Bible against you and against them and against you we have the Bible as I said before explained with the four first General Councils with the Practice of those times of Purity besides is it not familiar with you of the Roman Church together with all those several enemies above-named and Opposers of the Church of England to cry up Success and may not Protestants make use of the same Plea so far especially as it is Argumentum ad hominem And so offer to your prospect and consideration the miraculous Restauration of the Church of England in the year 1660. Papist You mean the Kings Restauration Prot. I mean both but we are now disputing concerning the Church not King of England for though you as being a Papist a Priest and a Jesuite are an Enemy to both Church and State But the reason I only name the Church of Englands Restauration is because I conceive God restored the King for the Churches sake because God knew the King would restore the Church of England for whose sake God did restore him Moreover I mention the Church of England only because God has dealt so often miraculously for her As first in our King Henry the Eighth his dayes that such an occasion of Scandal should be given to the whole World as well as to that King in particular that though he did not so very much alter the Roman Religion yet he absolutely took away the Popes Authority which was a miraculous step to that more exact Reformation Which in the second place God did miraculously bring to pass by means of a Child as I may say King Edward the Sixth The third Miracle God did act for the Church of England was that Queen Mary Espoused to a King of Spain having fully restored Popery and butchered thousands of Protestants yet The miracu●ous methods ●f God on the ●ehalf of Eng●and during se●e●al Successi●ns of time was it not in her power though assisted with the House of Austria which was then in its Zenith as I suppose now France is to prevent the wonderfully miraculous Restauration of the Church of England by the ever famous Queen Elizabeth and though that Good and Gallant Queen was in the hands of Her and the Church of Englands Adversaries yet did God miraculously preserve Her for his Churches sake And this Church was likewise in the fourth place though indeed not restored yet powerfully and wonderfully preserved when King James Succeeded to this great and virtuous Queen The last Miracle I pray God this Church may need no more of them which it pleased God to shew this Church was in the Year Sixty though indeed three more might have been added so as to have made this fifth the eighth but for brevities sake I shall put them together First the Defeat of that Navy which the Spaniards called their Invincible Armad● in the Year 1588. Secondly the miraculous prevention of the Popish Conspiracy the fifth day of November whereby the King His Nobles the chief of the Gentry and Commons in Parliament should have been blown up The third the true Christian Valour and Magnanimity which appeared in his Late Majesty on the behalf of the Church of England asserting her Reformation during all His Sufferings to the last minute of his Martyrdom And now Sir I hope I have confuted you by your own way of Argumentation and now Sir hereafter if you please you may worship your great Diana of Success Papist Your Successes we cannot deny but still I conceive the Bible is not a sufficient Infallible Guide Prot. I think I have very well proved by the several above-mentioned miracles that Infallibility of the Bible is for the Church of England as now it is established this Year 1668. Jul. against your and all other Dissenters from the Church of England and in my opinion is a great sign of her being a true Church that she is furnished on all sides with good and sound Arguments for her defence and offending her Adversaries for in the first she opposes to you the Bible Practice of the Primitive Church the Antient Fathers and your own modern ones and against such as I was once formerly She has the same though She have less occasion to make use of the Bible Thus is she furnisht with complete Armour and Weapons God Almighty has armed Her Cap ape against the Devil and all his Instruments So that the Gates of Hell shall never be able to prevail against Her Papist You have taken your Common-Prayer-Book out of the Mass Prot. You have your Mass out of the Jewish Liturgy Papist How can that be Prot. Are not the Psalms of David made use of in the Mass Papist They are I confess Prot. They were either all or in part the Jewish Liturgy Papist We do

TRVTH-TRIUMPHANT IN A DIALOGUE BETWEEN A PAPIST AND A QUAKER Wherein I suppose Is made Manifest that QVAKING is the OFF-SPRING of POPERY At the least The PAPIST and the QUAKER Are FRATRES VTERINI Both of one VENTER London Printed Anno Domini MDCLXXI TRVTH-TRIUMPHANT In a DIALOGUE Between a PAPIST and a QUAKER Papist GOod morrow my half Brother in Religion Quaker Why what Religion art thou of Papist I am a Roman Catholick and I call thee my half Brother because thou art a Quaker Quaker What Brother-hood or Relation can there be between a Quaker and a Papist Pap. O Brother We are nearer a kin than thou art aware of Quak. That 's impossible for I turnd Quaker to avoid Popery for I did think the Church of England would set up Popery Pap. Nothing less Brother for I assure you the Pope and all of his Perswasion of all their Adversaries dread none so much as the Church of England But to come to the Point all or most part of what you believe you have from us for though I am a Shoo-maker and work at my Trade I am for all that a Priest and am sometimes a Quaker and Preach up your Religion as I have done several times at Bristol Quak. What should be your Reason to endeavour to set up our Religion Pap. To make you turn Papist as you call us Quak. This is a strange Riddle to me pray unfold it Pap. That I intend to do We must do what we can to cry down the Bible for that makes clear against us and that trick we taught you of calling the Scripture a dead Letter Then Secondly we teach Free-Will to that height that a man has Power in himself to please God and walk uprightly Do not you believe all this Brother Quak. Yea Thus far we agree Pap. Do you know Cap. Everard Quak. Yea He was a Godly Man before he turn'd Papist Pap. He never was otherwise he was a Priest too and commanded by the Pope to pretend to be one of you the better to oppose the Church of England Quak. Strange Is it possible now I am afraid I am nearer Popery than I was aware of Bless me by leaving the Church of England I thought to flie from Popery and for ought I percieve I am running head-long into it Pap. Yes Brother I hope to make you a good Catholick before we part Quak. You can never do thut Pap. I will either do so or confirm you where you are Quak. For the latter I am content Pap. Have you not heard of my Lady How she run through all Religions from a Protestant she turn'd Presbyterian to avoid Popery there she could not rest because there was a Church-Government and therefore resembled too much the Church of England and besides she hearing there were people that Prayed and taught by the Spirit away she goes to them To be short she was one while an Independent a Quaker and what not Well at last hearing that the Church of Rome had an Infallible guide in Religion thither she steered her Course and there she cast Anchor and continues a good Catholick Quak. I have heard of that Lady you speak of and for that reason and because of what I have heard you say I love my Religion never the better for it there is one only reason perswades me to continue in it Pap. What is that Quak. I will tell thee If thou wilt promise me to say nothing of it Pap. I do upon the word of a Priest Quak. Then I will tell thee truly a Sister for thou must know we call one another Brothers and Sisters may not deny a Brother to lie with her if the Spirit moves for every provocation to that which you call Letchery We say is Gods Spirit nor a Brother a Sister if the Spirit enable him Pap. If that be all turn Catholick and I will give thee a Dispensation to have as many Women as thou wilt or art able to turn to that die when thou wilt thou art sure to go to Heaven however Quak. A good Argument I confess if thou couldst prove thy self enabled thereunto by God Almighty but I suspect what thou dost offer is to satisfie our Lusts and Letchery no matter for our Souls to make us subservient to your ends in this world whereas what we do is to raise up a Holy Seed unto the Lord so that by doing him Service not by Sinning against him we indulge much to our own satisfaction so that we serve him without any trouble either to the Conscience or the Body for to give a Licence for Sin is a most horrid thing to say you have Power to Absolve for Sins past as the Church of England says is not amiss but that you have Power to give Licence to Sin is what I can never believe and therefore for any thing I have yet heard from thee I will continue as I am therefore be one of Us and thou shalt enjoy Multitudes of Women without offending God Pap. I have the same argument to perswade thee to come to us I can give Indulgencies that shall serve thee and thy Posterity for Thousands of Years Quak. This is like a Doctrine of ours that God sees not Sin in Us that are the Godly if one of Us lie with many Women we are then raising a Holy Seed a Royal Priesthood amongst the Ungodly party this is Fornication and a Sin the Goods of the whole World which the wicked possess belong not to them they are Ours of right to dispossess them thereof is no Robbery Pap. We say the same for the Pope hath power to dispose of all the Kingdoms of the Earth to take them from the wicked from Hereticks Schismaticks Idolaters c. and give them to true Catholicks for those are the truly Godly party Quak. Bless me where am I I shall be a Papist I very much fear nay I doubt I have been one all this while Pap. Doubtless we are very near one another Quak. But I 'le get further from thee if I can but pray let me ask thee one Question why are you a greater Enemy to the Church of England than to all others that differ from the Church of Rome Pap. Because they have the resemblance of a Church which none of you have except the Presbyterian and next the Church of England we dread them and the more because they seem to comply more with the Church of England than formerly and begin to perceive it impossible to set up for themselves for when ever they shall attempt it the Independents will infallibly supplant them as formerly and they again the Independents I mean will run into so many Sects of Religion and Parties that they can never subsist but must at last be forced to submit to the Church of England or us of Rome Quak. I perceive now I must be either a Protestant or a Papist Pap. Without all peradventure you cannot avoid it Quak. I 'le ee'n then turn Protestant as

confess they were Prot. Then hereafter tell us no more of our Common-Prayer being taken out of the Mass and now we are speaking of the Jews let me tell you that you make use of the same Arguments to oppose us that the Jews did to oppose our Saviour they urged to our Saviour That he was an Innovator and that he opposed the Traditions of their Church which say they had continued from the establishment of it by God in Moses's time This method you observe against us calling us Innovators who are the chiefest opposers of Innovation for our Churches endeavour is to cast off what you have Innovated in Christian Religion Let me ask you one Question Do not you believe all that the Church of England believes Papist We do but we believe more Prot. Then let me tell you whatsoever in more are Romes Superstructures and Innovations and ought to be rejected of all true Christians Papist I doubt I have kill'd the wrong man for I doubted not from a Quaker to have made you one of us but instead of that I have made you a Protestant and for ought I know I may chance to be one too But I will not quit the Field yet but have more discourse with you Protest With all my heart for me-thinks the more I discourse with you the more I am enabled above my capacity which 〈◊〉 must attribute to Gods good 〈…〉 who enables me a wea●…●●●rument of his to defend 〈◊〉 Truth Papist I●… 〈◊〉 be the Truth I wish it may appear so in the mean time I shall proceed thus Your Religion was never heard of before ●●●her s time Protest Is not that Argument worn thread-bare yet But seeing you insist upon it I shall repeat unto you for answer the words of a Learned Man out of his Epistle Dedicatory to His present Majesty the words as I remember are these Since that great Miracle of Divine Providence in your Majestie 's Stilling fleet most happy Restauration we have seen those who before triumphed over the Church of England as dead as much expressing their envy at Her resurrection Neither could it otherwise be expected but that so sudden a recovery of Her former Lustre would open the mouths of Her weak but contentious Adversaries who see Her shine in a Firmament so much above them But it is a part of Her present Felicity that they are ashamed of the insulting Question What is become of your Church now and are driven back to their old impertinency Where was your Church before Luther They might as well alter the Date of it and ask where She was before your Majesties Restauration For as She only suffered an Eclipse in the late Confusions no more did She though of a longer stay in the times before the Reformation and it was Her great Honour that She was not awakened out of it as of old they fancied by beating of Drums or the rude Clamours of the People but as She gradually regained Her Light so was it with the Influence of Supreme Authority which has caused so close an Union and Combination of Interests between them that the Church of England and the Royal Family have like Hippocrates his Twins both wept and rejoyced together And nothing doth more argue the excellent constitution of our Church than that wherein the purity of Christian Doctrine is joyned with the most hearty acknowledgment of your Majestie 's Power and Supremacy Thus far that learned Author I shall add further That if a Church Eclipsed or unseen shall be the destruction of it or that there was ever any such thing I would very fain know where the Church of God was when it was said the whole World was turn'd Arrian and before our Saviour came into the world how often was the Church of God invisible and the Worship or Religion appointed utterly overthrown by Idolaters Such as the Church of God was in those days the same our Church was before the Reformation and where the one was there was the other in Dens and Caves and in the hearts of good and Religious Men where God did receive an acceptable Sacrifice We see in the 19 Chap. of the first Book of the Kings verse 10. how 1 Kings Cap. 19. Ver. 10. invisible the Church of God was by the expression of the Prophet Elias there I have been very jealous for the Lord God of Hosts for the Children of Israel have forsaken thy Covenant broken down thine Altar and ●●●in thy Prophets with the sword and I only am left and they seek 〈…〉 to take it away These were the words of a true Prophet of the Lord to whom the Church of God was so invisible to him though often a fore-seer and fore-teller of future contingencies that he conceives himself to be the only Servant of the Lord left upon the face of the Earth yet in the Eighteen●h verse of the fore-mentioned Chap. God tells the Prophet Of Seven Thousand Men in Israel remaining even all the Knees that have not bowed unto Baal and every Mouth that hath not kist him Thus you see before Luther's time notwithstanding their invisibility according to this of the Prophet God might and no doubt had thousands of true believers which had not bowed their knees to your Baal of Rome and whose Mouths had never kist him and no doubt the Simile is very pat between this Baal of Jezabel's in the Book of the Kings and your Baal i. e. the Pope of Rome for as this Baal of Jezabel was to be bowed unto and Kissed so is your Baal or Pope of Rome likewise to be bowed unto and Kissed not his Face but his Toe even by Emperors and Our Saviour did suffer himself to be kissed on the Face to witness Judas's betraying this Saviour of the World with a kiss Kings as well as by the meanest of his Worshippers and Abettors and thus according to the Apostle St. Paul in the second to the Thessalonians Cap. 2. Ver. 4. He is an Adversary to our Saviour and his Holy Religion and exhalteth himself above and against all that is called God or that is Worshipped so that He doth sit as God in the Temple of God shewing himself that He is God And this truth is yet more confirm'd even by your selves by whom this Pope is called Dominus Deus noster Papa and to this Pope in your ordinary discourse either to him or of him you attribute a Title only due to God which is His Holiness There be three other Texts in this same Chapter that may very well be applyed to your Baal or Pope Ver. 8 9 11. And then shall that wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his Mouth and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming as it is Ver. the 8th For during the darkness of Superstition and Popery the times preceding before Luther Calvin and others this Baal was Worshipped without controul or visible gainsaying the true Worshippers those 7000. that