Tax upon the people of ninety thousand pound a Month for the maintenance of the Army B Was it not one of their Quarrels with the King that he had levied Money without the consent of the people in Parliament A. You may see by this what reason the Rump had to call it self a Parliament for the Taxes imposed by Parliament were always understood to be by the peoples consent and consequently legal To appease the Scots they sent Messengers with flattering Letters to keep them from ingaging for the present King but in vain for they would hear nothing from a House of Commons as they call'd it at Westminster without a King and Lords But they sent Commissioners to the King to let him know what they were doing for him for they were resolv'd to raise an Army of seventeen thousand Foot and six thousand Horse for themselves To relieve Ireland the Rump had resolv'd to send eleven Regiments thither out of the Army here in England This happened well for Cromwel for the Levelling Soldiers which were in every Regiment many and in some the major part finding that instead of dividing the Land at home they were to venture their Lives in Ireland flatly denied to go and one Regiment having cashier'd their Colonel about Salisbury was marching to joyn with three Regiments more of the same resolution but both the General and Cromwel falling upon them at Burford utterly defeated them and soon after reduced the whole Army to their obedience And thus another of the Impediments to Cromwel's Advancement was soon remov'd Thus done they came to Oxford and thence to London and at Oxford both the General and Cromwel were made Doctors of the Civil Law and at London â—easted and presented by the City B. Were they not first made Masters then Dâ—ctors A. They had made themselves Masters already both of the Laws and Parliament The Army being now obedient the Rump sent over those eleven Regiments into Ireland under the Command of Doctor Cromwel Entituled Governour of that Kingdom the Lord Fairfax being still General of all the Forces both here and there The Marquess now Duke of Ormond was the Kings Lieutenant of Ireland and the Rebels had made a Confederacy among themselves and those Confederates had made a kind of League with the Lieutenant wherein they agreed upon liberty given them in the exercise of their Religion to be faithful to and assist the King To these also were joyned some Forces raised by the Earls of Castlehaven and Clanriccard and my Lord Inchequin so that they were the greatest United Strength in the Island but there were among them a great many other Papists that would by no means subject themselves to Protestants and these were called the Nuncio's Party as the other were called the Confederate Party These Parties not agreeing and the Confederate Party having broken their Articles the Lord Lieutenant seeing them ready to besiege him in Dublin and not able to defend it to preserve the place for the Protestants surrenders it to the Parliament of England and came over to the King at this time when he was carried from place to place by the Army From England he went over to the Prince now King residing then at Paris But the Confederates affrighted with the news that the Rump was sending over an Army thither desir'd the Prince by Letters to send back my Lord of Ormond ingaging themselves to submit absolutely to the Kings Authority and to obey my Lord of Ormond as his Lieutenant And thereupon he was sent back This was about a year before the going over of Cromwel in which time by the Dissentions in Ireland between the Confederate Party and the Nuncio's Party and discontents about Command this otherwise sufficient Power effected nothing and was at last defeated August the second by a Salley out of Dublin which they were besieging Within a few days after arriv'd Cromwel who with extraordinary diligence and horrid Executions in less than a Twelve-month that he staid there subdued in a manner the whole Nation having kill'd or exterminated a great part of them and leaving his Son-in-law Ireton to subdue the rest But Ireton died there before the business was quite done of the Plague This was one step more towards Cromwel's Exaltation to the Throne B. What a miserable condition was Ireland reduced to by the Learning of the Roman as well as England was by the Learning of the Presbyterian Clergy A. In the latter end of the preceeding year the King was come from Paris to the Hague and shortly after came thither from the Rump their Agent Dorisâ—aus Doctor of the Civil Law who had been imployed in the drawing of the Charge against the late King But the first night he came as he was at Supper a Company of Cavaliers near a dozen entred his Chamber kill'd him and got away Not long after also their Agent at Madrid one Ascham that had written in defence of his Masters was kill'd in the same manner About this tire came out two Books one written by Salmasius a Presbyterian against the Murder of the King another written by Milton an Independent in England in Answer to it B. I have seen them both they are very good Laâ—iâ—â— both and hardly to be judged which is better and both very ill reasoning and hardly to be judged which is worst like two Declamations Pro and Con for Exercise only in a Rhetorick School by one and the same man So like is a Presbyterian to an Independent A. In this year the Rump did not much at home save that in the beginning they made England a Free State by an Act that runs thus Be it Enacted and Declared by this present Parliament and by the Authority thereof That the people of England and all the Dominions and Territories thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted made and declared a Common-wealth and Free State c. B. What did they mean by a Free State and Common-wealth were the people no longer to be subject to Laws They could not mean that for the Parliament meant to Govern them by their own Laws and punish such as broke them Did they mean that England should not be subject to any foreign Kingdom or Common-wealth That needed not be Enacted seeing there was no King nor People pretended to be their Masters What did they mean then A. They meant that neither this King nor any King nor any single person but only that they themselves would be the Peoples Masters and would have set it down in those plain words if the people could have been cozen'd with words intelligible as easily as with words not intelligible After this they gave one another Money and Estates out of the Lands and Goods of the Loyal Party They Enacted also an Engagement to be taken by every man in these words Tou shall promise to be true and faithful to the Common-wealth of England as it is now established without King or House of Lords They
would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that could cast your Body and Soul into Hell than the King that can onely kill the Body A. You say true for it were very uncharitable in me to believe that all Englishmen except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that die Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day do you not think them also damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for disobedience to the King's Law either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for sin and therefore if he die Excommunicate and without desire of reconciliation he dies impenitent you see what follows But to die in disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrine of those men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite another case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of their Dominions A. Heresie is a Word which when it is used without passion signifies a private Opinion so the different Sect of the old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoicks c. were called Heresie But in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the Salvation of mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same relation to the Power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the Power Temporal and is suitably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a Power Spiritual and dominion over mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as a Heretick for else not onely men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresie is by Law declared in Act of Parliament in the First Year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordained that the Persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to Adjudge any matter or cause to be Heresie but only such as heretofore have been Adjudged to be Heresie by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the First 4 General Councils or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresie by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scriptures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresie by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new Error that hath not been yet declared Heresie and many such may arise it cannot be Judged Heresie without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declared Heresie neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no Error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to hemself nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Council can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councils have declar'd a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those points that the first four General Counsels have declared Heresie B. The first General Councel held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed Upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ the Second General Councel held at Constantinople declar'd Heresie the Doctrine of Macedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The Third Councel assembled at Ephesius condemned the Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two persons in Christ The Fourth held at Calcedon condemned the Error of Emtyches that there was but one nature in Christ I know of no other Points condemned in these four Councels but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words And these Councels were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Councels themselves A. I see by this that both the Calling of the Council and the confirmation of their Doctrine and Church-Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor how comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text all Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now and conferred a Legislative Power on the Councils not only over Christian men but over all Nations in the world B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilism to Christianity he did by that very Submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian A. Did Silvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the Great converted by him tell the Emperor his New Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must become the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been not Christian at all or but a Counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian And for this Derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendom farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Fryer told him that Christ being King of all the World had given the diposing of all the Kingdoms there to the Pope And that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5. and required Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seised upon his Person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him You see by this how much they claim when they have power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this
for an University of Learning there was none erected till that time though it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monasteries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long before many more were added to them by the Devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy men and the Discipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easie to preferment both in Church and Commonwealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect received was the maintenance of the Pope's Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School Divines who striving to make good many points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Philosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may conceive that shall consider the writing of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or of any other School-Divines of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admired by two sorts of men otherwise prudent enough The one of which sorts were those that were already Devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admired the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine so that all sorts of people were fully resolved that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more then that was due to him I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such authority will have but a hard match of it for want of men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Pope's quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in France against King Henry the Fourth wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have Money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse Money when they want it but the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to Invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the Eighth so utterly extinguished the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First The Priests Monks and Friars being in the height of their Power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their lives which the Gentry and men of good education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common people which for a long time had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly The Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly The Revenue of the Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings hands and by him being disposed of to the most eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a nature quick and severe in the Punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his designs Lastly As to Invasion from abroad if the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre besides the French and Spanish Forces were imployed at that time one against another and though they had been at leasure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniard found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisie of the then Clergy and nothwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was among other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterwards did read it being perhaps written in Short-hand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope's against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his Anger there was besides a Controversiy in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church and because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let the Act of Parliament pass in the reign of King Edward the Sixth the Doctrine of Luther had taken such great root in England that they threw out a great many of the Pope's new Articles of Faith with Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by King Henry the Eighth saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Henry were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not prosecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward and so it had continued to this day excepting the interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democratical men But thus the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of their Ancestors
time they had demanded some of them in a Petition which they called a Petition of Right which nevertheless the King had granted them in a former Parliament though he deprived himself thereby not only of the Power to Levy Money without their consent but also of his ordinary Revenue by Custom of Tonnage and Poundage and of the Liberty to put into Custody such men as he thought likely to disturb the Peace and raise Sedition in the Kingdom As for the men that did this 't is enough to say they were the Members of the last Parliament and of some other Parliaments in the beginning of the Reign of King Charles I. and the end of the Reign of King James To name them all is not necessary farther then the Story shall require most of them were Members of the House of Commons some few also of the Lords But all such as had a great Opinion of their sufficiency in Politicks which they thought was not sufficiently taken notice of by the King B. How could the Parliament when the King had a great Navy and a great number of Train'd Souldiers and all the Magazines of Ammunition in his power be able to begin the War A. The King had these things in his Right but that signifies little when they had the Custody of the Navy and Magazines and with them all the Trained Souldiers and in a manner all the Subjects were by the Preaching of Presbyterian Ministers and the seditious whispering of false and ignorant Politians made his Enemies and when the King could have no Money but what the Parliament should give him which you may be sure should not be enough to maintain his Legal Power which they intended to take from him And yet I think they would never have adventured into the Field but for that unlucky business of imposing upon the Scots who were all Presbyterians our Book of Common Prayer for I believe the English would never have taken well that the Parliament should make War upon the King upon any provocation unless it were in their own defence in case the King should first make War upon them and therefore it behoved them to provoke the King that he might do something that might look like Hostility It hapned in the year 1637. that the King by advice as it is thought of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury sent down a Book of Common Prayer into Scotland not differing in substance from ours nor much in words besides the putting of the word Presbyter for that of Minister commanding it to be used for Conformity to this Kingdom by the Ministers there for an ordinary of Divine Service this being read in the Church at Edinburgh caused such a Tumult there that he that read it had much adoe to escape with his life and gave occasion to the greatest part of the Nobility and others to enter by their own Authority into a Covenant amongst themselves to put down Episcopacy without consulting the King which they presently did animated thereto by their own Confidence or by assurance from some of the Democratical English-men that in former Parliaments had been the greatest opposers of the King's Interest that the King would not be able to raise an Army to chastise them without calling a Parliament which would be sure to favour them for the thing which those Democraticals chiefly then aimed at was to force the King to call a Parliament which he had not done of ten years before as having found no help but hindrance to his designs in the Parliaments he had formerly called Howsoever contrary to their expectation by the help of his better affected Subjects of the Nobility and Gentry he made a shift to raise a sufficient Army to have reduced the Scots to their former obedience if it had proceeded to Battle And with this Army he marched himself into Scotland where the Scotch Army was also brought into the Field against him as if they meant to fight but then the Scotch sent to the King for leave to treat by Commissioners on both sides and the King willing to avoid the destruction of his own Subjects condescended to it the issue was peace and the King thereupon went to Edinburgh and passed an Act of Parliament there to their Satisfaction B. Did he not then confirm Episcopacy A. No but yeilded to the abolishing of it but by the means the English were crossed in their hope of a Parliament but the Democraticals formerly opposers of the King's Interest ceased not to endeavour still to put the two Nations into a War to the end the King might buy the Parliaments help at no luss a price than Soveraignty it self B. But what was the Cause that the Gentry and Nobility of Scotland were so averse from Episcopacy For I can hardly believe that their Consciences were extraordinarily tender nor that there were so very great Divines as to know what was the true Church Discipline established by our Saviour and his Apostles nor yet so much in love with their Ministers as to be over-ruled by them in the Government either Ecclesiastical or Civil for in their lives they were just as other men are Pursuers of their own Interests and Preferments wherein they were not more opposed by the Bishops than by their Presbyterian Ministers A. Truly I do not know I cannot enter into other mens thoughts farther than I am led by the consideration of Human Nature in general Bet upon this consideration I see First That men of Ancient Wealth and Nobility are not apt so to brook that poor Sâ—hollars should as they must when they are made Bishops be their Fellows Secondly That from the emulation of Glory between the Nations they be willing to see their Nation afflicted with Civil War and might hope by aiding the Rebels here to acquire some Power over the English at least so far as to establish here the Presbyterian Discipline which was also one of the points they afterwards openly demanded Lastly They might hope for in the War some great sum of Money as a reward of their assistance bendes great Booty which they afterwards obtained but whatsoever was the cause of their hatred to Bishops the pulling them down was not all they-timed at if it had now that Episcopacy was abolished by Act of Parliament they would have rested satisfied which they did not for after the King was returned to London the English Presbyterians and Democraticals by whose favour they had put down Bishops in Scotland thought it reason to have the assistance of the Scotch for the pulling down the Bishops in England and in order thereunto they might perhaps deal with the Scots secretly to rest unsatisfied with that pacification which they were before contented with howsoever it was not long after the King was returned to London they sent up to some of their friends at Court a certain Paper containing as they apprehended the Articles of the said pacification a false and scandalous Paper which was by the King's Command burnt as I
have heard publickly and so both parties returned to the same Condition as they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose but you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in person he that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a man that wanted not either Valour or Judgement but to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his power but in the King 's B. He was a man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Countrey and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had Fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of Superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in the like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that conquered Carthage by the valour and conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio a man valiant and wise enough but he perished in the Employment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is a foolish Superstition to hope that God has entailed Success in War upon a Nation or Family B. After the pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there but all was to no purpose and to use all the means he could otherwise but the Scots were resolved to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Counsellors they could not otherwise obtain their right but the truth is they were otherwise animated to it by the Democratical and Presbyterian English with a promise of reward and hope of Plunder Some have said that Duke Hamilton also did rather encourage them to than deter them from the Expedition as hoping by the disorder of the two Kingdoms to bring to pass that which he had been formerly accused of to endeavour to make himself King of Scotland but I take this to have been a very uncharitable Censure upon so little ground to judge so uncharitably of a man that afterwards lost his life in seeking to procure the liberty of the King his Master This resolution of the Scots to enter into England being known the King wanting Money to raise an Army against them was now as his Enemies here wished constrained to call a Parliamene to meet at Westminster the 13. of April 1640. B. Me-thinks a Parliament of England if upon any occasion should furnish the King with Money now in a War against the Scots out of an inveterate disaffection to that Nation that had always taken part with their Enemies the French and which always esteemed the Glory of England an abatement of their own A. 'T is indeed commonly seen that Neighbour-Nations envy one anothers Honour and that the less potent bears the greater malice but that hinders them not from agreeing in those things which their common ambition leads them to And therefore the King found for the War but the less help from this Parliament and most of the Members thereof in their ordinary discourses seemed to wonder why the King should make a War upon Scotland and in that Parliament sometime called them their Brethren the Scots but instead of taking the King's business which was the raising of Money into their consideration they fell upon the redressing of Grievances and especially such way of levying Money as in the last intermission of Paâ—liament the King had been forced to use such as were Ship-Money Knighâ—hood and such other Vails as one may call them of the Regal Office which Lawyers had found justifiable by the antâ—ent Records of the Kingdom Besides they fell upon the actions of divers Ministers of State though done by the Kings own Command and Warrant insomuch that before they were called the Money which was necessary for this War if they had given Money as they never meant to do had come too late It is true there was mention of a sum of Money to be given the King by way of bargain for relinquishing his right to Ship-money and some other of his Prerogatives but so seldom and without determining any Sum that it was in vain for the King to hope for any success and therefore on the Fifth of May following he dissolved them B. Where then had the King Money to raise and pay his Army A. He was forced the second time to make use of the Nobility and Gentry who contributed some more some less according to the greatness of their Estates but amongst them all they made up a very sufficient Army B. It seems then that the same men that crossed his business in the Parliament now out of Parliament advanced it all they could what was the reason of that A. The greatest part of the Lords in Parliament and the Gentry throughout England were more affected to Monarchy than to a Popular Government but so as not to endure to hear of the King 's absolute Power which made them in time of Parliament easily to condescend to abridge it and bring the Government to mixt Monarchy as they called it wherein the absolute Sovereignty should be divided between the King the House of Lords and the House of Commons B. But how if they cannot agree A. I think they never thought of that but I am sure they never meant the Sovereignty should be wholly either in one or both Houses besides they were loth to desert the King when he was invaded by Foreigners for the Scots were esteemed by them as a Foreign Nation B. It is strange to me that England and Scotland being but one Island and their Language almost the same and being governed by one King should be thought Foreigners to one another The Romans were Masters of many Nations and to oblige them the more to obey the Edicts of the Law sent unto them by the City of Rome they thought fit to make them all Romans and out of divers Nations as Spain Germany Italy and France to advance some that they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the common People the priviledge of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the contumelies of other Nations where they resided Why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united into one People A. King James at
his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail But for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all Naturalized and have right to buy Land in England to them and their Heirs B. 'T is true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James and was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A I understand not the subtilty of the distinction but upon what Law is that distinction grounded is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal Priviledges and now seeing there be so very few born before King Jame's coming in what greater priviledges had those ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch D. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is required to the Law there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions yet they are all equally Natural Subjects to the King of France And therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Foreigners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scots Army was drawn up to the Fronteers and ready to march into England which also they presently did giving out all the way that their march should be without damage to the Countrey and that their Errand was onely to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had received from such of the Court whose counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above Newcastle where they found some little opposition from a party of the King's Army sent thither to stop them whom the Scots easily mastered and as soon as they were over seized on Newcastle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon the conclusion was that all should be referred to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster the third of November following in the same year 1640. And thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No The Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintained at the King's Charge and the whole Controversie to be desided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as Partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of Reverence to him in the Hearts of People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it be believed that the King made War first upon the Parliament And besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him therefore they resolved to proceed with him like skilful hunters First to single him out by men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open field and then in case he should not seem to turn head to call that making a War against the Parliament And first They called in question such as had either Preached or written in defence of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves whereupon some few Writers and Preachers were Imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they Imprison'd some and some went beyond Sea and whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Books and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other Crimes of high Nature had therefore been censured by the Kings Council in the Star-Chamber and Imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the people would take it for their Persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at Liberty which was accordingly done with great Applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the Kings Right to Ship-money B. Ship-money what 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to Tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritine or not for the Building and Furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaimed against it as an oppression And one of their Members that had been Taxed but 20 Shillings mark the Oppression a Parliament-man of 500 l. a Year Land Taxed at 20 Shillings they were forced to bring it to a Tryal at Law he refusing payment and he was cast again When all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their Opinions concerning the legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged Legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were affrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the same with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their ground for their pretence of Immunity from Contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the Burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and governing it upon any person whatsoever there is little Equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Soveraign not he theirs and as for
believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democracy and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourable laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole World What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls a greater skill in the Scriptures than other men have by reason of their breeding in the Universities and knowledge there gotten of the Latin Tongue and some also of the Greek and Hebrew Tongues wherein the Scriptures were written besides their knowledge of Natural Philosophy which is there publickly taught B. As for the Latin Greek and Hebrew it was once to the Detection of the Roman Fraud and to the Ejection of the Romish Power very profitable or rather necessary But now that is done and we have the Scripture in English and Preaching in English I see no great need of Latin Greek and Hebrew I should think my self better qualified by under standing well the Languages of our Neighbours French Dutch and Italian I think it was never seen in the world before the Power of Popes was setup that Philosophy was much conducing to power in a Commonwealth A. But Philosophy together with Divinity hath very much conduced to the Advancement of the Professors thereof to places of the greatest Authority next to the Authority of Kings themselves in most of the Antient Kingdoms of the world as is manifestly to be seen in the History of those times B. I pray you cite me some of the Authors and places A. First what were the Druids of old time in Britany and France what Authority these had you may see in Caesar Strabo and others and especially in Diodorus Siculus the greatest Antiquary perhaps that ever was who speaking of the Druids which he calls Sarovides in France saith thus There be also amongst them certain Philosophers and Theologians that are exceedingly honoured whom they also use as Prophets These men by their skill in Augury and Inspection into the Bowels of Beasts sacrificed foretel what is to come and have the multitude in obedience to them and a little after It is a custom amongst them that no man may sacrifice without a Philosopher because say they men ought not to present their Thanks to the Gods but by them that know the Divine Nature and are as it were of the same language with them and that all good things ought by such as these to be prayed for B. I can hardly believe that those Druids were very skilful either in Natural Philosophy or Moral A. Nor I for they held and taught the Transmigration of Souls from one Body to another as did Pythagoras which Opinion whether they took from him or he from them I cannot tell What were the Magi in Persia but Philosophers and Astrologers You know how they came to find our Saviour by the Conduct of a Star either from Persia it self or from some Country more Eastward than Judea were not these in great Authority in their Country And are they not in most part of Christendom thought to have been Kings Aegypt hath been thought by many the most Antient Kingdom and Nation of the world and their Priests had the greatest power in Civil Affairs that any Subject ever had in any Nation And what were they but Philosophers and Divines Concerning whom the same Diodorus Siculus saies thus The whole Country of Egypt being divided into three parts the Body of the Priests have One as being of most credit with the people both for their Devotions towards the Gods and also for their Understanding gotten by Education and presently after for generally those men in the greatest Affairs of all the King's Councellors partly Executing and partly Informirg and Advising foretelling him also by their skill in Astrology and Art in the Inspection of Sacrifices the things that are to come and reading to him out of their Holy Books such of the Actions there recorded as are profitable for him to know 'T is not there as in Greece one man or one woman that has thé Priesthood but they are many that attend the Honours and Sacrifices of the Gods and leave the same Imployment to their posterity which next to the King have the greatest Power and Authority Concerning the Judicature amongst the Aegyptians he saith thus From out of the most eminent Cities Hieropolis Thebes and Memphis they chuse Judges which are Council not inferiour to that of Areopagus in Athens or that of the Senate in Lacedoemon when they are met being in number thirty they chuse one from among themselves to be Chief Justice and the City whereof he is sendeth another in his place This Chief Justice wore about his neck hung in a gold Chain a Jewel of precious Stones the name of which Jewel was Truth which when the Chief Justice had put on then began the Pleading c. And when the Judges had agreed on the Sentence then did the Chief Justice put this Jewel of Truth on one of the Pleas. You see now what power was acquired in Civil matters by the conjuncture of Philosophy and Divinity Let us come now to the
and Woods and whatsoever was remaining unpaid of any Subsidy formerly granted Him and the Tunnage and Poundage usually received by the King besides the profit of the Sequestration of great persons whom they pleas'd to Vote Delinquents and the profits of the Bishops Lands which â—troversie understood not the Reasons of either Party and for those that by Ambition were once set upon the Enterprize of changing the Government they cared not much what was Reason and Justice in the Cause but what Strength they might procure by reducing the multitude with Remonstrances from the Parliament-House or by Sermons in the Churches and to their Petitions I would not have had any answer at all more than this That if they would disband their Army and put themselves upon his Mercy they should find Him more Gracious than they expected A. That had been a gallant answer indeed if it had proceeded from Him after some extraordinary great Victory in Battel or some extraordinary assurance of a Victory at last in the whole War B. Why what could have hapned to Him worse than at length He suffered notwithstanding His gentle answer and all His reasonable Declarations A. Nothing but who knew that B. Any Man might see that He was never like to be restor'd to His Right without Victory and such His Statutes being known to the People would have brought to His assistance many more hands than all the arguments of Law or force of Eloquence couched in Declarations and other Writings could have done by far and I wonder what kind of Men they were that hindered the King from taking this Resolution A. You may know by the Declarations themselves which are very long and full of Quotations of Records and of Cases formerly Reported that the Penners of them were either Lawyers by Profession or such Gentlemen as had the ambition to be thought so Besides I told you before that those which were then likeliest to have their counsel asked in this business were averse to absolute Monarchy as also to absolute Democracy or Aristocracy all which Governments they esteemed Tyranny and were in love with Monarchy which they us'd to praise by the name of mixt Monarchy though it were indeed nothing else but pure Anarchy and those Men whose Pens the King most us'd in these Controversies of Law and Politics were such if I have not been misinformed as having been Members of this Parliament had declaim'd against Ship-money and other Extra-Parliamentary Taxes as much as any but when they saw the Parliament grow higher in their demands than they thought they would have done went over to the King's Party B. Who were those A. It is not necessary to name any Man seeing I have undertaken only a short Narration of the Follies and other Faults of Men during this trouble but not by naming of persons to give you or any man else occasion to esteem them the less now the faults on all sides have been forgiven B. When the Business was brought to this height by levying of Soldiers and seizing on the Navy Arms and other Provisions on both sides that no Man was so blind as not to see they were in an estate of War one against another why did not the King by Proclamation or Message according to his undoubted Right Dissolve the Parliament and thereby diminish in some part the Authority of their Levies and of other their unjust Ordinances A. You have forgotten that I told you that the King Himself by a Bill that He passed at the same time when He passed the Bill for the Execution of the Earl of Strafford had given them Authority to hold the Parliament till they should by consent of both Houses dissolve themselves If therefore He had by any Proclamation or Message to the Houses dissolv'd them they would to their former Defamations of His Majesties actions have added this That He was a Breaker of His Word and not only in Contempt of Him have continued their Session but also have made advantage of it to the increase and strengthning of their own Party B. Would not the King 's raising of an Army against them be interpreted as a purpose to dissolve them by force And was it not as great a breach of promise to scatter them by force as to dissolve them by Proclamation Besides I cannot conceive that the passing of that Act was otherwise intended than conditionally so long as they should not ordain any thing contrary to the Sovereign Right of the King which condition they had already by many of their Ordinances broken and I think that even by the Law of Equity which is the unalterable Law of Nature a man that has the Sovereign Power cannot if he would give away the right of any thing which is necessary for him to retain for the good Government of his Subjects unless he do it in express words saying That he will have the Sovereign Power no longer for the giving away that which by consequence only draws the Sovereignty along with it is not I think a giving away of the Sovereignty but an error such as works nothing but an invalidity in the Grant it self And such was the King's passing this Bill for the continuing of the Parliament as long as the Two Houses pleas'd But now that the War was resolv'd on on both sides what needed any more dispute in writings A. I know not what need they had but on both sides they thought it needful to hinder one another as much as they could from levying of Soldiers and therefore the King did set forth Declarations in Print to make the people know that they ought not to obey the Officers of the new Militia set up by the Ordinance of Parliament and also to let them see the Legality of His own Commissions of Array and the Parliament on their part did the like to justifie to the people the said Ordinance and to make the Commission of Array appear unlawful B. When the Parliament were Levying of Soldiers was it not lawful for the King to Levy Soldiers to defend Himself and His Right though there had been no other Title for it but His own preservation and that the name of Commission of Array had never been heard of A. For my part I think there cannot be a better Title for War than the defence of a Man 's own Right but the People at that time thought nothing lawful for the King to do for which there was not some Statute made by Parliament For the Lawyers I mean the Judges of the Courts of Westminster and some few others though but Advocates yet of great Reputation for their skill in the Common Laws and Statutes of England had infected most of the Gentry of England with their Maxims and Cases prejudg'd which they call Precedents and made them think so well of their own knowledge in the Law that they were glad of this occasion to shew it against the King and thereby to gain a Reputation with the Parliament of being good
taken and not long after sent to London but Cromwel marched to Edenburrough and there by the help of the Faction which was contrary to Hamilton's he made sure not to be hindred in his Designs the first whereof was to take away the King's life by the hand of the Parliament whilest these things passed in the North the Parliament Cromwel being away came to it self and recalling their Vote of Non-Addresses sent to the King new Propositions somewhat but not much easier than the former and upon the King's Answer to them they sent Commissioners to treat with him at Neaport in the Isle of Wight where they so long dodged with him about Trisles that Cromwel was come to London before they had done to the Kings destruction for the Army was now wholly at the Devotion of Cromwel who set the Adjutators on work to make a Remonstrance to the House of Commons wherein they require 1. That the King be brought to Justice 2. That the Prince and Duke of York be summon'd to appear at a day appointed and proceeded with according as they should give satisfaction 3. That the Parliament settle the future Government and set a reasonable period to their own sitting and make certain future Parliaments Annual or Biennial 4. That a competent number of the Kings chief Instruments be executed and this to be done both by the House of Commons and by a General agreement of the people testified by their Subscriptions Nor did they stay for an Answer but presently set a Guard of Soldiers at the Parliament House Door and other Soldiers in Westminster-Hast suffering none to go into the House but such as would serve their turns all others were frighted away or made Prisoners and some upon divers Quarrels suspended About ninety of them because they had refused to vote against the Scots and others because they had voted against the Vote of Non-Addresses and the rest were a House for Cromwel The Phanaticks also in the City being countenanced by the Army pack a new Common-Council whereof any forty was to be above the Mayor and their first work was to frame a Petition for Justice against the Xing which Tichboures the Mayor involving the City in the Regicide delivered to the Parliament At the same time with like violence they took the King from Newport in the Isle of Wight to Hurst Castle till things were ready for His Tryal the Parliament in the mean time to avoid Perjury by an Ordinance declar'd void the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance and presently after made another to bring the King to his Tryal B. This is a piece of Law that I understood not before that when many men swear singly they may when they are Assembled if they please absolve themselves A. The Ordinance being drawn up was brought into the House where after three several Readings it was Voted That the Lords and Commons of England Assembled in Parliament do declare That by the Fundamental Laws of the Realm it is Treason in the King of England to levy War against the Parliament And this Vote was sent up to the Lords and they denying their consent the Commons in Anger made another Vote That all Members of Committees should proceed and act in any Ordinance whether the Lords concurr'd or no and that the People under God are the Original of all just Power and that the House of Commons have the Supreme-Power of the Nation and that whatsoever the House of Commons Enacted is Law All this passed nemine contradicente B. These Propositions fight not only against a King of England but against all the Kings of the World It were good they thought on 't but yet I believe that under God the Original of all Laws was in the People A. But the People for them and their heirs by consent and Oaths have long ago put the Supreme Power of the Nation into the hands of their Kings for them and their Heirs and consequently into the hands of this King their known and lawful heir B. But does not the Parliament represent the People A. Yes to some purposes as to put up Petitions to the King when they have leave and are griev'd but not to make a grievance of the Kings Power Besides the Parliament never represents the People but when the King calls them Is it to be imagined that he calls a Parliament to depose himself Put the case every County and Burrough should have given for a Benevolence a sum of Money and that every County meeting in their County Court or else-where and that every Burrough in their Town-Hall should have chosen certain men to carry their several sums respectively to the Parliament had not these men represented the whole Nation B. Yes no doubt A. Do you think the Parliament would have thought it reasonable to be called to an account by this Representative B. No sure and yet I must confess the Case is the same A. This Ordinance contained First a Summary of the Charge against the King in substance this That not content with the Incroachments of his Predecessors upon the freedom of the People he had design'd to set up a Tyrannical Power and to that end had rais'd and maintain'd in the Land a Civil War against the Parliament whereby the Country hath been miserably wasted the Publick Treasure exhausted thousands of people murdered and infinite other mischiefs committed Secondly A Constitution passed of a High Court of Justice that is of a certain number of Commissioners of whom any twenty had power to try the King and proceed to Sentence according to the Merit of the Cause and see it speedily executed The Commissioners met on Saturday January 20. in Westminster-Hall and the King was brought before them sitting in a Chair He heard the Charge read but denied to plead to it either Guilty or not Guilty till he should know by what lawful Authority he was brought thither The President told him that the Parliament affirm'd their own Authority and the King persevered in his refusal to plead though many words passed between him and the President yet this is the sum of all on Monday January 22. the Court met again and the Sollicitor moved that if the King persisted in denying the Authority of the Court the Charge might be taken pro confesso but the King still denyed their Authority They met again January 23. and then the Sollicitor moved the Court for Judgment whereupon the King was requir'd to give his Final Answer which was again a denyal of their Authority Lastly They met again January 27. where the King then desir'd to be heard before the Lords and Commons in the Painted Chamber and promising after that to abide the Judgment of the Court the Commissioners retir'd for half an hour to consider of it and then returning caused the King again to be brought to the Bar and told him that what he propos'd was but another denyal of the Courts Jutisdiction and that if he had no more to say they
would proceed to Judgment Then the King answering that he had no more to say the President began a long Speech in justification of the Parliaments Proceedings producing the Examples of many Kings kill'd or depos'd by wicked Parliaments Ancient and Modern in England Scotland and other parts of the World All which he endeavoured to justifie from this only Principle that the People have the Supreme Power and the Parliament is the People This Speech ended the Sentence of Death was read and the same upon Tuesday after January the 30. executed at the Gate of his own Palace of White-Hall He that can delight in reading how villanously he was used by the Souldiers between the Sentence and Execution may go to the Chronicle it self in which he shall see what courage patience wisdom and goodness was in this Prince whom in their Charge the Members of that wicked Parliament styled Traytor Tyrant and Murderer The King being dead the same day they made an Act of Parliament That whereas several pretences might be made to the Crown c. it is Enacted by this present Parliament and Authority of the same that no Person shall presume to declare proclaim or publish or any way promote Charles Stuart Son of Charles late King of England commonly called Prince of Wales or any other Person to be King of England and Ireland c. B. Seeing the King was dead and his Successors barr'd by what declar'd Authority was the Peace maintain'd A. They had in their anger against the Lords formerly declar'd the Supreme Power of the Nation to be in the House of Commons and now on February the fifth they Vote the House of Lords to be useless and dangerous And thus the Kingdom was turn'd into a Democracy or rather an Oligarchy for presently they made an Act That none of those Members who were secluded for opposing the Vote of Non-Addresses should ever be re-admitted And these were commonly called the Secluded Members and the rest were by some styled a Parliament and by others a Rump I think you need not now have a Catalogue either of the Vices or of the Crimes or of the Pollies of the greatest part of them that composed the Long-Parliament than which greater cannot be in the world What greater Vices than Irreligion Hypocrisie Avarice and Cruelty which have appeared so eminently in the actions of Presbyterian Members and Presbyterian Ministers What greater Crimes than Blasphemy and killing Gods Anointed which was done by the hands of the Indipendents but by the folly and first Treason of the Presbyterians who betrayed and sold him to his Murderers Nor was it a little folly in the Lords not to see that by the taking away of the Kings Power they lost withall their own Priviledges or to think themselves either for number or judgment any way a considerable assistance to the House of Commons And for those men who had skill in the Laws it was no great sign of understanding not to perceive that the Laws of the Land were made by the King to oblige his Subjects to Peace and Justice and not to oblige himself that made them Lastly and generally all men are Fools which pull down any thing which does them good before they have set up something better in its place He that would set up Democracy with an Army should have an Army to maintain it but these men did it when those men had the Army that were resolv'd to pull it down To these follies I might add the follies of those five men which out of their reading of Tully Seneca and other Antimonarchicks think themselves sufficient Politicks and shew their discontents when they are not called to the management of the State and turn from one side to the other upon every neglect they fancy from the King or his Enemies A. YOU have seen the Rump in possession as they believ'd of the Supreme Power over the two Nations of England and Ireland and the Army their Servant though Cromwel thought otherwise serving them diligently for the advancement of his own purpose I am now therefore to shew you their proceedings B. Tell me first how this kind of Government under the Rump or Relick of a House of Commons is to be call'd A. 'T is doubtless an Oligarchy for the Supreme Authority must needs be in one man or in more if in one it is Monarchy the Rump therefore was no Monarchy if the Authority were in more than one it was in all or in sewer than all when in all it is Democraty for every man may enter into the Assembly which makes the Soveraign Court which they could not do here It is therefore manifest the Authority was in a few and consequently the State was an Oligarchy B. Is it not impossible for a people to be well Governed that are to obey more Masters than one A. Both the Rump and all other Soveraign Assemblies if they have but one Voice though they be many Men yet are they but one Person for contrary Commands cannot consist in one and the same Voice which is the Voice of the greatest part and therefore they might govern well enough if they had honesty and wit enough The first Act of the Rump was the Exclusion of those Members of the House of Commons which had been formerly kept out by Violence for the precuring of an Ordinance for the King's Tryal for these men had appear'd against the Ordinance of Non-Addresses and therefore to be excluded because they might else be an Impediment to their future Designs B. Was it not rather because in the Authority of few they thought the fewer the better both in regard of their shares and also of a nearer approach in every one of them to the Dignity of a King A. Yes certainly what was their Principal End B. When these were put out why did not the Counties and Burroughs chuse others in their Places A. They could not do that without Order from the House After this they constituted a Council of forty persons which they termed a Council of State whose Office was to execute what the Rump should command B. When there was neither King nor House of Lords they could not call themselves a Parliament for a Parliament is a meeting of the King Lords and Commons to confer together about the Businesses of the Common-Wealth With whom did the Rump confer A. Men may give to their Assembly what Name they please what signification soever such Name might formerly have had and the Rump took the Name of Parliament as most suitable to their purpose and such a Name as being Venerable among the people for many hundred years had countenanced and sweetened Subsidies and other Levies of Money otherwise very unpleasant to the Subject They took also afterwards another name which was Custodes Libertatis Angliae which Title they used only in their Writs issuing out of the Courts of Justice B. I do not see how a Subject that is tyed to the Laws can have more
who as they were not much molested in points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesom to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean upon the Gunpowder Treason and upon that account the Papists in England have been looked upon as men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Pope's Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plesis and Dr Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Pope's Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the World And I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendom never perceived it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner but if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the Eighth did Head of the Church within their own respective dominions but not agreeing they let his power continue every one hopeing to make use of it when there should be cause against his neighbour B. Now as to the other Distemper by Presbyterians How came their Power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversy between the Papist and Reformed Churches could not chuse but make every man to the best of his power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongue Whereas before the Translation of them was not allowed nor any man to read them but such as had express License so to do for the Pope did concerning the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was Translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain Number of Chapters a Day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so What other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me Sealed up in Hebrew Greek and Latin and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the Salvation of my Soul and the Churches peace A. I confess this License of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late King's Reign and did then appear to the disturbance of the Commonwealth but to return to the Story Those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was professed and governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better Statesmen in points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries and in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but it was defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not only the Citizens of Londen were almost all of them at their Devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the conâ—urrence of a great many Gentlemen thaâ— did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and aâ—â— these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church-Government Canons and Common-Prayer-Book so did the other make them in love with Democracy by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their discourse and communication with people in the Countrey continually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyranny leaving the people to collect of themselves that this Tyranny was the present Government of the State And as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Q. Eliz. and though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the chief Leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less learned and the Gentlemen envying the Privy-Council whom they thought less wise than themselves For 't is a hard matter for men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any ability requisite for the Government of a Commonwealth especially having read the Glorious Histories and the Sententious Politicks of the Antient Popular Government of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular Government though no Tyrant