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A02848 An ansvver to the first part of a certaine conference, concerning succession, published not long since vnder the name of R. Dolman Hayward, John, Sir, 1564?-1627. 1603 (1603) STC 12988; ESTC S103906 98,388 178

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parlament vvas king Richard deposed vvher did the states assemble vvhen did they send for the earle of Richmond to put him down by what decree by vvhat messengers Ther is no answer to be made but one and that is to confesse ingenuously that you say vntrue that it is your vsuall manner of deceiuing to impute the act of a few vnto all to make euerie euent of armes to be a iudicial proceeding of the common wealth For it is manifest that the earle of Richmond had his first strēgth from the king of France that after his discent into England more by halfe both of the nobilitie common people did stand for king Richard then stirre against him You adioyne for a speciall consideration that most excellent princes succeeded these vvhom you affirme to be deposed I vvill nor extenuate the excellencie of any Prince but I hould it more vvorthie to be considered that these disorders spent England a sea of bloud In the ende you conclude that all these depriuations of Princes vvere lawfull Nay by your fauour if you sweat out your braines you shall neuer euince that a fact is lawfull beecause it is done Yes you say for othervvise two great inconueniences vvould follow one that the actes of those that vvere put in their place should be voide and vniust the other that none vvho now pretend to these Crownes could haue any tytle ●or that they descend from them vvho succeeded those that were depriued You deserue now to be basted with words vvell stiped in vineger and salt but I will be more charitable vnto you and leaue bad speaches to black mouthes For the first the possession of the crowne purgeth all defects and maketh good the actes of him that is in authoritie although he vvanteth both capacitie and right And this doth Vlpian expressely determine vpon respect as he saith to the common good For the other point the successors of an vsurper by course and compasse of time may prescribe a right if they vvho haue receiued wrong discontinue both pursuit and claime P●normitane saith Successor in dignitate potest praescribere non abstante vitio sui praedecessor is A successor in dignitie may prescribe notwithstāding the fault of his predecessor otherwise causes of vvar should be immortall and titles perpetually remaine vncertaine Now then for summarie collection of all that you haue saide your protestations are good your proofes light and loose your conclusions both dangerous false The first doth sauour of God the second of man the third of the diuell To the fourth Chapter which beareth tytle Wherein consisteth principally the lawfulnesse of proceeding against Princes which in the former Chapter is mencioned What interest Princes haue in their subiects goods or liues How oathes doe binde or may bee broken of subiects towards their Princes and finally the difference betweene a good king and a tyrant HEere you cloase with Billaye vpon two points first vvhether a king is subiect to any law Secondly whether all temporalities are in proprietie the Kings but because these questions doe little perteine to our principall controuersie I vvill not make any stay vpon them it suffiseth that vve may say vvith Seneca Omnia rex imperio possidet singuli domino The king hath empire euery man his particular proprietie in all things After this you proceede further to make good that the Princes before mencioned vvere lawfully deposed and that by all law both diuine and humane naturall nationall and positiue Your cause is so badd that you haue need to set a bould countenance vpon it But what deuine lawes doe you alleage You haue largely beefore declared you saye that GOD doth approoue the forme of gouernmēt vvhich euery common wealth doth choose as also the conditions and statutes which it doth appoint vnto her prince I must now take you for a naturall lyer when you wil not forbeare to bely your selfe you neuer proued any such matter the contrary is euident that sometimes entire gouernments often customes statutes of state very commonly accidentall actiōs are so vnnaturall vniust that otherwise then for a punishment and curse wee cannot say that God doth approue thē We haue often heard that the Church cannot erre in matters of Faith but that in matter of gouerment a cōmon wealth cannot erre it was neuer I assure my selfe published before But let vs suppose supposall is free that God alloweth that forme of gouernment which euery common wealth doth choose doth it therfore follow that by all deuine lawes princes may be deposed by their subiects these broken peeces will neuer bee squared to forme strong argument But wherefore doe not you produce the deuine canons of scripture surely they abhorre to speake one word in your behalfe yea they doe giue expresse sentence against you as I haue shewed before Well let this passe among your least escapes in making God either the author or aider of rebelliō you alledge no other humane law but that princes are subiect vnto law and order I vvill not denie but ther is a duty for princes to performe but how proue you that their subiects haue power to depose them if they faile In this manner As the common vvealth gaue them their authoritie for the common good so it may also take the same away if they abbuse it But I haue manifested before both that the people may so graunt away their authoritie that they cannot resume●t also that few princes in y● world hold their state by graunt of the people I will neuer heereafter esteeme a mans valure by his voice Your braue boast of all lawes diuine humane naturall nationall and positiue is disolued into smoake you busie your selfe as the Poets wright of Morpheus in presenting shadowes to men a sleepe But the chiefest reason you say the very ground and foundation of all Soft what reason what ground if you haue alreadie made proofe by all lawes humane and deuine naturall nationall and positiue what better reason what surer ground will you bring Tush these interruptions The chiefest reason you say the very ground and foundation of all is that the common wealth is superiour to the prince and that the authoritie which the prince hath is not absolute but by the way of mandate and commission from the common wealth This is that which I expected all this time you haue hetherto approached by stealing steps you are now come cloase to the wall do but mount into credit and the fort is your owne You affirmed at the first that princes might be deposed for disabilitie then for misgouernmen● now vpon pleasure and at will For they who haue giuen authoritie by cōmission doe alwaies retaine more then they graunt are not excluded either frō commanding or iudging by way of preuention concurrence or evocation euen in those cases which they haue giuen in charge The reason is declared by Vlpian because hee to whom iurisdiction is committed
delayed to come into England they all fell rather not to denie then to acknowledge Harold for their king Take now which of these reports you please for all do serue to your purpose alike Hardicanutus after the death of Harold came out of Denmarke into Englande and the people hauing their courages broken with bondage were easie to entertaine the strongest pretender But after his death diuers of the Nobilitie especially Godwine Earle of Kent rising into hope to shake off theyr shoulders the importable yoake of the Danes aduaunced Edwarde the sonne of Etheldred to the Crowne as being the next of the race of the Saxon Kings though not in blood yet at hand for Edward the outlawe his elder brother was then in Hungarie and feare being the only knot that had fastened the people to the Danish Kings that once vntied they all scattered from them like so many birdes whose cage had bene broken Edward being dead Harold the sonne of Godwine vsurped the kingdome for as Malmesburie saith By extorted faith frō the nobilitie he fastned vpon the Crowne a forceable gripe Henry Huntington also and out of him Polydore doe write that vpon confidence of his power he inuaded the Crowne which vsurpation gaue both encouragement and successe to the enterprise of the Normanes This short passage of Historie you doe defile with so many vntruthes that it seemeth you haue as naturall a gift to falsifie as to eate drinke or sleepe But where you write that William the Conqueror formed any title by cōsent of the realme you grow into the degree of ridiculous We finde that he pretended the institution of king Edward which had neither probabilitie norforce and that he was nearer to him in blood then Harold the vsurper but that hee euer pretended the election of the people it is your own clowted cōceit For whē he had rowted the English armie in the field when hee had sacked their Townes harried their Villages slain much people and bent his sworde against the brests of the rest what free election could they then make Your selfe acknowlede also in another place that hee came to the Crowne by dinte of sworde and at his death his owne conscience constrained him to confesse that hee tooke it without right And in that the Pope and the French King fauoured his enterprise it is not materiall this was not the first iniustice which they haue assisted Neither was it the Popes hallowed banner as you affirme but the bowe and the arrowe the only weapon of aduantage long time after to this Nation whereby hee did obtaine the victorie One helpe hee had also within the Realme for that King Edward had aduanced diuers Normans to high place both of dignitie and charge who gaue vnto him muche secret both incouragement and assistance in his attempt And thus in all these turbulent times you are so farre from finding fiue or sixe that you are short of any one who was made King by free authoritie of the people King William Rufus made no other title to the Crowne but the testament of his Father For often vse hath confirmed it for lawe that a Victor may freely dispose of the succession of that state which hee hath obtained by the purchase of his sword The conquerer disinherited his eldest son Robert for that knitting with Philip King of France he inuaded wasted and spoiled Normandie and ioyned in open battell against his father wherein the father was vnhorsed and wounded and brought to a desperate distresse of his life Herevpon he cast forth a cruel curse against his sonne which he could neuer be entreated to reuoke in so much as vpō his death-bed he said of him that it was a miserable countrey which should bee subiect to his dominion for that he was a proud and foolish knaue to be long scourged with cruell fortune And wheras you write that at the time of his fathers death he was absent in the warre of Hierusalem it is a very negligent vntruth But it is an idle vntruth that you write that Henry the first had no other title to the crowne but the election of the people He neuer was elected by the people he neuer pretended any such title Nubrigensis after him Polydore do report that he laid his title because he was borne after his father was king Malmesburie saith Henry the youngest sonne of William the great being an Infant according to the desires and wishes of all men was excellently brought vp because he alone of all the sonnes of William was princely borne and the kingdome seemed to appertaine vnto him He was borne in England in the third yeare after his father entred into it And this was the like controuersie to that which Herodotus reporteth to haue happened betweene the sonnes of Darius the sonne of Hystaspis king of Persia when hee prepared an expedition against the Grecians and Aegyptians because by the lawes of Persia the king might not enter into enterprise of armes before he had declared his successor Darius had three children before he was king by his first wife the daughter of Gobris and after he attained the kingdome he had other foure by Atossa the daughter of Cyrus Artabazanes was eldest of the first sort Xerxes of the second Artabazanes alledged that he was eldest of all the Kings children and that it was the custome amongst all men that the eldest should enioy the principalitie Xerxes alledged that he was begotten of Atossa the daughter of that king by whose puissance the Persians had gained not onely libertie but also power Before Darius had giuen sentence Demaratus the sonne of Aristo cast out of his kingdome of Sparta came vnto Xerxes and aduised him to alledge further that he was the eldest sonne of Darius after he was king and that it was the custome of Sparta that if any man had children in priuate estate and afterward an other sonne when he was king this last sonne should be his successor vpon which ground Darius pronounced in the behalfe of Xerxes The same historie is reported by Iustine and touched also by Plutarch although they differ both from Herodotus and one frō the other in some points of circumstance Hereto also agreeth that which Iosephus writeth in reprehending king Herod for excluding Alexander and Aristobulus his sonnes and appointing Antipater borne to him in priuate estate to succeed in his kingdome Many great Lawiers haue subscribed their opinions to this kinde of title and namely Pet. Cynus Baldus Albericus Raph. Fulgosius Rebuffus and Anto. Corsetta deliuereth it for a common opinion But with this exception if the kingdome be acquired by any other title then by succession according to proximitie in bloud for in this case because the dignitie is inherent in the stocke the eldest sonne shall succeede although he were borne before his father was King And therefore Plutarch writeth that after the
representeth his person who gaue commission and not his owne Herevpon Alexander Panormitane Innocentius and Felinus doe affirme that they may cast their commissioners out of power when they please because as Paulus saith a man can iudge no longer when he forbiddeth who gaue authoritie Further all states take denomination from that part wherin the supreme power is setled as if it bee in one prince it is called a monarchie if in many of highest ranck then it is an aristocracie if in the people then a democracie Whervpon it followeth if the people are superiour to the prince if the prince hath no power but by commission from them that then all estates are populare for we are not so much to respect who doth execute this high power of state as from whō immediately it is deriued Hereto let vs ad that which you haue said in another place that in populare gouernments there is nothing but sedition trouble tumults outragies iniustices vpon euery light occasiō thē we shall perceiue first that you want the art of a wise deceiuer not to be entangled in your tale secondly that this is meere poison which the diuell hath dropt out of your pen to infect christian coūtries with disobedience disorder In a word to the contrary of this your impudent vntruth our laws do acknowledge supreme authority in the prince within the realme dominions of england neither can subiects beare thēselues either superior or equall to their soueraigne or attempt violence either against his persō or estate but as well the ciuill law as the particulare lawes customes of all countries do adiudge it high hainous treasō I will speake now without passion what reason haue we to accept your idle talk for a kind of authority against the iudgement lawes of most nations in the world You proceede that the power of a prince is giuen to him by the common wealth with such conditions exceptions as if the same be not kept the people stand free That the prince receiueth his power vnder plain conditiōs you go about to proue afterward now you hold on that in all mutual contracts if one side recede from promise the other remaineth not obliged this you proue by two rules of the law The first is he doth in vaine require promise to be kept of another man to whom he refuseth to performe that which he promised the other is a man is not bound to performe his oath if on the other part that be not performed in respect whereof he did sweare Poore fellow had you ben as conuersant in the light of law and cleere course of iustice as you are in the smoake dust of some corner of a colledge you wold neuer haue concluded so generally so confidētly vpō any of the rules of law which are subiect for the most part vnto many exceptions Alexander Felinus doe assigne fiue fallencies vnto these rules Socinus giueth the cootrarie rule to him that breaketh his faith or oath faith ought to bee kept thē restraineth it with seauē limitations But all affirme that in those offices which are mutuall between any persōs by the law of nature or of God as between the father the child the husband the wife the master the seruant the prince and the subiect although the same be further assured by promise or by oath the breach of duty in the one is no discharge vnto the other And therfore if the father performeth not his duty towards his children they are not thereby acquitted both of the obedience care which God nature exacteth of them howsoeuer Solon in his lawes discharged children from nourishing their parents if they did not traine them in some trade wherby they might acquire their liuing Much lesse are subiects exempted from obedience if the prince either erre or be defectiue in gouernment because the like respect is not due vnto parents as vnto Princes as I haue somewhat touched before insomuch as a sonne that beareth authoritie hath right both to commaūd and compell the father This was declared among the Romanes by that which Plutarch Liuie Valerius and Gellius doe report of Q. Fabius to whome being consull when Fabius Maximus his father who had bene consull the yeare before did approch sitting vpon his horse the sonne commanded him by a sergeant to allight the father not onely obeyed but highly commended both the courage and iudgement of his sonne in maintaining the maiestie which he did beare and in preferring a publicke both dutie and authoritie beefore priuate Vpon those examples Paulus the lawier did wright that publick discipline was in higher estimation among the Romane parents then the loue of children After an impertinēt discourse that vpon diuers cōsiderations an oath ought not to be performed you annex another cause wherefore subiects may withdraw their alleageāce that is when it should turne to the notable dammage of the common wealth and both these you affirme to be touched in the depriuation of Childeric king of France But I regard not what was touched in the depriuation of Childeric I haue answered to that in the chapter next before I require either arguments or authoritie of more tough temper Well then let vs turne back the leafe and there we shall finde a rule of the law because by rules onely you will beat down rule In euill promises it is not expedient to keepe faith Which is also confirmed by a sentence of Isidorus In euill promises break your word in a dishonest oath change your purpose Well fare your vvits good soule doe you accompt the promise of obedience euill not so I suppose you will say but it turneth to be euill vvhen it turneth to the notable detrimēt of the commō wealth It is one of your peculiar guifts the further you goe the more impious you declare your selfe For if you take the word euill in noe higher sence then for detriment and damage it would follow vpon your rule that a man vvere no further tyed to his promise then the performance thereof were aduantageable vnto him You vvould inforce also that if the father doth dissipate his patrimoniall estate and runne a course to ruine his familie the children and the wife may thervpon disauow their duties But if vvee take a true touch of this point we shall finde that the vices of any Prince are not sufficient of themselues to ouerthrow a state except therevpon rebellions be raised vvhich vvill draw all things into confusion For there is no Prince vvhich either hath liued or can almost be imagined to liue in so little sence of humanitie but generally he both fauoureth and maintaineth some order of iustice onely against particuler persons some of them haue violently bene carried by the tempest of their passion vvhereby notwithstanding the inordinate desires of one man can not possibly reach to
and his house and not in obedience to Gods decree we cannot excuse them from offence for which it turned to their destructiō For hereupon first they were separated both from the place maner of the true worship of God thē there arose vnappeasable war betweene them the tribe of Iudah then insolencies following disorders they were neuer long time free from conspiracies diuisions and tumults by which meanes being drained both of wealth and inhabitants and reduced to a naked weaknesse they were lastly caried captiue into diuerse farre countries and strangers were sent to inhabite their cities I must here also obserue a few of your interpretations wherein your boldnesse is not limited with any bounds It is to be noted you say that before Rehoboam went to Shechem to be admitted by the people he was not accompted true King I desire therefore that you would satisfie vs in these places following Before Rehoboam went to Shechem the Scripture saith that Salomon died and was buried and Rehoboam his sonne raigned in his stead Againe after the defection of the ten tribes it is sayd that in the cities of Iudah Rehoboam did raigne still implying thereby that in the other cities he raigned before Againe they are sayd to haue rebelled against the house of Dauid And lastly Rehoboam raised all the strength of Iudah and Beniamin to bring the kingdome againe vnto him Further you write that ten tribes refused to admit Rehoboam but the Scripture saith that they rebelled What did God only allow hereof after it was done did he only permit the people to do it the Scripture testifieth that it was his decree that it was his deed and that he declared his will by Ahijah the Prophet during the life of Salomon and for his sins But these speciall warrants do not constitute a law they serue onely to make good the particular actions for which they are directed and not to iustifie another the like Lastly S. Paule saith that all things happened to the Iewes in figure vpon which place diuerse expositors haue noted that the state of the Iewes was a figure of the Church of Christ but that it was an example and patterne of all other states that should ensue it shall be ranged among your cast conceipts I refer me now to the iudgement of any man who taketh not pleasure to beguile himselfe whether you do not by art trumpery manifestly abuse vs partly by incapacitie partly by deceipt either corrupting or confounding whatsoeuer you take in hand Your humor both discontented and vnquiet hath armed your mind with bloudy desires which haue edged you on to put fewell to those slames which you shold endeuour to quench though it were with your bloud I will not stand vpon the particular examples of Spaine as well for that the matter is both tedious and to litle purpose as also for that we haue small conformitie with the customes of that nation Onely thus much in generall We acknowledge that in auncient times the kingdome of Spaine was electiue and therfore your examples drawne from thence are nothing pertinent The examples of later times are both few and vniust caried onely by faction and by force as Garabay testifieth of your example of Aurelio and as by the example of D. Sancho el Brauo I haue declared before But you accompt faction to be the Common-wealth and violence Iustice when it may make to the furtherance of your affaires The Historie of D. Berenguela I will briefly report rather for the respect which guided the Castilians then that I allow it for right which they did Henry had two sisters Donna Blanch the eldest maried to Lewes the eight King of Fraunce and Berenguela the yongest maried to Alphonso king of Leon. Henry dying without issue the Castilians feared if they should submit themselues vnto Blanch that their state being lesse then the state of Fraunce would be made a member thereof and gouerned as a Prouince and not as a kingdome And therefore they did rather chuse to professe allegeāce to the Lady Berenguela by which meanes the kingdome of Leon was afterwards annexed vnto Castile to the great encrease both of dignitie and assurance to them both I haue followed herein your owne Authors not being ignorant that others of better name do write that Berenguela was the eldest sister as I shall haue occasiō hereafter to declare but for the present let it be as you please and let vs weigh our owne wisdomes not only in straining but in forging titles to incurre those mischiefes which the Castilians reiected a lawfull title to auoid And this was also one of the motiues of the reuolt of Portugale which is your last example although it had also as Garabay writeth a concurrence of right For Ferdinand king of Portugale by his procurators the Bishop of Ebora and others did both contract and solemnize espousals with Elianor daughter of Peter king of Aragon But being entred into war with Henry king of Castile finding himself at some disaduātage he forsooke the king of Arragōs daughter cōtracted himself to Elianor daughter to the king of Castile vpō very beneficiall conditions for his state Afterward falling into fancy with one of his subiects named Elianor Telles de Meneses wife to a noble man called Lorenzo Vasques de Acun̄a he tooke her as his wife and enforced her husband to auoid the Realme had by her one only daughter named Beatrix who was ioyned in mariage to Iohn king of Castile After the death of the king of Portugale her father the king of Castile in the right of his wife laid claime to that realme was accordingly acknowledged by the chiefe of the nobility and Prelats and in particular by D. Iohn maister of Auis her fathers base brother who was then the most forward man in her fauour But afterwards falling into quarrell and hauing slaine the Count de Oren he stirred the people against the Queene cōpelled her to quit the city And after diuerse outrages and murthers committed vpon the Bishop of Lisbone an Abbesse and many others hee was first made gouernour of Portugall and then proceeding further in an assembly of his partie gathered at Coimbra he was made King Garrabay writeth that the chiefest obiection against Beatrix was because her mother was not King Ferdinands lawfull wife And I beleeue you also that they had a reflexe not to loose the dignitie of their kingdome as now they haue done and be made subiect to the cruell both auarice and ambition of a more potent state To the eighth Chapter which is entituled Of diuers other examples out of the states of France and England for proofe that the next in bloud are sometimes put backe from succession and how God hath approued the same with good successe YOur examples of France to which Nation wee are more neare both in scituation and lawes I will runne ouer with a swift course Of the