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A66889 An answer to the gentleman's letter to his friend shewing that bishops may be judges in causes capital. Womock, Laurence, 1612-1685. 1680 (1680) Wing W3333; ESTC R34097 18,918 24

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the Bishops Protestation nor the Temporal Lords Negative Voice nor the Kings Le Roy S'avisera are sufficient to hold the Ballance even when the Commons depart from the Principles of Honour Justice and Loyalty And as they never pretended to be infallible so have they not always been observed to be so calm and steddy in their Proceedings as becomes the Wisdom and Honour of so Grave and Solemn a Convention In 50 E. 3. they desired that the Lord Latimer the King's Chamberlain for pretended Oppression might lose all his Offices and be no longer of the King's Council which the King granted yet afterwards 51 E. 3. at the Request of the Commons themselves he was restored to all and declared innocent This Gentleman was so sensible of this their Prejudice and Rashness attended with so much Levity that he could not pass it by without setting some Remark upon it p. 12. But when Justice Loyalty and Honour governs their Debates and Resolutions we may put the King and to use his own Illustration all the Three Estates of Parliament into the same Nest of Boxes and yet their respective Interests which is the Interest of the whole Kingdom interwoven will be secure and preserv'd inviolate But the Gentleman tells us further That if the Bishops be one of the Three Estates nothing can pass in Parliament without them This may be generally true among States coordinate without a Sovereign Head over them and when a Rival is set up to give Check-mate to the Sovereign Authority as it was in the time of Hen. 8. mentioned by this Gentleman at p. 92. when the Question was To whom the Supream Jurisdiction did belong to the King or to the Pope In the time of such a Competition the Crown is obliged to secure it self against such an Usurpation and does most justly abandon the Clergy that sides with it But 2. If Acts have passed without the Bishops they have likewise done so as by him is said sometimes without the Commons Egbert who first united the Seven Kingdoms of the Saxons under the common Name of England he caus'd to be conven'd at London His Bishops and Peers of the highest Rank to advise upon some course against the Danish Pyrates this was a Military Business and Bloud-shed might have ensued upon the Stubbornness of those Pyrates who infested the Sea-Coast of England And King Ethelwolph in Parliament or Assembly of his States at Winchester Anno 855. These Great Councils were the Parliaments of those Times Let. p. 72. by the Advide and Counsel of the Bishops and Nobility confirm'd unto the Clergy the Tenth Part of all mens Goods and Ordered that the Tythe so confirmed unto them should be free from all Secular Services and Impositions And Wingate in his Abridgment and the World Parliament tells us out of the Mirrour of Justices of an Act in Aelfred's Time That Parliaments should be held twice a year and oftner if need requir'd But note saith he This was by the King and Lords only And I believe we may observe the like practice among some of this Gentleman's Precedents But it is much more satisfactory when the Laws are Enacted by the Sovereign Authority at the Request of the Commons with the consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal that is by the King with the joint Assent of the Three Estates of Parliament let us not therefore dissolve or drive them away when we have them That which is alledged out of Bishop Jewel and Crompton p. 93. to 98. I refer you to the Answer of the Quodlibetical Question for your satisfaction That King James was of this Judgment is evident from the very Words and Speech produced by this Gentleman to the contrary The Parliament saith he is composed of a Head and a Body The Head is the King the Body are the Members of the Parliament This Body again is subdivided into two parts the Upper and the Lower House the Upper House compounded partly of Nobility Temporal men who are Hereditable Counsellors to the High Court of Parliament by the Honour of their Creation and Lands and partly of Bishops Spiritual men who are likewise by virtue of their Place and Dignity Counsellors ad vitam Life-Renters of this Court. The other House is compos'd of Knights for the Shires and Gentry and Burgesses for the Towns Here we see though the King makes but Two Houses yet he does clearly distinguish them into Three Estates though he does not call them so To what is said by Stephen Gardiner and Finch I oppose the Testimonies of Livy Selden Cooke and Sheppard To the Expressions of the Late King of B. Memory in his Answer to the 19 Propos when he was fluctuating in the midst of a Storm gathering round about him and to the Declaration of the Commons 2 H. 4. n. 32. I might Answer That the Upper House in a large sense consisting of Lords Spiritual and Temporal sitting and voting together may be taken for One Estate But taken precisely and in a strict sense as their Concerns and Interests are distinct so they are clearly Two But to those Authorities I shall rather oppose the Act of Recognition 1 Eliz. 3. Where the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and the Commons in that Parliament Assembled do Recognize the Queens Majesty to be their true lawful and undoubted Sovereign Lieged Lady and Queen in these words We Your most Faithful Loving and Obedient Subjects representing the Three Estates of this Realm which evidently sheweth the Queen was not there esteemed one So when the Funerals of Hen. 5. were ended the Three Estates did Assembled and Acknowledge his Son King To think to elude such Evidence by saying as this Gentleman does in the like case that such Expressions are delivered obiter upon the By is to make what we fancy not in any Statute utterly void and of none effect The next Question concerns the Bishops Peerage For the Affirmative we have these things to say 1. That the Prelates are called by the same Writ for Form and Manner with that directed to the Temporal Barons so the Answer to the Quodlibetical Question That they Sit and Vote there by a double capacity as Bishops first in reference to their several Sees and secondly as Peers in respect of their Baronies Hereupon they affirm to the Lords Temporal in Parliament holden at Northampton Hen. 2. as Selden reports We sit not here as Bishops only but as Barons we are Barons and you are Barons here we sit as Peers And some Statutes call them Peers of the Land in terminis 2. 'T is his Grace of Canterbury's Title Primus Par Angliae That the first Peer should be no Peer is an unheard of Solecism If he be a Peer the rest of the Bishops are his Com-peers what ever they are to the Lords Temporal John Stratford Archbishop of that place in the time of Ed. 3 claim'd this Priviledge in the Right of his See And the Protestat of W. Courtney elsewhere mentioned
AN ANSWER TO THE GENTLEMANS Letter to his Friend SHEWING THAT BISHOPS MAY BE JUDGES IN Causes Capital PSAL. 82.1 Deus stat in Congregatione Dei in medio Deorum judicat LONDON Printed by Tho. Braddyll for Robert Clavell at the Peacock in S. Pauls Church-Yard 1680. AN ANSWER TO THE GENTLEMAN's Letter to his Friend SHEWING THAT BISHOPS MAY BE JUDGES IN CAUSES CAPITAL SIR I Thank you for the Gentleman's Letter you sent me touching the Right of Bishops sitting as Judges in Cases Capital This Order of Men is not Sacred enough it seems in the Constitution to secure it against the Iniquity of these last Times Attempts of Rage and Extirpation Not to mention Martin Mar-Prelates nor others of former Times within our own Memory Mr. Prym led up the Van against them 1640. in a Book of this Title viz. Lord-Bishops none of the Lords Bishops After their Divine or Apostolical Constitution they began to question their Right to Sit in Parliament This occasioned that Quodlibetical Question Whether the Bishops make a Fundamental and Essential part of the English Parliament The Rational and Solid Answer to which Question was Printed in 1661 and now Reprinted as then put forth at first for the Information of some the Confirmation of others and the satisfaction of all The Gentleman who wrote this Letter seems to grant the Bishops a large share of Power within this Kingdom yet as to Secular Matters he does insinuate some kind of Prohibition they are supposed to lie under though his Arguments are very inconsequent to prove it The Rescript of Honorius he saith Theodosius the Decree of Justinian forbid them to have to do in Secular Matters Therefore the Kings of England who are of another Mind upon good experience of their judgment and fidelity may not admit them to have any Communion with Publick Functions Nor is the Argument less inconsequent which the Gentleman insinuates from the Apostles Declaration and Practice The Argument must be this A few men are appointed by our Lord to propagate the Gospel and plant the Christian Church all the world over and they think it unreasonable they should neglect this generous Employment impos'd upon them immediately from Heaven to serve Tables that is to relieve the Temporal Needs of indigent Disciples therefore when the Church is generally established Bishops setled in every Diocess and Ministers in every Parish it is equally unreasonable that the King should intrust any of the Clergy with any Secular Employments But after these By-blows this Gentleman tells us This is none of his business which he had therefore done better to have let alone 'T is the Critical point he stands upon which he calls Vexata Quaestio what is to be done in Parliament that is in their Judicial way upon Trials not in their Legislative Capacity passing Acts of Attainder in which the Gentleman is pleased to confess I know that Bishops have born a part but saith he that is not now the Question but only this Whether the Lords Spiritual have a Right to stay and sit in Court till the Court proceeds to the Vote of Guilty or Not Guilty This Gentleman concludes They ought not But the Question truly and precisely stated is only this Whether of Right they may or may not And having diligently examined what hath been said on both sides as the Gentleman hath advised me I profess to differ from him finding no sufficient Reason to change my Opinion which is for the Affirmative But the better to carry on his Negative this Gentleman falls upon Two Questions more which may be thought preliminary to this other The First is touching the Peerage of the Lords Spiritual The Second Whether they make a Third Estate in Parliament These two fall in collaterally and must be considered before we fall upon his main Battalia mustered up for the Defence of the Opinion we oppugn 1. That the Bishops make a Third Estate in Parliament there is very much alledged in the Treatise forementioned from the Examples of all Christian Kingdoms of the Gothick Model from Titus Livius Sir Edward Cooke the Parliament Rolls of King Richard the Third and the Recognition of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal with the Commons 1 Eliz. 3. 8. and what is argued from thence p. 16 17. of the Rebels Plea Printed 1660. to which I shall add that Mr. Sheppard in his Grand Abridgment and the Word Parliament tells us That the Parliament in England is the Assembly of the King and the Three Estates of the Realm viz. the Lords Spiritual the Lords Temporal and the Commons And this Gentleman does acknowledge p. 86 that the Subjects of England are divided into Three Estates The Nobility the Clergy and the Commonalty These he saith are the several Estates of the Kingdom But if the Bishops be not One of these Estates then one of the Three Estates of the Kingdom is not Represented at all in Parliament for he saith p. 88. that the Convocation where all the Clergy are present in their Persons or their Representatives is no part of the Parliament which is absurd The Authority of Mr. Selden to the contraay is most consonant to Reason and the Practice at the Ratification of the Peace with the French King 9 H. 5. 11 H. 7. are further Confirmations of it But this Gentleman saith p. 88. The Three Estates of Parliament are clean another thing each must have a Negative Voice to all that passeth there I might take notice by the By of his Mistake herein for there is nothing passeth where use is made of the Negative Voice but I must observe that this is a cleanly begging of the Question As for the Bishops being intermingled with the Earls and Barons and so if they be an Estate it is an Estate within an Estate like a Nest of Boxes one within another there is no absurdity at all in it for when Christianity had prevail'd not to recur to the time when all the Members of Parliament sate in one House together the Piety and Prudence of those times thought the State of the Church with all its Rights and Interest safe enough among the Nobility without any peculiar Negative voice to secure it and yet the Bishops Right of Protesting upon just occasion serves very well instead of such a Negative But this Gentleman thinks it would be a great Disparagement to the Peerage of England that Two Estates must be put together to keep the Ballance even with the House of Commons who are but One Estate and that their Two should signifie no more than that One taking no notice how much more they signifie though they do very much To this I answer in the general That Numbers of persons add no Right or Priviledge to a Politick Estate The Peerage of England had the same Power arid Dignity when they were not half so Numerous But to be more particular Experience tells us and we have an Instance too fresh in memory That neither