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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10345	The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.	Rainolds, John, 1549-1607.; Hart, John, d. 1586. aut; Rainolds, John, 1549-1607. Sex theses de Sacra Scriptura, et Ecclesia. English. aut	1584 (1584)	STC 20626; ESTC S115546	763,703	768

as Plato did excell among the Philosophers for witte and giftes of witte In the which conclusion that you may perceiue what I geue to Peter and refuse it if you mislike it by the giftes of grace I meane all the blessings wherewith the Lord did honour him by excelling in them I meane that he did passe not all the Apostles in them all but euery one in some or other For Iohn the disciple whom the Lord loued who wrote the Gospell so diuinely In the beginning was the worde who sawe by reuelation the things that were to come and wrote them by the spirite of prophecie Iohn excelled Peter in many giftes of grace as Ierom declareth And Paule excelled him farther euen in the chiefest giftes in so much that Austin who geueth excellent grace to Peter dooth geue most excellent grace to Paule and saith that he receiued more grace and laboured more then al the rest of the Apostles and is therefore called the Apostle by an excellencie But Peter of the other side excelled Paule in primacie that hée was chosen first and Iohn in age that he was elder in respect whereof hée was preferred before him by Ieroms opiniō to be the chief of the Apostles And this is it which Ierom and other Fathers meant by Peters principalitie if you will geue them leaue to be their owne interpreters They did not meane to call him Prince of the Apostles as the Pope desireth to bee Prince of Bishops Hart They did meane to call him the mouth and the top the highest the President and the head of the Apostles For these as I haue shewed are their own wordes by which a preeminence in gouernment is prooued and not in grace onely Rainoldes These in déede come néerer to the point in question because they touch gouernment at the least some of thē For some as the highest and so the toppe it may be too séeme to haue béene meant rather of preeminence in grace then in gouernment But if you will referre them vnto both it skilleth not For they can betoken no more then the rest And the rest doo signifie although a preeminence in gouernment such as it is yet nothing in comparison of your supremacie This is plaine by that which was agreed betwixt vs when wee spake of the practise of Peters autoritie in the Actes of the Apostles For when I graunted him to be as the Speaker of the Parlament in England or the President of a court of Parlament in Fraunce and shewed the great difference out of a lawier of your owne betweene this preeminence and that supremacie which you claime you reiected the lawier as either ignorant or vnfaithful and refused this préeminence as not importing that supremacie because it hath not soueraine power nay in power is vnder the body of the assembly aboue which it is in a prerogatiue of honor Yet this preeminence is all that is geuen to Peter by the titles of the mouth the head the President of the Apostles Wherefore it is euident that by those titles your Papall supremacie is not geuen to him Hart. It may by your similitudes be probably thoght that some of the rest might note such a preeminēce in gouernment as you speake of without a souerainty of power But the title of head hath greater strength in it For the Speaker is not called with vs in England the head of the Parlament That title is reserued to the Princ e alone Rainoldes But the President of a Court of Parlament in Fraunce is called head of the Court and Austin or rather he whom you alleadged in the name of Austin expoundeth head by President and the name of head as I haue prooued out of the Scriptures is vsed to note a preeminence of other things not of power much lesse of Princely power only Then what reason is there but Ierom in saying that Peter was appointed head might signifie the preeminence not of a Prince but of a Speaker We geue not in England the name of head vnto the Speaker True Neither geue we the name of Speaker to the Prince But Peter hath them both For hee is called the mouth and head of the Apostles If the one debase him not to the meanenesse of a Speakers function why should the other aduaunce him to the highnesse of a Princes soueraintie Hart. S. Ieroms reason sheweth that hée rather meant a soueraintie as of a Prince For he ●aith that Peter was chosen one amongst the twelue to the intent that a head beeing appointed occasion of schisme might be taken away And how can occasion of schisme be taken away vnlesse that one haue souerain power to gouerne all Rainoldes Why Doo you not thinke that Fraunce appointed Presidents in the Courts of Parlament for the better ordering of them in their dooings that occasion of strife might be taken away What In frée States which are ruled in commō not by one Prince but by the best men or by the whole people doo not their stories shew that one had a preeminence as the Consul at Rome the Prouost at Athens though the soueraintie were in many who had like authoritie and power amongst themselues And did they not appoint this one to be the chiefe and head of their company that occasion of strife might be taken away So fared it with Peter amongst the Apostles in gouerning the church whose state if wée compare with the states of common wealths we shall finde that it was an aristocratie not a monarchie as the Philosophers terme it not hauing Peter as a Prince but the Apostles as the best men to gouerne it in common Yet as in all assemblies wherein many méete about affaires of gouernment there must néedes be one for orders sake and peace to beginne to end to moderate the actions so was that preeminence geuen to Peter amongst the Apostles that all things might be done peaceably and orderly And this to be the headship which S. Ierom meant himself in that very place in which he toucheth it dooth shew manifestly For hauing set downe his aduersaries obiection But thou saiest the church is built vpon Peter he answereth thereto Although the same be done in another place on all the Apostles and they all receiue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the strength of the church is grounded on them equally yet therefore is one chosen amongst the twelue that a head being appointed occasion of schisme may be taken away Of the which sentence the former branch sheweth that by the name of head vsed in the later he could not meane that Peter had a soueraine power ouer the Apostles For all Peters power is comprised in the keies that Christ did promise him and in the building of the church vpon him But all the Apostles receiue the keyes by Ieroms iudgement and the church is builte vpon them

alleaging as I ghesse this text on Rufus credit though he name him not did mistake the matter the rather through a preiudice conceiued of the later times For that Metropolitans should professe Christ it was a thing required then But that they should be sworne to maintaine the Papacy it is a wéede that grew ●●●e or six hundred yeares after Hart. That they should be sworne to maintaine the Papacy it is though a newer yet a néedfull order least men should fall away from vnitie and obedience of the Sée of Rome But thus much yet Pelagius decréed as you graunt that they should al make profession of their faith to him be allowed by his consent Rainoldes All within his diocese not all throughout the world Hart. Nay he saith if any if any Metropolitan send not vnto the See of Rome to shew his faith and receiue the pall let him be depriued Behold he speaketh generally Rainoldes So the States of England make their actes of Parlament if any man doo this or that Which yet they meane not of men in Rome and Turkie but of all men within the Quéenes dominion Hart But the whole world is the Popes diocese And that he meant of al Metropolitans therein it is the more likely because that all Bishops were then confirmed by the Pope and it was thought necessarie that they should be so Whereof there are euident and notable examples as D Stapleton sheweth in Leo the great about the election of Anatolius the Patriarke of Constantinople and Proterius the Patriarke of Alexandria in Sozomen and Theodoret about Nectarius also elected by the whole Councell and yet to be confirmed by Damasus in Gregorie the great about the Bishop of Salonae who was confirmed by the Emperours he being not made priuie to it a thing that neuer happened vnder any Christian Prince before saith Gregorie Yea Bishops newly chosen were wont to send letters called synodicall to the Pope in which they made profession of the faith they held and so declared their agreement with the Church of Rome Such letters Proterius the Patriarke afore named of Alexandria sent to Leo Sophronius the Patriarke of Ierusalem to Pope Honorius Nicephorus the Patriarke of Constantinople to Leo the third and Peter after him to Leo the ninth Rainoldes But as other Patriarkes did send vnto the Popes such letters of conference whereby they made profession of their faith to him and shewed their agreement with the Church of Rome in like sort the Pope was wont to make profession of his faith to them and shew his consent in religion with their Churches For Gregorie the great wrote so to Iohn the Patriarke of Constantinople to Eulogius the Patriarke of Alexandria to Gregorie and Anastasius the Patriarkes of Antioche to Iohn the Patriarke of Ierusalem and this he did according to the ancient custome of his predecessours amongst whom was Leo. Wherefore the preeminence of Leo was no greater in confirming Patriarkes of Constantinople and Alexandria then was their preeminence in confirming him For as he allowed not them for lawfull Bishops vntill by their letters of conference he knew them to be sound in faith so neither were they wont to allow of any of whose faith they were not enformed in the same maner As for the example in Sozomen Theodoret that Nectarius elected by the whole Councell was yet to be confirmed by Damasus therein your Doctour playeth with Sozomen and Theodoret. For Sozomen neither saith it nor maketh any shew of saying it not as much as by naming Damasus Theodoret setteth downe the letters writen by the Councell to Damasus Ambrose Britto and other Bishops of the west but they disproue that priuilege of the Popes prerogatiue which Stapleton would proue by them For he alleageth them to shew that the Pope had at length at that time a necessarie consent in the confirming of all Bishops more then other Bishops yea then him selfe before had Whereas the letters mention the consent of Ambrose Britto and the rest no lesse then the consent of Damasus and they craue their common consent in like sort to the confirming of Nectarius as in former time all Bishops were confirmed yea the Pope too by the consent ech of others for better keeping of the faith and fostering of loue amongst them So the rest of your proofes import an equalitie betweene all Bishops at the first and afterwarde betweene all Patriarkes The onely example that hath any kinne with the decrée of Pope Pelagius for his superioritie euer Metropolitans is that out of Gregorie touching the Bishop of Salonae a Metropolitan citie in the countrie of Dalmatia For he was accustomed in déede to be confirmed by the consent of the Pope as of his Archbishop to receyue a pall from him But thereof to conclude that all Metropolitans throughout the whole world were likewise subiect to the Pope it hath as much reason as if you should conclude that the Quéene of England appointeth Lieutenants throughout all Christendome because she appointeth a Lord Deputie in Ireland You are deceiued M. Hart if you thinke the Pope was swolne so bigge in the time of Pelagius His dropsy had made him to drinke vp much but not all He was become Archbishop of a Princely diocese but he was yet but an Archbishop He was not vniuersal Pope Patriarke of the whole world Hart. Your speech is absurd and doth confute it selfe in séeking to confute the Pope For if he had but a diocese how was he an Archbishop Sith a diocese is the charge committed to a Bishop an Archbishop hath a prouince And if he were but an Archbishop how had he Metropolitans vnder him Whereas a Metropolitan and an Archbishop is all one Beside that you graunted him to be a Patriarke for els the other Patriarkes must be his superiours to whom you made him equall So while you striue against him and go about to bring him vnder to bereue him of the supremacie you speak as though you were bereft of sense and reason and knew not what to say of him Rainoldes In déed as the names of Archbishop and diocese are vsed in our dayes and haue beene of some writers in ancient times also my spéech may séeme absurd who say that the Pope was but Archbishop of a diocese when he was Patriarke as I graunt But after the language that was then receiued when the second sort of Popes were at the best I speake the wordes of sense and reason For Iustinian the Emperour who as it is requisite in penning of lawes is wont to keepe the proper and vsuall spéech of his time and his raigne did fall into the time we treate off ordeined that if an Elder or Deacon were accused his Bishop should haue the hearing of the matter if a Bishop his Metropolitan if a Metropolitan his Archbishop And againe he prouided for

of the fewnesse and oppression of the Bishops in the Councell of Ephesus and desiring that a generall Councell might be kept because Flauianus had appealed You must adde therefore the Empresse Placidia to the Emperour Valentinian and with the ones words of appealing to Leo take that the other sayth to Leo and to all the Bishops of these partes So Leo and the Bishops being ioyned together will make the Councell of Chalcedon by the which Councell the cause of Flauianus and his appeale was iudged The same Councell also did iudge Theodorets cause finding him guiltlesse restored him to his Sée Wherefore sith the Councell was iudge of the appeale if he appealed to Leo and not to the Councell it was an ouersight Unlesse perhaps he did not appeale as to a higher iudge that might restore him but as to a man of learning and autoritie whose credit and iudgement might helpe to proue him not guiltie And this doth the tenour of his request pretend Though asking wi●hall the aduise of Leo whether he shall beare that wrongfull depriuation or seeke to be restored he séemeth to haue thought of a further matter Which yet he toucheth so in speaking of troubling men and crauing Leos prayers that it is euident it lay not in Leo alone to restore him Wherefore the most that you may well imagine of an appeale made by Theodoret to Leo for remedie of the wrong done him is that Leo tooke his bill of appeale to preferre it to the Councell whereof he was President As with vs in England the billes are put vp to the Speaker of the Parlament that he may informe the Parlament thereof not as though himselfe had soueraine power to passe them Hart. Then you grant that Leo was President of the Councell as in déede he was and head of the Bishops therein as themselues say Which sheweth that they counted the Pope their supreme head Rainoldes You will find more heads then the Popes shoulders will be content to beare if you make such reasons First the Bishop of Corduba For Hosius was President of the Councell of Nice nor of Nice onely but also of Sardica and of many others Next the Bishop of Antioche or whosoeuer he were that had the roome in the Councell of Constantinople For the Pope had it not Thirdly the Bishop of Alexandria Hart. Nay Cyrill who had it in the third general Councel was Deputie therein to Pope Caelestinus as Euagrius writeth Rainoldes Caelestinus ioyned his autoritie to Cyrils But Cyrill was President as wel as Caelestinus in more mens iudgement then Euagrius Howbeit if he were not yet Alexandria will haue a head still For Dioscorus was President in the next of Ephesus neither he alone but also the Bishops of Ierusalem and Caesarea Wherefore if the Presidentship of a generall Councell do make a supreme head then Corauba in Spaine Alexandria in Egypt Ierusalem in Iewrie and other cities of the East may claime the supreme headship as well as Rome in Italie The Pope will be loth to haue so many partners But to deliuer him from that feare or rather the Church from his tyrannie and the truth from your sophisme there is a distinction in Cardinall Turrecremata which is worth the noting vpon this very point The Presidētship of Councels he sayth is two-folde one of honour an other of power Presidentship of honor is to haue preeminēce in place to propose things to direct the actions to giue definitiue sentence according to the voices and iudgement of the Councell Presidentship of power is to haue the right not onely of directing but of ruling their doings also and to conclude of matters after his owne iudgement though the greater part of the Councell like it not yea though no part like it Now the Popes supremacie chalengeth this Presidentship of power in Councels as though he alone were soue●aine iudge there which appéereth by his practise in the Councell of Vienna and by the Cardinals doctrine with the chiefest Papists But that which the general Councell of Chalcedon gaue vnto Leo in naming him their head was the Presidentship of honour as himself shewed in his Legates and Deputies who vsed all the Bishops as their fellow-iudges and concluded nothing but what they agréed of Wherefore the Presidentship which they gaue to Leo was no Papall soueraintie neither did they acknowledge him in that particular much lesse the Pope in generall to be their supreme head Hart. The Fathers did in general acknowledge the Pope and taught vs to acknowledge him our vniuersall Patriarke and Bishop of the Catholike Church nay to vse yet more the wordes of the most ancient Fathers our Prince the head of al Churches the top and the chiefe of the Apostolike company or as Epiphanius speaketh the chiefest the teacher of the whole world the ruler of the house of God an other father of the houshold and the first begotten whose seate as the most excellent Diuine S. Austin sayth hath the preeminence of a higher roome in the pastorall watch-tower which is common to all Bishops And will any man desire greater proofes of the Popes supremacie Rainoldes If any man doe he must take the paines to séeke them somewhere else Sure he is not like to finde them in your Stapleton For these are the chiefest of all in his treasurie Which therefore he culled out and sent them for a present to Gregorie the thirtéenth to shew what good wordes they giue of his Holinesse for his liberalitie toward the English Seminaries But he presenteth him with one title more which you haue omitted and yet doth it aduance him aboue all the rest Hart. None of the titles which the Fathers giue him Belike you meane that of the Emperour Rainoldes No I meane that of his owne Supremum in terris Numen In déede it hath no Fathers testimonie to proue it But as in this title he playeth the notable flatterer with the Pope so in the rest the notable sophister with you For the titles of our Prince the toppe the cheefe and chiefest of the Apostolike companie the teacher of the whole world an other father of the houshold and the first begotten are giuen by Optatus Chrysostome Epiphanius and a bastard Austin to Peter not to the Pope Stapleton alleaging them sayth that he vseth the wordes of the Fathers That is cunningly spoken For it is true he vseth their wordes though not their meaning As for the title of vniuersall Patriarke the Councell of Chalcedon which he quoteth for it gaue it not to the Pope neither Hart. No did not Theodore and certaine others there giue it to Pope Leo. Rainoldes A few poore suiters in their supplications to him and the Councell did séeke his fauour with it But neither the Councell nor any one Bishop of the Councell

fruites and other policies of the Popes to the end that he and his Courtly traine may be more rich in wealth more galant in brauery more high in Princely state Hath not all Christendome borne to their griefe the yoke of the ambition and couetousnes of Rome which crieth out like Iudas what wil ye geue me There is extant in print the defense and Apologie of the Church of England shewing fresh markes of the Roman tyranny wherewith our countrie hath béen seared as with a hote burning yron There is extant a supplication of the parlament of Paris wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions iniuries and guiles of the Court of Rome There are extant the hundred greeuances of Germany whose complaints writen as it were with their own blood doo shew with what outrage the Sée of Rome hath throwen down oppressed brused and spoyled that most noble nation There are extant infinite bookes of lamentations writen by lerned men of al coastes quarters in the middest of the Papacy confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed The Papistes themselues in the Councell of Trent doo not confesse it onely but also witnesse it by publike writing to the world There was gathered together a Councell at Constance about an eight score yéeres since that the church might be reformed both in the head and in the members The matter not being accomplished at Constance was enterprised againe at Basill But Eugenius the fourth who was Pope then could not abide the reformation and therefore reuoked the Councell of Basill by messages and bulles which sith they disobeied he brake it vp by force of armes And whereas there was made an act by the French king with his States that sundry decrees and ordinances of that Councel should be of force in France the Popes who succéeded Eugenius neuer rested till they had gotten that act repealed The last hope remained in the Councell of Trent and truely many things were decréed there for points of reformation wisely and worthily But thrée spots of mischiefes touched by Heruetus a Papist of so much the greater weight his testimonie is against Papists doo renue the old corruptions one that the decrees although they were made were not obserued yet another that although they should be obserued yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders the last that although they restored the ancient orders yet doo they litle good because the Pope is not bound to lawes him selfe and he dispenseth with whom he list so that medicines heale not the wounds but make them woorse as long as the Pope may repeale alter peruert and breake through the decrees of the Councell with his dispensations And out of all dout that detestable clause annexed to decrees of reformation in the Councell prouided alwaies that the Popes autoritie be safe and no way preiudiced dooth shew the Roman Church to be not onely sick but also past hope of recouering her health For as in mens bodies the greater the spleene waxeth the lesser waxe the rest of the members they say so the more safe the Popes autoritie is the lesse safe will all parts of the Church be The Court of Rome with poyson strōg infected to destroy With the contagion of her sores dooth countries all anoy Wherfore to knitte vp the summe of my reason séeing it is manifest by the very euidence of the things themselues that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely nor the sacraments rightly ministred nor prayers made religiously nor discipline duely practised in the Church of Rome if the former reason of causes séeme too weake yet is it fully proued I hope by the effects that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike church How much more absurde were it to count her the Catholike Church The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholike nor a sound member of the Catholike Church I haue stayed longer in opening this Conclusion then I had purposed but I may runne ouer the last so much the more speedily For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases the contagion whereof as the lepers sore because it is daungerous to them who dwell neere it must therefore be remoued out of the campe of the faithfull we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes common weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God all whose commaundements are righteousnesse saith the Prophet But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandement in seuering themselues from the Church of Rome Therefore they seuered themselues from the Church of Rome lawfully For as ecclesiasticall societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God that his elect and chosen should seeke him and praise him that is learne to know him and worship him being known so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught or he is not serued and worshipped aright thence doth he commaund his seruants to depart To depart first from that Church-assemblie where his right faith and knowlege is not taught the charge is giuen to Timothee Whom S. Paul aduertising of such as taught other doctrine then he did and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine declareth the qualities and fruites of those woolues and biddeth him depart from them from such sayth Paul depart thou depart thou frō their assembly and Church For so must such teachers be departed from as himselfe declared by his example at Ephesus Where he frequented the synagogue of the Iewes for the space of three moneths But when certaine obstinate disobedient persons spake euill of the way of God before the multitude he departed from them and separated the disciples So that hée seuered not himselfe onely but others also from that Church wherein the way of God was euill spoken of and men were not taught to know and beléeue in him aright Now that we must likewise depart from that Church wherein God is not serued and worshipped aright it is writen to the Corinthians Who being admonished to flee from idolatrie and from al communion with idolatrous worship are charged not to yoke thēselues with idolaters in their assemblies méetinges For what fellowship hath righteousnesse with vnrighteousnesse light with darkenesse Christ with Belial the faithful with the infidell the temple of God with idols Wherfore come out from among them and separate your selues sayth the Lord. Separate your selues from them sayth the Lord the Lord sayth not I. The Lord sayth to the Iewes go ye not vp to Beth-auen not Hosea but the Lord sayth It is called Beth-el but it is