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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30189	An answer to two treatises of Mr. Iohn Can, the leader of the English Brownists in Amsterdam the former called, A necessitie of separation from the Church of England, proved by the Nonconformists principles : the other, A stay against straying : wherein in opposition to M. Iohn Robinson, he undertakes to prove the unlawfulnesse of hearing the ministers of the Church of England ... / by the late learned, laborious and faithfull servant of Jesus Christ, John Ball.	Ball, John, 1585-1640.; Ashe, Simeon, d. 1662.	1642 (1642)	Wing B558; ESTC R3127	281,779	264

to say out of the Nonconformists against our Ministery in respect of their orders and degrees SECTION 6. CAN. Necess of Separation Pag. 37. IF the calling and office of their bishops be as the Nonconformists say it is of the earth false divellish Antichristian c. than it followes that the calling and office of the whole Ministery must necessarily be of the same nature qualities and condition to wit of the earth false divellish and Antichristian c. which is wholly derived from it which receives J say and takes it life and being of it only and no where else For if their Bishops have not a right power in themselves then can they not transferre it to another As the law saith Nemo potest plus juris transferre in ahum Regul juris 79. quam sibi competere dignoscatur No man can give more to another than he hath himselfe If Corah Dathan and Abitam when they usurped the priesthood and government of the Church should by that false power which they assumed have ordained some of the people unto the Priests office no doubt all the Israelites which feared God would have judged their place and standing unlawfull because they which made them had no commission from God so to doe The case of their Ministery is just so ANSWER IF some things of men bee mixed with that which is of God as the holy Sacraments with humane rites and humane pompe and glory with the Ministery that is from above a prudent Christian must separate one from another and not cast away what is of God as a nullitie fruitlesse unprofitable defiled because somewhat humane is annexed to them Accidentall defects or superfluities in or about the Ministery doe not destroy the nature and substance of the Ministery In the office and calling of Bishops two things are to be considered 1 The substance of their office and Ministery whereunto they are separated to wit to preach the Gospell dispense the Sacraments and administer the discipline of Jesus Christ Hieron in epist ad Tit. ca. 1. ad Evag. epist 2. Bilson chr part 2. pag. 318 319. Calv. tract deneces reform eccles Calvin instit l. 4 c. 4. sect 1.2 4 15. Zanch. in 4. praeteptum to● 732 733. Forb Irenic l. 2 prop 7 8 9 10. and this is of God 2 The superioritie they take or challenge over their brethren which makes not a difference or nullitie in the substance of their ministery and this is of men All Ministers of the Gospell are stewards of Jesus Christ set apart to doe his worke wherein if any one shall challenge more than of right appertaineth unto him or doe ought out of pride partialitie sinister affection tyrannie or sedition or receiveth such authoritie to himselfe alone as belongeth not to his place and office or is common to many in that he is blameworthy but thereupon his Ministery or ministeriall acts done by him are not made voide and of none effect Thus the Church of England The institution of a Christian man c. of the Sacram. of Orders Ievvel apol def par 2. c. 3. div 1 5 c. 9. div 1. in 1 Tim. 3. in 1 Tim. hom 11 Qu. ex utroque Testamento ca. 100. at least the prime maintainers of Religion against the Papists have taught That there is little or no difference betwixt a Bishop and a Presbyter to which purpose Iewell cites many passages out of the Ancient Fathers as of Ambrose there is one Ordination of a Bishop and a Presbyter Chrys betwixt a Bishop and a Presbyter there is almost no difference Aug. what is a Bishop but the first or chiefe Presbyter And both Conformists and Non-confor●●ists agree in this that ministers rightly qualified with gifts and preaching the doctrine of salvation purely bee the Ministers of Iesus Christ whether ordayned by Bishops or the Eldership Forb Iren. l. 2. c. 11 prop. Carleton de Eccl. c. 11. p 283.284 D. Field of the Church lib. 3. c. 39 T. C. repl 1. p. 82. There being great resemblance between the Popedome and Archbishop I meane having regard to the bare functions without respecting the Doctrine good or bad which they uphold there is yet great difference betweene the persons which execute them P. Lombard l. 4. sen dist 24. Capreol in 4. sent dist 2. qu. 1. Episcopatus non est alius distinctus ordo a sacerdotio Bonavent in 4 sent dist 24. art 2. qu. 3. Th. Aqui. 3. suppl qu. 40. art 5. They that hold Bishops by Divine right greater than Presbyters and that the power of Ordination belongeth unto them doe yet acknowledge Ordination given by the Eldership to be true by the judgement of the Catholike Church And they that maintaine the equalitie of Bishops and Presbyters by the Word of God deny not those Ministers to be of God who teach sound doctrine and feed the flocke of God committed to their charge though they received Ordination from Bishops The learned among the Papists themselves freely confesse that that wherein a Bishop excelleth a Presbyter is not a distinct and higher order or power of order but a kind of dignity or office and employment only Episcopacy is not another order distinct from the Priest-hood saith Capreolus No Prelate hath more concerning Sacramentall power or of order than simple Priests So Armachanus As concerning Sacerdotall order Armach l. 11. Dom. a Soto l. 10. de just jure q. 1. art 2. de 4. dist 24 q. 2 art 3 Darand in 4 sent dist 24 qu 5. Staple relect contr 2 qu. 3 art 3. Bellar. de Cler. l. 1. c 11 s 14. cusan concord l. 2. c. 13. and things that pertaine to order they are equall Thus Bellarmine himselfe Although a Bishop and Presbyter are distinguished yet as concerning Sacrifice they exercise the same ministery and therefore they make one order and not two Cusanus goeth further All Bishops and haply also Presbyters are of equall power in respect of jurisdiction although not of execution which executive exercise is shut up and restrayned by certaine positive Lawes And Iohannes de Parisijs de potost Regal Papal ca. 10. Some say a Presbyter hath the same power in his Parish that a Bishop hath in his Diocesse From which their confession it will evidently follow that Ministers ordained by Presbyters to whom the care and government of the Church belongeth are true Ministers In Alexandria and all Aegypt the Presbyters gave Ordination vvhen a Bishop vvas not present as Augustine Ambrose both confesse Ambr ad Eph. c 4 August Quest Nov vet 4 101 Concil Nicen can 4 Concil Arelatens 2. c. 5. Con Affris can 16 Bellar. de Eccl. l 4 c. 8 s Ex quo Gratian Decr dist 23 c. 8 Theodoret hist lib. 5 c. 23. Socrates hist. lib 4 c. 35 Gr. Johan Major in 4 sent dist 25 qu. 3 inter oper Gerson Paris 1606 p. 681 Greg 1 lib. 12 ep 31. indict 7. Bedal 1 c 27. Gratian. 1 par

negligence unjust usurpation or the like The right of government in Christs name belongeth unto them because it flowes from the ordinance and constitution of Christ as a proper adjunct which cannot be separated from the subject But the action it selfe of government may be n A disput part 3. c. 8. p. 189. When we teach that the Pastour or Pastours of every particular Church or congregation with the Elders of the same being met together have power to bind and loose we understand this onely of such places wherein a competent number of understanding and qualified men may be had to make up an Eldership hindred divers wayes when the being of the Church is not destroyed The Pastours and Teachers may be ignorant of their priviledges and so give away that which of right belongeth unto them or they may be negligent in the execution of their office and not heedfully attend to the Ministery committed unto them The greater part may prevaile against the better or some few may usurpe into their owne hands the power which belongeth unto the Societie which being once gained cannot easily be regained or redeemed in which cases the lawfull action of government is hindred when yet the Church remaineth the true Church of Christ Thus it hath been with the o Ambros in 1 Cor. cap. 5. The Apostle decreed that by the consent and in the presence of all men hee should be cast out of the Church c. Church of God in all ages ever since there was a Church upon the face of the earth And from this fountaine have sprung the errors abuses and corruptions which have prevailed in the Church of God For if p Hieron ad He●iodor in Id. ad Reparium advers Vigilantium disorders get head of necessitie the action of government is some way hindred or neglected Now to your Assumption First Every particular q August contr e● Parm. lib. 3. c. 2. Societie of beleevers in the Church of England or singular Pastour of this or that Congregation hath not the power of government neither doth it of right or by divine gift belong unto the communitie of the faithfull or one singular Pastour Secondly The power of Government as it consisteth in discerning betwixt the precious and the vile admonishing the inordinate and excommunicating the obstinate is considered either in respect of the substance parts and duties thereof or in respect of the ordering and administration by such persons and in such a course This distinction must be granted or else all the Churches which administer discipline amisse in any circumstance at any time must be charged to have no discipline at all and they that commit the administration of discipline to persons in mens opinion not designed by Christ not to have the discipline of Christ for substance For example they that commit the execution of discipline to the Presbytery or Classis have not the discipline of Christ in the judgement of the Separation because Christ as they say hath committed it to the communitie or body of the Societie And they that commit the power of government to the r Chrysost in Math. Hom. 83. No small vengeance hangeth over your heads if you suffer any hainous offender to be partaker of this Table people or communitie joyntly with the Elders in the judgement of reformed Churches have not the discipline of Christ because he hath committed it to the Presbytery And every act of government may be excepted against as a nullity because in some circumstance or other the order prescribed by Christ is not fully observed This then considered the Church of England is not without the s If any Prince would be baptized or approach to the Lords Table with manifest shew of unbeliefe or irrepentance the Minister is boūd freely to speak and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feet then to let the King of Kings be provoked the mysteries defiled his own soule and the Princes endangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition discipline of Christ for substance whether the word be taken largely or strictly whether we respect right or execution but the outward forme and ordering of the discipline is not in all things according to the Word of God I● by divine right the power of government belongeth either to the societie of Church-governours or the communitie of the faithfull it belongeth also to the Pastours Teachers Elders Assemblies among us As for the execution of discipline largely taken all men know the Word is truely preached and the Sacraments are duely and rightly t Bilson Christian subj part 2. p. 302. If you meane they may not minister the Sacraments unto Princes without faith repentance which God requireth of men that shall be baptized or have accesse to his Table we grant they must rather hazzard their lives than baptize Princes which beleeve not or distribute the Lords mysteries to them that repent not Bilson Christ subj part 3 p. 2. part 3. p. 248. If the Prince will not submit himselfe to the rules and precepts of Christ but wilfully maintaine heresie open impurity the Bishops are without flattery to reprove and admonish the Prince of the danger that is imminent from God and if he persist they must cease to communicate with him in divine prayer and mysteries Bils Ch. sub part 3. pag. 63 64. 74. administred and in what societie soever God is truely worshipped of necessitie the discipline of Christ is in some sort observed If we speake of discipline more strictly all men know the Church of England by doctrine professeth by Law hath established and daily practiseth for substance the execution of the very discipline of Christ The ordering and administration of the censures as it is in the Church of England is faultie and corrupt and how the godly have laboured according to their places the redresse of that evill is not unknowne to the world in part But the want of due execution of discipline or disordered administration thereof doth not argue the Church to want discipline but the due ordering of discipline nor to be no Church but to be defective and much out of order In the Church of the Jewes in the old u Jer. 20.1.2 3. 29.26 27 Mat. 10.17 Iude v. 4.7.8.10 Testament there was many times great neglect of discipline and abuse thereof In the Churches of the New Testament as in Corinth Galatia the Churches to which James and Jude wrote and Rome the execution of discipline could not take place or was much neglected Diotrephes usurped over the Church and corrupted the discipline when the Church continued the true Church of Christ and the faithfull abode in that societie This instance Dr Ames truely alledged to shew that the reprovers of abuses doe not lay the foundation of schisme or separation from the Church which x Can. Neces of Separat pag. 163. you doe well to spurne at because you know not how to remove it For

what if you doe not reade that Diotrephes was an unlawfull and Antichristian Minister you reade that he usurped over the faithfull hindred the due execution of Church-censures abused excommunication prated against the Brethren and practised a false government And if the want of discipline or neglect of due execution prove a Church to be no Church the faithfull in that societie were bound to separate If the Church had not the power of government at this time if we may beleeve you or receive your position they were no church if they had power in their hands and suffered it to be abused their sinne was the greater And if you take a view of your dealings in this or other particulars vilifying what you are not able to confute and wresting mens words contrary to their plaine meaning if your paper blush not I can hardly thinke but your conscience will smite SECT II. IF the Church of England hath not Christs keyes Can. Neces of Separat pag. 154. shee is not his saith Mr D. But the Church of England hath not Christs keyes saith Mr Brightman and y Syons plea. 111. others Therefore shee is not his house and consequently to be separated from ANSVVER YOur former reasons out of Mr D. I passe over because they have been answered already and are here thrust in to no purpose but onely to cover the insufficiency of your reply His answer was the want of discipline though an integrall part is no sufficient ground of separation This z Can. Neces of Separat p. 152 153. you offer not to disprove by any substantiall reason but with railing and reproach to disgrace wherein whether you more wound your own conscience or hurt your adversary be judge your selfe a Can. Neces of Separat pag. 212. 1 Pet. 3.9 Rom. 13.21 You say truely It is a Christian part not to render rebuke for rebuke and a thousand times better were it to sustaine even a legion of reproaches than for a man by turning though but one to give cause of suspition that evill hath got some part of conquest over him But if you looke into your own writings you shall finde them stuffed with insolent boasting scornfull taunts and reproaches unbeseeming your place person and a good cause I dare say all the Nonconformists that ever wrote in the cause of discipline never went in practise so much against their Principles as you in this one particular goe against your profession in the foresaid passage and a good conscience The matter in hand betwixt you and Mr D. is the absolute necessitie of Church-discipline to the being of a Church To what end then doe you bring That the Book of common-prayer used in the Assemblies of England is an infectious Liturgie Romish-stuffe a devised service raked out of three Romish Channells That the Ministery of the Church of England is unlawfull and Antichristian That the Ministery worship and government of of England are corruptions Doth this make ought to confirme your position or weaken the answer which was truely given But some thing must be said whether to or besides the purpose it matters not Another stratageme b Can. Neces of Separat pag. 153. you put in practice in the same place not very commendable You would seeme to confute the D. out of himselfe What say you if it appeare that Mr D. arguments doe lead rather to separation and that he speaketh one thing and practiseth another would not this be a strange sight especially to himselfe Now whether this be so we will here try by some reasons in his owne moode and figure But though the moode and figure be his the reasons be your owne and not his and the conclusions unjustly drawne from the Premises as the D. answered and we have shewed before Perhaps in warre stratagems may be of use but in the cause of God such cunning devices are dangerous symptoms This I note to entreat your serious reexamination of what you have done and now I come to the argument here propounded whereunto I make answer as you relate it for I have not the D. Booke to search out what he hath written The power of the keyes is twofold Concioualis Judicialis as it is usually called The first consists in the preaching of the Gospell wherein the kingdome of heaven is opened to the penitent sinnes remitted life promised and heaven shut to the obstinate which is the sword and the scepter of Christ whereby he saveth his people 2 Cor. 1.21 2 Cor. 10.4 Isa 11.4 Rom. 1.16 and conquereth his enemies beateth downe every strong hold p●ireeth to the division of foule and spirit and of the joynts and marrow and judgeth the very cogitations and thoughts of the heart These effects Christ executeth by his Word even when it is not assisted by the c To excommunicate is to remove the wicked irrepentant from participation of the Lords Supper least by sacrilegious presuming to violate that Table the ungodly should condemne themselves and defile others Bilson perpet gov cap. 9. discipline spoken of Now if it be rightly understood the Church of God cannot be without this key For the Church is gathered by the Word and is a company or societie which hath received the Word in profession at least and doth possesse it and amongst whom it dwelleth The Judiciall power of the d Excommunication is a meere spirituall punishment reacheth no further by Gods word than to take from offenders the remission of their sinnes by wanting the Word and Sacraments untill they repent Bilson Christian. part 3. pag. 52. keyes is the power of government which consisteth principally in the right ordering and dispensation of Church censures and so of the manners and necessities of all men which agreeth not to any one member nor to the communitie of the faithfull nor to any one singular governour but to the Ecclesiasticall Senate yet with due respect had to the communitie of the faithfull In the first sense the Church of England hath the power of the keyes e Cyp. lib. 1. epist 3. I hardly perswade the people yea I am forced to wrest it from them before they will suffer such to be admitted Bilson perpet gov c. 9. Great reason had those godly Fathers to see the whole Church satisfied before they released the sentence of excommunication c. and so doing they shewed not what right the multitude had to sit Iudges with the Bishop but what ●●e themselves had to remove from the people all occasions of stumbling Id. pag. 113. If you take Excommunication for removing the unruly from the civill societie of the faithfull untill they conforme themselves unto a more Christian course of life I am not altogether averse that the whole Church should concurre in that action c. See August contr Par Ep. 1 l. 2. ca. 1. Can. Stay Sect. 12. pag. 123. not so much as is to be desired but in an eminent sort and that with Gods

with the triumphant church And not by all sorts as in outward societie and profession are linked together who yet are not excluded from the societie in respect of profession nor denied to be members of the Church in their kinde or in a sort such as are called onely by externall vocation are members in their kinde of that company called or externally selected but not true members of the Church militant nor militant members of the Church catholique whereof Christ is the head And thus the church is a company of faithfull people sincere upright walking with God which is mixed with hypocrites and wicked livers not as living members of Jesus Christ but as members in a sort of the visible societie as members in the church by outward profession but not of the true militant church SECT V. BEfore I end this point Neces of Separat p. 179 180 181. Babel no Bethel pag. 108. Chall ca. 1. pag 33 34. I will here lay downe some few Syllogismes intirely made up between the Inconformists and Conformists all concluding the forenamed position That Church which hath not a lawfull Ministery is not a true visible Church But the Church of England hath not a true lawfull Ministery Ergo The Church of England is not a true visible Church The proposition is affirmed of the Conformists Sutcl Chal. pa. 40. and answ to the except pag. 65. as Burton Sutcliffe The Assumption is granted by the Nonconformists as we have in the first chapter largely shewed The true visible Church of Christ is a societie of beleeving and faithfull people and a communion of Saints so say the Conformists But the Church of England is not a societie of beleeving and faithfull people a communion of Saints thus write the Nonconformists see page 169. Ergo the Church of England is not the true visible Church The true Church is the Kings daughter described in Psalme 45. But the Church of England is not the Kings daughter so described Therefore the Church of England is not the true Church of Christ Burton answer to Hicholia pag. 100. The proposition is laid downe by the Conformists whereby they prove Rome a false Church The Assumption is the Nonconformists For if they say the truth their members have not those qualities belonging to the Kings daughter neither the Priest nor people See pag. 15.16 39.137 ●● 69.170 The true Church of Christ is the flocke of Christ 〈◊〉 the Church of England is not the true flock of Christ therefore the Church of England is not the true Church of Christ. The proposition say the Conformists is undeniable Burtō in the same Booke pag. 99. Song 1.6 7 Act 20.28 Joh 10.16 The●e Assumption is proved by the Nonconformists Principles compared with Joh. 10.3 4.27 Christs flocke heare his voice and live it and follow it But the Church of England submitting to a● unlawfull Minisstery worship and discipline heare not Christs voice nor know nor acknowledge nor follow it but the voyce of Antichrist The Church of God doth keepe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets without addition alteration or corruption thus the Conformists Sutcl Chal. cap. 1. pag. 6. arg 9. But the Church of England keepes not the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets without addition alteration and corruption say the Nonconformists Sec pag 108 Ergo shee is not the Church of God No societie can be tearmed Gods Church which retaineth not Gods true worship this the Conformists But the Church of England doth not retaire Gods true worship say the Nonconformists See pag. 78 to the 213. Ergo The same Booke pag. 13. arg 19. shee cannot be tearmed Gods church The true Church consisteth not of fierce Lyons Wolves Tigres and such like wilde and fierce beasts But of Sheepe and Lambes which learne of Christ and are meeke humble gentle c. So say the Conformists But the English Church doth consist of Lyons Id. pag. 27. arg 〈◊〉 Wolves Tigres and such like wilde and fierce beast's and not of Sheepe and Lambes which learne of Christ and are meeke humble and gentle c. Thus the Nonconformists see pag. 31. c. 145.169 Therefore it is not the true Church Here the Reader seeth cleerely how the Conformists Majors and the Nonconformists Minors make up intire Syllogismes of Separation And how they will be able to loose these knots I know not except by revoking utterly their own grounds which if either of them doe yet I doubt not but we shall be well enough able to maintaine them against men ANSVVER YOu please your selfe with the same Song which here we have over againe and againe tuned with the same art But that which you talke of the Conformists Majors and the Inconformists Minors your slanders set aside is idle and toyish For in that matter there is no difference betwixt the Conformists and the Inconsormists The Conformists Majors as they are truely meant the Inconformists doe assent unto And the abuse of ignorance idlenesse prophanenesse both of Ministers people whereof the Nonconformists complaine the Conformists doe acknowledge and bewaile And your selfe a little after in a matter of the same nature affirme that herein you say no more than what in effect is fully acknowledged Can. Neces of Separat pag. 193. by the Nonconformists Conformists the Church of England the learned generally and all the reformed Churches upon earth and for proofe you quote the same Authors you here all edge And why then doe you trifle thus with the Conformists Major and Inconformists Minor Did the sound of those words please you so well But let the Majors and Minors be whose they will no intire or perfect Syllogismes of Separatisme can be made up of them but such as ignorance in not understanding or an evill conscience in perverting or falsifying their sayings doth conclude They may well stand to their grounds and unloose those knots and if they understand their owne principles they cannot but untie them But how you can free your selfe from the guilt of an evill conscience unlesse you recant what you have written repent of your Separation and acknowledg the wrong you have done to the Nonconformists by misreporting perverting and falsifying their principles as you call them I leave to your serious consideration and the reexamination of what you have done For the right understanding of the Conformists propositions I● speake in your phrase against the Church of Rome we must note That the Romanists hold the Church of Rome to be the catholique Church of Christ here on earth under the Pope the Head in which sense their propositions are to be understood For the true catholique militant Church is a faithfull people a communion of Saints the flocke of Christ that heareth his voyce keepeth the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles without addition or alteration and worshippeth God truly according to his will And there is truly and properly no member of the militant Church catholique which doth not

of Gods Worship is one maine cause of great error and going astray In proofe of your proposition also you lavish somewhat when you say without limitation That all sorts and sects of Writers acknowledge it for a truth For the Papists generally hold the contrary as you know But this is a thing with you very usuall and common The later part of your reason which you smoothly passe over as a matter cleere and manifest and for proofe whereof you send us to our consciences in conscience we utterly denie and by the Word of God are assured of the contrary viz. That to joyne with our congregations in the ordinances of Grace is a Worship of God prescribed in his Word cōmended of Christ and blessed of him to them that in conscience obey his Commandements The Worship there performed is that which the Lord hath instituted the doctrine of salvation is taught intirely the Sacraments rightly administred the sacrifice of Prayer offered unto God in the Mediation of Jesus Christ our onely high Priest who is present in the Congregations by the presence of his grace graciously inviteth men to come unto him and sweetly refresheth them that in truth of heart draw nigh unto him Thus God is worshiped in our assemblies and this worship is performed by such as are called of God and many approved of God in their Office and Ministerie That the Preaching and hearing of the Word is a Worship of God if the word Worship be taken largely to comprehend both all naturall worship and all means instituted and ordained whereby God is pleased to teach and instruct his people will easily be granted and such as denie it are justly to be taxed But that distinction of Worship must be admitted which is taught in Scripture and the more exactly tearmes are distinguished the more cleerely the fraud of the Adversary is discovered and the better able shall we be to confute them unlesse we had rather doe it with bigge words than weight of reason Onely here observe your partiality CAN. Necess of Sep. p. 72. Idem 222. For to shew the necessitie of Separation speaking of outward Worship used in the assemblies of England you say As for Preaching it is held to be no part of Divine Service and for proofe you quote Howson Serm. in Psal 118. pag. 18. CAN. 19 Syon plea 326. And Touching Preaching it is no Essentiall part of their Ministerie But against your Pistoler to prove that hearing is Worship CAN. Stay §. 3. p 17. you sing another note None to my knowledge saving a Popish Parasite or two Howson Serm. in Psal 118. pag. 78. ever held otherwise viz. but that hearing was Worship And they by men of better iudgements have been sharpely blamed for it But let us heare how you goe forward in this Argument CAN. Stay against Stray Sect. 3 pag. 17 18. The Church is an Idoll Church Hos 14 8.2 Cor. 6.14 Par. com in 1 Cor. 10 v. 14. and the Ministery an Idoll Ministerie And if be Church he an Holl the Ministerie a● Idol● who 〈◊〉 a● Idoll c. In the words then of the Prophet What have we to d●● any more with Idolls What agreement hath the Temple of God with Idolls Little children keep your selves from Idolls Againe my dearely beloved 〈◊〉 from Idolatrie But how mente corpore faith Pare●s that is the worship and reverence of Idoll● ANSWER The Assumption you leave naked to shift for it selfe because you finde it an easier matter to declaime against Idolatry and holding communion with Idolaters in their Idoll-service which no man ever doubted than to make proofe that to joyne in the ordinances of Religion in our assemblies is will-worship or superstition But if you prove little you have learned to accuse manfully An Idoll Church an Idoll Ministerie an Idoll-government who doth not tremble at such thunder cracks But first you should call to minde what you answere to your opposite CAN. Stay §. 3. p. 20 Arist de interpret l. 1. c. 6. prapter nostr●m ●ffirmare vel negare nihil sequitur CAN. Stay §. 7. p. 89. As for your bare saying it is farre from proofe To affirme or denie according to Aristorie is of no consequence Wee cannot take his bare saying de jure fide to be a rule of faith to us For our consciences are not like Samsons shoulders strong enough to beare it If it may suffice to accuse who shall be innocent And if the cause may be carried with clamors and out-cryes you are sure to winne the victory 2 Suppose our Church and Ministerie be an Idoll in some respect it is not a reall Idoll but Metaphoricall not absolute but in some consideration for the Word preached and the Sacraments Administred in our societies are the true Gospel and intire Sacraments of Jesus Christ which could not be if our Church and Ministery was absolutely an Idoll a meere nothing But to draw illimited conclusions from a reall Idoll to a Metaphoricall from an absolute Idoll to an Idoll in some consideration or respect is a new Logick never taught in the Schooles nor learned from the Scriptures The idle Zech. 11.16 17. Isa 56.10 Ezek. 34.1 2 4 5. They will not be able to doe the worke of Pastors where of they bear the name that is they will never be but Idolls T.C. repl 2. p. 1. p. 369 Jere. 5.1 2. Deut. 32.4 5. carelesse unprofitable co●etous pro●d scandalous shepheard who filleth the roome but doth not the office of a shepheard is an Idoll shepheard But the faithfull were not to flie from them both in minde and body so as to have no communion with them in the Ordinances of God In the daies of the Prophet Iere●ie the men of Jerusaiem in generall both rich and poore were Idolls who had eyes but saw not eares but heard not But the Prophet had not learned in minde and body to fly from and have no societie with them in the worship of God The stiffe-necked and disobedient Israelites the uncircumcised in heart and life were they not Idols A people not a people Though those their vices must be shunned yet we have not found that Moses and the Prophets did fly from the ordinances of God because they must have nothing to doe with Idols Every thing that is emptie of goodnesse required and so doth faile or frustrate expectation may be called an Idoll a thing of no worth vaine and fruitlesse So an Hypocrite is an Idoll the husband wife father friends who are not faithfull doe not their office Job 13.4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nihist as Merar Montan. Tremel Iun. render it Iob 6.15 1 Cht. 16.26 Heb. Sept. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hieron idola Psal 96.5 Sept. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hieron vers ex Hebr. sculptile Eph. 5.3 Col. 3.5 with Hal. 1.16 may be called Idols Iob saith to his friends Ye are Physitians of no value because they had deceived him as David saith All the