receiue any Spirituall Iurisdiction from any Temporall Prince and therfore if Iurisdiction must be deriued from Princes he hath none at all and yet either you must acknowledge that he hath true spirituall Iurisdiction or that your Selues can receiue none from him 21. Moreouer this new Reformation or Reformed Church of Protestants will by them be pretended to be Catholique or Vniuersall and not confined to England alone as the Sect of the Donatists was to Africa and therfore it must comprehend all the Reformed Churches in Germany Holland Scotland France c. In which number they of Germany Holland and France are not gouerned by Bishops nor regard any personall Successiō vnles of such fat-beneficed Bishops as Nicolaus Amsfordius who was consecrated by Luther though Luther himselfe was neuer Bishop as witnesseth (y) In Millenario sexto pag. 187. Dresserus And though Scotland hath of late admitted some Bishops I much doubt whether they hold them to be necessary or of diuine Institution and so their enforced admitting of them doth not so much furnish that kingdome with personall Succession of Bishops as it doth conuince them to want Succession of Doctrine since in this their neglect of Bishops they disagree both from the milder Protestants of England and the true Catholique Church And by this want of a cōtinued personall Succession of Bishops they retaine the note of Schisme Heresy So that the Church of Protestants must either not be vniuersall as being confined to England Or if you will needs comprehend all those Churches which want Succession you must confesse that your Church doth not only communicate with Schismaticall and Hereticall Churches but is also compounded of such Churches your selues cannot auoid the note of Schismatiques or Heretiques if it were but for participating with such hereticall Churches For it is impossible to retaine Communion with the true Catholique Church and yet agree with them who are diuided from her by Schisme or Heresy because that were to affirme that for the selfe same time they could be within and without the Catholique Church as proportionably I discoursed in the next precedent Chapter concerning the Communicating of moderate Protestants with those who maintaine that Heresy of the Latency and Inuisibility of Gods Church where I brought a place of S. Cyprian to this purpose which the Reader may be pleased to reuiew in the Fifth Chapter and 17. Number 22. But besides this defect in the personall Succession of Protestant Bishops there is another of great moment which is that they wāt the right Forme of ordaining Bishops and Priests because the manner which they vse is so much different from that of the Roman Church at least according to the common opinion of Deuines that it cannot be sufficient for the Essence of Ordination as I could demonstrate if this were the proper place of such a Treatise and will not fayle to doe if D. Potter giue me occasion In the meane time the Reader may be pleased to read the Authour (z) See Adamum Tānerum tom 4. disp 7. quaest 2. dub 3. 4. cited heere in the margent then compare the forme of our Ordination with that of Protestants and to remēber that if the forme which they vse eyther in Consecrating Bishops or in Ordayning Priests be at least doubtfull they can neyther haue vndoubted Priests nor Bishops For Priests cannot be ordayned but by true Bishops nor can any be a true Bishop vnles he first be Priest I say their Ordination is at least doubtfull because that sufficeth for my present purpose For Bishops and Priests whose Ordination is notoriously knowne to be but doubtfull are not to be esteemed Bishops or Priests and no man without Sacriledge can receiue Sacraments from them all which they administer vnlawfully And if we except Baptisme with manifest danger of inualidity and with obligation to be at least conditionally repeated so Protestants must remaine doubtfull of Remission of sinnes of their Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy and may not pretend to be a true Church which cannot subsist without vndoubted true Bishops and Priests nor without due administration of Sacraments which according to Protestants is an essentiall note of the true Church And it is a world to obserue the proceeding of English Protestants in this point of their Ordinations For first Ann. 3. Edw. 6. cap. 2. when he was a Child about twelue yeares of age It was enacted that such (a) Dyer fol 234. term Mich. 6. 7. Eliz. forme of making and consecrating of Bishops and Priests as by six Prelates and six other to be appointed by the King should be deuised marke this word deuised and set forth vnder the great Seale should be vsed and none other But after this Act was repealed 1. Mar. Sess 2. in so much as that when afterward An. 6. 7. Reg. Eliz. Bishop Bonner being endicted vpon a certifitate made by D. Horne a Protestant Bishop of Winchester for his refusal of the Oath of Supremacy and he excepting agaynst the endictment because D. Horne was no Bishop all the Iudges resolued that his exceptiō was good if indeed D. Horne was not Bishop and they were all at a stand till An. 8. Eliz. cap. 1. the act of Edw. 6. was renewed and confirmed with a particular prouiso that no man should be impeched or molested by meanes of any certificate by any Bishop or Archbishop made before this last Act. Whereby it is cleere that they made some doubt of their owne ordination and that there is nothing but vncertainty in the whole busines of their Ordination which forsooth must depend vpon six Prelats the great Seale Acts of Parlaments being contrary one to another and the like 23. But though they want Personall Succession yet at least they haue Succession of doctrine as they say pretend to proue because they belieue as the Apostles belieued This is to begg the Question and to take what they may be sure will neuer be graunted For if they want Personall Succession and sleight Ecclesiasticall Tradition how will they perswade any man that they agree with the doctrine of the Apostles We haue heard Tertullian saying I will prescribe (b) Sup. 〈…〉 against all Heretiques that there is no meanes to proue what the Apostles preached but by the same Churches which they founded And S. Irenaeus tels vs that We may (c) L. 3. 〈…〉 behold the Tradition of the Apostles in euery Church if men be desirous to beare the truth and we can number them who were made Bishops by the Apostles in Churches and their Successors euen to vs. And the same Father in another place sayth We ought to obey (d) L. 4. 〈◊〉 43. those Priests who are in the Church who haue Succession from the Apostles and who together with Succession in their Bishoprickes haue receiued the certaine guift of truth S. Augustin sayth I am kept in the Church (e) Contr. epist. Fundam cap. 4. by the Succession of Priests from the
cont Parm. went not out of Maiorinus thy Grand-Father but Maiorinus from Caecilianus neither did Caecilianus depart from the Chaire of Peter or Cyprian but Maiorinus in whose Chaire thou sittest which before Maiorinus Luther had no beginning Seing it is euident that these things passed in this manner that for example Luther departed from the Church and not the Church from Luther it is cleere that you be HEIRES both of the giuers vp of the Bible to be burned and of SCHISMATIQVES And the Regall Power or example of Henry the Eight could not excuse his Subiects from Schisme according to what we haue heard out of S. Chrysostome saying Nothing doth so much prouoke (d) Hom 11. In ep st ad Epâ—â—s the wrath of Almighty God as that the Church should be diuided Although we should do innumerable good deeds if we diuide the full Ecclesiasticall Congregation we shall be punished no lesse then they who did rend his naturall Body for that was done to the gaine of the whole world though not with that intention but this hath no good in it at all but that the greatest hurt riseth from it These things are spoken not only to those who be are office but to such also as are gouerned by them Behold therfore how liable both Subiects and Superiours are to the sinne of Schisme if they breake the vnity of God's Church The words of S. Paul can in no occasion be verified more then in this of which we speake They who do such things (e) Rom. 1.32 are worthy of death and not only they that do them but they also that consent with the doers In things which are indifferent of their owne nature Custome may be occasion that some act not well begun may in time come to be lawfully coÌ„tinued But no length of Time no Quality of Persons no Circumstance of Necessity can legitimate actions which are of their owne mature vnlawfull and therfore diuision from Christs my sticall Body being of the number of those actions which Deuines teach to be intrinsece malas euill of their owne nature and essence no difference of Persons or Time can euer make it lawfull D. Potter sayth There neither was nor can be any cause to depart from the Church of Christ no more then from Christ himselfe And who dares say that it is not damnable to continue a Separation from Christ Prescription cannot in conscience runne when the first beginner and his Successours are conscious that the thing to be prescribed for example goods or lands were vniustly possessed at the first Christians are not like strayes that after a certaine time of wandring from their right home fall from their owner to the Lord of the Soile but as long as they retaine the indeleble Character of Baptisme and liue vpon earth they are obliged to acknowledge subiection to God's Church Human Lawes may come to nothing by discontinuance of Time but the Law of God commaunding vs to conserue Vnity in his Church doth still remaine The continued disobedience of Children cannot depriue Parents of their paternall right nor can the Grand-child be vndutifull to his Grand Father because his Father was vnnaturall to his owne Parent The longer God's Church is disobeyed the profession of her Doctrine denyed her Sacraments neglected her Liturgy condemned her Vnity violated the more grieuous the fault growes to be as the longer a man with-holds a due debt or retaines his Neighbours goods the greater iniustice he commits Constancy in euill doth not extenuate but aggrauate the same which by extension of Time receiueth increase of strength addition of greater malice If these mens conceits were true the Church might come to be wholy diuided by wicked Schismes and yet after some space of time none could be accused of Schisme nor be obliged to returne to the visible Church of Christ and so there should remaine no One true visible Church Let therfore these men who pretend to honour reuerence belieue the Doctrine and practise of the visible Church and to condemne their forefathers who fosooke her and say they would not haue done so if they had liued in the dayes of their Fathers and yet follow their example in remaining diuided from her Communion consider how truly these words of our Sauiour fall vpon them Wo be to you because you build (f) Matt. 23. â— 29. c. the Prophets sepulchers and garnish the monuments of iust men and say If we had been in our Fathers dayes we had not been their fellowes in the bloud of the Prophets Therfore you are a testimony to your owne selues that you are the sonnes of them that killed the Prophets and fill vp the measure of your Fathers 46. And thus hauing demonstrated that Luther his Associates and all that continue in the Schisme by them begunne are guilty of Schisme by departing from the visible true Church of Christ it remaineth that we examine what in particular was that Visible true Church from which they departed that so they may know to what Church in particular they ought to returne and then we shall haue performed what was proposed to be handled in the fifth Point 47. That the Roman Church I speake not for the present of the particular Diocesse of Rome 5 Point but of all visible Churches dispersed throughout the whole world agreeing in faith with the Chaire of Peter Luther the rest departed froÌ„ the Roman Church whether that Sea were supposed to be in the Citty of Rome or in any other place That I say the Church of Rome in this sense was the visible Catholique Church out of which Luther departed is proued by your owne Confession who assigne for notes of the Church the true Preaching of Gods Church and due Administration of Sacraments both which for the substance you cannot deny to the Roman Church since you confesse that she waÌ„ted nothing fundamentall or necessary to saluation and for that very cause you thinke to cleare your selfe from Schisme whose property as you say is to cut off from the (g) pag. 78. Body of Christ and the Hope of Saluation the Church from which it separates Now that Luther and his fellowes were borne and baptized in the Roman Church and that she was the Church out of which they departed is notoriously knowne And therefore you cannot cut her off from the Body of Christ Hope of Saluation vnles you will acknowledge your selfe to deserue the iust imputatioÌ„ of Schisme Neyther can you deny her to be truly Catholique by reason of pretended corruptions not fundamentall For your selfe auouch and endeauour to proue that the true Catholique Church may erre in such points Moreouer I hope you will not so much as go about to proue that when Luther rose there was any other true visible Church disagreeing from the Roman agreeing with Protestants in their particular doctrines and you cannot deny but that England in those dayes agreed with Rome and other Nations with England
vniuersall Church She hath this (t) Cont. lit Petil. lib. 1. cap. 104. most certaine marke that she cannot be hidden She is then knowne to all Nations The Sect of Donatus is vnknown to many Nations therfore that cannot be she The Sect of Luther at least when he began and much more before his beginning was vnknowne to many Nations therfore that cannot be she 17. And that it may yet further appeare how perfectly Luther agreed with the Donatists It is to be noted that they neuer taught that the Catholique Church ought not to extend it selfe further then that part of Africa where their faction raigned but only that in fact it was so confined because all the rest of the Church was prophaned by communicating with Caecilianus whom they falsly affirmed to haue been ordained Bishop by those who were Traditours or giuers vp of the Bible to the Persecutors to be burned yea at that very time they had some of their Sect residing in Rome and sent thither one Victor a Bishop vnder colour to take care of their Brethren in that Citty but indeed as Baronius (u) Anno 321. nu 2. Spond obserueth that the world might account them Catholiques by communicating with the Bishop of Rome to communicate with whom was euen taken by the Ancient Fathers as an assured signe of being a true Catholique They had also as S. Augustine witnesseth a pretended (w) De Vni Eccles c. 3. Church in the howse and territory of a Spanish Lady called Lucilla who went flying out of the Catholique Church because she had been iustly checked by Caectlianus And the same Saint speaking of the conference he had with Fortunius the Donatist sayth Heere did he first (x) Ep. 163. attempt to affirme that his Communion was spread ouer the whole Earth c. but because the thing was euidently false they got out of this discourse by confusion of language wherby neuertheles they sufficiently declared that they did not hold that the true Church ought necessarily to be confined to one place but only by meere necessity were forced to yield that it was so in fact because their Sect which they held to be the only true Church was not spread ouer the world In which point Fortunius and the rest were more modest then he who should affirme that Luther's reformation in the very beginning was spead ouer the whole Earth being at that time by many degrees not so far diffused as the Sect of the Donatists I haue no desire to prosecute the similitude of Protestants with Donatists by remembring that the Sect of these men was began and promoted by the passion of Lucilla and who is ignorant what influence two women the Mother and Daughter ministred to Protestancy in England Nor will I stand to obserue their very likenes of phrase with the Donatists who called the Chaire of Rome the Chaire of pestilence and the Roman Church an Harlot which is D. Potter's owne phrase wherin he is lesse excusable then they because he maintaineth her to be a true Church of Christ therfore let him duely ponder these words of S. Augustine against the Donatists If I persecute him iustly who detracts (y) Conc. super gest cust Emeriâ— from his Neighbour why should I not persecute him who detracts from the Church of Christ and sayth this is not she but this is an Harlot And least of all will I consider whether you may not be well compared to one Ticonius a Donatist who wrote against Parmenianus likewise a Donatist who blasphemed that the Church of Christ had perished as you do euen in this your Booke write against some of your Protestant Brethren or as you call them Zelots among you who hold the very same or rather a worse Heresy and yet remained among them euen after Parmenianus had excommunicated him as those your Zealous Brethren would proceed agaynst you if it were in their power and yet like Ticonius you remaine in their Communion and come not into that Church which is hath been and shall euer be vniuersall For which very cause S. Augustin complaines of Ticonius that although he wrote against the Donatists yet he was of an hart (z) De doctr Christ lib. 3. cap. 30. so extremely absurd as not to forsake them alto gether And speaking of the same thing in another place he obserues that although Ticonius did manifestly confute them who affirmed that the Church had perished yet he saw not sayth this holy Father that which in good consequence (a) Cont. Parm. l. 1. cap. 1. he should haue seene that those Christians of Africa belonged to the Church spread ouer the whole world who remained vnited not with them who were diuided from the communion and vnity of the same world but with such as did communicate with the whole world But Parmenianus and the rest of the Donatists saw that consequence and resolued rather to settle their mind in obstinacy against the most manifest truth which Ticonius maintained then by yielding therto to be ouercome by those Churches in Africa which enioyed the communion of that vnity which Ticonius defended from which they had diuided themselues How fitly these words agree to Catholiques in England in respect of the Protestants I desire the Reader to consider But these and the like resemblances of Protestants to the Donatistes I willingly let passe and onely vrge the maine point That since Luthers Reformed Church was not in being for diuers Centuries before Luther and yet was because so forsooth they will needs haue it in the Apostles time they must of necessity affirme heretically with the Donatists that the true and vnspotted Church of Christ perished that she which remained on earth was O blasphemy an Harlot Moreouer the same heresy followes out of the doctrine of D. Potter and other Protestants that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall because we haue shewed that euery errour against any one reuealed truth is Heresy and damnable whether the matter be otherwise of it selfe great or small And how can the Church more truly be sayd to perish then when she is permitted to maintaine a damnable Heresy Besides we will heereafter proue that by any act of Heresy all diuine fayth is lost to imagine a true Church of faithfull persons without any fayth is as much as to fancy a liuing man without life It is therefore cleere that Donatist-like they hold that the Church of Christ perished yea they are worse then the Donatists who said that the Church remained at least in Africa whereas Protestants must of necessity be forced to grant that for a long space before Luther she was no where at all But let vs goe forward to other reasons 18. The holy Scripture and Ancient Fathers do assigne Separation from the Visible Church as a marke of Heresy according to that of S. Iohn They went out (b) 2. Ioan 19. from vs. And Some who (c) Act. 15.24 went out from
world amongst all men of the world elected him he speakes of S. Peter to whom he granted the Chaire of Doctour to be principally possessed by a perpetuall right of Priuiledge that whosoeuer is desirous to know any diuine and profound thing may haue recourse to the Oracle and Doctrine of this instruction Iohn Patriarck of Constantinople more then eleauen hundred yeares agoe in an Epistle to Pope Hormisda writeth thus Because (u) Epist ad Hormis PP the beginning of saluation is to conserue the rule of right Fayth in no wise to swarue from the tradition of our for-Fathers because the words of our Lord cannot faile saying Thou art Peter and vpon this Rocke I will build my Church the proofes of deeds haue made good those words because in the Sea Apostolicall the Catholique Religion is alwayes conserued inuiolable And againe We promise heerafter not to recite in the sacred Mysteries the names of them who are excluded from the Communion of the Catholique Church that is to say who consent not fully with the Sea Apostolique Many other Authorities of the ancient Fathers might be produced to this purpose but these may serue to shew that both the Latin Greeke Fathers held for a Note of being a Catholique or an Heretique to haue been vnited or diuided from the Sea of Rome And I haue purposely alledged only such Authorities of Fathers as speake of the priuiledges of the Sea of Rome as of things permament and depending on our Sauiours promise to S. Peter from which a generall rule and ground ought to be taken for all Ages because Heauen and Earth shall (w) Matt. 24.35 passe but the word of our Lord shall remaine for euer So that I heere conclude that seing it is manifest that Luther and his followers diuided themselues from the Sea of Rome they beare the inseparable Marke of Heresy 20. And though my meaning be not to treate the point of Ordination or Succession in the Protestants Church because the Fathers alledged in the last reason assigne Succession as one marke of the true Church I must not omit to say that according to the grounds of Protestants themselues they can neyther pretend personall Succession of Bishops nor Succession of doctrine For whereas Succession of Bishops signifies a neuer-interrupted line of Persons endued with an indeleble Quality which Deuines call a Character which caÌ„not be taken away by deposition degradation or other meanes whatsoeuer and endued also with Iurisdiction and Authority to teach to preach to gouerne the Church by lawes precepts censures c. ProtestaÌ„ts cannot pretend SuccessioÌ„ in either of these For besids that there was neuer Protestant Bishop before Luther and that there can be no continuance of Succession where there was no beginning to succeed they coÌ„monly acknowledge no Character consequently must affirme that when their pretended Bishops or Priests are depriued of Iurisdiction or degraded they remaine meere lay Persons as before their Ordination fulfilling what Tertâ—â—â—lian obiects as a marke of Heresy To day a Priest to morrow (x) Praeser çap. 41. a Lay-man For if there be no immoueable Character their power of Order must consist onely in Iurisdiction and authority or in a kind of morall deputation to some function which therefore may be taken away by the same power by which it was giuen Neither can they pretend Succcession in Authority or Iurisdiction For all the Authority or Iurisdiction which they had was conferred by the Church of Rome that is by the Pope Because the whole Church collectiuely doth not meet to ordayne Bishops or Priests or to giue them Authority But according to their owne doctrine they belieue that the Pope neyther hath or ought to haue any Iurisdiction Power Superiority Preheminence or Authority Ecclesiasticall or Spirituall within this Realme which they sweare euen when they are ordained Bishops Priests and Deacons How then can the Pope giue Iurisdiction where they sweare he neyther hath nor OVGHT to haue any Or if yet he had how could they without Schisme withdraw themselues from his obedience Besides the Roman Church neuer gaue them Authority to oppose Her by whome it was giuen But grant their first Bishops had such Authority from the Church of Rome after the decease of those men who gaue Authority to their pretended Successours The Primate of England But from whome had he such Authority And after his decease who shall conferre Authority vpon his Successours The temporall Magistrate King Henry neyther a Catholique nor a Protestant King Edward a Child Queene Elizabeth a Woman An Infant of one houres Age is true King in case of his Predecessours decease But shal your Church lye fallow till that Infant-King and greene Head of the Church come to yeares of discretion Doe your Bishops your Hierarchy your Succession your Sacraments your being or not being Heretiques for want of Succession depeÌ„d on this new-found Supremacy-doctrine brought in by such a man meerely vpon base occasions and for shamefull ends impugned by Caluin and his followers derided by the Christian world euen by chiefe Protestants as D. Andrewes Wotton c. not held for any necessary point of fayth And from whome I pray you had Bishops their Authority when there were no Christian Kinges Must the Greeke Patriarks receiue spirituall Iurisdiction from the Greeke Turke Did the Pope by the Baptisme of Princes loose the spirituall Power he formerly had of conferring spirituall Iurisdiction vpon Bishops Hath the temporall Magistrate authority to preach to assoile from sinnes to inflict excommunications and other Censures Why hath he not Power to excommunicate as well as to dispense in Irregularity as our late Soueraigne Lord King Iames either dispensed with the late Archbishop of Canterbury or els gaue commission to some Bishops to doe â—t and since they were subiect to their Primate and not he to them it is cleere that they had no Power to dispense with him but that power must proceed from the Prince as Superiour to them all and head of the Protestants Church in England If he haue no such authority how can he giue to others what himselfe hath not Your Ordination or Consecration of Bishops and Priests imprinting no Character can only consist in giuing a Power Authority Iurisdiction or as I said before some kind of Deputation to exercise Episcopall or Priestly functions If then the temporall Magistrate confers this Power c. he can nay he cannot chuse but Ordaine and consecrate Bishops and Priests as often as he confers Authority or Jurisdiction and your Bishops as soone as they are designed and confirmed by the King must ipso faclo be Ordained and Consecrated by him without interuention of Bishops or Matter and Forme of Ordination Which absurdities you will be more vnwilling to grant then well able to auoid if you will be true to your owne doctrines The Pope from whom originally you must beg your Succession of Bishops neuer receiued nor will nor can acknowledge to
be saued whether their differeÌ„ces be great or smal 20. I haue told you already that the Author of the Moderate Examination c. is no Catholique That other Treatise entituled Syllabus aliquot Synodorum c. I haue not seen but if the Author pretend as you say that both Hugenots and Catholiques may be saued he can be no Catholique 21. You would faine auoide the note of Heretiques which is to be named by Moderne names deriued for the most part from their first Sect-Maisters You renounce the names of Lutherans Zwinglians or Caluinists and to that purpose you make halfe a Sermon But words will not serue your turne For they are no iniurious Nick-names as you say but names imposed by meere necessity to distinguish you from those from whom you really differ and to expresse the variety of your late Reformation If we speake of Christians or Catholiques without some addition no man will dreame of you but will thinke of vs who had that Name before Luther appeared and therefore it cannot expresse the latter Reformation If you wil be called the Reformed Church still the doubt remaynes whether you meane those who follow Luther or Caluin or Zwinglius c. Neyther will the Reformed Church if she be in her wits make her selfe lyable to all errors of Lutherans Caluinists Anabaptists Puritans c. And in this your prime man D. Field is more ingenious while he acknowledgeth a necessity of the name of Lutherans in these words Neyther was it possible (q) Of the Church lib. 2. cap. 9. p. 59. that so great an alteration should be effected and not carry some remembrance of them by whome it was procured And Whitaker sayth For distinctions sake we are inforced to vse the (r) In his answer to Reynolds Preface pag. 44. name of Protestants And Grauerus giueth a reason why those of the same Sect with him be called Lutherans saying The only reason (s) In his Absurda AbsurdoruÌ„ c. in Praefat. of it is that we may be distinguished froÌ„ Caluinists Papists from whom we cannot be distinguished by the generall name eyther of ChristiaÌ„s or of Orthed oxe or of Catholiques And Hospinianus likewise sayth I abhorre the Schismaticall names (t) In his Prologomena of Lutherans Zwinglians and Caluinist marke the Shismaticall names yet for distinction sake I will vse these names in this History The vulgar Obiection which you bring that amongst vs also there are Franciscans DominicaÌ„s Scotistes Loyalists c. is pertinent only to coÌ„uince you of manifest Nouelty For those Names are not imposed to signify difference in fayth as the Names of Lutherans Caluinists are but eyther diuers Institutes of Religion as Dominicans Franciscans c. or els diuersity of opinions concerning some points not defined by the Church as Thomists Scotists c. And for as much as these Names be argumeÌ„ts of new and particular Institutes and are deriued from particular men they likewise proue that the names of Lutherans Caluinists c. being giuen vpoÌ„ diuersity in fayth must argue a new beginning a new Sect and Sect-Maisters concerning Fayth D. Field is full to our purpose saying We must obserue that they who professe the fayth of Christ (u) Vbi sup pag. 58. haue been somtymes in these latter ages of the Church called after the speciall names of such men as were the Authours Beginners and Deuisers of such courses of Monasticall Profession as they made choyce to follow as Benedictins and such like And in his other words following he answers your obiection of the Scotists and Thomists affirming their differences to haue been in the Controuersies of Religion not yet determined by consent of the Vniuersall Church What can be more cleere that our differences concerne not matters of Fayth and that the names which you mention of FraÌ„ciscans Dominicans c. signify a Meanes of that for which they are imposed and which they are appointed to signify and therfore proue that the names of Lutherans c. must signify a Nouclty in fayth 22. But you say that the iarres and diuisions betweene (w) pag. 87. the Lntherans and Caluinists doe little concerne the Church of England which followeth none but Christ. And doe not Lutherans and Caluinists pretend to follow Christ as well as you Who shall be Iudge among you But you may easily be well assured that as long as you follow him by contrary wayes you can neuer come where he is And yet indeed doe these â—arres little concerne the Church of England Haue you in your Church none of those who are commonly called Lutherans Zwinglians Caluinists Puritans c. Doth it not behooue you to consider whether your Congregation can be One true Church of Christ while you are in Communion with so many disagreeing Sects Doth it little concerne you whether your first Reformers Lutherans Caluinists Zwinglians Puritanes be Heretiques or no How can it be but that the diuisions of Lutherans and Caluinists must concerne the Church of England For your Church cannot agree with them all if you side with one part you must iarre with the other Or if you agree with none of them you disagree with all so make a greater diuision 23. And therfore being really distrustfull of this Answere you come at length to your maine refuge namely that their dissentions (x) Pag. 87. are neither many nor so materiall as to shake or touch the foundation But till you can once tell vs what points will shake the foundation you cannot be sure whether their dissentions be not such You say their (y) Pag. 90. difference about Consubstantiation and Vbiquity is not fundamentall because both agree that Christ is really and truly exhibited to ech faithfull Communicant and that in his whole Person he is euery where In this manner you may reconcile all heresies and say the Arians or Nestorians belieued Christ to be truly God that is by reall and true affection of Charity as many among you say Christ is really in the Sacrament that is by a reall figure or by a reall act of fayth as the Nestorians said of a reall act of Charity That euen according to them who deny the Trinity there is truly a Father Sonne and holy Ghost as in God there is truly Power Vnderstanding and Will but whether those Persons be really distinct or no that is as you say of Consubstantiation and Vbiquity a nicecity inscrutable to the wit of man and so a man may goe discoursing of all other Heresies which haue been condemned by the Church Is there not a maine difference of receiuing our Sauiours body in reall substance and in figure alone Or betwixt the immensity of our Sauiours Deity and the Vbiquity of his Humanity which destroies the Mysteries of his Natiuity Ascension c for who can ascend to the place where he is already You specify only the said difference betwixt Lutherans and Caluinists whereas you know there are many more
And therefore eyther Christ had no visible Church vpon Earth or else you must grant that it was the Church of Rome A truth so manifest that those ProtestaÌ„ts who affirme the Roman Church to haue lost the Nature being of a true Church do by ineuitable Consequence grant that for diuers Ages Christ had no visible Church on Earth from which errour because D. Potter disclaymeth he must of necessity maintaine that the Roman Church is free from fundamentall and damnable errour and that she is not cut of from the Body of Christ and the Hope of Saluation And if saith he any Zelots amongst vs haue proceeded (h) Jhid to heauier censures their zeale may be excused but their Charity and wisedome cannot be iustifyed 48. And to touch particulars which perhaps some may obiect No man is ignorant that the Grecians euen the Schismaticall Grecians do in most points agree with Roman Catholiques disagree from the Protestant Reformation They teach Transubstantiation which point D. Potter also (i) Pag. 229. confesseth Inuocation of Saints and Angels veneration of Reliques and Images Auricular Confession enioyned Satisfaction Confirmation with Chrisme Extreme-vnction All the seauen Sacraments Prayer Sacrifice Almes for the dead Monachisme That Priests may not marry after their Ordination In which points that the Grecians agree with the Roman Church appeareth by a Treatise published by the Protestant Deusnes of Wittemberg intituled Acta Theologorum Wittembergensium Icremiae Patriarchae Constantinop de Augustana Confesaone c. Wittembergae anno 1584. by the Protestant (k) De statu Eccles pag. 233. Crispinus by Syr Edwin Sands in the Relation of the State of Religion of the West And I wonder with what colour of truth to say no worse D. Potter could affirme that the Doctrines debated between the Protestats (l) pag. 22â— Rome are only the partiall particular fancies of the Roman Church vnlesse happily the opinion of TransubstaÌ„tiation may be excepted wherin the latter Grecians seene to agree with the Romanists Beside the Protestant Authors already cited Petrus Arcudius a Grecian and a learned Catholique Writer hath published a large Volume the Argument and Title wherof is Of the agreement of the Roman and Greeke Church in the seauen Sacraments As for the Heresy of the Grecians that the Holy Ghost proceeds not from the Sonne I suppose that Protestants disauow them in that errour as we doe 49. D. Potter will not I thinke so much wrong his reputation as to tell vs that the Waldenses Wicctiffe Husse or the like were Protestants because in some things they disagreed from Catholiques For he well knowes that the example of such men is subiect to these manifest exceptions They were not of all Ages nor in all Countries but confined to certaine places and were interrupted in Time against the notion and nature of the word Catholique They had no Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy nor Succession of Bishops Priests and Pastours They differed among themselues and from Protestants also They agreed in diuers things with vs against Protestants They held doctrines manifestly absurd and damnable heresies 50. The Waldenses begun not before the yeare 1218. so far were they from Vniuersality of all Ages For their doctrine first they denied all Iudgments which extended to the drawing of bloud and the Sabbaoth for which cause they were called In-sabbatists Secondly they taught that Lay men and women might consecrate the Sacrament and preach no doubt but by this meanes to make their Maister Waldo a meere lay man capable of such functions Thirdly that Clergy men ought to haue no possessions or proprieties Fourthly that there should be no diuision of Parishes nor Churches for a walled Church they reputed as a barne Fiftly that men ought not to take an oath in any case Sixtly that those persons sinned mortally who accompanied without hope of issue Seauenthly they held all things done aboue the girdle by kissing touching words compression of the breasts c. to be done in Charity and not against Continency Eightly that neither Priest nor ciuill Magistrate being guilty of mortall sinne did enioy their dignity or were to be obeyed Ninthly they condemned Princes and Iudges Tenthly they affirmed singing in the Church to be an hellish clamor Eleauenthly they taught that men might dissemble their Religion and so accordingly they went to Catholique Churches dissembling their Fayth and made Offertories confessions and communions after a dissembling manner Waldo was so vnlearned that sayth (m) Act. Mon. pag. 628. Fox he gaue rewards to certaine learned men to translate the holy Scripture for him and being thus holpen did as the same Fox there reporteth confer the forme of religion in his time to the infallible word of God A godly example for such as must needs haue the Scripture in English to be read by euery simple body with such fruit of godly doctrine as we haue seen in the foresaid grosse heresies of Waldo The followers of Waldo were like their Maister so vnlearned that some of them sayth (n) Ibid. Fox expounded the words Ioan. 1. Suieum non receperunt Swyne did not receiue him And to conclude they agreed in diuers things with Catholiques against Protestants as may be seene in (o) Tract 2. cap. 2. sect subd 3. Brereley 51. Neither can it be pretended that these are slanders forged by Catholiques For besides that the same things are testified by Protestant Writers as Illyrâ—cus Cowper others our Authours cannot be suspected of partiality in disfauour of Protestants vnles you will say perhaps that they were Prophets and some hundred yeares agoe did both foresee that there were to be Protestants in the world and that such Protestants were to be like the Waldenses Besides from whence but from our Histories are Protestants come to know that there were any such men as the Waldenses and that in some points they agreed with the Protestants and disagreed from them in others And vpon what ground can they belieue our Authours for that part wherin the Waldenses were like to Protestants and imagine they lyed in the rest 52. Neither could Wicliffe continue a Church neuer interrupted from the time of the Waldenses after whom he liued more then one hundred and fifty yeares to wit the yeare 1371. He agreed with Catholiques about the worshipping of Reliques and Images and about the Intercession of our blessed Lady the euer Immaculate Mother of God he went so far as to say It seemes to me (p) In serm de Assump Marte impossible that we should be rewarded without the intercession of the Virgin Mary He held seauen Saciaments Purgatory and other points And against both Catholiques and Protestants he maintained sundry damnable doctrines as diuers Protestant Writers relate As first If a Bishop or Priest be in deadly sinne he doth not indeed either giue Orders Consecrate or Baptize Secondly That Ecclesiasticall Ministers ought not to haue any temporall possessions nor propriety in any thing but should