rewarder of them that seeke him F. I asked How then it happened as Mr Rogers saith that the English Church is not yet resolued what is the right sense of the Article of Christ's descending into Hell B. The English Church neuer made doubt that I know what was the sense of that Article The words are so plaine they beare their meaning before them Shee was content to put that Article among those to which she requires subscription not as doubting of the sense but to preuent the Cauills of some who had beene too busie in crucifying that Article and in making it all one with the Article of the Crosse or but an Exposition of it And sure the B. thinkes and so doe I That the Church of England is better resolued of the right sense of this Article than the Church of Rome especially if she must be tryed by her Writers as you trie the Church of England by Mr Rogers For you cannot agree whether this Article be a meere Tradition or whether it hath any place of Scripture to warrant it Scotus and Stapleton allow it no footing in Scripture but Bellarmine is resolute that this Article is euerie where in Scripture and Thomas grants as much for the whole Creed The Church of England neuer doubted it and S. Augustine prooues it And yet againe you are different for the sense For you agree not whether the Soule of Christ in triduo mortis in the time of his death did goe downe into Hell really and was present there or virtually and by effects onely For Thomas holds the first and Durand holds the latter Then you agree not whether the Soule of Christ did descend really and in essence into the lowest Pit of Hell and place of the Damned as Bellarmine once held probable and prooued it or really only into that place or Region of Hell which you call Limbum Patrum and then but virtually from thence into the Lower Hell to which Bellarmine reduces himselfe and giues his reason because it is the common opinion of the Schoole Now the Church of England takes the words as they are in the Creed and beleeues them without further dispute and in that sense which the antient Primitiue Fathers of the Church agreed in And yet if any in the Church of England should not be throughly resolued in the sense of this Article Is it not as lawfull for them to say I conceiue thus or thus of it yet if any other way of his Descent be found truer than this I denie it not but as yet I know no other as it was for Durand to say it and yet not impeach the Foundation of the Faith F. The B. said That Mr Rogers was but a priuate man But said I if Mr Rogers writing as he did by publike Authoritie be accounted onely a priuate man c. B. The B. said truth when he said Mr Rogers was a priuate man And I take it you will not allow euerie speech of euerie man though allowed by Authoritie to be printed to be the Doctrine of the Church of Rome This hath beene oft complained of on both sides The imposing particular mens Assertions vpon the Church yet I see you meane not to leaue it And surely as Controuersies are now handled by some of your partie at this day I may not say it is the sense of the Article in hand but I haue long thought it a kind of descent into Hell to be conuersant in them I would the Authors would take heed in time and not seeke to blind the people or cast a mist before euident Truth least it cause a finall descent to that place of Torment But since you hold this course Stapleton was of greater note with you than Rogers is with vs and as he so his Relection And is it the Doctrine of the Church of Rome which he affirmes The Scripture is silent that Christ descended into Hell and that there is a Catholike and an Apostolike Church If it be then what will become of the Pope's Supremacie ouer the whole Church Shall hee haue his power ouer the Catholike Church giuen him expressely in Scripture in the Keyes to enter and in Pasce to feed when he is in and when he hath fed to confirme and in all these not to erre and faile in his ministration And is the Catholike Church in and ouer which he is to doe all these great things quite left out Belike the Holy Ghost was carefull to giue him his power Yes in any case but left the assigning of his great Cure the Catholike Church to Tradition And it were well for him if hee could so prescribe for what he now claymes But what if after all this Mr Rogers there sayes no such thing as in truth he doth not His words are All Christians acknowledge he descended but in the interpretation of the Article there is not that consent that were to be wished What is this to the Church of England more than others And againe Till wee know the natiue and vndoubted sense of this Article is Mr Rogers Wee the Church of England or rather his and some others Iudgement of the Church of England F. But if Mr Rogers be onely a priuate man In what Booke may wee find the Protestants publike Doctrine The B. answered That to the Booke of Articles they were all sworne B. What was the B. so ignorant to say The Articles of the Church of England were the publike Doctrine of all the Protestants or That all Protestants were sworne to the Articles of England as this speech seemes to implie Sure he was not Was not the immediate speech before of the Church of England And how comes the subiect of the speech to be varyed in the next Lines Nor yet speake I this as if other Protestants did not agree with the Church of England in the chiefest Doctrines against which they ioyntly take exceptions against the Romane Church as appeares by their seuerall Confessions Nor did the B. say That the Booke of Articles onely was the Continent of the Church of Englands publike Doctrine Shee is not so narrow nor hath shee purpose to exclude any thing which shee acknowledges hers nor doth shee wittingly permit any crossing of her publike declarations Yet shee is not such a Shrew to her Children as to denie her Blessing or denounce an Anathema against them if some peaceably dissent in some particulars remoter from the Foundation as your owne Schoolemen differ And if the Church of Rome since shee grew to her greatnesse had not beene so fierce in this course Christendome I persuade my selfe had beene in happier peace at this day F. And that the Scriptures onely not any vnwritten Tradition was the Foundation of their Faith B. The Church of England grounded her Positiue Articles vpon Scripture and her Negatiue Refute where the thing affirmed by you is not affirmed in Scripture nor directly
part of them obserue Vnitie in the Bond of Peace in things essentiall and in the common Rule of Faith And although the qualitie of Teachers be a motiue of credibilitie yet the power of persuasion dependeth properly vpon the Word of Christ and they which disagree in other matters and with a common consent teach the maine and principall Doctrine of Faith must therein be credited because of the prime Author himselfe If humane frailetie discord and error in some things should totally discredit the Authoritie of Teachers the World must receiue no Diuine Veritie by the Ministerie of men because amongst men Non germinat granum Veritatis sine palea Vanitatis The good Seed of Veritie springeth not without some Chaffe of Vanitie S. Cyprian S. Augustine S. Hierome c. disagree in some things and Tertullian and Origen haue many errors and therein are reprooued by others and yet the rest of their Doctrine wherein they teach truly receiueth no preiudice from their contrarie errors The Iesuits and Dominicans and other Scholasticks desire to be esteemed credible Witnesses and yet there is no small contention betwixt them concerning sundrie Questions Although therefore some dissention bee found among Teachers yet their whole Doctrine is not thereby made incredible neyther is there perpetually in the true Church a visible and perspicuous concord in all things In the words ensuing the Aduersarie questioneth Doctor Field because hee affirmeth That Protestants Dissentions are not reall but apparent and verball Against this hee affirmeth That so long as Contentioners rest vnsatisfied and admit no Reconciliation saying That Reconcilers haue missed of their meaning it is vaine by distinctions to colour their Discord c. 〈◊〉 First To 〈◊〉 Discord by distinctions is no meanes of true 〈◊〉 but by 〈◊〉 to discouer and manifest that Contentioners 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 other and whereas they speake diuersty in 〈◊〉 yet they maintaine the same Veritie in substance this may be to good purpose Secondly Although A 〈◊〉 are many times froward and will not for the present admit the charitable constructions of moderate persons 〈◊〉 to reconcile them Exod. 2. 14. Act. 7.27 yet at the last Vnitie may be effected by this meanes and peaceable and moderate Christians ought in the meane season to gather the faire Lilly of sauing Veritie growing amidst the Thornes of humane Infirmitie IESVIT Fiftly I inferre That this Church is vniuersall spread ouer all Nations that she may be said to be euery where morally speaking that the whole knowne World may take notice of her as of a worthie and credible witnesse of Christian Tradition howsoeuer her outward glory and splendor peace and tranquilitie be sometimes obscured in some places more or lesse and not euer in all places at once ANSVVER The Church is vniuerfall First Because of time for it continueth successiuely in all Ages Matth. 28.20 Luc. 1.33 Secondly In regard of Persons and Places because no Countrey Nation State Age or Sex of People are excluded from being part of it Galat. 3.20 Act. 10.34 Apoc. 5.9 Thirdly In respect of Faith because Diuine Veritie constitutiue and which giueth being to the true Church continueth throughout all Ages 1. Pet. 1.25 Reuel 14.6 and is found in all the parts of the true Church But notwithstanding this the true Church is not perpetually vniuersall in regard of actuall amplitude and diffusion of visible Congregations throughout all Nations and inhabited Countreyes of the World for it may in some Ages in actu exercito and in regard of actuall residence remaine onely in a few Countreyes and Cardinall Bellarmine graunteth That if one sole Prouince of the World should retaine true Faith yet the Church might then be truly and properly called vniuersall if it could manifestly be shewed that the same were one with that Church which was once vniuersally spred ouer the world And although Deiure by right and according to the diuine Precept the true Church should at all times remaine and continue in those regions where it was once planted yet it happeneth by the malice and iniquitie of man that those places which once were a Sanctuarie of holinesse are afterwards changed into the habitation of Satan and into a cage of vncleane Birds The Iesuit perceiuing that it is impossible to defend a perpetuall actuall vniuersalitie of the Church presenteth vnto vs an imaginarie vniuersalitie his words are She may be said to be euerie where morally speaking c. I answere Morally speaking the Church cannot be said to be where it is altogether vnknowne and where no meanes are vsed or actions performed which are sufficient to make it knowne A king may morally be said to be in euery part of his kingdome because his lawes ministers and gouernment are extended throughout all his kingdome and king Richard the first when hee was in Syria might be said to be morally in England But the true Church in many ages hath no commerce with Infidels in things spirituall mediate or immediate the Faith Preaching and authoritie thereof is altogether vnknowne to many people to wit to the inhabitants of America for 1400. yeeres to many other nations of Affrica and Europe for 600. yeeres c. And many people which heare the fame of Christians in generall as they doe of the Iewes haue no meanes to distinguish Orthodoxe Beleeuers from Heretickes and they which vnderstand not the Doctrine of the true Church cannot take notice of her as of a worthie and credible witnesse of diuine Tradition IESVIT A truth so cleare that it may be euidently prooued out of Scripture that euen in Antichrists dayes the Church shall be visibly vniuersall for shee shall then bee euerie where persecuted which could not bee except shee were euerie where visible and conspicuous euen to the wicked ANSVVER Your former Proposition concerning the perpetuall locall vniuersalitie of the Church is as cleare as the Sunne-shine at midnight and the Arguments whereby you labour to prooue it are of no force First if it were granted that the true Church in the raigne of Antichrist should bee visibly vniuersall yet it is inconsequent Ergo The true Chnrch is perpetually and in all ages visibly vniuersall Separable accidents are sometimes present to the subiect and sometimes absent but visible vniuersalitie is a separable accident as appeareth by the state of the true Church in the first hundred yeere Secondly the words of Saint Iohn Apoc. 20. 8. are And when the thousand yeeres shall be consummate Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and shall goe foorth and seduce the nations which are vpon the foure corners of the earth Gog and Magog and shall gather them into battell the number of whom is as the sand of the Sea In this Prophesie nothing is deliuered which doth expresly or by consequence argue the visible vniuersalitie of the true Church in all ages 1. The nations which are vpon the foure corners of the earth seduced by
the one part from the other to wit because of the institution and signification Thus our Aduersarie is confuted touching Pope Leo and Gelasius by a most intelligent and learned Doctour of his owne societie IESVIT And as this is certaine and granted on our part so it is no lesse certaine that the Primitiue Church did neuer practise the vse of the Cup as pertaining to the essentiall integritie of the Sacrament or as commaunded by diuine precept but thought the recoiuing vnder one and both kinds a thing indifferent This may be prooued by the consideration of the time since Christs 〈◊〉 from our dayes vpward whence I gather fiue Arguments First is the confession of our Aduersaries amongst whom a Bohemian Protestant doth professe That hauing the feare of God before his eyes be dares not censure the Roman Church of Heresie in this point Hospinian writes that some Protestants confessed that whole christ was really present exhibited and receiued vnder euery kind and therefore vnder the onely forme of Bread and that they did not iudge those to do euill that communicated vnder one kind Melancthon As to eate or not to eate Swines flesh is placed in our power and athing indifferent so saith he J iudge of the Eucharist that they finne not who knowing and beleeuing this libertie doe vse either part of the figne And Luther They finne not against Christ who vse one kind seeing Christ doth not commaund to vse it but hath left it to the will of euerie one And Hospinian alledgeth Luther affirming Jt is not needfull to giue both kinds but the one alone sufficeth the Church hath power of ordaining onely one and the people ought to be content therewith if it be ordained by the Church But these testimonies though they may serue to stop the mouth of a clamorous Aduersarie yet are they not sufficient to satisfie any iuditious man in regard their Authors were men most vncertaine and various in their Doctrines about Religion now auerring as Orthodox and diuine Truth what soone after they fell to abhor as hereticall and impious ANSWER Concerning Luther Melancthon Iohannes Perzibram c. I answere that your benefactor Coccius to whom you are perpetually indebted for your readings alledgeth some such sayings out of these Authors but how truely it is vncertaine for in the ordinarie editions I find the contrarie deliuered by them made a Booke of Recognitions And it were more seemely for your selfe to reuoke your errours than to persist in a blind and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Truth IESVIT I adde therefore secondly the definitions of the three generall Councels celebrated before the breach of Luther from the Romane Church The Councell of Florence wherein were present the Grecian and Armenian Bishops where 〈◊〉 is defined that Christ is whole vnder each 〈◊〉 The Councell of 〈◊〉 though they allowed the vse of the Cup 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 defined the lawfulnesse of Communion vnder one kind The Councell of Constance gaue example vnto both these former Councels being the first that defined this truth ANSVVER You adde nothing of any worth for the Councels of Constance and Basil were in your owne eyes vncanonical and he adlesse and are reiected by your selues in diuers articles and when you prooue which will be Ad Calendas Graecas that the three Synods named by you were generall Councells it shall be granted that Communion in one kind is not destitute of generall Synodicall late Testimonie IESVIT The third argument is the receiued and allowed generall custome of the Church which spontaneously euen before the Councell of Constance did abstaine from the Cup as the said Councell doth acknowledge which may be prooued by the testimonies of many that liued before the Councell of Constance Yea Alexander Halensis who liued two hundred yeares before the 〈◊〉 of Constance sayeth That almost euerie where Lay men receiued vnder the sole for me of Bread And venerable Bede doth signifie That in the Church of England euer since the first 〈◊〉 of her vnder S. Gregorie was vsed 〈◊〉 vnder one kind for the Laitie which could neuer haue entred into the Church without being 〈◊〉 and marked as an Heresie had not the Church euer held Communion vnder one or both kinds as a thing of indifferencie ANSWER The Greeke Church alwayes receiued in both kinds as your selues acknowledge therefore Communion in one kind was at no time an vniuersall Custome Also Vasques the Iesuit saith Wee cannot denie but that euen in the Latine Church Communion in both kinds was vsed and had continuance vntill the age of Thomas Aquinas Alexander de Hales affirmeth There is more Merit and power of Grace in Communion in both kinds than in one Lastly you were guided with that Spirit which is mentioned 3. Kings 22. v. 21. when you affirme That venerable Bede saith in the Church of England euer since her first Conuersion vnder S. Gregorie Communion vnder one kind was in vse for the Laitie First No such report is found in this Author Secondly In one of the Testimonies cited by your selfe the contrarie is affirmed For the two Apostles which are reported to haue spoken to a certaine young Lad say as followeth You must wait vntill the Masse or Communion be ended and hauing then receiued the holy Food of the Lords Bodie and Bloud you shall be deliuered from your infirmitie by Death and exalted to coelestiall ioyes IESVIT The fourth Argument is drawne from many signes and tokens that the Primitiue Church did sometimes vse Communion vnder one kind First the 〈◊〉 receiued vnder the onely forme of Bread as may appeare by the History of Serapion related by Eusebius and the Graecians at this day though they giue the Cup to the Communicants in the Church yet to the sicke they send the Sacrament vnder one kind Yea S. Ambrose as Paulinus relateth in his life at his death receiued the Sacrament vnder the sole forme of Bread and straight after the receiuing thereof gaue vp his soule ANSWER First touching Serapion related by Eusebius he receiued both Bread and Wine for the ladde which brought the Portion of the Eucharist was commanded by the Priest which sent him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to sop the Bread into Wine and being moistened to put it into the old mans mouth and this was performed accordingly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the ladde wetted or moistened the Portion of Bread which he receiued of the Priest and infused the same into Serapion the old mans mouth and the Councell of Towers alleadged by Burchardus and Iuo reporteth the manner and reason of dipping the Bread in this sort We command That the Eucharist which is 〈◊〉 to be giuen sicke Persons shall be dipped into the bloud of our Lord that the Priest may say in truth The body and bloud of our Lord Iesus Christ profit thee to life eternall Which dipping sheweth that they thought it not sufficient to
it had beene a sacred image of Christ or of some Saint and which was worshipped by some Christians newly conuerted from Paganisme with heathenish honours But if this glosse had beene likely it is very improbable that Cardinall Bellarmine and some other also who haue written since Vasques would haue esteemed it so lightly And Epiphanius his text will not beare this exposition For he saith that at the time when he wrote that Epistle he did not remember to wit perfectly whose image this was but if Epiphanius himselfe did not remember whose image it was whether of Christ or of a Saint or of some other man how knowes this Iesuit that it was the image of a prophane person Besides if it had beene the picture of some prophane person or Pagan superstitiously worshipped wherefore was Epiphanius silent in relating hereof considering that the bare narration of so grosse a fact would most apparently haue iustified the whole proceeding but he affirmeth only in defence of his action That entring into an Oratorie and there espying a vaile or hanging whereon was figured the image of a man which he did not when he wrote the Epistle remember whether it were Christ his picture or any other of the Saints he cut the same in peeces and withall commanded that no such painted vayles should hereafter be suffered to hang in the Church IESVIT Wherefore seeing this Minister so much esteemed in the Church of England saying what he can deuise in proofe of the Romane Churches change about Images brings nothing but manifest falshoods so many in so few lines any indifferent man may conclude that worship of Images hath continued without change euer since the Apostles For if any change in such matter as this had beene made it would haue beene most euident when and by whom so great a Noueltie was introduced ANSVVER The Minister whom you depraue was no otherwise esteemed in the Church of England than 〈◊〉 an ordinarie Student and professour of Theologie neither was his authoritie in handling of controuersies greater than the waight of his argument and disputation should deserue And your Hyperbole saying That he bringeth nothing but manifest falshoods is rather an vndigested cruditie of rayling words than a true censure of him against whom you are better able to declame then dispute But your threadbare argument whereby you labour to prooue That worship of Images hath continued without change euer since the Apostles because it would haue beene most euident when and by whom so great a noueltie was introduced hath at the least three lame feet First The Antecedent is false for it is euident to iudicious men when and by whom this noueltie was brought in as for those which are blinded with superstition and haue a feared conscience nothing is euident to such Secondly This Argument presupposeth that Worship of Images was generally practised among Christians in the dayes of the Apostles and in the Primatiue Church for otherwise why shall Protestants be bound explicitely to assigne the time of Alteration If this practise was not Apostolicall and Primatiue the succeeding practise whensoeuer it began and whether we can assigne or not assigne when and by whom maketh not the same lawfull Thirdly Ab ignoratione rei ad negationem non sequitur It is inconsequent to argue Protestants cannot out of humane Historie assigne the moment of time when worship of Images first began to be practised in the Church Ergo This practise is not an Innouation For Papists cannot assigne the moment of time when Heathens first began to worship Baal and Ashtaroth or when the Progenitors of Abraham began to serue other Gods Iosh. 24. 2. And yet they will iudge the consequence to be absurd which should inferre because Papists cannot assigne when and by whom such Innouations began therefore they were perpetuall Wee expect diuine Reuelation to warrant Adoration of Images for vnlesse that appeare the same cannot bee a necessarie dutie in Religion But the Iesuit would ambush himselfe in the Laborinth of Historicall Discourse which can produce onely humane beleefe when it is plaine and certaine but being also vncertaine and not faithfully kept it may perplex and deceiue and beget contention whereas on the contrarie Diuine Reuelation settles the conscience and makes the Truth manifest IESVIT §. 3. The places of Exodus and Deuteronomie with no probabilitie vrged against the worship of Images by Protestants that make them Against Image worship Protestants bring in the place of Exodus Chap. 20. ver 4. 5. and of Deuteron cap. 5. ver 6. 7. Thou shalt not haue false gods before me Thou shalt not make to thy selfe a grauen Jmage nor any likenesse either in the heauen aboue or on the earth below or of things that are vnder waters or vnder ground Thou shalt not adore nor worship them Which place I wonder they can thinke strong enough to ouerthrow a Custome in which the rules of Nature the principles of Christianitie the perpetuall Tradition of Gods Church doth settle Christians for this place makes against them or not against vs which I prooue thus The Images we are forbidden to worship we are forbidden to make Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Jmage thou shalt not adore them nor worship them Contrariwise The Jmages we may lawfully make we may also lawfully adore or worship if they be Images of venerable and adorable persons But the Images which we worship of Christ Protestants make yea some to wit Lutherans set them vp in their Churches and they are Images of an adoreable person Ergo They cannot condemne our Adoration of Jmages except likewise they condemne their making them as against Gods Law ANSVVER The places of Scripture alleaged by Protestants against Adoration of Images Exod. 20. 5. Deut. 5.8 are a part of the Morall Law therefore if the worshipping of Images was prohibited vnto the Israelites in the same it is also forbidden Christians and to worship Images is vnlawfull in the state of the New Testament The Aduersarie wondreth why Protestants should thinke that the 〈◊〉 places of Exodus and 〈◊〉 are strong enough to ouerthrow Image Worship being 〈◊〉 vpon 〈◊〉 of Nature Christianitie and Tradition First This latter Clause is onely a vaine ostentation and repetition of that which is formerly confuted Secondly The reason whereupon he groundeth his confident speech saying Which place I wonder they can thinke strong enough is wonderous weake as it will appeare by the Resolution and Answer of his Obiection This Argument in forme is If all worship of Images is prohibited Exod. 20. c. then all making them is also prohibited for the same Precept which saith Thou shalt not bow downe to them nor worship them saith in the former part Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. But all making of Images is not prohibited Exod. 20. Because Protestants themselues allow some kinde of Image making Ergo All worship of
vnder the elements of Bread and Wine But if Christ be not present wholly and totally vnder the forme of Bread he cannot be truely and really eaten Why then is his bodie brought from heauen to be there really present or how can the bodie of Christ being coextended in place according to the naturall dimensions thereof enter into the mouth of the Receiuer yea in at the mouth of the wicked and vnworthie as Fathers teach ANSWER That bodie which is neither circumscriptiuely nor definitiuely present in the outward signes is not substantially contained in the same The bodie of Christ is neither of these waies present in the outward signes not the first way for in circumscription the continent must be as large or ample as the thing contained not the second way for that which is definitiuely in one place cannot at the same time be substantially in another And yet although the bodie of Christ is not according to his materiall substance wholly and intirely vnder the outward elements notwithstanding the bread may truely be tearmed the bodie of Christ because of a relatiue Pactionall and Sacramentall Vnion and Donation of the things signified together with the signes worthily receiued For God Almightie hath made a Couenant with his Church and faithfull people to nourish their Soules with the liuely food of the Bodie and Bloud of Christ Ioh. 6.32 He hath also appointed a Sacrament in which there shall be made a representation and commemoration of his passion vntill his comming againe 1. Cor. 11.26 and he hath annexed a promise therunto which is that as often as the same is lawfully administred he will communicate to all worthie receiuers the Bodie and Bloud of Christ 1. Cor. 10.16 Now then when the outward Sacrament is administred and receiued as is aforesaid God remembring his Couenant reacheth vnto the soules of his people by the powerfull hand of the Holy Ghost the very bodie of his Sonne crucified and his blood shed and powred out and hereby feedeth and nourisheth them to eternall life The Obiect or thing carnally and bodily receiued is the Elementall Creature The Obiect and thing receiued spiritually and internally is the bodie and blood of Christ crucified vpon the Crosse. The Donour and distributer of this inward gift is the blessed Trinitie the Sonne of God himselfe and by appropriation the Holy Ghost The eating and drinking of it is by Faith Iohn 6. 29. 35.40.47 And thus if it be demanded What kind and manner of Presence we maintaine It is answered First a mentall and intellectuall presence by way of representation Secondly an exhibitiue presence by way of donation and Tradition on Gods part and faithfull reception on mans part whereby wee possesse the thing giuen and are vnited mystically to Christ our Head Now to the effecting hereof locall and corporeall presence is not necessarie A father and his sonne may bee absent by distance of place one from the other yet the sonne is truely and really vnited with his father so as his fathers nature is in him and he hath right in his fathers person and estate A mans goods may be at Constantinople and yet he liuing in England is a true possessour or owner and proprietarie of them and he may communicate and vse them and distance of place hindreth not his right and proprietie Now although there bee a difference betweene things temporall and spirituall yet thus farre there is agreement That euen as wee possesse temporall meanes being locally absent so likewise wee may receiue and partake Christs bodie and blood locally distant by the power of Faith and by the donation of the Holy Ghost according to a celestiall and spirituall manner For in Baptisme we are washed with the blood of Christ and wee put on the Lord Iesus Gal. 3.27 Now that which is absent cannot wash or bee put on in a naturall manner but a spirituall vnion and application is necessarie Euen so in the holy Eucharist wee are nourished with the bodie and bloud of our Sauiour but to the performance hereof locall presence or presence by indistance of place is of no vse but a spirituall vnion and application is sufficient These things premised the Iesuits Argument is answered as followeth First The bodie and bloud of Christ are in such sort truly and really presented in the holy Eucharist as that they are truly and really eaten not bodily but spiritually by Faith Secondly Although they be receiued by Faith onely yet they are truly and really communicated by the powerfull operation of the Holy Ghost Thirdly Christs bodie is not brought locally from Heauen vnto Earth but being crucified vpon the Crosse is symbollically represented vpon Earth by the Sacramentall signes and actions and being locally at this day sitting on Gods right hand in Heauen is also truly and effectually communicated and giuen to worthie Communicants Fourthly The Sacrament is not instituted in vaine although Christs bodie and bloud are not locally present in the outward Elements For if vpon the worthie receiuing of the Sacrament the Holy Ghost truly and effectually communicates vnto vs Christs bodie and bloud to be the food and life of our soules and doth not so effectually and fruitfully communicate the same by any other meanes then there is great vse of this Sacrament and vnspeakable benefit receiued by it although Christs bodie and bloud are not locally contained within the outward signes Fifthly The Fathers teach not that Infidels and wicked persons receiue in at their bodily mouth the naturall bodie and bloud of Christ. First The Fathers cited in the Margine of the Iesuits booke speake not of wicked and vnworthie persons Secondly They affirme expressely That Infidels and wicked persons receiue the bodie of Christ onely Sacramento tenus that is according to the visible signe and not reuera in truth and in deed Panem Domini non Panem Dominum The Bread of the Lord and not the Bread which is the Lord or the Lords Bodie The Author bearing the name of S. Cyprian saith Lambunt Petram Wicked men like AEsops Foxe licke the outside of the Rocke but sucke not out the Honey They receiue saith Bernard Corticem Sacramenti furfur Carnis the outward Barke of the Sacrament and the Branne of Christs flesh Beda Omnis Infidelis non vescitur carne Christi No vnbeleeuer eateth the flesh of Christ. Hilarius Panis qui descendit de Coelo non nisi ab eo accipitur qui Dominum habet Christi membrum est The Bread which came downe from Heauen is receiued of him onely which hath the Lord and is a member of Christ. Cyril of Alexandria For as much as wicked men doe not liue nor are reformed to immortalitie they eat not that flesh Origen If it were possible for one perseuering a wicked man to eat the Word which became Flesh being liuing Bread it would not haue beene written Whosoeuer eateth this Bread shall liue
by a voluntatrie and prouisionall Mandate touching Recicide vnlesse you were otherwise proni ad rem bent to mischiefe Et luxato hoc freno and this Paper bridle being broken to broach and inculcate it If this your Masters hand shall cast Crosse in stead of Pile what shall we expect from such Gamesters Quibus ludus sunt capita diademata Regum IESVIT This onely I hope J may with your Maiesties good liking affirme That our Catholicke Doctrine in this Point is nothing so preiuditiall to Princes as are the Opinions of most Caluinists and Lutherans expressed in their Writings whereof we haue in this age but ouer-euident and lamentable examples to the world and your Maiestie not vnknowne And had the Authours of the Gunpowder Treason which from my soule I abhorre kept themselues within the bounds of Catholicke Doctrine they had neuer vndergone that most odious and abominable enterprise ANSWER By a draught of Sea water one may iudge of the brackishnesse of the whole His gratious Maiestie hath tasted alreadie of some fruits of Popish loyaltie and the Gunpowder Treason animalised by Iesuits but now disauowed for it succeeded not is a Watchword for prudent men not to confide in them whom the leuen of Superstition hath sowred But is the wit of a Iesuit growne so barren Haue you no other euasion but by recrimination and that impertinent For as concerning your Flim-flam of Caluinists and Lutherans I answere His Maiestie and the State of England hath felt no such disturbance but haue obserued by long experience that it cannot enter into any true Protestants heart vpon any occasion whatsoeuer to lift vp their heads against the Lords Annointed and if any vnsound or equiuocall member appeare among them diuerse from the true bodie let them receiue censure according to their demerits IESVIT As for the other Question which your Maiestie proposeth particularly to my selfe viz. What I thinke Subiects ought to doe in the case of Papall deposition of their Prince I can giue no better Councell vnto others than what J am resolued to take my selfe First to pray for peace and tranquilitie and true concord betweene both parties Secondly to exhort all to doe all other good offices tending thereunto and rather to suffer with patience than any way concurre to the preiudice of the Prince or disturbance of the Commonwealth Thirdly J doe protest before Almightie God that I would rather offer my selfe to die than any way to bee accessarie to your Maiesties death All which things most sincerely vttered by mee I humbly beg your Maiestie would vouchsafe to receiue as issuing from the conceits and hearts of all my Profession whose institutes particularly commandeth respect and obedience to all in authoritie as in the beginning of this Discourse I made plaine vnto your Maiestie vnto whom wee especially who are your borne subiects doe beare so vnfained affection that we should thinke our selues happie if your Maiestie would vouchsafe but to make tryall thereof not doubting but your Excellent Iudgement would soone discouer vs to be not onely as loyall as any other of your Subiects but more willing to imploy our wits pennes and labours euen with hazard of our liues in performing your Maiesties Commandements than many who inioying the fauour of the time make faire shewes of their owne affections and fidelitie and vncharitably traduce vs as capitall enemies to your Maiestes Person State and Dignitie ANSWER It is needlesse to make many words for if your heart and pen accord testifie the same by taking the Oath of Allegiance and by renouncing the pestilent opinion of Equiuocation therwise your Insinuations and Blandishments are but Maskes and Tectures of latent perfidiousnesse and they which are acquainted with Romish guile must still suspect that you play the Foxe Astutam vapido gestans sub pectore vulpem Ore aliud retinens aliud sub pectore Condens Now concerning this precedent passage let it bee obserued how the Iesuit hath not answered but declined his Maiesties Question And we must hold him to stand mute as one not daring to put himselfe to his Countrey lest he be found guiltie For the question is What ought the subiect to doe in case a Pope depose the King The Iesuits answere is I pray for peace I exhort others I would rather die c. Hansome complements but no securitie If his Holinesse send another wind you which haue vowed strict obedience to the Pope must turne your sailes your Votes and Prayers must bound another way you must exhort others to execute the Popes pleasure and if they and you perish in the Popes quarrell you die Martirs and goe to heauen in a string The IESVITS Conclusion HAuing performed your Maiesties will and pleasure in seeking to giue satisfaction about the Nine principall points that withhold your Royall assent from ioyning vnto the Roman Church my poore indeauours prostrate at your Maiesties feet to receiue their doome humbly beseech this fauor That your charitie and desire of the vnitie of the Church may ioyne together with your excellent Wisdome and Learning to pronounce the sentence Although I be confident that examining Religion by the meere rigour of only Scripture the Catholicke Doctrines would get the victorie more cleare and expresse Testimonies standing on our side than any that Protestants can bring for themselues as by the former Discourse may appeare although also I be much more confident in the Tradition perfect practise of the Church interpreting Scripture which by so full consent deliuers the Roman Doctrines that partialitie it selfe duely pondering can hardly in heart and in wardly iudge against them yet my chiefest hope is in those charitable thoughts and desires of Peace and Vnitie in the whole Christian world which the holy Ghost hath inspired into your Religious brest ANSVVER You deceiue your selfe touching his Maiestie for not onely these Nine points but many other detaine his royal assent from ioyning with the Romane Faith Secondly Your ostentation of proouing these Articles by the meere rigout of sole Scripture is Vanitas Vanitatum A vanitie beyond vanitie for the learned of your owne part acknowledge that many of your Romish Articles are neither expresly nor inuoluedly contained in holy Scripture Neither againe can your Faith subsist if it be tried by Genuine and Orthodoxall Tradition for your selfe in this Treatise wherein you performe as much in substance as your cause will beare haue made no demonstration of any one Article by the Testimonie of perpetuall Tradition and it seemeth to me that you are conscious hereof because in your Conclusion you fall vpon a new Disputation and seeke to inferre a necessitie of reducing all Controuersies to the meere and absolute determination of the Romane Church and Pope who will not faile to be fast friends to themselues IESVIT For suppose that praeconceit instilled into tender minds against them thinke comparing Catholickes with Protestants that Scriptures stand equally on both sides yea sifting
Heauen especially to them that haue had the Truth manifested the heart of this Argument were broken Besides the force of this Argument lyes vpon two things one expressed the other vpon the By. First That which is expressed is Wee and our Aduersaries consent That there is saluation to some in the Romane Church What would you haue vs as malicious at least as rash as your selues are to vs and denie you so much as possibilitie of saluation If wee should wee might make you in some things straine for a Proofe But wee haue not so learned Christ as eyther to returne euill for euill in this headie course or to denie Saluation to some ignorant silly Soules whose humble peaceable obedience makes them safe among any part of men that professe the Foundation Christ. And therefore seeke not to helpe our cause by denying this comfort to silly Christians as you most fiercely doe where you can come to worke vpon them And this was an old Tricke of the Donatists For in the Point of Baptisme Whether that Church or in the part of Donatus they 〈◊〉 all to be baptised among them Why because both parts 〈◊〉 that 〈◊〉 was true 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 which that peeuish Sect most vniustly denyed the sound part as S. Augustine deliuers it I would aske now Had not they Orthodoxe Baptisme among them because the Donatists denyed it iniuriously Or should the Orthodoxe against Truth haue denyed Baptisme among the Donatists to crie 〈◊〉 with them Or that their Argument might not be the stronger because both parts graunted But marke this how farre you runne from all common Principles of Christian Peace as well as Christian Truth while you denie Saluation most vniustly to vs from which you are further off your selues Besides if this were or could be made a concluding Argument I pray why doe not you beleeue with vs in the Point of the Eucharist For all sides agree in the Faith of the Church of England That in the most blessed Sacrament the worthie Receiuer is by his Faith made spiritually partaker of the true and Reall Bodie and Bloud of Christ truly and really and of all the benefits of his Passion Your 〈◊〉 adde a manner of this his presence Transubstantiation which manie denie and the Lutherans a manner of this presence Consubstantiation which more denie If this Argument be good then euen for this consent it is safer communicating with the Church of England than with the Romane or Lutheran because all agree in this Truth not in any other Opinion And therefore if you will force the Argument to make that the safest way of Saluation which differing parts agree on Why doe you not yeeld to the force of the same Argument in the 〈◊〉 of the Sacrament one of the most immediate meanes of Saluation where not onely the most but all agree Secondly The other vpon the By which helpesthis Argument is your continuall poore Out-crie against vs That wee cannot be saued because wee are 〈◊〉 of the Church Sure if I thoughtI were out I would get in as fast as I could But what doe you meane by Out of the Church Sure out of the Romane Church Why but the Romane Church and the Church of England are but two distinct members of that Catholike Church which is spread ouer the face of the Earth Therefore Rome is not the House where the Church dwells but Rome it selfe as well as other particular Churches dwells in this great Vniuersall House vnlesse you will shut vp the Church in Rome as the Donatists did in Africke I come a little lower Rome and other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are in this 〈◊〉 to whom 〈◊〉 Christ the care of the Household is committed by God the Father and the Catholike Church the Mother of 〈◊〉 Christians Rome as an elder Sister had a great 〈◊〉 committed vnto her in and from the prime times of the Church and to her Bishop in her but at this time to 〈◊〉 passe manie 〈◊〉 that 〈◊〉 formerly beene in the House England and some other Sisters of hers are fallen out in the House What then Will the Father and the Mother God and the Church 〈◊〉 one Child out because another is angrie with it Or when did Christ giue that Power to the Elder Sister 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and her 〈◊〉 the Bishop there should thrust out what Child 〈◊〉 pleased Especially when shee her selfe is 〈◊〉 accused to haue giuen the offence that is taken in the House Or will not both Father and Mother be sharper to her for this vniust and vnnaturall vsage of her younger Sisters but their 〈◊〉 Children Nay is it not the next way to make them 〈◊〉 her out of doores that is so 〈◊〉 to the rest It is well for all Christian men and Churches that the Father and Mother of them are 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 as some would haue them And Saluation need not be feared of any 〈◊〉 Child 〈◊〉 outing from the Church because this Elder 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are discouered in the House and 〈◊〉 growne 〈◊〉 for it to them that complayned But as Children crie when they are awaked so doe you and 〈◊〉 with all that come 〈◊〉 you And 〈◊〉 confesses That yee were in 〈◊〉 dead sleepe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 much 〈◊〉 when the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you Now if you can prooue that Rome is 〈◊〉 the Catholike Church it selfe as you commonly call it speake out and 〈◊〉 it In the meane time you may 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 too if you will and it seemes you doe for here you forget 〈◊〉 what the B. said to you 〈◊〉 The doubting Person said the B. to me may be better saued in it than you B. 〈◊〉 that is easier than you than 〈◊〉 man that knowes so much of Truth and opposes against it as you and your 〈◊〉 doe How farre you know Truth other men may iudge by your proofes and causes of Knowledge but how 〈◊〉 you oppose it when it is knowne that is within and no man can know but God and your selues Howsoeuer where the Foundation is but held there for ordinarie men it is not the 〈◊〉 of vnderstanding but the simplicitie of beleeuing that makes them safe For Saint Augustiue speakes there of men in the Church and no man can be simply said to be out of the visible Church that is baptized and holds the Foundation And as it is the simplicitie of beleeuing that makes them safe yea safest so is it sometimes a quicknesse of vnderstanding that louing it selfe and some by respects too well makes men take vp an vnsafe way about the Faith So that there is no question but manie were saued in corrupted times of the Church when their Leaders vnlesse they repented before death were lost And Saint Augustines Rule will be true That in all Corruptions of the Church there will euer be a difference betweene an Heretike and a plaine well-meaning man that is mis-led and beleeues an Heretike I pray you Marke this and so by Gods grace will I. For our Reckoning will bee
heauier if wee mis-lead on eytherside than theirs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vs. But I see I must looke to my selfe for you are secure For F. Dr White said I hath secured me that none of our Errors be damnable so long as wee hold them not against our Conscience And I hold none against my Conscience B. It seemes then you haue two Securities Dr Whites Assertion and your Conscience What Assurance Dr White 〈◊〉 you I cannot tell of my selfe nor as things stand may I rest vpon your Relation It may be you vse him no better than you doe the Bishop And sure it is so For I haue since spoken with Dr White and hee auowes this and no other Answere Hee was asked in the conferense betweene you Whether Popish Errors were Fundamentall To 〈◊〉 hee gaue 〈◊〉 by distinction of the persons which held and professed the Errors namely That the Errors were Fundamentall reductiue by a Reducement if they which embraced them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 adhere to them hauing sufficient 〈◊〉 to be better enformed nay further that they were materially and in the verie kind and nature of them Leauen Drosse Hay and Stubble Yet hee thought withall that such as were mis-led by Education or long Custome or over-valuing the 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 Church and did in 〈◊〉 of heart embrace them might by their generall 〈◊〉 and Faith in the Merit of Christ attended with Charitie 〈◊〉 other Vertues find mercie at Gods hands But that hee should say Signanter and expressely That none eyther of yours or your fellowes 〈◊〉 were damnable so long as you hold them not against Conscience that hee vtterly disauowes You deliuered nothing to 〈◊〉 such a Confession from him And for your selfe hee could obserue but small loue of Truth few signes of Grace in you as hee tells mee Yet hee will not presume to iudge you or your Saluation it is the Word of Christ that must iudge you as the latter Day For your Conscience you are the happier in your Error that you hold nothing against it especially if you speake not against it while you say so But this no man can know but your Conscience For no man knowes the thoughts of a man but the spirit of a man that is within him to which I leaue you But yet you leaue not For you tell me F. The doubting partie asked Whether shee might be saued in the Protestants Faith Vpon 〈◊〉 Soule said the B. you may Vpon my Soule said I there is but one sauing Faith and that is the Romane B. So it seemes the B. was confident for the Faith professed in the Church of England else hee would not haue taken the Saluation of another vpon his Soule And sure hee had reason of his Confidence For to beleeue the Scripture and the Creeds to beleeue these in the sense of the antient Primitiue Church to receiue the foure great Generall Councels so much magnified by Antiquitie to beleeue all Points of Doctrine generally receiued as Fundamentall in the Church of Christ is a Faith in which to liue and die cannot but giue Saluation And therefore the B. went vpon a sure ground in the aduenture of his Soule vpon that Faith Besides in all the Points of Doctrine that are controuerted betweene vs. I would faine see anie one Point maintained by the Church of England that can bee prooued to depart from the Foundation You haue manie dangerous Errors about it in that which you call the Romane Faith But there I leaue you to looke to your owne Soule and theirs whom you seduce Yet this is true too That there is but one sauing Faith But then euerie thing which you call De Fide Of the Faith because some Councell or other hath defined it is not such a breach from that one sauing Faith as that hee which expressely beleeues it not nay as that hee which beleeues the contrarie is excluded from Saluation And Bellarmine is forced to graunt this There are manie things de Fide which are not absolutely necessarie to Saluation Therefore there is a Latitude in Faith especially in reference to Saluation To set a Bound to this and strictly to define it Iust thus farre you must beleeue in euerie particular or incurre Damnation is no worke for my Penne. These two things I am sure of One That your peremptorie establishing of so manie things that are remote Deductions from the Foundation hath with other Errors lost the Peace and Vnitie of the Church for which you will one day answere And the other That you are gone further from the Foundation of this one sauing Faith than can euer bee prooued wee haue done But to conclude you tell vs F. Vpon this and the precedent Conferences the Ladie rested in iudgement fully satisfied as shee told a confident friend of the Truth of the Romane Churches Faith Yet vpon frailetie and feare to offend the King shee yeelded to goe to Church For which shee was after verie sorrie as some of her friends can testifie B. This is all personall And how that Honourable Ladie is settled in Conscience how in Iudgement I know not This I thinke is made cleare enough That that which you said in this and the precedent Conferences could settle neyther vnlesse in some that were settled or setting before As little doe I know what shee told anie Friend of the Romane Cause No more whether it were frailetie or feare that made her yeeld to goe to Church nor how sorrie shee was for it nor who can testifie that sorrow This I am sure of If shee repent and God forgiue her other sinnes shee will farre more easily bee able to answere for her comming to Church than shee will for the leauing of the Church of England and following the Superstitions and Errors which the Romane Church hath added in point of Faith and worship of God I pray God giue her Mercie and all of you a Light of his Truth and a Loue to it first that you may no longer be made Instruments of the Popes boundlesse Ambition and this most vnchristian braine-sicke Deuice That in all Controuersies of the Faith hee is infallible and that by way of Inspiration and Prophesie in the Conclusion which hee giues To due consideration of this and Gods Mercie in Christ I leaue you FINIS Optat. lib. 3. c. Parmen Aug. c. Cresc lib. 3. ca. 51. Isid. d. sum bon lib. 3. ca. 53. Aug. Epist. 48. ad Vincent Idem Ep. 52. ad Macedon Idem Ep. 61. ad Dulcit Euseb. Hist. Eccles li. 10. ca. 9. Et d. vit Const. li. i. ca. 37. Ministrorum Dei coegit Concilium lib. 2. c. 43. lib. 3. ca. 6 10 12 16 17 18 23. Interdum 〈◊〉 quae ad Ecclesiarum Dei commodū spectabant prescribendo ib. ca. 63. lib. 4. c. 14. c. 18. Festos dies instituit ca. 22 23 27. Episcoporū Decreta cōfirmauit Theoderit Hist. Eccles li. 1. cap. 7. August d. Ciu. Dei li. 5. c. 25. Tertul. ad