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A88232 The picture of the Councel of State, held forth to the free people of England by Lievt. Col. John Lilburn, Mr Thomas Prince, and Mr Richard Overton, now prisoners in the Tower of London. Or, a full narrative of the late extra-judicial and military proceedings against them. Together with the substance of their several examinations, answers and deportments before them at Darby house, upon the 28. of March last. Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657.; Prince, Thomas.; Overton, Richard, fl. 1646. 1649 (1649) Wing L2154; Thomason E550_14; ESTC R204431 45,344 56

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Time as after the language of their new fangled Saint-ships I may speak it they have brought their seasons to perfection even to the Season of Seasons now to rest themselves in the large and full enjoyment of the creature for a time two times and half a time resolving now to ware out the true asserters of the peoples freedom and to change the time and laws to their exorbitant ambition and will while all their promises declarations and engagements to the people must be null'd and made Cyphers and cast aside as wast paper as unworthy the fulfilment or once the remembrance of those Gentlemen those magnificent stems of our new upstart Nobillity for now it is not with them as in the dayes of their engagement at New-market and Tripl●e heath but as it was in the days of old with corrupt persons so is it in ours Tempora mutantur But to proceed to the story the Lievtenant Collonel did not only shew his weakness or rather his iniquity in his dealing with me but he converts the aforesaid Souldier of Leivtenant Generalls Regiment before divers of the Officers at White-hall and there he renders the reason wherefore he made him a prisoner because said he he takes Overtons part for he came and asked him how he did and bid him be of good comfort and he lay last night with a woman To which he answered It is true but the woman was my wife then they proceeded to ask when they were married and how they should know shee was his wife and he told them where and when but that was not enough they told him he must get a Certificate from his Captain that he was married to her and then he should have his liberty Friends and Country-men where are you now what shall you do that have no Captains to give you Certificates sure you must have the banes of Matrimony re-asked at the Conventicle of Gallants at White-hall or at least you must thence have a Congregationall Licence without offence be it spoken to true Churches to lye with your wives else how shall your wives be chast or the children Legitimate they have now taken Cognizance over your wives and beds whether will they next Judgement is now come into the hand of the armed-fury Saints My Masters have a care what you do or how you look upon your wives for the new-Saints Millitant are paramount all Laws King Parliament husbands wives beds c. But to let that passe Towards the evening we were sent for to go before the Counsell of State at Darby-house and after Lievtenant Collonel John Lilburne and Mr. Wallwine had been before them then I was called in and Mr. Bradshaw spake to me to this effect Master Overton the Parliament hath seen a Book Intituled The Second Part of Englands New-Chains Discovered and hath past several Votes thereupon and hath given Order to the Councel to make inquiry after the Authors and Publishers thereof and proceed upon them as they see Cause and to make a return thereof unto the House And thereupon he Commanded Mr. Frost their Secretary to read over the said Votes unto me which were to this purpose as hath since been publickly proclaimed Die Martis 27 Martis 1649. THe House being informed of a Scandalous and Seditius Book Printed entituled The Second Part of Englands New-Chains Discovered The said Book was this day read REsolved upon the Question by the Commons assembled in Parliament That this printed Paper entituled The Second Part of Englands New-Chains Discovered c. doth cont●in most false scandalous and reproachful matter and is highly Seditious and Destructive to the present Government as it is now Declared and setled by Parliament tends to Division and Mutiny in the Army and the raising of a New War in the Common-wealth and to hinder the present Relief of Ireland and to the continuing of Free-Quarter And this House doth further Declare That the Authors Contrivers and Framers of the said Papers are guilty of High Treason and shall be proceeded against as Traytors And that all Persons whatsover that shall joyn with or adhere unto and hereafter voluntarily Ayd or Assist the Authors Framers and Contrivers of the aforesaid Paper in the prosecution thereof shall be esteemed as Traytors to the Common-wealth and be proceeded against accordingly Then Mr. Bradshaw spake to me much after this effect Master Overton this Councel having received Information That you had a hand in the Contriving and Publishing of this Book sent for you by their Warrant to come before them Besides they are informed of other Circumstances at your Apprehension against you That there were divers of the Books found about you Now Mr. Overton if you will make any Answer thereunto you have your Liberty To which I answered in these words or to the like effect Sir what Title to give you or distinguish you by I know not Indeed I confesse I have heard by common report that you go under the name of a Councel of State but for my part what you are I cannot well tell but this I know that had you as you pretend a just authority from the Parliament yet were not your Authority valuable or binding till solemnly proclaimed to the people so that for my part in regard you were pleased thus violently to bring me before you I shall humbly crave at your hands the production of your Authority that I may know what it is for my better information how to demean my self Presid Mr. Overton We are satisfied in our Authority Ric. Overt Sir if I may not know it however I humbly desire that I may be delivered from under the force of the Military power for having a naturall and legall title to the Rights of an Englishman I shall desire that I may have the benefit of the Law of England which Law taketh no cognizance of the Sword And in case you or any man pretend matter of crime against me in order to a tryall I desire I may be resigned up to the Civil Magistrate and recceive a free and legall tryall in some ordinary Court of Justice according to the known Law of the Land that if I be found a transgressor of any established declared Law of England on Gods name let me suffer the penalty of that Law Further Sir In case I must still be detained a prisoner it is my earnest desire that I may be disposed to some prison under the jurisdiction and custody of the Civill Authority For as for my own part I cannot in conscience to the common right of the people submit my self in any wise to the tryall or custody of the Sword for I am no Souldier neither hath the Army any Authoritie over me I owe them neither dutie nor obedience they are no Sheriffs Justices Bailiff Constables or other Civil Magistrates So that I cannot neither will I submit unto their power but must take the boldnesse to protest against it Presid Mr. Overton If this be your Answer you may withdraw
be published and declared by sound of Trumpet Proclamation or the like by a publike Officer or Magistrate in the publike and open places of the Nation But truly Sir I never saw any Law in Print or writing that declares your power so proclaim'd or published and therefore Sir I know not what more to make of you then a company of private men being neither able to own you as a Court of Justice because the Law speaks nothing of you nor as a Councel of State till I see and read or hear your Commission which I desire if you please to be acquainted with But Sir give me leave further to aver unto you and upon this Principle or Averment I will venture my life and being and all I have in the world That if the House had by a Proclaimed and Declared Law Vote or Order made this Councel as you call your selves a Court of Justice yet that proclaimed or declared Law Vote or Order had bin unjust and null and void in it self And my reason is because the House it self was never neither now nor in any age before betrusted with a Law executing power but only with a Law making power And truly Sir I should have lookt upon the people of this Nation as very fooles if ever they had betrusted the Parliament with a law executing power and my reason is because if they had so done they had then chosen and impowred a Parliament to have destroyed them but not to have preserved them which is against the very nature and end of the very being of Parliaments they being by your own declared doctrin chosen to provide for the peoples weale but not for their wo And Sir the reason of that reason is because its possible if a Parliament should execute the Law they might doe palpable injustice and male administer it and so the people would be robd of their intended extraordinary benefit of appeales for in such cases they must appeale to the Parliament either against it self or part of it self and can it ever be imagined they will ever condemne themselves or punish themselves nay will they not rather judge themselves bound in honour and safety to themselves to vote that man a Traytor and destroy him that shall so much as question their actions although formerly they have dealt never so unjustly with him For this Sir I am sure is very commonly practised now a dayes and therefore the honesty of former Parliaments in the discharge of their trust and duty in this particular was such that they have declared the power is not in them to judge or punish me or the meanest free-man in England being no Member of their House although I should beat or wound one of their Members nigh unto their dore going to the House to discharge his duty but I am to be sent in all such cases to the Judge of the upper * See 5. H. 4. 6. 11. H. 6. Ch. 11. see also my plea against the Lords jurisdiction before the Judges of the Kings Bench called the Laws Funeral Pag. 8 9. and my grand Plea against the Lords jurisdiction made before M. Maynard of the house of Commons and the foure imprisoned Aldermen of Londons plea against the Lords jurisdiction published by M. Lionel Hurbin 1648. Bench unto whom by Law they have given declared rules and direction in that particular how to behave himself which are as evident for me to know as himself now Sir if reason and justice doe not judge it convenient that the Parliament shal not be Iudges in such particular cases that is of so neere concernment to themselves but yet hath others that are not of their House that are as well concerned as themselves much lesse will reason or justice admit them to be judges in particular cases that are farther remote from their particular selves and doth meerly concern the common wealth and sure I am Sir this is the declared Statute Law of England and doth stand in ful force at this houre there being I am sure of it no law to repeale it no not since the House of Commons set up their new Common-wealth Now Sir from all this I argue thus that which is not inherent in the whole cannot by the whole be derived or assigned to a part But it is not inherent neither in the power nor authority of the whole House of Commons primarily and originally to execute the Law and therefore they cannot derive it to a part of them selves But yet Sir with your favour for all this I would not be mistaken as though I maintained the Parliament had no power to make a Court of justice for I do grant they may errect a Court of justice to administer the Law provided that the Iudges consist of persons that are not Members of their House and provided that the power they give them be universal that is to say to administer the law to all the people of England indefinitely and not to two or three particular persons solely the last of which for them to do is unjust and altogether out of their power And therefore Sir to conclude this point It being not in the power of the whole Parliament to execute the Law they can give no power to you their Members to meddle with me in the case before you For an ordinary Court of Justice the proper Administrator of the Law is the onely and sole Judge in this particular and not you Gentlemen no nor your whole House it self For with your favour M. Bradshaw the fact that you suppose I have committed for till it be judicially proved and that must be before a legal Judge that hath cognisance of the fact or confessed by my self before the Judge it is but a bare supposition is either a crime or no crime A crime it cannot be unless it be a Transgression of a Law in being before it was committed acted or done For where there is no Law * Rom. 4.15 See the 4. part of the L. Cooks Instituts Ch. 1. high Court of Parl. fol. 14. 35. 37. See also my printed Epistle to the Speaker of the 4. of April 1648. called The Prisoners plea for a Habeas Corpus p. 5 6. and Englands Birth-right p. 1 2 3 4. and the second edition of my Epistle to Judge Reeves p. 11 12 13 14 15. and M. John Wildmans Truths Tryumph p. 11 12 13 14. and Sir John Maynards Case truly stated called The Laws Subversion p. 9.13 14 15 16. 38. there is no Transgression And if it be a Transgression of a Law that Law provides a punishment for it and by the Rules and method of that Law am I to be tryed and by no other whatsoever made ex post facto And therefore Sir If this be true as undoubtedly it is then I am sure you Gentlemen have no power in Law to convene me before you for the pretended crime laid unto my charge much less to fetch me by force out of my habitation by the
before that Law be in being a it is impossible to offend that which is not Where there is no Law there is no Transgression Now those Votes on which you proceed against me are but of yesterdaies being so that had I an hand in that Book whereof you accuse me provided it were before those Votes you cannot render me guiltie by those Votes If I had done any thing in it since the Votes provided you had solemnly proclaimed the same then you might have had some colour to have proceeded against me but I have but newly heard the Votes and since that you know I could do nothing Presid Mr. Overton I would correct your judgment in one thing We are not upon any Triall of you we are onely upon the discharge of our dutie and that trust committed unto us by the Parliament to make enquiry after the authors contrivers and framers of the Books and having information against your self and your Comrades we sent for you and are to return your Answer to the House howsoever you dispute their Authority R. Overt Dispute their Authoritie Sir I That 's but your supposition and supposition is no proof And Sir as you say you are to discharge your dutie so must I discharge mine And as for matter of triall I am sure you taxe me in a criminall way and proceed to question me thereupon But Sir I conceive it my dutie to answer to none of your Questions in that nature and therefore shall utterly refuse Now Gentlemen I desire you to take notice that I do not oppose you as you are members of the Common-wealth for it is well known and I think to some here that I have ever been an opposer of oppression and tyrannie even from the daies of the Bishops to this present time and the † viz. Arraignment of Persecution Ordinance of Tythes Dismounted The Game at Scotch and English c. Books that I have writ and published do in some measure bear witness thereof and it is well known that my practice hath ever been answerable thereunto I suppose no man can accuse me but that I have opposed Tyrannie where-ever I found it It is all one to me under what name or title soever oppression be exercised whether under the name of King Parliament Councel of State under the name of this or that or any thing else For tyrannie and oppression is tyrannie and oppression to me where-ever I finde it and where-ever I finde it I shall oppose it without respect of persons I know I am mortall and finite and by the course of nature my daies must have a period how soon I know not and the most you can do it is but to proceed to life and for my part I had rather die in the just vindication of the cause of the poor oppressed people of this Common-wealth then to die in my bed and the sooner it is the welcomer I care not if it were at this instant for I value not what you can doe unto me But Gentlemen I humbly desire yet a word or two I confesse I did not expect so much civilitie at your hands as I have found and for the same I return you hearty thanks Now whereas you commonly say That we will have no Bottom center no where and do taxe us by the Votes you read unto me of destruction to the present Government division and mutinie in the Armie c. But here I do professe unto you as in the presence of the all-seeing God before whom one day I must give an account of all my actions That in case you will but conclude upon an equall and just Government by way of an Agreement of the People as was honourably begun by the Generall Officers of the Army and but free that Article in it which concerns the liberty of Gods Worship from the vexatious entanglements and contradictions that are in it that so consciencious people might freely without any fear of an insulting Clergie live quietly and peaceably in the enjoyment of their consciences As also to add unto it a Barr against Regalitie and the House of Lords As also to make provision in it against the most weighty oppressions of the Land that thereby they may be utterly removed and for the future prevented and the people setled in freedom and safetie And then for my part neither hand foot pen tongue mouth or breath of mine shall move against you but I shall with my utmost power with hand heart life and bloud assist you in the prosecution thereof and therein center Try me and if I fail of my word then let me suffer Presid Mr. Overton If you have no more to say you may withdraw R. Overt Sir I humbly crave the further addition of a word or two Gentlemen I desire as I did before that I may according to the common right of the people of England be forthwith freed from under the power of the Sword and be delivered into the hands of the Civil Magistrate in case I shall be still detained a prisoner for I am so much against the intrusion of the Military power into the feat of the Magistrate that I had rather you would fetter me legs and hands and tie me neck and heels together and throw me into a Dungeon and not allow me so much as the benefit of bread and water till I be starved to death then I would accept of the best Down-bed in England with sutable accommodation under the custody of the Sword President Mr. Overton I would correct your Judgment a litle you are not under the Military power but under the Civil authority for by the Authority of Parliament this Counsel by their Warrant hath sent for you R. Overton Sir it is confest that pro forma tantum for matter of Forme inke or paper I am under the Civil Authoritie but essentiallie and reallie I am under the Martial power for that Warrant by which I was taken was executed upon me by the Military power by a Partie of Horse and divers Companies of Foot in Arms and in that Hostile manner like a prisoner of War I was led Captive to White-hal and there ever since till commanded hither I was kept amongst the Souldiers and I am still under the same force Besides Sir these men are meer Souldiers no Officers of the Magistracie of England they brought no Warrant to me from anie Justice of Peace neither did carrie me before anie Justice of Peace but seised on me and kept me by their own force Therefore it is evident and cleer to me That I am not under the Civil but the Martial power President Master Overton If this be your Answer you may with-draw R. Overton Sir I have said And so I was conducted to the Room where they had disposed Lievtenant Col. Lilburne and Mr. Walwine And the next news we heard from them was of our Commitment to the Tower and Master Prince and I were joyned as yoak-fellows in one Warrant a Copie whereof is
which stood nigh unto my door and perceiving them in the street and lane I laught heartily to see so many armed men come for me I told the Lieutenant Col. one man with a Legal Warrant had been sufficient The Lieutenant said they had special Order upon their peril to come I told him to come in that manner was suitable to his unjust Warrant And I also told him my name is Prince and that it was usual for Princes to have great attendance The Lieutenant Collonel gave a Captain charge of me to bring me to Paul's yard which was performed with a strong Guard following close unto us after a very little time came my Friend Lieut. Col. John Lilburn and Mr. William Walwyn after salutations betwixt us we went from thence with Adjutant General Stubbard to White-Hall and there with a very strong Guard of Soldiers was brought unto us our Friend Mr Richard Overton and there we were kept prisoners until about five a Clock in the afternoon at that time with a Guard of Souldiers we were brought to Darby-house within two hours after we had been there I was called for I presently went as was desired into a room where I see about ten or twelve men sitting about a large Table after I had given them a full view I put off my Hat I was spoke unto to go nigh Mr Bradshaw which I did Mr Bradshaw said unto me Here is the Votes of Parliament against that printed paper entituled The second part of Englands new Chains discovered which Mr Bradshaw gave unto Mr Frost to read it to me which he did Mr Bradshaw likewise told me Here is an Order of Parliament giving power to this Councel of State to finde out and examine the Authors Framers and Contrivers of the aforesaid paper and to deal with them as they shall see cause This Councel is informed that you are one of the Authors Framers or Contrivers of the aforesaid Paper and you are required to give your Answer After a little silence I said these words or to this effect Sir I am an Englishman and therefore lay claim to all the Rights and Liberties which belongeth unto an English man and God gave me such knowledg that in the very first beginning of the late Wars I gave my cheerful assistance against those that would rule over the people by their own wills and upon that account I adventured my life and lost much blood in defence of the Common-wealth and all along to this day have assisted in person and purse to my utmost abilities and I am the same man still to withstand Tyranny in any whomsoever Sir I hate no man in the world only the evil in any man I hate Sir all those good things which my conscience and my actions will witness I have done in behalf of the Common-wealth I desire they may be all layd aside and not come in the ballance as to hinder any punishment that can be afflicted upon me for breaking any known Law Sir that which makes a man an offender is for breach of a Law and that Law ought to be made before the offence is committed Sir Although I have fought and assisted against the wills and tyranny of men yet I have not fought to overthrow the known Laws of the Land for if there be no Law to protect my Estate Liberty and Life but to be left to the will of men to the power of the Sword to be abused at pleasure as I have been this day contrary to Law being fetcht from my wife and family Sir by the same rule you may send for my wife and children and for all my estate and the next time if you please to destroy all my neighbors nay all in the City and so from County to County until you destroy as many as you please Sir I have heard talk of Levellers but I am sure this is levelling indeed and I do here before you abhor such doings and I do protest against them Sir There is a known Law in this Land if I have wronged any man let him take his course in Law against me I fear not what any man in England can do to me by Law and Sir the Law I lay claim unto as my right to protect me from violence Sir the Parliament hath lately declared they would maintain the Law but I am sure their and your dealing by me declares to the contrary Mr Bradshaw said Is this your Answer I said Yes then I was commanded to withdraw After some space I was called in again Mr Bradshaw asked me if I did own or deny that Paper entituled The second part of Englands new Chains discovered and to this I was required by that Councel to give my Answer To which I replyed Sir At the beginning of the Parliament it was declared how destructive it was for any man to be examined upon Interrogatories and Sir if they had not Declared it it is my right not to be examined against my self Sir God hath given me this understanding not to wrong my Neighbour nor my Self if my right hand should take away and betray the liberty of my left I would cut it off Sir the people who is the Originall of all Just Power hath not given any such power to the Parliament as to examine men against themselves in criminall Causes the Parliament cannot give that to others they have not Sir as I said before if any man in England hath any thing against me let them take their course by Law Sir the Law doth prescribe Rules for the Offender to be brought before a Justice of Peace and after the Justice hath examined witnesses upon Oath before the party apprehended if the offence although proved upon oath be Bayleable the Justice is to take Bayle if the Justice refuse the party may arrest the Justice and have his cost by Law against him if not Bayleable the party is to be sent to prison and there to be kept untill the next Session or Assises and not during pleasure Sir I never heard of any Law that gives you or any of these Gentlemen that sit here any just Authoritie to call me here in this manner before you Master Bradshaw said Is this your Answer I answered yes then I was bid withdraw About an hour after news was brought unto us That we were to be sent Prisoners to the Tower upon suspition of High Treason we disputed with the Officer and shewed he had no Legall Warrant to carry us thither as prisoners notwithstanding by the power of the sword we were brought Prisoners to the Tower of London where we are Rejoycing that we are counted worthy to suffer in bearing Testimony for the Freedome of the People against their Usurpation and Tyrannie Tho Prince From the Tower of London this 1. day of April 1649. FINIS
vvill go in Peace and quietness vvithout any further dispute of your authority For vvhen I come there I know those Goalers have their bound and limits set them by the Law and I know how to carry my self towards them and what to expect from them and if they do abuse me I know how in law to help my self And so Sir I have said what at present I have to say Whereupon M. Bradshaw commanded the Sergeant to put me out at an other dore that so I should no more go amongst the people and immediatly M. Walwin was put out to me and asking him what they said to him I found it to be the same in effect they said to me demanding the same fore-going question of him that they did of me to which question after some kind of pause he answered to this effect That he could not but very much wonder to be asked such a question however that it was very much against his Judgement and Conscience to answer to questions of that nature which concerned himself that if he should answer to it he should not onely betray his own Liberty but the Liberties of all Englishmen which he could not do with a good Conscience And he could not but exceedingly grieve at the dealing he had found that day That being one who had alwaies bin so faithful to the Parliament and so well known to most of the Gentlemen there present that nevertheless he should be sent for with a party of Horse and Foot to the affrighting of his Family and ruine of his credit And that he could not be satisfied but that if was very hard measure to be used thus upon suspition onely And that if they did hold him under restraint from following his business and occasions it might be his undoing which he conceived they ought seriously to consider of Then M. Bradshaw said he was to answer the question and that they did not ask it as in way of Tryal so as to proceed in Judgement thereupon but to report it to the House To which M. Walwin said That he had answered it so as he could with a good Conscience and could make no other Answer and so with-drew And after he came out to me M. Overton was next called in againe and then M. Prince so after we were all come out and all foure in a roome close by them all alone I laid my eare to their dore and heard Lieutenant General Cromwel I am sure of it very loud thumping his fist upon the Councel Table til it rang againe and heard him speak in these very words or to this effect I tel you Sir you have no other way to deale with these men but to break them in pieces and thumping upon the Councel Table againe he said Sir let me tel you that which is true if you do not breake them they will break you yea and bring all the guilt of the blood and treasure shed and spe●t in this Kingdom upon your heads and shoulders and frustrate and make voide all that worke that with so many yeares industry toile and paines you have done and so render you to all rationall men in the world as the most contemptible generation of silly low spirited men in the earth to be broken and routed by such a despicable contemptible generation of men as they are and therfore Sir I tel you againe you are necessitated to break them but being a little disturbed by the supposition of one of their Messengers coming into the roome I could not so well heare the answer to him which I think was Col. Ludlows voyce who pressed to baile us for I could very well heare him say what would you have more than security for them Vpon which discourse of Cromwels the blood run up and down my veines and I heartily wisht my self in againe amongst them being scarse able to contain my self that so I might have gone five or six stories higher than I did before yea as high as I intended when I came to their dore and to have particularly paid Cromwel and Hasleridge to the purpose for their late venome not only against me in the House but my whole family Hasleridge saying as I am informed in the open House there was never an one of the Lilburns family fit or worthy to be a Constable in England though I am confident there is not the worst of us alive that have served the Parliament but he is a hundred times more just honest and unspoted than he himself as in due time I shal make it appeare by Gods assistance I hope to his shame But the faire carriage of the Gentlemen of the supposed Councel to me at the first tooke off the height of the edge of my spirit and intended resolution which it may be they shal have the next time to this effect You your selves have already voted the People under God the Fountain and Original of all just power And if so then none can make them Laws but those that are chosen impowred and be trusted by them for that end and if that be true as undoubtedly it is I desire to know how the present Gentlemen at Westminster can make it appeare they are the peoples Representatives being rather chosen by the wil of him whose head as a Tyrant and Traytor they have by their wills chopt off I mean the King then by the people whose Will made the Borough Townes to chuse Parliament men and there by rob'd above nineteen people of this Nation of their undubitable and inherent right to give to a single man in twenty for number in reference to the whole Nation a Monopoly to chuse Parliament men disfranchising therereby the other nineteen and if so in any measure than this upon their own declared principles they are no Representative of the people no nor was not at the first Again the King summoned them by his Writ the issue of his will and pleasure and by vertue of that they sit to this houre Again the King by his Will and pleasure combines with them by an Act to make them a perpetual Parliament one of the worst and tyranicallest actions that ever he did in his life to sit as long as they pleased which he nor they had no power to do in the least the very constitution of Parliaments in England being to be once every yeare or oftner if need require Quere Whether this act of perpetuating this Parliament by the Parliament men themselves beyond their Commission was not an act in them of the highest Treason in the world against the People and their liberties by setting up themselves an arbitrary power over them for ever Yea and thereby razing the foundation and constitution of Parliament it self And if so then this is nul if at the first it had bin any thing Again if it should be granted this Parliament at the beginning had a legal constitution from the people the original and fountaine of all just power yet the Faction of a trayterous