Bishoppes grounding themselues vppon one of Cartwrightes principles That any increase of authoritie being added to a Church-Minister dooth cleane chaunge his Ministerie and maketh it a new Ministerie Whervpon they conclude that Archbishoppes and Bishoppes hauing receyued an increase of theyr authorities by diuerse Councelles c. are become to bee of a newe Ministerie neuer ordayned by Christ nor his Apostles and so consequently vnlawfull and to bee abolished The follie of this collection hath beene shewed manie wayes both by reasons and by examples but yet they haue not beene satisfied But nowe you shall see they are put to silence for euer For Beza is peremptorie to the contrarie of that which they haue so inforced In his booke agaynst Doctor Sarauia speaking of a place of Ieromes how Bishoppes were ordayned for orders sake c. hee sayth in effecte That when they had such authoritie giuen then for orders sake Mutatio non suit in re ipsa id'est in ipso ordine sed tantùm in ordinis modo There was no chaunge made in the thinge it selfe that is in the order but in the manner or measure of the order And afterwards more plainely where hee setteth downe another manner of principle than Cartwrightes vz. That wee must distinguish betweene the nature of a thing and that which adhereth vnto it accidentally because Eo in aliud cōmutato vel sublato res ipsa permanet The accident beeing chaunged or taken away the thing it selfe remaineth Whereupon if I vnderstande him he groweth to this issue That the increase of any such authority as is before mentioned or the alteration of the manner or order is not of the essence of the Ministery but a thing that is accidentall and may be chaunged according to the circumstaunces of times and places And hee bringeth this example Accidentale fuit c. It was accidentall c. Vt vnusquispiam iudicio caeierorum compresbyterorum delectus presbyterio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esset permaneret That one beeing chosen by the iudgement of the rest of his fellow-priests or Elders should be the President or the Prelate ouer the presbytery and so continue You will aske mee perhaps how this geare comes about that Beza is so opposite to Cartwright I will tell you my conceit I suppose that matters of their pretended Discipline are growen to greater ripenes in Geneua then they are thankes be to God in England and that therfore Beza is more franke to let vs see what they generallie shoote at then Cartwright dare bee as yet For howsoeuer Cartwright presumed to tell vs as it seemeth vntrulie that their moderator forsooth should be chosen but for one action only and that Caluin being chosen to that office for two yeares so as I take it from two yeares to two yeares misliked that small preheminence should so long remayne with one which in time might breede inconuenience and that Beza also misliked it for that cause Yet now you see that Beza is far from that base conceit thinketh that that office maie bee permanent and further saith that to ordaine it so now certè reprehendi nec potest nec debet it neyther can nor ought surely to bee reprehended And his reason is this for that it hath beene an order that one should bee so chosen to haue such a permanent preheminece in the Church euer since Saint Markes time Nay he is come to this that he is content to yeald in effect that the institution of an Archbishop is agreable to the word of God vz. ex illa generali et verissima Apostolica regula c. according to that generall true Apostolicall rule which appoynteth that all thinges should bee done orderly in the house of God Est igitur or do c. There is therefore saith hee an order in it selfe and by it selfe prescribed by God but the reason or vse of that order and the manner of it dependeth vppon the circumstances of times places and persons and is as men speake according to Lawes positiue Nowe if these thinges that Beza writteth bee true and that he himselfe peraduenture could bee well inough pleased to enioye such an office if the sayde circumstances of time and place might serue his turne to obtaine it then we perceaue that such additions of titles and preheminence so he and his fellowes may haue them do make no such alteration of the essence of the ministerie as with vs is pretended There is great barking against the church of England for that by Act of parliament some partes of the Canon Law are retained and to bee vsed by our Bishops for the better gouernment of the Church insomuch as the very name of the Canon law is become odious the commō sort of simple men of the factious crue verily supposing that the name of such a law rule or institution is popish vnlawfull and diuelish and therfore they crie out crucifie it crucifie it awaie with it wee will not be ruled by it we will none of it As though they shoúld saye we are lawlesse men for rules and orders we detest them whatsoeuer seemeth good in our own eyes that we will doe at the least if we euer yeald our obediēce to any churchlaw it shall bee surelie of our own making sie vppon all former Councels sie vppon all those decisions which the auncient fathers made sie vpon all old and auncient constitutions And thus in effect they write speake in their libels and ordinarie table-talke whereas notwithstanding if there be anie thing in the Canon-law that will serue their purposes they can be contēt to steale it thence to take to themselues thereby the commendation which is due to the true authors fathers of it Cartwright his fraternitie in their essentiall draught of discipline haue drawen more then seuen partes of eight of it out of the Canon-lawe and auncient constitutions Viretus perceiuing but too late what hindrance grew to the platforme of their new discipline by the vtter abolishing of the Canon-law at once and as it were in a furie which he supposed did wold still haue bridled princes if it had been retained and still in force sheweth his dislike of such rashnes in these wordes They thought it a goodly reformation in the Church to abolish all the Canons decrees with the good statutes which the auncient fathers and Doctors hadde ordayned to mayntaine the good discipline in the church The chiefe point indeed that grieued Viretus as there it appeareth at large was this because Princes by that meanes had drawen their necks frō vnder the yoke of discipline A matter so much misliked by them as that he is flatte of opinion that it had beene better for the Church to haue kept the old Pope still then by abrogating of the Canon law and in giuing to Princes so great authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall so to haue subiected her selfe to a new kind of papacie
haue not wanted the common affections of men Much trouble there was before their saide deuise was receaued which made them afterwardes the fonder of it We haue a saying that the Crow thinketh her owne birde the fairest and so doe men and women for the most part their owne children Nature doth therein beare sway with the best But especially she sheweth her force most in the fruicts of a mans mind For as our mindes ought to be more deare vnto vs then our bodies so are the fruites of our minds of greater account with vs then the fruites of our bodies Few men that we heare of will giue their liues for their children but many wee see will do it most readily in the maintenance of their opinions Which thinges considered I cannot but in some sorte excuse maister Caluin and maister Beza in seeking all manner of waies all shewes all shiftes all aduauntages that possibly they could either finde or deuise whereby they might iustifie in some sorte the birth and bringing vp of their misconceaued offpring The chiefest ouersight was in my opinion that other learned and wise men doe not well obserue these manner of naturall and common affections in them but were carried after them as it were with a whirlewind to like as they liked to say as they said and to doe as they did If maister Caluin and maister Beza affirmed it why it was inough I haue heard it credibly reported that in a certaine Colledge in Cambridge when it happeneth that in there disputations the authority either of Saint Augustine or of Saint Ambrose or of Saint Ierome or of any other of the ancient Fathers nay the whole consent of them all alltogether is alledged it is reiected with very great disdaâ—ne as what tell you me of Saint Augustine Saint Ambrose or of the rest I regard them not a rush were they not men Whereas at other time when it happeneth that a man of an other humor doth aunswere if it fall out that he beinge pressed with the authority either of Caluin or Beza shall chance to deny it you shall see some beginne to smile in commiseration of such the poore mans simplicity some grow to be angry in regard of such presumption and some will depart away accounting such a kinde of fellowe not worthy the hearing Were not this a pretty and pleasaunt Interlude or Comedy to behold such Parasites playing their partes so Disciplinarian-like And all these follies and dependances that the people haue doted so much after some kinde of Ministers that the inferior sort of those ministers haue taken all for currant coine that hath beene paide them by their superiors and that they the superiors haue beene also so farre ouercaried with the credite of the saide two persons all these follies I say did proceed from this fountaine that neither the people nor their rash seducers did in time put the holy Apostles rule in practise vz. try all thinges and keepe that which is good But it is better late then neuer Since men of all sorts haue entered more carefully into the triall of all the saide pretences together with the very substaunce of that their pretended holy platforme the furious rage of that floud hath beene pretily well diuerted And the very chiefe Captains themselues being vrged of necessity a litle to fall on searching haue found that which I feare they are sorry for and are become as it seemeth like men greatly amased to be at their wits end And now to this purpose I will tell you a wonder If Cartwright and his adherents were to beginne the course againe that they haue runne I am perswaded they would neuer tread so much as one steppe in it But nowe they haue engaged their credits they must shift thinges of aswell as they can and where their wards serue them not beare-of the blowes that shall fall vppon them with their heads and shoulders In the yeare 1572. as you haue heard in the former Chapter the first admonition was offered to the Parliament as containing a perfect platforme of the worthy pretended Discipline to haue beene established within this Realme Within a yeare or two after Cartwright taking in haÌ„d the defence of that platform did alter it in some points especially where it seemed to ascribe too much vnto the people And then if it bee true which is reported that one desiring vppon a time conference with him about these manner of causes he answered what neede you to talke with me you may haue my Bookes they are Est and Amen I doubt not but he would haue sworne vppon conuenient occasion that the admonitioners platforme so qualified by him was a most perfect patterne for all Churches Howbeit within a while after it proued not so For about the yeare 1583. where before the platfourme of Geneua as it was lefte at large in Cartwrigts Bookes had beene followed now there was a particular draught made for England with a newe forme of common Praier therein prescribed The yeare ensuing 1584. the seuen and twentith of her Maiesty out starteth this Booke with great glory at the Parliament time and forthwith the present gouernment of the Church with all the orders lawes and ceremonies thereof was to be cut-off at one blow and this new booke or platforme must needes be established But it preuailed not Shortly after that Parliament the saide booke and platforme was found amongest themselues to haue some thing amisse in it And the correcting of it was referred to Trauerse Which worke by him performed came out againe about the yeare 1586. when there was an other Parliament in the nine and twentieth of her maiesties raigne But it was then as I suppose seuered from the saide book of Common praier and become an entire worke of it selfe And then also at the saide Parliament there wanted not diuerse solicitors for the admittance of it Afterwardes a new conference was had againe about this seconde corrected booke For still there were some things out of square in it In the yeare 1588. at an assembly in Couentry these doubts which were growen were as it seemeth debated and so were many other Cartwright himselfe being present But which of the saide doubts in their platfourme were then resolued I find it not This appeared that some of them remained which they were not able to resolue vpon For although they then concluded that the platforme it selfe was an essentiall forme of Discipline necessary for all times subscribed vnto the practise of the greatest part of it without any further expecting the magistrats pleasure yet in theyr subscriptions they excepted some fewe points which were reserued to be discussed by certaine brethren in an other assembly Where this assembly was kept I canuot certainely affirme But it appeareth vppon deposition that the next yeare after there was one held in Sainct Iohns Colledge in Cambridge Where Cartwright being againe present and many moe besides diuerse imperfections in the saide
Booke of Discipline were corrected altered and amended and there they did not onely perfect the said Booke but also did then and there as the examinate remembred voluntarily agree amongest thēselues that so many as would should subscribe to the saide Booke of Discipline after that time Well then at the last I trust we haue found out what they are agreede vppon and what they will stand vnto You see there hath beene much plotting amongest them and it is time a man would thinke that after such stirres meetinges conferences and Synods made in that behalfe they should be resolued at the last of the things they desire But now I come to my wonder before mentioned for so I esteeme of it Cartwright and the chiefest of those that haue beene lately in prison in one of their foresaide examinations in the Starre-chamber doe plainely auouch it vppon their oathes and so I belieue them that there are some thinges in theyr saide draught of Discipline wherein as yet they were neuer resolued What Is neither Geneua Fraunce nor Scotland able to satisfie them Haue they sought vnto them for theyr opinions and doe they disdaine to make them any aunswere Or else thinke they scorne to aske councell of any men but had rather then they woulde so much discredite themselues dwell still in their doubts Surely I would be very glad to know what doubts these were wherein as yet they were neuer resolued I haue desired diuerse to haue told me of them but they would not Notwithstanding I will tell you what I gesse they were not at randon as they say but vppon some good probability I met by chaunce with a paper of no mean mans among them wherein as I take it some of them at the least are expressed and they are these following Whether there ought to be Doctors in euery Church Whether the Doctors may administer the sacraments Whether there ought to be women Deacons in euery reformed Church Whether the Presbitery be not described too generally obscurely and very imperfectly Whether suspension may be proued by the worde of God Whether suspension can be proued to be a censure of the Church Whether the Elders ought not to be perpetuall as the Pastors are Whether men must stand to the sentence of the greater part of the Consistorie Whether mariages and spousals and things concerning them doe belong to the ministers Whether there should be sureties in Baptisme Whether there ought to be no abstaining from or noting of such a one as for disobedience to the Consistories admonition is in the way of excommunication Vnto these quaerees I could adde some other if I list What if Beza himselfe beginne to doubt as concerning his Discipline or at the least beginne to finde some defectes in it What if he desire to be caput Episcoporum the head of all Bishops within his prouince what if hee would haue the presidentship of euery Synode to be a continuall office But hereof afterwardes in the chapter In the meane while I could wishe with all my heart that those who are wise would throughly consider howe this Church of England and the state of the whole Realme her Maiestie the high Court of Parliament the present forme of our Ecclesiasticall gouernement with the lawes and orders thereunto appertaining and generally all her highnesse dutifull and louing subiects haue been vsed by these so distracted so presumptuous and so notorious rash-pates in that after so many admonitions supplications petitions deprauations inuections humble motions draughts platformes demonstrations and what not which haue bred alreadie a million of great inconueniences and mischiefes Now being pressed vpon their othes they are constrained to acknowledge that as yet they are not resolued in all pointes what they woulde haue If the state had been as rashe in their grauntes as they haue been shamelesse in their demaunds peraduenture the Realme and Church of England by this time might haue been in some such like case as if sondry reportes be true there be some in the world It may be heere obiected peraduenture that supposing the testimony alleadged for the doubtes mentioned were sufficient yet they are but about matters of small importance whereas in points of substance they doe all concurre and are agreed together Whether the doubts which I shewed vnto you be of any importance or not I leaue it to your consideration Indeede if a man may say the truth without their offence there is nothing which they holde concerning this Allobrogicall deuise wherein we do withstand them that is of any good importance of substance But for any agreement or resolution in any of the partes of their platforme whether of substance almost or not of substance you shall not finde it I assure you amongst them as in the processe following it wil appeare And I am of opinion that they will disagree euery day more and more vntil by triall of their former rashnesse they shalbe contented to embrace the present forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement in England and from the bottome of their heartes thanke almightie God for it CHAP. V. With what distraction vncertaintie diuersitie of iudgementes pretence is made that the Geneua Discipline is of very great antiquitie AS I haue said in the second chapter if my life lay vppon it I could not finde that there was euer in the world anie such platforme of Discipline as is now vrged by the patrones and defenders of it before maister Caluin deuised it and with much trouble set it vp at the last in Geneua I know it is said nowe a dayes that it is of a farre greater antiquitie And if I were not otherwise by reading setled I might peraduenture be ouercarried that way with their pretences The Herroldes at armes they say can do verie much in a mans pedigree Though peraduenture his Gentilitie be not of fiftie yeares standing yet if neede require William Conquerours time is nothing they will fetch it from Adam You shall haue the first finder out Bathes in England so gentilized And euen suche a like course is taken for the Geneua Discipline She must needes be a Lady of an auncient stocke And therefore her feed Herroldes do take great paines in her behalfe Such chopping and changing such clayming and disclaiming of kinreds such coating intercoating quartering of her armes with this great personage in that countrey and with another as great in this countrey you shall rarely finde I am verely perswaded in all the auncient recordes and rules of Herrauldry To leape ouer a thousand and fiue hundred yeares at the first skippe ouer almost two thousand yeares at the next and in a manner to Noahs Arke at the third is but a small matter with them There was neuer poore gentlewomans credite more sought to be set foorth with the smoakie images of her worm-aten auncestors then hers is The Geneua platforme to be reckoned so late a deuise as that maister Caluin should be the first author of it they cannot abide it
Princes and other of the Nobilitie that follow the court to haue particular Consistories in their priuate houses consisting euerie one of a minister and some of the honestest of their Families Here are then Consistories to be erected in the church according to Cartwrightes thirde acceptation of the word church that is in priuat houses and likewise a Parish not of many but of one familie And peraduenture in time it may so come about as that this will bee currant doctrine in Englande not onely for Noblemen to haue Elderships in their priuate houses but for Gentlemen likewise For now it is already groen thus farre that many of both sortes yea some but meane gentlemē will haue their seueral ministers for comming to their parish churches though they be hard by their dores they account it a dishonorable matter their parlor-seruice and priuate speaking as they terme it pleaseth them best I might here adde howe D. Sohnius is bolde to dissent from Cartwright where speakinge of the diuerse significations of the worde church hee sayth Particularis c. The particuler church is deuided and hath her name agreeable to the diuersitye of places that is Nations Prouinces Townes Parishes Houses or Families For so there is a church of one Prouince of one Citie of one towne of one house And so he quoteth many places of scripture for this his assertion But to proceede Danaeus a man as well learned for ought is yet seene as Cartwright is doth not thinke that by the institution of Christ there must needes bee an Eldership not onely in euery Citie but in euery vplandish and countrie towne also For he sayth if I vnderstand him that in the Apostles times the ruling Elders of whom the Eldership is chiefely named was vsed to be established in vnaquaque tantū ciuitate in qua erat ampla et populosa ecclesia et magnus fideliū numerus In euery city onely where the church was populous In which citye hee further addeth quaeque ciuitatis et ecclesiae pars seu paroecia suū habebat presbyterum Euery parish had a priest or minister as the parishes in the countrie had also oppidatim that is towne by towne a priest much like to those whom we call in our times Curatores Curates Furthermore also the reforming ministers of Scotlande do account their platforme now in practice there to be as agreeable to the worde of God as M. Cartwrightes and yet as the Chronicles do report they haue but 52. Elderships in Scotland those placed in their chiefest cities and great townes Vnto euerie of which Elderships as I am informed 24. particular churches or parishes for the most part do appertaine none of them hauing any such particular Eldership of their owne but are ruled controled and censured by those in the sayde cities or townes whereunto they are adioyned and subiect In the Low countries it is true that euerie parish hath her Eldership But what a kinde of Eldership Heare a verie learned and a graue man of that countrie Ruri in pagis c. In the countrie villages in some places they haue but a Pastor one Elder and a Deacon In Gaunt euerye parish likewise had theyr Eldership consisting of moe or fewer as the quantitie of them were besides those there was a consistorye for the whole citie All which particular Elderships in the countrye cities when any matters of greater momēt fell out especially for excōmunicatiō Ea potestas nulli particulari ecclesiae concessa est that power or authoritie is graunted to no particular church sine concilio et assensu generalis consistorij in magna vrbe et in pagis et oppidulis colloquij siue classis without the councel and consent of the generall consistorye in cities great townes of the conference or classis in the country townes villages So as here we find a number of Christs kingdoms set vp but they want their scepter power without the which our men would not giue a pinne for all the rest For so they are vnperfect maymed bodies of Christ. But to come to that which is the patterne of all right church regiment euen to the Eldership of Geneua There are in that citie as I haue heard foure or fiue great parishes and in the territorie belonging vnto it almost 20. and yet for the censuring and guiding of them all they haue but one Eldership according as it seemeth to the Iewish order there being in Ierusalem but one Sanedrim yet many Synagogues Of the which Geneuian reformation it may iustly be affirmed if Cartwright his fellowes with vs say truly first that the church of Geneua hath neglected the commandement of God the institution of Christ the commaundement and practise of the Apostles in that there is not placed an Eldershippe there in euery parish secondly that the sayd church being neither the catholicke church nor one particular parish nor the faithfull company of one familie cannot rightly haue so much as the name of the church nor be truely termed the well squared bodye of Christ with all the true dimensions and limites of it And certaynely there is here no starting hole as farre as I can discerne for the excuse of that Reformation and platforme except it maye bee iustified that all these foure or fiue and twentie parishes or there aboutes are so trussed together that they doe and maie all at once meet in one Congregation are taught with one mouth which to affirme besides that their practise is otherwise will bee thought I trust great boldnes vnlesse they can find a pastor with Stentors voyce who by report could make as great a noise as fifty men I cannot chuse but put you heere in minde of a poynte in Maister Cartwright that seemeth verie strange vnto mee Hee sayth that there were moe that did externally professe Christ in the Apostles times then there are nowe insomuch as wee are not nowe the tithe of them that is the tenth parte Nowe set these thinges together The Church in the Scriptures where it signifieth not the Catholique Church nor one priuate familye doth signifye one particular congregation and no moe are rightlye to bee of one congregation then maye at once bee taught by one mouth And thereuppon will it not followe that if the Apostles were as wise as Mayster Cartwright to bounde their Congregations whereas there is mention in the Scriptures of the Church of Rome of the Church of Corinth of the Church of Antioche of the Church of Ephesus of the Church of Ierusalem we must thinke there were no moe christians there in any one of those Cities then might at one time heare one preacher And by that account there are moe christians within the citie of London the suburbs thé were in al those cities twise as many more Which if M. Cartwright will deny to be true he must needs cōses for the credit of Scotland or of
alledgeth to shewe the manner of Stephens teaching in the Synagogue is the Example of Christ where hee tooke a place of Esayas and expounded the same in the Synagogue at Nazareth If a man may say that Christ did then preach the same may also bee affirmed of Stephen when as Beza saith hee taught in the Synagogues of the Iewes Whilest you heare Beza driuen thus to his shifts do you not imagine that if his case in this point were good hee could defend it better But now as concerning Cartwrightes confident assertion that the Deaconship is not to be made a step to the ministerie Besides the saide ancient fathers continuall practise of the church for 1500. yeares the chiefe learned men of Heluetia Denmark are flatly against him where they entreate of this place of the Apostle Hee that ministreth well shall purchase to himselfe a good degree Alexander Alexius a Scottishman though in some sort he be a Consistorian yet he is also against him For writing vpon the same place They shall get to themselues a good degree that is saith he digni iudicabuntur officio Episcopi they shall bee iudged worthy the office of a Bishop But Bezaes pretty apish toy I could not chose but laugh at in this place He seeth the streame of all antiquitie to runne for this step to the ministerie insomuch as I am perswaded that neither he nor all the packe of his adherēts are able to shew that ther was euer any one minister since the Apostles times til now of late but first he was a deacon therefore to come as neere the truth as he can misse it he saith that in Geneua when they choose any to the ministerie they euer prefer their Deacons being meet mē before any other of whom they haue not so good experience So as there to be one of the 4. proctors of their spittlehouse is one good meanes to get into their ministery But I will leaue these spittlehouse-deacons to climbe as they can into their Consist Bishopricks come to another māner of deacons that wold be hardly induced to be thrust either into a spittlehouse or accept of the ministerie It appeareth in the 10 Chapter how prouidently it is ordered at Geneua that none but councellers of the state cā be any Aldermen of their grande presbyterye likewise how Beza a duiseth all other Churches that will receaue their holy platforme to endeuour asmuch as they can that Noblemen princes may take that office vpō thē Which order aduise is thought to be of such importance as it seemeth for the glorie of their Eldership that our English discourser hath thought it meete to extende the same in some sorte to the choise of their Deacons Euery ignorant contemptible person saith hee is not to bee allowed to this office of Deacons but as godly wise and worshipfull as may conueniently bee found in the Congregation maye not thinke themselues too good to minister vnto Christ in his members and in the name of the Church Awaie then with these base Artizans that haue dreamed peraduenture that if the Discipline were vp they should bee I know not what awaie with them I saie these Tailors Shoemakers Mercers Drapers and such like ignorant and contemptible persons and giue place to your betters the wise and worshipfull Gentlemen of the parish Indeed where great Lordes and Princes are Elders forasmuch as Deacons maie chaunce sometimes to be ioyned in Commission with them It is verie meete they should bee men of worship But yet mee thinketh all the partes of this Senate are not fullie sutable For where the Deacons are men of worship where the Elders are Noblemen and Princes what must the Pastors and doctors bee Surelie if proportion bee kept they must bee some bodie the Doctor a king and the Pastor an Emperor What needed the learned Discourser then to suspect that peraduenture some men would bee loth to take the office of Deacons vppon them when they should bee matched in this sorte with such worthie and honorable Collegues A great preferment no doubt for any aspiring minde and few gentlemen ye maie be sure will refuse it But yet his suspition doth rise of some thing For what if these gentlemen Deacons whē their Pastors Doctors and their Noblemen-elders were consultinge together should bee thrust out of the doores notwithstanding their worships I tell you truelie that pointe is not yet resolued Bertrand de Loques a French Disciplinarian affirmeth that although the Consistorie is indeed composed of the Pastors and Elders Yet the Deacons are receaued into it so farre foorth and in as much as they shall iudge it to be expedient and profitable to aduise giue counsell consider of the censures and of that which is requisite necessary for the guiding and gouernment of the Church Well this is some thing for the Deacons but the auncient Councell of Hage which was held as it hath beene saide in the yeare 1586. hath gone much further For there it is decreed That in those places where there are but few Elders Consistorio Diaconi adiungentur the Deacons shall be adioyned vnto the Consistorie Before they were to expect vntill they might be receaued into the Consistorie but now they are of it Before they were but only to giue aduise but now being of it they must haue their voices in it But what shoulde I insist vppon such paltrie proofes You shall heare a Canon of the Ecclesiasticall discipline in Fraunce resolued vppon I know not by howe manie Synodes at Paris Poictiers Orleance Lyons c. There it is set downe for a Law in this sorte The Elders and Deacons doe make the ecclesiasticall Senate or Consistorye wherein the ministers of the worde sit as chiefe And with this French decree the authors of the seconde admonition here in England do fullie accord Where they assure the high Court of Parliament 1572 that the whole regiment of the Church is committed ioyntly to the ministers Elders and Deacons Thus farre then the matter runneth well for our worshipfull Deacons Howbeit now heare what is said to the contrarie You haue heard how the said Councels and admonitioners haue ioyned the ministers Elders and Deacons together but now in commeth another sorte and they will needes disiointe them It would hardlie bee indured by the Ministers of Geneua to haue one of the proctors of their hospitall to sitte by vertue of that office cheeke by iowle with Beza And therefore the generall resolution of all that are there is quight against the Deacons in that behalfe Beza in his treatise against Erastus and else where doth allow of none to be of the Presbyterie but Ministers and Elders Cartwright and all the rest of our reforming sconces except the said Admonitioners do wholie therein agree likewise with Beza So as I shall not trouble you with anie further allegation to this purpose sauing one and that you shall haue because
execute vvhatsoeuer they conclude be it good or bad vve say that if there be no lavvfull ministerie as in time of necessitie Dauid did eat the shevv bread vvhich vvas othervvise lavvfull for the priests only to eat of that then the Prince ought to set order and that vvhen there is a lavvfull ministerie if it shall agree of any vnlavvfull thing the Prince ought to stay it Surely you are very proper and right liberall sayers Doth not your admonisher affirme that if your platforme were once on foot all men must stand vnto the determinations of your maiesticall church officers that I may vse maister VVakes tearme except it should happen in some matter of faith they should make decrees against the vvord of God And I pray you if any such thing should happen how could the king reforme it or as you say stay it He iudgeth their sayd orders to be erronious and perceaueth the mischiefes that do depend vpon them but how shall he redresse and preuent them Shall he compell the authors of them to assemble themselues together againe and to retract and condemne all such their decrees They are of that humor as experience hath told vs that it is vnlikely they will be compelled to any thing No it were too great a disgrace for them to yeeld in any thing that once they haue broached were it good or bad but especially when it is decreed in any of their worshipfull meetings And besides if the king should presse them too far in such a matter he might find them peraduenture but very ticklish subiects Cartvvright to shuffle vp some blundering answer to these points sayth That if in such a case the church ministers should shevv themselues obstinate and vvould not be aduised by the Prince they should thereby prooue themselues to be an vnlavvfull ministerie that vpon such an occasion the Prince might remooue thē Remouethē How By any ordinarie authoritie which you do allow to the christian magistrats in causes ecclesiasticall But you haue told vs before your mind herein In effect that it must be done by an extraordinarie authoritie euen by the same right that Dauid did eat of the shew-bread which were it not in such a case of necessitie none but the Priests might in any wise eat of For otherwise as it is before mentioned where such a platforme is in execution as they seeke for the Prince hath not any thing to doe by their doctrine God knoweth either with placing or displacing of church ministers Or if Cartvvright will say that I wrest his words to the worst construction and that he meaneth plainely as purposing thereby to confirme for his part her maiesties ordinarie supreme authoritie in those maner of causes I am content he make the best of his owne words that he can whether he meant ordinarie or extraordinarie authoritie so that when he hath done he will stand vnto it But let him say what he is able yet he hath a woolfe by the eares and shall neuer be able so to shift his hands but that it will follow that both he and all the pastors doctors and elders that are combined with him are by his words both obstinate and vnlawfull ministers except he shall withdraw this part of his wall as being to weake to make such a separation from the papists as he pretendeth For notwithstanding that the present gouernment of the church of England is established and confirmed by a nationall synod with the generall cōsent of the whole land to be a most lawful godly forme of gouernment notwithstanding that her Maiestie doth so thinke of it and hath shewed herselfe many waies as by her acts of parlemēt her proclamatiōs her sundry speeches yea by the punishing imprisoning of some certaine persons vtterly to dislike of their pretended discipline as being in her princely iudgement a meere forgerie vaine conceit of busie restlesse heads cōtrary to the word of God and ancient practise of all the godly churches in the world for 1500 yeares all these things I say notwithstanding yet they haue rayled libelled raged against the said present gouernmēt They haue and do still neglect as well her maiesties setled iudgment of the vnlawfulnesse of their decreed platforme as also her lawes her pleasure and many commandements that they should desist hereafter from that their erronious deuise and submit themselues quietly to the forme established Nay they are so far from yeelding in this point to any authoritie of her maiestie whether ordinarie or extraordinarie as that they haue attempted by very vnlawfull and seditious means to aduance their purposes against her highnesse will and do plainly giue it out that they wil not desist they will not hold their peace they will haue their desires though they be driuen to vndertake such means for that end as will make their hearts to ake who are their cheese impugners Stand now to your words maister Cartvvright if you meant plainly vz. If the ministerie shall agree of any vnlavvfull thing the prince ought to stay it and then are not all the packe of you concluded by your said answer to be obstinat persons and a false ministerie If you haue any refuge in the world it is this that whatsoeuer the said nationall councell the learned mens opinions that do impugne you the lawes of this realme all the ancient churches and her maiestie relying vpon them whatsoeuer they altogether do thinke iudge to be lawfull you care not or you are sory for it but all that notwithstanding you are sure for that you haue decreed amōgst your selues vz. that you haue not therein erred and therefore they must all beare with you though you rest your selues vpon the truth of your own decrees giue no place either to councel law prince fathers learned men or any other authoritie whatsoeuer that maketh against you And will not H.N. and Barovv will not al hereticks schismaticks say as much where is then the princes authoritie you spake of For staying such kind of proceeding what course shall he take These ministers as I sayd conclude vpon their owne deuises The king considereth of them and findeth them vnlawfull but they denie it what shall hee do Your refuge Cartvvright is euerie Heretickes refuge If her Maiestie with all the reasons mentioned cannot stay you and your sect let neuer any king or ciuile magistrat looke by any authoritie which you do giue vnto them in causes ecclesiasticall to stay the fancies of any such fellowes But the substance of all their deuises is nothing but pretences of things that are not And agreeable therevnto is this second part of Cartvvrights wall of the difference betweene him and the Papists who in effect for ought I see are as franke to Christian Princes euen in this point as either he or his fellowes Princes extraordinarily sayth Harding haue laudably intermedled vvith Religion as iudges and rulers of spirituall causes Good Christian Princes euer tooke into their
orders to this poynte in the newly subscribed booke of discipline Plurium sententiae verbo Dei consentaneae singulares omnes eius cansilij conuentus ecclesiae parere debent All Churches must obey the sentence of the greater part of that Councellor assembly vnder whose direction they are the same being agreeable to the worde of God And agayne It is made a part of theyr Aldermens office to see Vt quae à conuentibus piè decreta retulerint à ciuibus suis earum ecclesiarum studiosè obseruentur that those godly decrees which they shall bring from the assemblyes bee diligently obserued of theyr Cittizens of those Churches Lastly Conuentus sententia rata habeatur donec à conuentu maior is authoritatis secus iudicatum puerit Let the sentence of euery assembly bee ratified vntill it shall be otherwise iudged-of by an assembly of greater authoritie As a classicall to bee ouerruled by a prouinciall a prouinciall by a nationall a nationall by a generall And thus they write of theyr owne orders and assemblyes Which rules take them altogether as they lye if they bee true as I doe not greatly dislike them being well applyed then do these busie bodies among vs sin most directly against theyr own consciences in that they oppose themselues as they do against those things which the greater part of the national Sinode high court of parliament of this Realme hath allowed of beeing most agreeable to the worde of God before some generall Councell or assembly of more authoritie haue iudged otherwise and determined for the course that they haue proceeded in Generall Councell I am sure they haue none And for any other assembly that hath beene held and should haue greater authoritie in England than the nationall Synode of all our owne Churches and the high Court of Parliament let them name it In their writinges generally they exclayme against the high Commission or at the least against the Commissioners as many of them as bee clergie men affirming it to bee against the worde of God that any such should bee of that Commission And yet in Scotland it was agreeable with the Scriptures that fortie or fiftie at the least Ministers of the worde as I conceyue it shoulde bee verie great Commissioners from the King Anno 1589. to very manie great purposes euen for the purging of that lande from all sortes of enemies to the religion there professed Likewise earnest suite is made in the Supplication before mentioned to her Maiestie and found in Fields study that the foresaid foure twentie Doctors that should bee of the Parliament house might be likewise generall Commissioners vnder the great scale of England or the more part of them to beare and determine all and euery secte errour heresie contempt default and misdemeanour agaynst the worde of God and her Maiesties lawes of reformation of religion to depriue any Pastour not dooing or neglecting his duetie to examine witnesses and to imprison the bodyes of all such malefactors and to certifie their names to the Lordes of her Maiesties Councell that they may receiue further condigne punishment Besides there bee some that resemble the high Commission nowe in force vnto the authoritie which they challenge to theyr seuerall Elderships Whereupon one of them acquainted I doubt not with the desires of the rest sayth That if the high Commission were setled in fiue hundred places more than it is and shoulde gouerne by the worde of God and lawes of this Realme there would rise more profit thereby to religion than yet hath beene found by the Bishops He would haue it in fiue hundreth places Scotland is diuided into two and fiftie Eldershippes and of likelyhood they would haue fiue hundred in England And that as I take it is the mystery of his number of fiue hundred To conclude I finde another motion which liketh wel that if there were fiue hundred Elderships more or fewer established yet there might be in euery great Towne certaine Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall appoynted to looke that the Elderships did their dueties if they did not to compel them therunto by ciuill authority So as therby it appeareth that although our Bishops other Clergie men may not be such Commissioners with vs in some few places yet their Pastors Doctors Aldermen may in euery parish or so many of them or I knowe not whom as it should please her Maiestie to assigne to euery greate Towne Surely the worde of God is much troubled with such kinde of choppers and chaungers of it euery giddy heade wresting and wringing it to serue his owne deuise Wee shoulde haue Commissions to thatch houses withall I see if they might be our directors They are offended with the authoritie that her Maiestie dooth giue vnto her Commissioners for causes ecclesiasticall as beeing vnlawfull in that by vertue of that commission they may sende sometimes for offendors to appeare before them by purseuants and commit them to prison as occasion shal fall out and theyr faultes misdemeanors and contempts shall require But at Geneua the like authoritie in effecte is lawfull in their Eldership For there the Consistorie hath a Beadle sergeant or purseuant or as you lift to tearme him appoynted by the ciuill Magistrates to attende vppon it whose office is to call such before the Consistorie as the Aldermen shall appoynt him And for imprisoning of any offendors and contemptuous persons there is notany matter almost for the which they may call a man before them but one parte of the punishment of it by the lawes of the Cittie is imprisonment As if any when hee appeareth in the Consistorie or els where be so hardie as but to speake euill of any of the Ministers or misname them he is to be imprisoned Besides as I haue noted it before theyr Elders are alwayes of the Councell of state and seldome or neuer but they will bee sure to haue one of the foure Syndickes to bee of that bench So as together they raigne lyke Lordes in theyr Consistorie and who dare say My Lordes why doe you so If they direct imprisonment is but a small matter I speake not agaynst that order there let them vse it as they thinke good Only I see not why the worde of God should bee so bountifull to them and is so sparing to vs. In that by the orders of our Church and the laws of the Realme there is required of Ministers a subscription to her Maiesties lawfull authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes to the Articles of Religion and to the Communion booke c. greate quarrels haue beene raysed and many exceptions are taken against it Insomuch as one a wise man I warraunt you dooth ascribe all the daungers that haue beene complotted against her Maiesties person by the traitrous Papistes the dearth of corne the cause that we haue had such watching and warding by souldiers and lastly that the Spanyards would haue inuaded this land
euerie king prince being as he saith a new Pope by that meanes much worse then the olde So that hereby you see what is the drift of our factious cōsistorians in laboring to make the name of the Canō law odious You may not think that they differ in substance frō their M. Viretus but they are growē more crafty The matter that pincheth thē is this that in the acts of Parliament which are in force there is euer a Prouiso that nothing therof shal be in force which is contrary to the laws of this Realme or to the prerogatiue roiall of the prince If euer anie K. in England should be so far seduced as that he would yeald to establish their counterfeit elderships in this Realme with all the royall authoritie which they challenge of right to belong vnto thē changing the two former prouisoes should enact it that all the canō-law shold be in force sauing so much as should bee contrary to the orders prerogatiue of their elderships If I shold then be aliue as I trust I shall not I durst before hand hazard a great wager vpon it that they would most readily with a great applause receiue it almost worship it For as I said you may not imagine but that Viretus hath disclosed their verie hartes You know there is in euery church for the most part a distinctiō of places betwixt the cleargie the laity We terme one place the chauncell the other the bodie of the church which manner of distinctiō doth greatly offend the tender consciences forsooth of the purer sorte of our reformers Insomuch as M. Gilby a chiefe mā in his time amongst thē doth tearme the Quire a cage reckoneth that separatiō of the ministers from the congregation one of the hundred points of popery which hee affirmeth do yet remaine in the church of England Howbeit admit but of their elderships into euery parish thē you haue thē who will proue it out of the word of God that there ought to be such a separation of their Aldermen euery one of thē though he be but a Cobler from the rest of the Idiots that is all the other parishioners of what state soeuer Hic or do in ecclesia seruetur c. Let this order be obserued in the church saith Danaeus he sendeth vs the rule frō Geneua that these who do beare any office in the church distinguātur et separentur a reliquo populo may be distinguished separated frō the rest of the people c. It a fieri decorū est et vtile For it is decēt profitable that it should be so The Bishop he meaneth euery minister must stand or sit eminente loco alofte c. and let the elders sit by him tum vt populo appareant that the people may beholde them tum vt ministri concionantis doctrinam facilius intelligant et obseruent and that they maye the more easily heare the doctrine of the Minister preaching and the better marke it For of likelihood they are to be the preachers Censors You wil saie peraduenture wher there is some L. Maior some Councellor of state or some other great Magistrate Nay the King himselfe for he must bee of some parish where shall he or anie of them sit That is wiselie prouided for I warrant you For how should it otherwise be seeing the Prouiso commeth from Geneua Magistratus pius c. Let the godly Magistrate who is an honorable member of the Church sit in an honourable and perspicuous place where the Church may neither seeme to fauoure the arrogancy and pride of men nor the contempte of Magistrates And great discretion therein surely If the Magistrate should sit too high it would make him proude if too low it would bring him into contempt Ergo modus in loco illi concedendo seruetur c therefore let a mean be kept in appointing of a place vnto him Knight Lorde Earle Duke King or Emperour the holie Discipline respecteth no mens persons that he may both vnderstand he is preferred before the rest and yet withall that he hath no dominion ouer the word of God In deede excesse in anie thing is nought Sedeat itaque inferiori subsellio let him therfore sit in a lower seat then the preacher of the word of God and the Prophet that he may both see and acknowledge himselfe to be subiect to the threats of the word The parson or Bishop of euerie parish with his Artizan Elders must sitte in the highest place that the people may feede themselues with the sight of them the ciuile Magistrates of what degree soeuer must content themselues with inferior roomes and the rest of the people are to sit super mattas sedilia inferiora vppon pesses and little lowe formes I am perswaded it would greatlie trouble the subiects of England to see such a Metamorphosis in her Maiesties Chappell But see what a notable thing Discipline is and how the Ministers of Geneua can plaie the Herralds in marshalling of euerie state into their due places according to their callings If these men were then in England and should suruey our Quiers I suppose nothing would offend them but that that they are too low The place where the Roode-loft was would bee thought peraduenture more sutable for their Elders Indeed there the people might best behold them Lastlie because I will end this Chapter if Cartwright can get but one Scholiaste that doth in shew make for anie thing he liketh it is notable to see what reuill hee maketh with it And in like sort Maister Beza when the Fathers do fit him as in some points they doe against Erastus then these manner of phrases are common Rectè obseruauit Augustinus Augustine wel obserued it c. Againe an vero Chrys. c. what doe you thinke that Chrysostome and all the old Churches not one excepted saw not this Againe Hic te obtestamur frater c. we do here besech you brother that you would wel consider in whose behalfe and against whom you dispute cum rem ipsam ab vsu non distinguas when you distinguish not the thing it selfe from the abuse of it Againe Haec Chrysostomus quae tibi satisfacere rectè debent These thinges Chrysostome affirmeth which ought to satisfie you fully Again Nunquam aliter fuit hic locus in Ecclesia explicatus This place was neuer otherwise expounded in the Church And againe A temporibus Apostolorum ad haec vsque secula nunquam illa caruerunt Ecclesiae From the Apostles times euen vnto the age wherein we liue the Church did neuer want autoritie of Excommunication And as at times they are content to accept of the Fathers so will they also vpon the like occasion allow of generall Councells Whereas certaine persons in Transiluania beganne to reuiue diuerse old Heresies about the person of Christ Maister Beza writeth in this sorte An non in