or not The Scripture does not tell us of a Church which is to continue only to the end of the Fifth Age. It tells us indeed of one which is to continue to the End of the World And this Church I hope may be found as well in the Fourteenth Age as in the Fifth For if all the Christians of the Fourteenth were Erroneous and Corrupted and stood in need of Reformation those of the Fifth might have been so too for any thing which the Scriptures can assure us to the contrary This Rock then of my Protestant Faith being shaken I mean a Belief that the Church of England had Model'd it self according to the Doctrins of the first Five Hundred Years it will not be wonder'd at if at least I gave way to some doubts I found no better footing in that way which was taken by those Church of England-men who conversed more with Roman Catholics than with Protestant Dissenters viz. Scripture as it is understood by every private Man. First Because those who took that way differed from one another in most material things and also Such as were esteemed Heretics by the Church of England followed the same Rule Secondly Because according to my own Judgment who were by this Rule to judge for my self the Church of England was beholding to Tradition for some Parts of her Doctrin and Practice as Infant-Baptism the Observation of the first Day of the Week and the like having no clear Scripture for them and therefore could not hold them and require them to be held by the Rule of Scripture Interpreted without the help of Tradition Thirdly Because it was sincerely my own Judgment that the Scripture was much clearer for the Catholics than for the Protestants particularly in Transubstantiation Sacramental Confession Extreme Vnction Purgatory St. Peters Supremacy and lastly and chiefly being that which includes all other Points the Decisive Authority of the Church wherefore if I must follow Scripture Interpreted by my self I must at the same time necessarily cease to follow the Church of England These certainly were Motives if not for an absolute departure from the Church of England yet still at least as I have already hinted for the doubting of her Truth About this time I remember that I had two notions concerning Faith. First That Faith was not that which must necessarily suit with the Fancies of particular Men since then it ought to be as various as those Fancies were but it was that which God would have us believe whether we fancied it or not viz. That which he would have us * Bringing into Captivity all understanding into the Obedience of Christ 2 Cor. c. 10. v. 5. submit our Fancies and Judgments to meerly because it was revealed by him And in this submission as I thought consisted both the Difficulty and Merit of Faith. And consequently that I ought not so much to consider the nature of the things proposed to be believed as the Authority by which they were proposed Secondly That this Faith was the * Ephes c. 2. v. 8. Gift of God and for that reason that more confidence was to be put in humbe Prayer for the obtaining it than in any Human Skill or Industry Wherefore as far as God Almighties Grace assisted my weakness I endeavored to obtain this Gift by that means making it my earnest Prayer to his Divine Goodness that I might know the Truth and firmly purposing to embrace that which I should be convinced of tho' it should be ever so contrary to my Worldly Interest as the Roman Catholic Religion at that time most apparently was To Prayer I judged it necessary to add a serious endeavor of amending my Life lest otherwise I should be found to sue Hypocritically for more light from Almighty God whilst I made no use of that which I had received from him by complying with what I already knew to be his Will. This is a Point which all those who are in search of the True Faith ought to examin their Consciences upon and therefore I would not omit the mention of it in this place Amidst these doubts I confess ingenuously that what our English Doctors have made so light of was of great moment with me viz. That the Church of England-men affirmed that Salvation might be had amongst the Roman Catholics but the Roman Catholics absolutely denyed that the like was to be had amongst them For Salvation in the Roman Communion both Churches concurr'd whereas for the latter we had only the bare word of Protestants in their own behalf Who likewise at the same time told us they were fallible and consequently for ought they knew might be mistaken And if they were actually mistaken I should be undone by rarrying with them whereas on the other side if they were not mistaken I could receive no damage by being amongst the Roman Catholics In a word I considered that if the Protestants were true I should be safe with the Roman Catholics but if the Roman Catholics were right I could not be so with the Protestants This Motive is so strong in it's own Nature that many Protestants confess that it must needs have great Power with those who as they say cannot throughly examin the differences betwixt us and these I take to be the greatest part of Mankind And if so I will venture to add that GOD Almighty having taken as much care of the Ignorant as of the Learned would never permit Falshood to be supported by such Arguments as must in common Prudence oblige all unlearned persons to be engaged in it But above all methinks this Argument should be of force with those Vniversal Gentlemen who pretend that their Religion is the Catholic because they believe nothing but that wherein all agree forgetting that such a Restraint of their Belief is peculiar to themselves and not common whereas here is an Agreement of all Parties at least such as have any Esteem with them on which they may safely rely viz. That Salvation may be had in the Roman Catholic Church which is all we do or at least ought to aim at by our Religion As for those other Points which perhaps they hold viz. A Deity a Saviour and the like tho' they have the universal consent of all Christians for their Truth yet they have it not for their sufficiency to Salvation especially so as to exclude the Necessity of believing other Articles when they are duly proposed and it will be of small Consequence to them that what they hold common with others proves True if their additional Article which holds this Truth to be sufficient should prove False What was urged in derogation of this Argument as if the Protestants shew'd a greater Charity by thinking well of Catholics than Catholics did by thinking ill of them was nothing to my purpose For I was then in search of True Faith and not of Charity and knew withal that how great appearance soever there might be of Charity it could not
and Knew the voice of their Church and therefore according to the Doctors own assertion needed it not But perhaps the Doctor will say that for the Verbal Translation of the Scripture the Protestants are not necessitated to have recourse to particular Men the Bible being Translated to their hands and warranted by public Authority tho' here too they will be at a loss unless it appear to them that they may confide in this Authority but for the Sense in all dubious places they ought to Address themselves to their Ministers They may do it if they please And if not I suppose they may let it alone and this last with most safety For according to our late Divines all things necessary to Salvation are plain in Scripture and therefore to look after the meaning of dubious places is to do more than of bounden Duty is required and has the appearance of a Work of Supererogation which is such an abominable thing with the Church of England that they have a whole * See 14th Article Article against it and declare that it cannot be taught without arrogancy and impiety much less as I suppose PRACTISED Wherefore as yet there appears no cause why the Apprentice should be chidden for not having waited on Dr. T. in this occasion And indeed if that be the case viz. That the Members of the Church of England are to go to their Ministers for the Construction of these dubious places I do not perceive that they have any great advantage over those of the Church of Rome tho' what the Doctor says were true viz. That Roman Catholics were to apply themselves to particular Priests for the Translation of the Scriptures since the Protestants themselves must make the same application for the Sense and Meaning of these Scriptures And this Sense is that which is of the greatest importance or rather That which is of any Importance at all But in Truth they are not particular Priests which Catholics depend on for either the Translation or Sense of the Scripture in any necessary Point of Faith but it is on their Church whose Voice is as Intelligible at least and with the Doctors leave much farther Heard than that of the Church of England For is it not full as evident in England and much more evident in other Parts of the World that the Church of Rome Teaches a Purgatory than it is that the Church of England Teaches the contrary And so of other Doctrins This is an Age wherein Men whilest they Scepticize on evident Truths are Positive in Absurdities and therefore there want not Those who ask how the Members of the Church of Rome can know what their Church holds But when they shall have considered how they themselves come to know what That Church holds whilest they Condemn it's Doctrins as also how a Man may come to understand what is held by the Church of England they will not I suppose expect any farther Answer This were it not so Common and even with Men of no Common Wit would have been too frivolous to have been taken notice of One endeavor which I used for the speaking somewhat of a Guide in Controversie was on the following occasion Dr. T. having called me to him and desiring as he said that * Pag. 21. Mr. P. would stick to something took upon him to explain a Text of Scripture which had been long before Cited by Mr. P. for the Authority of the Church viz. That of St. Matthew c. 18. v. 17. If he will not hear the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican The Doctor said that considering the Antecedent Verses this ought to be understood of ordinary Trespasses such as the not paying of a just debt c. And not of Articles of Faith making use of a tedious Instance to that purpose the summ whereof was * Ibid. that in case a Man should refuse to pay his debts after one or two demands he is put into the Ecclesiastical Courts supposing it proper for their cognisance And if he will not stand to their Sentence then he is Excommunicated and Treated as such a One. Whereupon I told the Doctor that for my own part I understood that Text of Scripture quite otherwise than he did being persuaded that we were obliged by it to Hear the Church in all those things wherein the same Church doth declare that she hath Power to Judge And most especially in matters of Faith Which in their own Nature seem more proper for the Cognisance of Ecclesiastical Courts than a Question of Debt That it was not unusual for our Blessed Saviour on a particular occasion to deliver a general Precept as for instance when the Jews ask'd him whether or no it were lawful to pay Tribute to Caesar he * Mat. c. 22. v. 19 c. called for the Tribute-mony and ask'd whose Image it bore and being Answered that it was Caesars he gave this Rule Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesars Which Rule I suppose is general and hath regard not only to Tribute but also to whatever else is due from Subjects to Sovereign Princes as Respect Obedience and the like tho' the occasion on which the Rule was made and that which immediately preceded it seem to be Particular and to look no farther than his Pecuniary Rights That in like manner tho' this Text viz. If he will not hear the Church c. might be spoken in a Particular occasion it could not be thence inferr'd that it was not of a more large Extension especially if we should compare it with other Texts such as are * Joh. c. 20. v. 21. As my Father sent me so I send you * Matth. c. 28. v. 19 20. Go and Teach all Nations and lo I am with you always even unto the end of the World. a Luke c. 10. v. 16. He that Heareth You Heareth ME c. b Eph. c. 4. v. 11 c. And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry c. That we henceforth be no more Children c If Pastors are left to keep us from being tossed to and fro it follows that we must hearken to them as also that they must be kept from being tossed to and fro themselves Otherwise they will not be able to effect that for which they were left tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of Doctrin c. d Hebr. c. 13. v. 17. Obey those that are set over you for they watch as being to render account for your Souls All which places at least according to my own Judgment are clear for that Perpetuity and that Authority of the Church which are believed by Roman Catholics But above all this Truth seems to be most apparent to me when I consider what immediately follows in this place of Scripture viz. When
cannot be perform'd under Ten or Twenty Thousand Pounds worth of Books And even after all it is my opinion that the * â—hat makes all Doctrins plain and clear About two hundred pounds a year Hudib Money will be able to make it out better without the Books than with them The other is by saying according to Dr. Jackson's Notion * See above pag. 41. that the Church of England before the Reformation was in the Church of Rome and then the Proof of this Succession will come very cheap and if you give Six-pence for it it will be more than it is worth Now for such as will not or cannot go to the price of the former which I take to be the Boy 's case it is but reasonable that they should be contented with the latter If the Doctors think that I am somewhat too light on this Occasion they must pardon me for I knew not how to make them agree on better Terms THE APPENDIX VVHil'st these latter Sheets were in the Press Dr. Tenison's new Book entituled Mr. Pulton Considered came forth I cast my Eye on it but having read the Preface I found so many things which requir'd the Black Note that I was afraid to enter farther into the Book lest I should be overwhelm'd with matter and so either tempted to lengthen my own Pamphlet which I would not willingly do or else remain under a kind of vexation by seeing many Fallacies without exposing them when they should seem to lie in my way Wherefore to avoid both these Inconveniences I desir'd a Friend who had read the Book to inform me what there was in it that had any relation to my self that so I might either note or neglect it as I should see cause And as for the rest of this Worthy Piece wherein the Doctor as far as I observed him hath outdone himself in many of those laudable Qualities I have spoken of above I knew that so far as it should be thought necessary it would be under the Examination of a better Artist The Doctor says in his forementioned Preface That he went to this Conference in the simplicity of a Christian as to a private Discourse which says he the Arts of others have improv'd into a public Brawl Whom the Doctor means by others in this place I cannot well tell But I am apt to imagin that They who were conscious either of the Weakness of their Cause before the Conference or of their ill Success in it would not be over-fond of making the thing public For my part I am so charitable as to think there were no Arts used by either Side for this purpose the business was so carried that it could not well be otherwise Nay there were so many Hearers of both Sexes and Five of the Doctor 's Party for One of ours at this Conference that it had been the greatest Art in the World to have kept it secret But for the admittance of these People if there were any fault in it I know not whom to blame unless it be the Master of the House who doubtlesly might have refused entrance to as many as he pleased But perhaps the Good Man reckon'd upon nothing less than a complete Victory and in consequence of that the Recovery of his lost Sheep and therefore according to a Gospel-Example tho' somewhat too soon invited his Neighbors and Acquaintance to rejoyce with him And if this proved inconvenient to the Doctor he may learn by it that it is not always for his advantage that his Parishioners should have too great an Opinion of him but in the mean time there is no manner of reason why he should be angry at Us because his own Admirers were mistaken unless it be such as men that stumble have of quarrelling with those who shall happen to be near them tho' they contributed nothing to their Mischance He goes on to amuse his Parishioners by telling them of high Accusations lay'd by Catholic Writers on several of his Brethren of Insincerity Disingenuity Want of Modesty and the like And this Charge is set forth by a pompous Company of Great and Reverend Names that in view of so much Reverence and Grandeur our Disrespect may appear the more Notorious It is pity that so much Art should be so ill employ'd Are these terms of Insincerity Disingenuity c. any thing else but the plain and simple nay the softest Appellations of such things as these Gentlemen are taxed with Let them forbear to do or prove they have not done what they are unwilling should be named and all will be well If they have any thing to say against those Proofs wherewith we endeavor to make good our Accusations it will be to their purpose but as long as they shall give us Occasion for Complaints they must be contented to receive them in such Language as our Ancestors have left us 'till they themselves shall teach us one that is more to their satisfaction And yet what are these Terms which the Doctor complains of in comparison of those which the Ancient Fathers bestowed on the Separatists of their Time and that meerly for Deserting the Church and without regard to any sinister way they might take in particular to support and justifie their Schism To omit a multitude of Instances to this purpose be pleased to hearken to St. Augustin who was far from wanting Compassion for such as were seduc'd by Heresie and observe how he delivers himself in respect of a Reformer of those days * Sed ill a Ecclesia quae fuit omnium Gentium jam non est periit Hoc dicunt qui in illâ non sunt O impudentem vocem Illa non est quia tu in illâ non es Hanc vocem abominabilem detestabilem praesumptionis falsitatis plenam nullâ Veritate suffultam nullâ Sapientiâ illuminatam nullo Sale conditam vanam temerariam praecipitem perniciosam praevidit Spiritus Dei c. D. Aug. Enarr 2. in Psalm 101. That Church which was composed out of all Nations is no more she is perished or in our Modern Reformation-Language corrupted This says he is the saying of those who are not in the Church O impudent saying Is she not because thou art not in her This most abominable and hateful saying full of Presumption and Falshood destitute of Truth void of Wisdom insipid vain rash precipitate pernicious was foreseen by the Spirit of God c. Such and much more was the Language of these Holy men on such occasions The Apostles themselves notwithstanding that Meekness which they learnt from their Blessed Master both by Precept and Example were no less liberal in this kind than others as sufficiently appears by all their Writings St. Jude to give you one Instance of these also in that very Epistle wherein he reprehends Railing is so far from thinking severity of Language towards Schismatics to be so that his whole Work seems to be nothing else but if I may so speak
Learned Protestants But on the contrary I have been so far from repenting that I turned so Young that the more I read or discoursed of these matters the more I discerned the Excellence of the Catholic Religion on the one hand and the blindness of so many of my fellow Creatures on the other and consequently I had no other causes for grief than first that my Conversion was no sooner and next that I had not yet been grateful enough that it was so soon The Doctor says that * Pag. 5. no Man who well understands their Church departs from it upon true Principles And I am much mistaken if there be not very many who know well enough what the Church of England Teaches and yet depart from her on no other principles than those which they learnt from her self viz. That the Church is to be followed no farther than she agrees with Scripture and every particular Man is left to judge how far she agrees with it It would be tedious and unnecessary to set down here all those Principles or Motives upon which I departed from the Church of England since I cannot so much pretend to extraordinary things as to deny but that they are the same which have led others from her both before and since and may be seen at large in many Books However if my Readers will give me leave I will lay before them some of those Points which began my doubts and prevail'd more particularly with me * Some Motives of my Conversion to the Catholic Faith. First I had been taught that the Church of Christ continued pure for the first Five Hundred Years after it's Institution and that from thence downwards several gross Errors and Corruptions had crept into it and that it had been infected with these Plagues for about a Thousand Years And that then Almighty â—od out of his Infinite Commiseration enlightned Martin Luther Zuinglius and other as I thought Pious Men so far as that they clearly discern'd these Corruptions Preach'd against them and by that means rescued a great number of Christians from that darkness which the Gates of Hell contrary to our Lords promise or some unaccountable Fatality had engaged them in And Lastly that I my self had been so happy as to be one of this number This was that Idea of Christianity which I then had For as to what they talk'd of a constant Succession of Protestants from the fifth Age down to our times I had never heard it from any Wise Man nor indeed can such an Imposture find place with any one who is so much an Historian as the common Discourse will make him Every body knows that the first Reformers when they left the Roman Church joyned with no other Society or Sect of Christians then in the World either in Communion or Doctrin which must have been done had this pretended Succession continued Their pretence was at that time to Reform the whole Church and not to seek out any True one which then had a Being and stood in no need of Reformation Nay they were so far from thinking it necessary to joyn with any former Church in order to the preserving a Succession that they did not unite with one another But parted their stock and each Adventurer set up for himself This then was the most Rational Account that I could give of my Faith viz. That our Church finding that all Christian Churches had been in Error for a Thousand Years forsook that Error and reformed it self according to the pattern of the first Five Hundred Years after Christ For to be of a Christian Church which never had any being from Christs time till this present I thought a most unreasonable thing Now none can write after a Copy without having that Copy which they pretend to Write by I mean it was impossible for the Church of England to Reform it self according to the first Five Hundred Years of Christianity without knowing what those Christians Taught and Practis'd And how could this possibly be done but by the Holy Fathers and other Writers of those times Wherefore I firmly believed as I am persuaded many Thousands do that these Writers were meer strangers to all those Doctrins which we had forsaken and consequently that no mention was made amongst them of Purgatory Prayer for the Dead Invocation of Saints Veneration of Holy Images and Relics the Sacrifice of the Mass the Reality of Christs Flesh in the Eucharist the Decisive Authority of the Church in Controversial matters the Spiritual Supremacy of St. Peter and his Successors with some other things of this nature I say I took it for granted that nothing of all this was to be found in those Primitive Records of the Christian Religion But when I looked into them I found it quite otherwise and that those things which hitherto I had accounted Novelties were as clearly set down in these Writings as any other Points of Christian Doctrin For instances to avoid length I will refer my Readers to a Book not long since Published Entituled Nubes Testium which hath Collections out of some of those Books which then fell into my hands and must weigh with Men of any tolerable moderation notwithstanding that which is or can be said against it Now what was there for me to be done in this condition I had taken it on trust that I was a Member of a Church which had Copied out the first Five Hundred Years but found my Error It was not unknown to me that several Quotations out of the Fathers were produced in the behalf of Protestant Opinions But-to me they all seemed wrested or at least capable of interpretations which were not repugnant to what the same Fathers more plainly and fully speak in other places for a contrary Doctrin In a word what appeared to me in favor of the Catholic Cause was clear full and incapable of any other meaning But that which offered it self in opposition to it was obscure short and interpretable in another sense and indeed for the most part evidently requiring another when joyned to it's antecedents and consequents Others said That the Fathers were Men and had Errors and that they contradicted one another and themselves to boot But this Plea was as little to my satisfaction as the former For this serves only to weaken the Authority of the Fathers and if good evinces nothing but that They are not to be relyed on And then how can the Church of England make out that she follows the first Five Hundred Years when she hath no other means of knowing what was believed in those times but by such Authors as are not to be trusted For what some People say of our being able to know by Scripture what was the Belief and Practice of these Primitive Christians is wholly absurd For we know not from Scripture at least according to the Principles of the Church of England whether the Christians of the first Five Hundred Years lived according to the Scripture
he should take that which he said to me for something For my part I do not remember what passed herein at the Conference with distinction enough to be able to relate it wherefore I shall take it for granted that the Doctor gives us a faithful Account of the whole Affair neither indeed is it so much for his advantage that I should suspect a Fraud What the Doctor says of my not replying is likewise extremely probable I told him at the beginning of the Conference that I came not as a Disputant but an Hearer and he treated me ever after and even when he disputed with me accordingly viz. as one who was to hear and not to speak And in the present Case whether it be probable that my silence proceeded from the want of a Reply or of the Liberty of giving it I shall freely leave my Readers to judge after a short Reflection on the Doctor 's words The Doctor it seems had been ask'd how the Church of England granting her self to be Fallible could be the Church built upon a Rock c. viz. one that could not fail To this he says and calls it an Answer that their Church is no more Fallible than any other in the World. What trifling is here The Quaerist supposes that according to Scripture there must be an Infallible Church viz. as I have said one that cannot fail and that the Church of England acknowledges her self to be Fallible and then concludes by asking How that which by its own Confession is Fallible can pretend to be what is truly Infallible The Answerer neither tells him at least plainly whether there be any Infallible Church or whether the Church of England deny or own her self to be Fallible but answers like one who knew not what to say The Church of England says he is no more Fallible than any other which is as much as to say She is no more Fallible than those whom she takes to be in Error An excellent Security For whil'st he pretends that his Church is no more Fallible than others he doth not deny it to be as Fallible as others Wherefore the whole Discourse amounts to this Gentlemen here are many Churches that have fallen into Error and we have been so wise as to separate from them on this account and now for our comfort we are as Fallible as they and for ought we know may be as much mistaken But proceeds the Doctor the Providence of Godwill not suffer * One would think however that the Providence of God had suffer'd all Churches to sail together who should consider that the Reformers could find none amongst them with which if you will believe them they could joyn with safe Consciences and so were forced to separate from ALL. The common Answer is That before the Reformation there were some Churches sound in Necessaries of Faith which say they is a sufficient fulfilling of our Lord's Promise of being always with his Church So then it seems we are assured by a Divine Promise that at least some Church or Churches were sound in Necessaries before the Reformation But that a Church separating from all others shall be so they do not they cannot pretend that they have any Promise from God nor other security than what they receive from a Banquerupt Ensurer viz. their own Presumption And this certainly deserves their most serious Consideration Members may fail without the Destruction of the Body all to fail together The place of Scripture alluded to by the Quaerist speaks of one Church whereas the Doctor talks of several It is true that this one Church to which this Promise of Infallibility is made consists of divers particular Churches as its Members and that it is possible for any of these Members to * So far as such fail in Particular but not for all of them together and therefore if the Doctor had proved either that his Congregation was this whole Infallible Church here spoken of or else shewn some such whole Church whereof the Church of England was a Member he had done his business But whereas he does neither of these things the Query continues still without an Answer But because what is defective in Strength may be supply'd by Number according to what I have said * Pag. 64. above out comes another Cypher We have says the Doctor a certain Rule and sufficient Means I suppose the meaning of this is That the Scripture is certain and I will add in the Name of the Church of England That if we could hit on the right Sense of it we should be so too But because we are uncertain whether we have this Right Sense or not notwithstanding our certain Rule we must continue uncertain And then because we have no means of knowing when we have this Right Sense and when we have it not whatever our means are sufficient for they do not suffice for Certainty Hitherto we have made but little progress let us therefore make room for what comes next We are adds the Doctor as infallibly sure of the Necessaries of Faith as a man is of casting up a Sumright tho' by Misattention 't was possible to commit a mistake Not to ask the Doctor at present By what Scales he weights the * I thought the Infallibility of a Church had been from God's Promise and consequently somewhat more than what is meerly natural Infallibility of the Church of England and finds it neither more nor less than a man has in casting up a Sum Is not what he says here also as much as to say that they are as Infallible as a man that may be mistaken which was never that I know of deny'd to the Church of England But here I take it for granted tho' the expression as well as that which follows seems to be somewhat doubtful that the Dr. does not intend to say thus much viz. That tho' indeed His Church might be mistaken in casting up its Sum were it guilty of Misattention yet now being assured that it is guilty of none it is impossible for it to mistake I suppose I say he does not mean this For if there be no possibility of mistaking in this Computation but by Misattention and the Church of England is sure that it has no Misattention when it computes it is sure likewise that it is Infallible because it is sure by being without Misattention that it is without a possibility of mistaking which is contrary to the supposition of the Query which was not deny'd by the Doctor and to the Fallibility which this Church owns of her self The like must be said of that which follows viz. That the Church of England can prove it hath rightly computed For if a right Computation be liable to no mistake and the Church of England can prove that it hath this right Computation it proves at the same time that it is liable to no mistake and therefore Infallible In a word if what the Doctor says imports that his
me in short concerning a Guide in Controversie viz. That a Man after using all Christian means and Pag. 18. the help of all Ministerial Guides possible must at last judge for himself and that this was not to run on his own head As also that their People could know the Voice of their Church it being in their own Language but not so readily the Voice of the Church of Rome it being in an unknown Tongue for the true Interpretation of which the unlearned depend upon the particular Priest that instructed them I say since the Doctor Publishes what he said to me on this subject he ought to have added what I replyed to him tho' likewise it were but very short for the Reasons already given My Talk was to this purpose viz. That if Men after the use of those Christian means and Ministerial Guides he spoke of were by Gods appointment to follow their own Understandings Those Laws must needs be unjust which punished them for doing so And consequently what could the English Penal Laws have to say for themselves which did not enquire whether Men had used Christian Means and Ministerial Guides or not but punished them for following their own Understandings altho' they should have used ever so many Christian means c. before-hand Neither do Men suffer by these Laws only for Doctrins relating to the Civil Government as perhaps the Doctor would insinuate by what * Pag. 24. follows but for Points meerly Religious such as are Transubstantiation Purgatory Invocation of Saints not going to a Protestant Church c. For all which Points they are punished and this to make the case yet harder by such Men as owning themselves Fallible must likewise own that those Opinions for which they punish may be Truths and Those which they would compel us to embrace Errors for ought they know This Subject is so plain and obvious in it's own Nature and there hath been so much said on it already that I shall only add one word by way of of a Recapitulation which is That on the one side we have the Church of England Teaching us to Judge for our selves in Religious Matters and on the other Hanging us for following her Doctrin If we are to be our own Judges why are we Condemn'd for it And if not why are we Taught to be so Most Religions have their Mysteries and therefore this may be allowed to the Protestants But for my part I can sooner admit that God is able to do more than I am able to understand in the Belief of Transubstantiation than that Men can at once have a just ground for the Approbation and Condemnation of the self-same Proceeding It being easier to dis-believe our Senses when our Creator Commands than to forego our Reason when we have no higher Motive for it than the Will of our Fellow-Creatures I must confess that my Discourse on this Subject at the Conference was not so large as it is here by reason of the shortness of those Interlocutory spaces that were allowed us by the Doctor which seemed to be designed by him not so much for our Speaking as for his own Breathing so that I was forced to cramp what I had to say into a few concise and general Propositions and to throw them out before the Doctor was aware of them Viz. That in case we were not bound by Almighty God to submit our Judgment to any others but presupposing the use of the Doctors Christian means were left to the Guidance of our own Understanding in matters of Faith we ought not to be hindred from or which is the same thing punished for Taking it for our Guide in such matters That the Penal Laws Punished us for so doing and therefore were unjust And the like Which Propositions tho' too brief perhaps for their being thoroughly Comprehended by the Rabble of our Hearers were yet sufficient to let the Doctor know what I meant and consequently for a larger Account of them than what we have from him pa. 24. Viz. Mr. M. took leave and just at the Door Muttered something about Penal Laws In which as the Reader will have found there is no Information either of the nature or of the occasion of that Discourse The matter being so obscurely express'd that a Protestant Gentleman of my acquaintance was so far deceived by the Doctors Terms that he imagined that I had risen up in a heat and threatned something as I went away And therefore for the future when Dr. Tenison shall tell us That he thinks it will give the greater satisfaction to tell the whole Truth That Truth is best Painted at full length and that he will let the World know the whole Truth so far as his Memory with all due helps will serve him as he doth pag. 45. 46 and 50. We will be so civil to him as not to understand him in a Literal Sense Dr. T. says in the place above cited that we are to have the help of all Ministerial Guides possible before we must Judge for our selves Now I suppose that by all Ministerial Guides possible the Doctor does not mean all sorts of Guides True or False First Because the Penal Laws hinder us from conversing with those of other Communions And Secondly Because our Saviour himself Commands us to * Matth. c. 7. v. 15. beware of false Prophets Wherefore I would fain know what mark the Doctor hath to distinguish such Ministerial Guides as may be Addressed to from such as may not If he say that we shall know these Guides by the purity of their Doctrin the only Mark commonly assigned by Protestants as was intimated above for That of the True Church Then it must follow that I must first Judge what Doctrin is Pure before I can know what Guides to have recourse to and consequently I must Judge for my self in the particular * Viz. In the Interpretation of the Scripture Doctrins of Christianity before I use the help of these Ministerial Guides Which according to the Doctor is not to be done The Circle in other Terms and more concisely is thus We cannot know what Doctrin is Pure without Guides And we cannot know what Guides to consult without first knowing what Doctrin is Pure If he shall Name Succession Universality or any thing else for the mark of these Guides then we will consider whether That which is assigned belong to the Church of England or not The Doctor seems to say in the close of his * Pag. 18. Answer which as the Reader will perceive was nothing less than one of his usual Digressions from the Point in hand That their People knew the Voice of their Church and needed not to depend upon the Learning of any Particular Priest for it If so How could the Doctor blame this Apprentice as he doth in his 55th Page for not coming to him with his doubts Would he have him repair to a particular Priest for Instruction whilest he Heard
and Socin Meth. p. 26. Work of his own in these Words Though he the Right Socinian thinks a Doctrin is plain in Scripture yet if he believes it to be against HIS REASON he assents not to it And p. 27. A Man of this Church of England suspects not Reason it self but his own present Art of Reasoning whensoever it concludes against that which he reads and reads without doubting of the Sense of the Words This he lays down for the Difference between the Church of England and the Socinians Hitherto I have taken the Socinians at least for a witty Generation But henceforward if the Doctor 's Character of them be true I must hold them all for Blockheads on pain of being held for one my self For what is it to think a Doctrin plain in * Supposing Scripture to be the Word of God. Scripture but to think it to be revealed by God And consequently what is it not to believe a Doctrin which is thought to be plain in Scripture but not to believe what is thought to be revealed by God And is not this in other terms to suppose that it is possible for God to reveal a Falshood Wherefore if this be the sign of a Right Socinian as the Doctor would have it a Bedlam is fitter for him than an Inquisition But the truth is the Socinians are not such Fools as this Gentleman would make them They do not think the Doctrin they reject to be plain in Scripture Nay before they reject it they conclude it not to be * The Arians and Socinians are so far from thinking the Catholic Doctrin touching the Divinity of our Savior to be plain in Scripture that they think the contrary to be plainly there bringing for in many Texts as My Father is greater than I Joh. 14. 28. and the like which the Doctor knows well enough plain Wherefore in those points wherein they differ from the Catholics what the One understands Literally in the Word of God the Other interprets Mystically or Figuratively And in reference to these Texts they behave themselves no otherwise than the Protestants do towards those Words of our Savior in the Institution of the Blessed Sacrament viz. This is my Body which they will not understand in a Literal Sense Again the Doctor says That a Church-of-England-man suspects not Reason it self but his own present Art of Reasoning I have not time to speculate on the nicety of this Distinction and so I let it pass altho' I believe that a Socinian would be extreme glad to know how he might come to be guided by Reason it self when he suspects his present Art of Reasoning * What causeth a Church-of-England-man to suspect his present Art of Reasoning Is it not his present Art of Reasoning Can Reason guide him without any Reasoning The Doctor seems to be very subtil here Is not the Faculty to be suspected when its Operation is faulty Can the Reason be Perfect and yet the Reasoning which flows from it Defective But whereas the Doctor 's Church-of-England-man suspects his own present Art of Reasoning whensoever it concludes against that which he reads and reads without doubting of the Sense of the Words I dare likewise engage that whatsoever the Right Socinian reads in Scripture without doubting of the Sense of the Words he shall believe as firmly as any Church-of-England-man in the World. This is proved already and if the Doctor think otherwise I shall have cause to suspect if not his Reason yet at least his present Art of Reasoning The Reason why I have examined this Quotation is because it is taken out of a Book which I am recommended to by the Doctor for an Answer to those Questions I would have propos'd to him at the Conference The Readers have my sense * Above p. 73. sequ already concerning the Answering of short Questions and proposed in a Personal Conference by a Reference to long Books which seems to be but the putting off the Trial at best What Encouragement I have from this Quotation to have recourse to that Book in particular out of which it was * But if this he the choice what is the refuse chosen by the Author himself let them Judge For if we may guess at the Stuff by the Pattern they will be able to do it A. P. press'd Writing says the Doctor pag. 60. yet when Dr. T. began to do so he declin'd it The Reader will have * Above p. 67. seq See also Mr. P. 's Acc. p. 10. seq seen that A. P. had a great deal of reason to decline the signing an insignificant Wrangle about the Authority of one single Book which was all the Writing Dr. T. propos'd and that the Doctor had no Reason at all to decline what was propos'd to him viz. the writing of the whole Conference unless it be such as he will be loth to own Whereabouts proceeds Dr. T. would these Disputers Pag. 60. be A while ago they were all for Verbal Conferences when Written ones were offer'd as more safe and useful Now when Verbal Conferences are agreed to Writing is press'd What a pretty Sophism is here Does not Dr. Tenison know whereabouts these Disputers would be Did not those who were all for Verbal or rather Personal Conferences desire that the Argumentative part of such Conferences might be taken in * Viz. for hindring such after misrepresentations as we have had from our Dr. as I said before pa. 61. Writing and that nothing else might be published as Authentic but what was so written And were not Conferences so managed viz. Personally and by Writing * See the above-mentioned Letter to Dr. E. S. p. 26. seq preferr'd before the carrying on of a Disputation by Books and not Verbal Conferences as the Doctor insinuates before Written ones Was the Doctor ignorant of this I do not think he was But a pretended Mistake is an excellent Instrument in the hand of a Controvertist It serves to deceive his own Party and at least to make Work for his Adversaries And now I would not have the Sense of what I have said here or elsewhere on this Subject so far mistaken as that I should be thought to look on such Personal and Written Conferences as infallible means of deciding Controversies whereas I only prefer this way of proceeding in them before that of writing Books I know there is nothing of this Nature which some time or other is not liable to the underminings of Craft and therefore as far as I have been able to observe when such kind of Conferences are obtained which is only where they cannot be kept off with any credit the Protestants either refuse to dispute of the Main Points such as the Rule of Faith the Proof of Scripture or the like and fall on some other Branch where as I have said before there is more room for disputing unless the matter be soon brought to the Rule of
Faith as it may and indeed ought to be Or else if they admit of any such Point they endeavor to spend the time in Preliminaries so that they may be forced to break off before any Argument comes to bear All the Written Conferences that I have heard of which have not been above two or three have been of this sort However the Truth of what passes at a Conference is better known by this means and the shuffling on which side soever it shall happen to be more discernible Besides I never knew that any of these Conferences were followed by Noise tho' the Copies of them have been distributed through many hands All things have been hush'd and no contradictory Narratives have come abroad to the dividing rather than satisfying the World Excepting only Dr. St.'s Conference with Mr. G. where Mr. G.'s Amanuensis happening to take away his Copy without comparing it with Dr. St.'s there chanced to be a small difference between those Copies which Mr. G. dispersed and that which the Doctor retained and from this trivial Over-sight to say the utmost of it Dr. St. took a pretence to accuse Mr. G. of Insincerity and to refuse the meeting with him any more But this as is evident may easily be prevented and Mr. G. himself did it afterwards viz. by trusting the Protestants themselves to write both his part and their own 〈◊〉 then taking his Copies from them So far was he from desiring that any Forgery 〈◊〉 the least Falsification should be in such Copies And after these Conferences as I have said we have been very quiet And certainly if there were no other convenience in Writing This alone were enough to render it desirable And as for the Conferences themselves tho' as I have said there is care taken to spend the time which the Writing also helps to do in useless Discourses yet after the first or second Meeting when all the loose Earth shall be digg'd away in order to a Foundation it is probable that somewhat may be built But the worst of the matter is that for the most part we are careful to take such Exceptions at the First Meeting as may justifie our refusal of a Second He says pag. 64. Mr. M. stay'd much longer viz. than what Mr. P. mentions for he began to write on the back of Dr. T. 's Paper This writing was not till after I had retir'd from Dr. T. and Mr. P. and came back again to them according to what I have related above And this may be farther proved from what the Schoolmaster says in his 9th page viz. When the Question of How the Protestants could tell that the Bible they used was really what they the Protestants thought it to be the Word of God had been canvass'd some while Mr. M. arising went to the other end of the Room c. Now this Question was at the beginning of the Conference as appears by Dr. Tenison's own Narrative whereas the writing was not till after the Question of Transubstantiation had been started He goes on And he Mr. M. removed upon a Gentlewomans coming to him with a Masque in her hand which gave occasion to another of that 〈◊〉 to say to Mr. M. He chose to dispute rather with Ladies than Doctors I acquainted my Readers in my 5th page That not long after the beginning of our Disputation a Catholic Gentlewoman advis'd me to withdraw from it But really whether she had a Masque in her hand or not I cannot tell and therefore herein I must yield to the Doctor and confess that He is the more curious Observer of Ladies of the two Neither did she come then into the Conference as the Doctor seems to express it but had been there for some time for she had observed that Dr. Tenison took the advantage of my being near him to turn frequently from Mr. P. to me and * Above pa. 5. so vice versâ from Me to Him by which means the Prosecution of the Arguments was hindred And it was for this reason as she told me and also that the Doctor might not have a false pretence of his contending with two at once that she desired me to retire according to the account I have given of this matter in the afore-cited place It was not therefore to avoid disputing with Dr. Tenison as the Doctor 's Lady surmized for it seems there were Ladies on both sides that I withdrew but it was that the Doctor might not avoid disputing with Mr. P. And if I am not mistaken I was then talking with the Schoolmaster when this Witticism recorded by the Doctor was spoken There was a second Gentlewoman who joyn'd with this in the same Advice but neither of them spoke before Mr. P. had desir'd me of his own accord to leave the Disputation tho' the Doctor seems here to suppose the contrary The Doctor takes occasion in several places of his Book to give us to understand that the foremention'd Apprentice was much chang'd in Humor and Countenance after his Conversion and particularly that he seem'd often as if he were * Pag. 2. mop'd And Dr. Hornec seems to concur with him in this account We know what kind of Spectacles Love and Hatred are to look through and how much for the most part they impose upon our Fancies Certainly the Boy 's * smiling at Dr. H.'s pretending to Succession was no sign of Stupidity the wisest man in the World Pag. 79. in Dr. H. 's Letter might have been guilty of some Laughter on that occasion But for my own part that which I think most worth the smiling at in this passage is that Dr. H. makes no bones of proving this Succession whereas Dr. T. said at the Conference that it could not be done under Ten Thousand Pounds worth of Books Something says Dr. H. I dropt * I suppose it was accidentally Succession being a Point which of their good will they seldom mention accidentally about Succession which he laid hold of and with a kind of scornful smile demanded What Succession we could shew I told him both for Men and Doctrin and Prov'd it to him How light does this Doctor make of that which is such a Bugbear to the other It is much that Dr. Tenison had not learnt that Receipt of proving a Succession of Protestants from his Brother before his Publication of the Conference that so he might not have put us off in a Question of so much Importance with * Pag 13. Despair instead of Satisfaction And therefore I am apt to think that Dr. T. gave not much credit to this part of Dr. H.'s Letter whatever he did to the rest There is but one way that I know of reconciling these two Doctors and that is by laying it down as a Principle That there are Two ways of Manifesting a Protestant Succession One is by shewing Societies or Persons in all Ages who have openly professed the Doctrin of the Church of England And this I presume