and not the Church by the Ministers The next thing to be considered in this your Reason is your peremptory affirmation but grounded upon no Scripture namely That to set up Independant and separated Churches is a Schisme in it selfe and that it will make great disturbance in the Church both to the outward peace and to the faith and conscience of the people of the Kingdome Now that it is a Schisme in it selfe I deny and prove the contrary thus God hath commanded all his people to separate themselves from all Idolatry c and false worshipping d and false worshippers e and therefore it is no Schisme except you will make God the Author of Schisme this is according to the Prophet Esaiahs words Esay 1. which is the first Lesson that every one ought to learne even to cease to doe evill But I hope it will not be denied but that they are to learne another lesson which is to learne to doe well but to doe well is to keepe all Gods Commandements and to obey God rather then men Now Gods commands to his people is that they learne to know the forme of the house as I have told you before and all the Ordinances of the house and to doe them Ezek. 43. 11. but the Ordinances of Christs Kingdome under the Gospell amongst the rest are Doctrine Fellowship breaking of Bread and Prayer which Ordinances the Saints continued stedfastly in and are commended for their constancie in the same Acts 2. 42 and that in every particular Church or Congregation though there were divers in one Nation and yet I hope you will not affirme it was any disturbance to the Nation otherwise thâ—n Christ hath shewed shall ever be that the seed of the Serpent shall persecute the seede of the Woman for Gods people are said to be a peaceable people and the Lord himself hath said that he hath set them in the world as Lambs among Wolves Now there must needs be a disagreement betweene Lambes and Wolves but the Lambes are not the cause thereof By this you may see that Separation is not a Scisme but obedience to Gods Commandement And for any Magistrate to give way for men to separate from the worship of the Kingdome established by Law if that worship be not according to Gods Law is the Magistrates duty and the Magistrate shall partake of no sinne in so doing because there is no sinne committed Therefore the Magistrate ought not to forbid the practise of Gods Worship when hee hath power to command it for he is set up for the practise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill â—oers And therefore you did well when you admonished the Parliament in your Epistle to cast out of the way all stambling blockes and to breake downe all Images and Crucifixes and to throw downe all 〈◊〉 and remove the High places and to breake to pieces the brazen Serpents which have beene so abused to Idolatry and Superstition So then you grant that much may be done as it seemeth by your speech and yet if there be not a full reformation even to the throwing downe of the High places it will prove a blemish to the reformers You say he that doth not forbid when he hath power he commands But I hope you doubt not but the Parliament hath power and therefore whatsoever they doe not forbid by your owne ground they have or doe command But in the Protestation they have not forbidden Gods Worship which is according to his Word but they have Protested and have injoyned others so to doe to maintaine and â—â—â—end the Protestant Religion expressed in the Doctrine of the Church of England against all Popery and Popish Innovations within this Realme c. And in the Interpretation of their meaning of the said Oath they binde us neither to the â—â—t forme of Worship Discipline or Government nor any Rites or Ceremonies of the said Church of England Now if we must withstand Popery and Popish Innovations then we must needs withstand such dependencie as makes up a whole Nation a Church both good and bad without separating the precious from the vile and also such Synods or Counsels that decree and make Lawes and impose them upon any Church to keepe having not the Word of God to warrant them for these are Popish Innovations and to be withstood by us according to our Oath And truely Mr. Edwards you might have asked the independant Ministers a question in private for you knew where to finde them and not have propounded so silly a question before the Parliament when there was none there to answer you Your Question is Whether it be fitting that well meaning Christians should be suffered to goe to make Churches To this I Answer It is fitter for well meaning Christians than for ill-meaning Christians for well-meaning Christians be the fittest on the earth to make Churches and to choose their Officers whether they be Taylors Felt-makers Button-makers Tent-makers Shepherds or Ploughmen or what honest Trade soever if they are well-meaning Christians but ill-meaning Priests are very unfit men to make Churches because what they build up with one hand they pull downe with the other Futuher you seeme to feare the sâ—reading of Heresies if there be not a biâ—drance of these Assemblies But you should rather feare that your owne glory would be eclipsed by their gifts and graces for they are not men of so meane parts as you would make them but are able to divide the Word of God aright by the spirit that God hath given them Therefore I would wish you rather to let your heart bleed for your selfe and for the evills that you have done For Christ will never suffer any to perish for whom he died Thus much for your first Reason IN your second Reason you say the Toleration desired will not helpe to beale the Schismes and Rents of your Church To which I answer that if your Church be not the Church of Christ it will not heale it indeede for though the Prophets would have healed Babel it could not be healed You say that Ministers and people will not submit to the Reformation and Government setled by Law It is very like so if it be not free from Innovations of Popery because they are sworne to the contrary But you say many doubts will arise in the peoples mindes that the Government of your Church is not ordered according to the Word of God To this I answer If you meane the Church of Englands Government established by the Canon Law I thinke it is out of doubt with the most for they that understand but little doe see and know that that Government is vaine and Popish and that is the reason as I conceive why so many refuse to conforme to it and if you feare that that will prove so great a division you may doe well to counsell the Magistrates to expell all such Government and to reject all such Synods and
all his commandements and who hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible Saints and what makes men visible Saints if not the manifestation of their obedience to God the Father and Christ his sonne in the practise of all his Ordinances and not to have some other Presbyters present with them to assist them as you affirme for by these other Presbyters I know not yet who you meane And whereas you say that the Church may be led into errours or kept in a low estate by unfit Pastors and Elders I answer It is a cleare truth as wofull experience teacheth us who live here in the Land of England And whereas you affirme that visible Saints cannot ordaine Officers because they have no gifts of prayer I Answer Here you make prayer the Ordination of Ministers And whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer Here you give the holy Ghost the lie for Beleevers have received the Spirit of adoption to cry Abba Father But say you they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in boâ—â— Here you would seeme to make beleevers which have the Spirit of God to leade them into all truths more voide of common reason then men that have but gifts of nature Againe you say they have not gifts to make publike exhortation and admonition To which I answer If they had first knowledge to feele the want of a Pastor and also divers able men out of whom to elect and ordaine a Pastor then they out of whom this person is chosen are able to exhort and to admonish for he that hath not the gift of teaching may have the gift of exhortation againe the man that undertaketh to teach others ought to be taught by God and likewise to be able by sound Doctrine to withstand the Gainesayers but a man may give good exhortations and that publikely that is not able to withstand the Gainesayers by â—ound Doctrine By this you may see the Church of God can never be without some Ministers except it be according to that spoken by Zachaâ—iah in the day of very small things indeede when God shall take away their Ministers by death prison or exile for seeing the Churches were planted by Ministers of Gods owne ordaining therefore they were not without Ministers in the very beginning and still the Churches are planted by the Ministeriall power of the Lord Jesus which cannot be exercised without fit instruments Yet that they must want the word preached or Sacraments administred till they have Pastors and Teacher in Office is yet to be proved but that page of Mr. Robinsons which hath beene alledged before is sufficient for this present purpose against you even to prove that the family must not be unprovided for either for the absence or neglect of a Steward But now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation or a supposition I cannot well tell whether That a ruleing Elder may be destitute of the guift of discering and seeme to imply that if he be destitute then all the Church must be destitute if there be no more Officers then be Here you would faine make the ruling Elders the eyes of the Church and then all the rest of the body must be blinde and so unfit to have any hand in election and also voide of the Spirit of Grace to discerne the gifts by though it hath beene proved unto you before that she is the greatest of all having the Spirit of God to leade her into all truth being the Spouse of Christ and endowed with all his riches gifts and donations And thus you still deny the Authority ability of the Church giving to the persons in office all power and deserning But this is indeede according to your practise here in England but not according to the minde and Spirit of God And for the neighbour Churches Counsell I deny not but that it may be imbraced and the Saints have cause to praise God for any helpes of Gods ordaining But if they want the helpe of a neighbour Church to Counsell them or neighbour Ministers to direct them yet if they be a Church of Jesus Christ they have as hath beene said before power among themselves to elect and ordaine their owne Officers as also the Spirit of discerning whereby to try their gifts and yet be farre from falling into that evill which they complaine against in the Episcopacie namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination By all these particulars you may clearely see all your pretended proofes and former assertions disproved as I promised you in the entrance of this my answer to your second Reason So that these two first Reasons being as I conceive the greatest Champions which you have sent out in this skirmage are now both slaine and made voide of all the life that ever was in them for they were made most of suppositions and of things that appeared unto you by likelihood without any ground from the Scriptures and of some other thing than Gods Word allowed and of some triviall affirmations which were not grounded upon any truth of Gods Word Now these two being thus turned aside by one of the meanest of all the Army of Jesus Christ you may justly feare that all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded IN your third Reason You say it is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a Government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged Which thing I grant to be very true but touching the means and helpes which you pleade for that is some other Synods to appeale unto I tell you I know not what Synods you meane But this I affirme that there are no larger Synods to be kept to settle Church differences then the comming together of the Ministers and Brethren as it is mentioned in the 15th of the Acts which I have granted you in my Answers to your former Reasons And whereas you strive for appeales I Answer It is the rule of Christ that if one brother doe trespasse against another and if the brother offending will not be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him but if he will not heare them the brother offended is to tell the Church and if he will not heare the Church then he is not to be accounted a brother but as a Heathen man and a Publican if not as a brother then out of the fellowship then if the wrong be any personall injury as oppression or fraud or any other sinne of these natures the Law is open where he may appeale for Justice to the Magistrate in any part of the Kingdome where-ever he liveth but if it be a matter of scandall as if hee should be a drunkard or incontinent or the like then he hath sufficient remedy when such a one is cast out of his society By this you may see
Counsells and to labour to understand the minde of God and to set up his Government over Beleevers in the Kingdome of England And whereas you say that many of the people who yet be not in this Church way are possessed with these principles of the Independant way and much looking towards it I say it is pitty they should any longer be led about by the way of the Wildernesse 2. You doe affirme that the mindes of multitudes of Professors in England and especially in the City of London are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or discipline that is not commonly received by the Church I answer Indeede the Proverbe is verified upon them The burned child dreads the fire for they have beene so long deceived by your false glosses that now their eyes being a little open the light appeareth very sweete unto them yea although they see men but like trees as the blinde man when his eyes began to be opened who had beene blinde from his birth The third thing which you have laid downe in this Reason is That the Ministers will not be tied from preaching those points in publike nor from speaking of them in private To which I answer I hope they will not indeed for it were their great sinne if they should not declare Gods whole Councell so farre as he hath revealed it unto them But if they would you say the people both men and women are sâ— strangely bold and pragmaticall and so highly conceited of their way as the Kingdome of Christ and the onely way of Christ that out of those principles they would be drawing many of their friendship and kindred and many would say you come unto them I answer that this I hope you count a vertue for it is the property of the Sheepe when they fare well to call their fellowes But Hogges will not doe so The fourth thing to be minded is that you say Liberty the power of government and rule to be in the people are mighty pleasing to flesh and blood especially in meane persons and such as have beene kept under To which I answer that they that have beene kept under have beene kept under by the tyranny of the Man of Sinne This you confesse to be especially the poore upon whom those Taskemasters have laid the greatest burthens Therefore for them to affect liberty is no wonder And whereas you say they would have the power and Rule I answer It is not any power or Rule which is pleasing to the flesh as you speake thinking them to be like those Priests Whose god is their belly whose glory is their shame who minde earthly things but it is the power of Christ which they stand for as they are members of the Churches of Christ to which Churches Christ the King thereof hath given all power in spirituall things And that the Church of Christ consisteth of meane persons is no wonder for wee have learned that the poore receive the Gospell and you know you have granted that it stands with the light and Law of Nature That the liberty power and rule should be in the whole and not in one man or a few so that the power must rest in the body and not in the Officers though the Church be never so poore Now the fifth thing you minde in this Reason is That Tolleration will be made use of to strengthen their way And you also conclude it will be granted that the ablest Ministers could not answer them and therefore were content they should have a Tolleration You doe very well to feare the worst but you had done better if you had armed your selfe against them and answered the Scriptures they bring by Scripture But it is a plaine case you could not do that therfore your feare was just but if you were a wellminded man or a wellmeaning Christian man you should not have feared the comming of the truth to light nor have been afraid of reformation because it would worke to your greater divisions and rents for Christ came not to set peace upon the earth as I have told you before but the seede of the Serpent will be ever playing his part Thus much for your second Reason IN your third Reason you affirme That Tolleration will breed divisions and Schismes disturbing the peace and quiet of Churches and Townes I answer I have told you already we plead for no tolleration that shall disturbe the peace of Churches or Townes Moreover you say it will not onely doe so but it will also breed divisions in families betweene husband and wife brother and brother To which I answer There was a division in the first Family that ever was and brother rose up against brother but Tolleration was not the cause of it but the malice of Sathan in the seed of the Serpent as it hath beene and is now at this day And this is according to Christs words Luke 12. 52 53. which saith That there shall be five in one house two against three and three against two c. and in Matth. 10. 34 35 36. Thinke not saith he that I come to send peace into the earth I came not to send peace but the sword For I am come to set a man at variance against his father and the daughter against her mother and the daughter in Law against her mother in Law and a mans enemies shall be they of his owne household and moreover in Luke 21. 16. our Saviour doth declare that we shall be betrayed both by parents and brethren and kinssolkes and friends Now if Christ may be said to be the Author of evill then you may say that Toleration of true Religion is the cause of this division Againe you say O how this will occasion disobedience To this your Lamentation I answer O that you would remember the rule * that every servant ought to count his Master worthy of all honour and in the judgement of charitie beleeve that persons professing the Gospel will learne that lesson Next you say O! how will this take away that power authority which God hath given to Husbands Fathers and Masters over wives children and servants To this I answer O! that you would consider the text in 1 Cor. 7. which plainly declares that the wife may be a beleever the husband an unbeleever but if you have considered this text I pray you tell me what authority this unbeleeving husband hath over the conscience of his beleeving wife It is true he hath authority over her in bodily and civill respects but not to be a Lord over her conscience and the like may be said of fathers and masters and it is the very same authority which the Soveraigne hath over all his subjects therfore it must needes reach to families for it is granted that the King hath power according to the Law over the bodies goods and lives of all his subjects yet it is Christ the King of Kings that reigneth over their
to pray for the Kingdome of God to come we are not to limit it to this that Christ may come to rule in us onely but that-he may rule as a King in the heart of all his chosen Neither ought wee alone to acknowledge praises but wee ought to desire that prayses to God may be acknowledged by others also and that they may grant the Kingdome and power and glory to be his not that he should be a King onely to rule in the hearts of men but also that he may rule and governe the actions of the bodies of men in his outward worship as we are commanded to glorifie God with our bodies and soules and the reason is because they are his 1 Cor. 6. 20. Now if our bodies and soules be Gods then it must needs be granted that it is in spirituall worship for in all civill things it hath beene acknowledged already that both bodies and lives are our soveraigne Lord the Kings in whose Land we dwell Now if there were any forme of prayer for men to bind themselves unto it would have beene shewed either in this Scripture or in some other which thing you have not yet proved That they were not tied to this forme of words is plaine by another Evangelist which doth not use the same words but addeth some and leaveth out other some and also the whole forme of thankesgiving is left out by Luke Luke 11. 2. 3. 4. Compared with Matth. 6. 9. and to seeke the helpe of any booke but the Bible to teach men to pray is to disable God which hath promised to give Beleevers his Spirit whereby they shall cry Abba Father c and that that Spirit should leade them into all truth and bring all things to their remembrance d Therefore a forme of prayer for men to tie themselves unto cannot be sufficient and pleasing to God though it were never imposed by any Thirdly you lay another slander upon us as though we should affirme that Christian Princes and Magistrates who are defenders of the Faith have no more to doe in and about the Church then Heathen Princes This is not true for we know that Christian Princes and Magistrates ought to be members of Christs Church and so being they may be Officers in the Church And if they be Defenders of the Faith they be such as defend the pure worship of God manifested in his Word as also the true professors thereof and that against all tyrannicall power that shall attempt to suppresse either it or them as the good Kings of Judah and Israel did by slaying the Servants and Prophets of Baal who had slaine the Lords people But Heathen Kings cannot be said to be members of the Church of Christ before they know Christ and then they become Christian Kings Therefore to vent upon all occasions such principles as you see wee hold and maintaine is not as you say dangerous and insufferable neither are the people But you say further that the people for a great part of them are heady and refractory and proud and bitter and scornfull and dispisers of authoritie and that they will not suffer publike prayers to be prayed but that by their gesture and threatning of the Ministers they have laboured to hinder the use of them And these people I gather from your owne words are the professors in England and especially in the city of London and it is very like to be so because they were there at the time of your service for neither the Separates nor Semiseparates as you call them use to be there at the time of your service for ought I know and these Professors you have also called Idle busibodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton in their wits say you affecting novelties in Religion and liking of points that are not established nor commonly held and these you say are many of the professors * And in your second Reason against Toleration Pag. 24. you say that the mindes of multitudes of the Professors in England and especially in this citie are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or Discipline that is not commonly received by the Church c. But I tel you you ought not to blame any for withstanding any thing in Gods worship which is not grounded in his Word Neither if the whole body of the worship there tendred be the invention of man ought any of them to be blamed for opposing such a worship because it is according to their Protestation Yet I justifie none that will oppose disorderly as either by casting up of hats or threatning the Minister or any the like unseemely behaviour for I judge it better for them to depart in peace if they have not faith in the action performed But methinkes Mr. Edwards you have foulely missed it in that you have thus vilified your brethren to call them by the names of those mockers which Paul testified should come in the last time that should be heady and high minded and proud boasters and dispisers of authority for such as these have not the power of godlinesse and by this you make your Church a foule Church and defile shrewdly your owne nest and make it appeare to all men that you live in a Cage of uncleane birds therefore you are commanded from such to turne aside * if the feare of God be in your heart Moreover You say you feare they will not tolerate the Government established by the Ecclesiasticall and civill Lawes and you would faine father the cause of this your feare upon Separates and Independancie whereas you cannot be so ignorant but that you must know that the government established by Law may stand without the leave of Separates for they have neither power to give toleration nor to prohibit toleration for or against any thing But you say you would rather pray against toleration than prophesie of the wofull effeâ—ts of it I answer if you can make such a prayer in a time acceptable then sometimes such prayers will be accepted which are not grounded upon Gods Word But of the wofullest effects of toleration you have prophesied already in that you say they will withstand your Doctrine and your dues * and that will be a wofull effect indeede when you shall be driven to cry out Alas alas that great city Babylon for in one houre is so great wealth come to desolation Thus much for your Seventh Reason IN your Eight Reason you affirme That these Independant men where they have power as in New-England will not tolerate any Churches or Government but in their owne way In using the word these you carry the matter so darkely that I know not whom you meane for you have named none But you seeme to say they be men that have power in New England I answer Indeede it may happen to be so That there may be some men there that take upon them authority to binde mens consciences
and though it be not in exsise for victuals yet it is in some other wayes from which the subjects of Holland are freed The next thing you affirme is That your riches and strength standeth in one way of Religion To which I answer I thinke if I could understand your minde herein you meane the riches and strength of the Priests for I am sure the riches and strength of the Kingdome may stand best with Toleration as it may appeare partly by what hath been said already for you have heard that the Lords people whom you thus persecute maintaine their owne poore And it will also be made appeare that they pay Scot and Lot in the Kingdome in all civill respects and are all as true subjects to the Kings Majesty and are ready to doe him all faithfull service with their bodies and estates as any in the Kingdome But I confesse that toleration would be neither riches nor strength to the Priests for it is sore against the peoples will that they pay them any thing now and it will be no wonder when it shall be made to appeare what the Priests wages iâ— * but that shall be done hereafter THeir third Reason you say is That if they have not liberty to erect some Congregations it will force them to leave the Kingdome For answer whereof you doe affirme in the first place that there is no neede of a toleration for them neither that they should leave the Kingdome for conscience and that you say will appeare by the Reasons and principles which they doe agree to which you say are these First that they hold your Churches true your Ministers true Ordinances true Further you say they can partake with you in your Congregations in all Ordinances even to the Lords Supper To which I answer Indeede here you would make the Readers beleeve that they had opened a wide gappe if they should take your affirmation without your provisall but you come to helpe your selfe handsomely in that you say their condition was that it must first be provided that scandalous and ignorant persons must be kept backe and Cerimonies must be removed Methinks this is a mighty great mountaine that stands between them and you and therefore you have small cause to aske them wherfore they should desire to set up Churches fortill this mountaine be removed they may be true to their own principles and not go from their word and yet never communicate with you either in worship or government For first If you keepe out all scandalous persons out of all the Churches in England from the Sacraments and all ignorant persons truely then your Churches will be as emptie as ours Secondly If you should remove away all your Ceremonies which is the second part of your reformation you could not tell how to worship for your whole forme and manner of worship is made of invented Ceremonies But if you can procure such a reformation to have your Church all consist of persons of knowledge fearing God and â—ating covetousnesse void of all other scandalls so far as we can judge by the Scripture and that the Ceremonies may be removed and we enjoy as you bragge all Gods Ordinances with you as well as in our owne Churches then you shall heare what I will say to you as well as the Independant men But till all this be done you see there is still good reason for good men either to desire liberty or to leave the Kingdome Further you say some of them could take the charge of Parochiall Churches amongst you upon the Reformation I Answer Indeede such a Reformation which you have formerly mentioned will hardly stand with Parochiall Churches But you say they could yeeld to Presbyteriall Government by Classes and Synods so they might not be injoyned to submit to it as Jure Divino To which I answer It seemes by your owne confession that they doe deny the Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be from God as it appeares in that you say they will not submit to it as Iure Divino and therefore you have overthrowne your selfe in all this your reasoning with your Synods and Classes also so that still there remaines good grounds to seeke a Toleration that the Saints may grow into bodies even in this Land But to grow into one body with you as you would have them while your Churches body is like a Leopard and all bespotted as appeares by your words were very absurd for you â—â—â—e affirme that the best of your members even the Professors especially of London and of the great Townes in England are very fâ—â—le yet I hope you will confesse that they are the best of your members then if it be true as you say that you must remove in your Reformation all ignorant and scandalous persons by your grounds you should have but a very few to make a Church of as well as wee For you must remove also all your Professors which you say are so scandalous Therefore I should rather counsell you to repent of all your evills that you have done and be reconciled to God the Father and Christ his Sonne and separate your selves from all your wickednesse and even come and grow up into one body with us Secondly you say Seeing your Churches Ministers and Ordinances be true the erecting of new and withdrawing from such Congregations can never be answered to God I answer Here you take for granted that which you cannot prove and it is your wisdome so to doe for by that meanes you may make simple people beleeve that you are very right except a few defects which no man shall be freed from while he is in this life But now to the point and first touching your Churches and Ministers which you say be true and you also say the Independant men would grant them to be true upon a Reformation such as the Word requires I tell you for answer that this your juggling will not helpe you for no man is bound to take your bare word therefore it is good you make proofe of that which you have said But before you goe to prove your Churches true declare unto me what Churches you meane for I ever tooke the whole Land of England to be but one Church as it stands established by the Canon Laws and that all the Parishes in the Land make up but one entire body therefore what is amisse in one Parish all the whole are guilty of and it will be laid to the charge of the Archbishops who are the Metropolitanes or chiefe Priests over the Church of the Land Seeing it is so you must stand out to maintaine your Church and you neede not to trouble your selfe about your Church-es for I know no dependancie you have upon any except it be Rome according as I have told you before in the conclusion of my answer to your first tenth Reason against Independencie Therefore this is the Church that you must maintaine even the Church of England established
consciences and thus you may see it taketh away no authority which God hath given to them The next thing you say is that they cannot be certaine that their servants and children sanctifie the Lords day To which I answer that indeede unbeleeving Masters take as little care of this as they that have given liberty to prophane the Lords Day but beleeving Parents and Masters may easily know if their children or servants be of any Congregation what their life and conversation is and therefore this can hinder no duties or workes of Families as you falsely affirme nor crosse the good and peace of Familes By this you may see that this your groundlesse affirmation is no good Reason against Toleration And therefore the Court of Parliament to whom you submit for judgement may easily see that good members both for Churches and Common-wealths may issue out of such Families that live under Christs government and that such Families may be good Nurseries both for Church and Common-wealth Thus much for your third Reason IN your fourth Reason you doe affirme that there will be great danger of disputes amongst you about Government and Worship and Doctrine and practises in the Conclusion you say it will be about a question where Saints goe when they die whether to heaven or a third place I Answer This is a question I never heard amongst the Separates or any of those whom you call Independant men but amongst the Papists of Rome and England The next thing is about sitting with hats on to breake bread I Answer this may be a question indeed but not to breede division for it may be as lawfull for one man to sit covered another uncovered as it may be lawfull for one man to receive it sitting and another lying in bed But if any man list to be contentious the Churches of God have no such custome Thus much for your Fourth Reason IN your fifth Reason you affirme that the Ministers of the Kingdome can have little assurance of the continuance of their flockes to them if such a toleration be granted but that the tolerated Churches will admit them into fellowship and increase Churches out of their labours and that they should doe little else but spend and be spent To this I answer that if you were the Ministers of Christ as you would be taken to be it might be your comfort joy and glory for it was the Apostles worke to gather the Saints and to travell in birth of children and they did not grudge that they were added unto the Churches of Christ but tooke care for them being so added for the care of all Churches lay upon them and therefore they were as Fathers and Nurses unto them and the Gospell admits of no such theft as to steale away members from other Churches but if men draw neere to the truth which never were members of any Church and offer themselves to joyne unto us we may admit them upon good experience of their life and conversation for those members that travelled from one Church to another were commended unto those Churches by Letters from the Church where they were members or else they could not have beene admitted and thus you may see the way of the Gospell admits of no such disorder Now whereas you say that this Toleration upon any light occasion of demanding dues or preaching against any thing they like not opens a wide doore and will invite them to disert their Ministers I answer by demanding of that which you call dues you may indeede give just occasion for you may demand for due that which is not due as all the Priests of England doe Likewise by preaching of Doctrine you may give just occasion if you justifie the wicked and condemne the just and make sad the hearts of those whom God would not have made sad and then if your people flye from you you may thanke your selves but concerning what you count to be your due I will declare hereafter * Thus much for your fifth Reason NOw in the beginning of your sixth Reason you say that liberty will be an undoubted meanes and way of their infinite multiplication and increase even to thirty fould Truely I thinke you are afraid as Pharaoh was least the Lords people should grow mightier then you Next you say if the Parliament could like to have more of the breede of them and have a delight to have multitudes exempted from the Ecclesiasticall Lawes of the Land c. I answer it is no disgrace to the Parliament if they should so delight though never Parliament before had done the like Moreover you say they have increased within this nine moneths without a toleration therefore you conclude they would multiply much if they had a toleration in many if not in most Townes and Parishes and â—ou say it cannot be helped All this I grant may be although they have not a Toleration I thinke they will increase for the Taskemasters can lay no heavier burthens upon them then they have laid already but though they should increase it will not be unprofitable for the increase of beleevers will be the strength and glory of the Kingdome for they will in all lawfull things be subject to the Kings Majestie their dread Soveraigne and to all the wholesome Lawes of his Land and therefore it will be no danger to have as you say swarmes of them Thus much for your Sixth Reason IN your 7th Reason you affirme that it will be very preâ—udiciall dangerous and insufferable to this Kingdome for Saints two or three or more to gather and combine themselves in Church Fellowship having one â—â— power from Christ their immediate heade without expecting warrant from any Governors First whereas you say it will be prejudiciall I answer It can prejudice none in the Kingdome except it be the Priests and it will be but of a little tithes which they dare not in conscience pay because those Iewish Ceremonies are ceased and if they have not Toleration that will be all one in that respect for they will rather suffer then doe any thing against conscience Now whereas you say it will be dangerous and insufferable to the Kingdome both these I deny for if they were offensive people two or three or a few could doe but little hurt But they have beene proved to be a peaceable people and the suffering of such hath never beene dangerous to any Nation but the not suffering of such to live quietly in a Land or to passe quietly thorow a land hath brought Judgements upon such Lands Now whereas you seeme to imply that they should aske leave of the Magistrate to gather and combine themselves into visible Churches c. I answer I doe not reade that any ever asked leave of the Magistrate for such a thing nor to performe any of the parts of Gods Worship or Discipline and yet you confesse that these independant men doe petition to the Parliament for liberty * Now I pray
by the Canon Laws consisting of Archbishops Diocesan Bishops with all the rest of that erew for this is indeed both your Church and Ministry which doth appeare by your owne ground because you affirme that in this part lieth all the power but by your owne grounds the whole body of the Land I meane of the Laitie as you call them hath no power at all to reforme any abuse therfore this Clergy must needs be your Church and thus you make your selves the head and body and all the rest of the Land the â—ayle to follow after you Now if you can prove this to be a true Church which hath neither ground nor footing in Christs Testament you will worke wonders but indeede such wonders have been wrought by you for all the world hath wondered and runne after the beast saying Who is like unto him and who is able to make warre with him as you may plainely see in the 13. of the Reveation Therefore they that doe justifie such a Church are such as have beene deceived by her false miracles even by the fire which she hath made to come downe from heaven I pray you did not fire come downe from heaven in Queene Maries time and devour the Saints in Smithfield if you understand heaven in that place as I understand it to be the seate of the Magistrate you must grant the same for they are called Gods and the children of the most high For your forefathers did as Pilaâ— did wash their hands from the blood of the Saints and of the innocent and turned them over for their sentence of condemnation to the Secular power which you made your hornes and your heads pushed them forward to execute your bloody cruelty and thus you may see that fire came downe from heaven in the sight or apprehension of men for most that beheld it thought it was just because it was the sentence of the Magistrate And by this all men may see that you of the Clergie are the Church of England and that this Clergy came from Rome and that therefore your Church is derived from Rome Now if you would know whence the Church of Rome was derived I conceive that her power was derived from the beast with seven heads which rose up out of the sea as you may read of in the thirteenth of the Revelations for there both those beasts are mentioned and also the Image of the first beast which the second beast hath caused to be made which is even here in England amongst us and you may see I have proved unto you already what it is as you may also read in the 15. verse of that Chapter it was that to whom the beast gave a spirit and also he gave it power that it should speake and cause as many as would not worship the Image of the beast to be killed and hath not this Image caused aboundance to be killed in England and hath not he caused all to receive his marke or his name or the number of his name and they that have it not may neither buy nor sell as it is apparant by the testimonie of the Scripture it selfe and wofull experience And is not this Image the Church that now you â—leade for which consisteth of all the Priests of England if it be not I pray you tell me what it is But if this be it as it appeares it is then these are your Ministers also and then it hath beene proved plainely whence this your Church and Ministry came And that any of understanding should grant this Church and Ministry to be a true Church and Ministery would bewray great ignorance in them Further you adde that they acknowledge the Ordinances to be true In this I doe beleeve you upon your bare word for it is a truth if you meane Gods Ordinances which you have amongst you As first you have the Scripture but you wring it and wrest it according to your owne devices and make of it a nose of waxe and a leaden rule to leane which way your minde leadeth you and though you ought to take that reede or rod in your hand at all times if you were Gods messengers to measure both the Temple and the Altar and the worshippers Rev. 11. 2 yet you have not learned that skill for your Church and Ministrie holdeth no correspondencie with that measuring line but contrariwise you have taken that golden cup and filled it full of abominations â—ay you have hacked it and mangled it to peeces and made it into little lessons which you call your Epistles and Gospells they are Dedicated to your Saints upon your Saints-Dayes and thus you may see though you have the Scriptures which is the Word of God and take upon you to unfold the mysteries thereof yet in stead of that you darken the truth by false glosses Secondly you have the Sacraments even baptisme and breaking of breade but you pervert them both to your owne destruction neverthelesse they still remaine Gods Ordinances even as the golden vessells were Gods vessels when they were in Babel though Belsâ—azar made them his quaâ—â—ing boules yet still they remained to be Gods vessels Even so did Circumcision remaine Gods Ordinance though it was with Ieroboâ—â— The like may be said of Baptisme it still remaines Gods Ordinance though it be carried away with backâ—sliding Antichristians even the Apostate fallen stats and so you may read in the eleventh of the Revelation ver. 2. that the court must be left out and be unmeasured and the reason was because it was given to the Gentiles even to them that should tread downe the holy citie for 42. monethes this court we know belonged to the Temple as you may read in the 42. of Ezekiel and had in it the Ordinances belonging to the people And although you have Baptisme and the Lords Supper they will not sanctifie you though they may be sanctified to the use of them amongst you which are Gods people according to the election of grace And though you have some of Gods Ordinances amongst you yet you have added unto them many Ordinances of your owne devising which doth utterly debarre the Lords people which have knowledge of them from communicating with you in any worship As for example How shall any man partake with you of the word preached in your assemblies but he must needs partake also with the false calling of the Priest by which it is preached for none else are suffered to preach amongst you by your leave or approbation but they that preach by that false power And who shall receive the Sacraments with you and not justifie your devised Service-booke for all your things are administred by that And as all the Lords Ordinances ought to be sanctified by the Word of God and prayer So on the contrarie you labour to sanctifie your things by the stinted service-booke and therefore the withdrawing from you may be answered to God Further you beare the world in hand that you