may challenge the Scripture for the fortifying of his Heresyes as fully as we Protestants can do And therefore I do allow that former sentence of Vincentius alledged by you Neuserus D. REYNOLDS I haue found some of our owne learned brethren to teach though aforehand I tell you Michaeas that I dissent in opinion from them that the Church of Rome and the Protestant Church are but one and the same Church from which position they inferre that seeing the predictions of the continuall Visibility of the Church of God and an vninterrupted administration of the Word and Sacraments haue bene performed at least as you Romanists do auerâ—e in the Church of Rome that consequently ours and yours being but one Church they are performed in the Protestant Church And according hereto we find M. Hooker thus to teach We gladly acknowledg them of Rome to be of the family of Iesus Christ c. And agayne we say that they of Rome c. are to be held a part of the house of God a limme of the visible Church of Christ with whome conspireth D. Some thus graunting The learneder Wryters acknowledge the Church of Rome to be the Church of God But this Opinion I haue to the liberty of euery one eyther to retayne it or reiect it MICHAEAS Here now you Protestants are retyred to your last refuge and hould And thus is Errour glad to be shrowded vnder the Wings of Truth For whereas the most dispassionate sober learned Protestants among you do grant that for many ages before Luthers reuolt they cannot truly and really iustify the visibility of their Church in particular much lesse the administration of the word and Sacraments And yet during all the sayd ages they see that all this is actually accomplished in our Catholicke Roman Church They are therefore forced to giue back and to retyre in all their former answeres And at length are driuen for the supporting of their owne Church to say that the Protestant Church the Roman Catholicke Church are identically but one and the same Church And thereupon they inferre as you M. Doctour say that seing our Catholicke Church be generall acknowledgment hath euer continued visible during all the former ages that therefore your Protestant Church both being but one and the same by their curteous yeelding hath also enioyed the same priuiledge of a perpetuall Visibility and the like administration of the Word and Sacraments So ready you Protestants are for the preseruing only of your owne imaginary Church in former tymes to ioyne hands with they Catholicks if so they would agree therto you granting that your owne Succession calling and Ministery is and hath bene for former ages continued and preserued only in the Succession calling Ministery of our Catholicke Roman Church And according to this our meaning M. Bunny a Protestant of good esteeme here in England dealeth plainly ingeniously herein for he not only teacheth as the former Protestants do but giueth sincerely the true reason of such their doctrine to wip that otherwise they cannot proue the being of the Protestant Church during so many former ages for thus he writeth Of the departing from the Church there ought to be no question amang vs. We are no seuerall Church front them meaning from vs Catholicks nor they from vs And therefore there is no departing at all out of the Church Nor any do deparâ— from them to vs nor from vs to them c. And yet more fully It was euill done of them who vrged first such a separation c. For that it is great probability for them meaning vs Catholicks that so we make our selfâ— answerable to find out a distinct and seuer all Church from them which hath continued from the Apostles age to this present Or els that needs we must acknowledge that our Church is sprung vp but of late or since theirs And finally M. Bunny thus concludeth Our Aduersaryes see themselues to haue aduantage if they can ioynt vs to this separation Thus M. Bunny But touching my particular iudgment herein I vtterly with all Catholicks disclayme from mantayning that our Church and the Protestant Church is all one And I confidently auerre that this strange Paradox is inuented by Protestants for the reasons aboue expressed OCHINVS What is the matter brought to this Issue that we must grant the Papists Church and our Church to be one and the same Church Is this M. Doctour the euent of our disputation I will here imprecate with the Poet against myselfe Sed mihi vel tellus optem priùs ima debiscat Vel Pater Omnipotens adigat â—â—fulâ—ine ad vmbraâ— Pallâ—â—ies vmbras Erebi â—octeâ—que profundam Before I acknowledge the Synagogue of Rome to be the Church of God NEVSERVS I giue you free leaue Ochinâ—s to include me within this your imprecation For I will dye the death of a sinner before I grant that the Popish Church is the same with the Protestant Church What shall Superstition and Idolatry by our owne consents be aduanced and set vp side by side with the Gospell in the throwne of Gods Tabernacle It is a thing insufferable and the thought thereof is not so much as once to be entertayned MICHAEAS Gentlemen good words God grant your owne Prayers agaynst your selfs be not heard And though I be of your mynd that the Catholicke Church and your Church is not all one Church yet if before your deaths you do not acknowledge the Church of Rome for the true Church doublesly your prayer wil be heard when your selfs though too late shall with vnutterable but improfitable remoâ—se condemne your selfs of your owne grosse consideration in so weighty a matter But M. Doctour and you two Hitherto we see our discourse hath bene cheifly spent in your obiecting Arguments for your Churches visibility and my answering of them Now I do expect that our Scenes be altered And that I may insist in obiecting what I haue red confessed euen by the most learned Protestants touching this subiect For these alternatiue variations of parts in dispute are in all Reason and by custome of all Schooles most warrantable D. REYNOLDS We giue you good leaue For it argueth a great distrust diffidence in a Mans cause to tye his aduersary only to answere and neuer to suffer him to oppose And it is as vnreasonable as if in a Duelisme the one party should be indented with only toward and neuer to sryke Therefore proceed Michâ—â—s at your pleasure MICHAEAS Truth sayth S. Augustin iâ— mâ—re foroible to wrâ—ng 〈◊〉 Confession then any rackâ— or tormâ—nt Which sentence we fyâ—d to be iustifyed in this Question of the Protestant Churches Inuisibility For diuers learned Protestants there are who as being more ingenuous and vpright in their wrytings and in their managing of matters of Religion then others of their party as well discerning the insufficiency of all pretended Instances and other colorable euasions and answeares which
power of Magistrats doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases c. And further Beza m roundly teacheth what reason haue Christians to obey hym that is Satans slâ—ue And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza he saith a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats To contract this poynt touchinge Beza Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his Pâ—rplaceâ— mihi c. It pleaseth me very much that you wryte that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe in the said epistle Si pijs semper expectandum putas dum lupi vltro cedant c. Yf you thinke we must stay the delayes of godly men till the woulâ—es do freely depart or are driuen away by publyke authority I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein c. And if we had made such delayes What Churches should wee haue had at this day Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt concerning both which in generall I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft passed vpon them both who thus wryteth He that shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war of peace of subiection of reformation without staying for the Magistrate Thus he Next we will come to kâ—ox who thus teacheth Reformation of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes Princes for iust cause may be deposed Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words Yf Princes be tyraâ—ts against God and his Truth their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence Of all which passages of Knoâ—see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein for thus he teacheth The People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with â—at more debasing spyte he thus egurgiâ—ates his veâ—ome It were good that rewards were appointed by the People for such 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants as commonly there is for those which haue killed vulues Finally Bucanan affirmeth that People may arraigne their Prince Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester who in his Sermon at Pooles Church termeth these two men The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers yet no part thereof conceâ—neth the Church of England or it Members Our Church remayning most incontaminate fâ—ee and spotles from the lâ—ast tuch of disloyalty And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid concerneth vs litle you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs who wholy disclayme from the same MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Pardon me if I heere do say you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance For first are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther Swâ—nglius Caluin Beza and the others aboue mentioned If you be not then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being If you be of the same fayth must you not then confesse that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince Secondly it is ouer manifest that the Church of England I speake of some members thereof only not of all doth stand most chargeable with the same crime In proofe of which point I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury D. Bancroft who in one of his Books thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point saying I omit their desperate courses of deposing Princes and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation The generall summe was this That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it the Ministers the inferiour Magistrate the People c. might set it oâ— fooâ—e themselues Of these and such like arguments diuers bookes he meaning made by English protestants were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua to be there then printed in English and to be published in England c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme thus writeth Goodman Whitingam Gilby the authour of the booke of Obedience with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes urged all states by degrees rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues then to suffer such Idolatry Superstition remayne in the Land But to descend more particularly to this Goodman He was a forward Protestanâ— in Queene Maryes tyme did write a booke of this very subiect as D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe affirme Thus hereof he wryteth as D. Bancroft alleadgeth his sentences If Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes and commanâ— others to do the like then haue they loâ—â— honour and obedience and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats but to be examined accused condemned c. And more It is not sufficient for subiects not to obâ—y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes but to withstand them also And yet more plainly Euill Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect there was also in the said times an other Booke made against the authority of Princes and entituled Of Obedience Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe in which booke we thus read Kings haue their authority from the People and by occasion the People may take it away agayne And more By the word of God in a manifest defection meaning of fayth and Religion a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant Marke you not how he doth Rauiliac it And finally It is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants But I will wade no further in this argument For I much feare that the afore vnheard and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge Only I must note that among the aboue mentioned Protestants some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes others with aâ—â— contempt and disgrace yet all of them alledged do with one the same eye or countenance indifferently looke vpon this principle to wit That Princes in some cases may be deposed such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces we obserue great disproportion in one and the same proportion LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Michaeas I must confesse that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants touching the deposing of Princes are most strange and indeede distastfull vnto me But it well may be that
Augustins comming into England Thirdly it is prooued that at the tyme of the conference betweene Augustine and the Briton Byshops the greatest difference in matters of Fayth and Religion wherupon they stoode were but two poynts cheifly consisting in Ceremony to wit the keeping of Easter day in it vsuall tyme and the forme of Baptizing according to the rites of Rome Fourthly and lastly it is graunted that Augustine here planted and preached to the English all Articles and points of the present Romane Religion or Papistry as you Protestants do vsually style it Now M. Doctour what other resultancy can here be made out of all these Premisses but this To wit that the Church of Rome in Augustins time teaching Papistry was wholy agreeable the two points or Ceremonies of keeping Easter day and of baptising with the Rites of Rome only excepted with the Fayth and Religion which was planted among the Britons by Ioseph of Aramathia in the Apostles daies and consequently that the Church of Rome teaching Papistry did neuer suffer any change in her Faith and Religion since the Apostles departed This is the Argument wherin I graunt I partly insult it is inauoidable it is a demonstration And pryse it Micheas as a strong Aries beating downe bearing before it whatsoeuer may seeme to withstand the Truth in this pointe controuerted MICHEAS In deed my Lord it seemes to me very forcible and you did well to reserue it to the last place that so like sweet-meats it might pleasingly close vp the tast of our iudgments Neuerthelesse the consideration of it doth not diminish with me the force of your other former arguments for though Better be better yet followeth it not but that Good is good D. WHITAKERS My Lord This your argument is tyed togeather with many links and breake but one of them all the rest are loosed And indeed it is but an argument drawne from Authority Negatiuely and by Omission only which you know is little valued in the schooles For the hinge as I may say or weight of it only consisteth in this That at the meeting of Augustine and the Briton Bishops dissented from Augustine But of other greater points we read no mention made among them and therfore for any thing we know the Britons might aswell disagree from Augustine in all other Articles passed ouer in silence as agree with them CARD BELLARM. How improbable how absurd how impossible is this you say And take heede M. Doctour that this your answere be not controuled by your owne secret conscience and beware of much practising the like hereafter since the Character of any bad course impressed by a long habit at length becoms indelible But to the point Consider all the Circumstances of the busines at that tyme handled and then deliuer an impartiall and euen censure The meeting was occasioned only for comparing their Faiths together Augustine imitating therin S. Paul vt conferat cum illis Euangelium quod praedicat in Gentibus The Britons euen by the acknowledgment of M. Fox did beare themselues at the first against Augustine with great pertinacy stubbernes and therfore the lesse probable it is that they would yeeld to him in any point of moment more then was agreeable to their owne Religion The differences betweene them after much disquisition and search are recorded to be only about the two former points of Ceremonies and seeming indifferency The Recorder of this great Passage was principally S. Bede who ex professo did write most elaborately and punctually the Ecclesiasticall History of England in those times and therein was obliged by his designed method not to register the smallest occurrents and wholy to omit the greatest Now then can we dreame that the Doctrines touching the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of the Masse Praying to Saints Purgatory Free-will Iustification by works Images Monachisme the Primacy of Peter and some others all being Articles of greatest importance and particulerly taught by S. Augustine were either not mentioned and not once spoken of in that serious discourse betweene Augustine and the Briton Bishops or they being then painfully discussed and ventilated the Britons being so refractory and stiffe with Augustine in the smalest points would quietly and without resistance embrace all these high doctrines as Innouations and repugnant to their Fayth first planted by Ioseph of Aramathia Or if the Briâ—on Bishops veâ—lded not their assent to these supreame poynts of Fayth of Rome would not such their reluctation and dislike haue bin recorded by S. Bede and other writers of those tymes who would not omit to relate the Britons stifnes and coldnes in the least matters of this History It is great weakenes but to suppose such impossibilities It is madnes and lunacy to beleeue them Therfore my absolute and last resolution here is that the Fayth of Augustine was then one and the same in all Articles with the Fayth of the Britons first preached to them in the Apostles dayes the Ceremonies of Baptising and of keeping Easter day cheifly excepted which lesser errours S. Augustine obseruing the Britons stiffnes thought perhaps would sooner be recalled by a patient sufferance of them for a tyme then by any violent meanes vsed at the first to the contrary like to some diseases which are best cured by continuing the diseases Now for the fuller close of this poynt to wit touching the agreement of the Doctrine taught by S. Augustine with the then Doctrine and Fayth of the Briton Bishops I will adde the acknowledgement of the Briton Bishops themselues of whom S. Bede thus relateth Britones quidem confitentur intellexisse se veram esse viam iustitiae quam praedicaret Augustinus so vnanimous we see were the Britons Augustine in their Fayth and Religion and therfore it was not strange that at the last as D. Fulke affirmeth Augustine did obtayne the ayd of the British Bishops to the conuersion of the Saxons And thus far of this argument the which shall serue as the Catastrophe or end of this my Scene wherin I haue vndertaken though more then by rigour of method I was tyed vnto to prooue by positiue arguments and reasons that the Church of Rome hath neuer suffered any change in her Fayth and religion since the Apostles dayes my cheife allectiue Micheâ—s inducing me therto being only your satisfaction in this your imposed Subiect or Question MICHEAS My L. Cardinall I render you humble thankes and I must say that these your former arguments produced seeme to me very moouing and except M. Doctour be able to repell them with other more forcible arguments they will I coÌ„fesse impell my Iudgment to giue it free and full consent to the beleeuing of that point for the proofe wherof they are by your Lordship alleadged CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour Seeing there is no truth so illustrious and radiant but that in an vndiscerning eye it may seeme to be clowded for the time with the interposition of some weake Obiections
quid gratius offerri aut suscipi possit quà m caro Sacrificii nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri We are here to remember that this Councell of Lateran was holden in the yeare 1215. In which were assembled the Patriarchs of Ierusalem and Constantinople 70 Metropolitan Bishops 400. Bishops and 800. Conuentuall Priours Now can it enter into any braine to thinke that all these learned Men being gathered together from all the seuerall places of the world and many of them neuer seeing diuers of the rest till they were there met should all ioyntly embrace as an innouation and afore neuer heard of a doctrine so contrary to sense and fleshly vnderstanding It is incompatible with common reason to beleeue that such a generall Errour could so suddenly inuade and possesse the iudgments of so many learned Prelates But to demonstrate the antiquity of the Doctrine of Transubstantiation in which sacred Mistery the eye of Faith seeth things inuisible It is confessed by M. Fox that about the yeare of our Lord 1060. the denying of Transubstantiation began to be accoumpted an Heresy and the professours therof Heretickes and in that number was first one Berengarius who liued about the yeare 1060. Now then if the denying of the doctrine of Transubstantiation was accoumpted an Heresy more then a hundred yeares afore the CouÌ„cell of Lateran was assembled how could the doctrine of TransubstaÌ„tiation take it first beginning at that Councel Who seeth not the impossibility hereof Againe how could that doctrine in the times set downe by M. Fox be denyed and impugned except it were then afore beleeued and maintained But to proceede to higher times Doth not D. Humfrey confesse that Gregory the Great who liued fiue huÌ„dred yeares and more before the Councell of Lateran first brought into England the Doctrine of Transubstantiation saying In Ecclesiam vorò quid inuexerunt Gregorius Augustinus inâ—ulerunt c. Transubstantiationem Againe your owne Centurists thus speake of Eusebius Emissenus an ancient Father Eusebius Emissenus pâ—rùm commodè de Transubstantiatione dixit And of Chrisostome your foresayd Brethren thus write Chrysostomus Transubstantiationem videtur confirmare Chrysostome doth seeme to confirme Transubstantiation The Antiquity of which Doctrine is so great that Adamus Francisci a learned Protestant thus acknowledgeth Transubstantiation did enter early into the Church Now M. Doctour how do all these liberall confessions of so many eminent Protestants stand with your assertion to wit that the doctrine of Transubstantiation was first inuented in the Later an Councell And consequently that the Church of Christ suffered at that time a most remarkeable change and alteration in so sublime an Article MICHEAS The Doctrine of the Reall Presence taught by the Church of Rome in respect of the Sacrifice there performed is most conformable to the Prophesies of the ancient Iewes for to omit the Sacrifice of Melchisadech which many did teach to prefigure the Sacrifice which was to be exhibited after the comming of the Messias we finde most of our ancient Rabbins to be of this minde Accordingly hereto we read that Rabby Iudas thus writeth The bread shal be changed when it shal be sacrificed from the substance of bread into the sacrifice of the body of the Messias which shall descend from Heauen and himselfe shal be the sacrifice With Which Rabby to omit diuers others Rabby Symeon agreeth in these words The Sacrifice which after the Messias his comming Priests shall make c. they shall make it of bread wine c. And that sacrifice which shal be so celebrated on the Altar shal be turned into the Body of the Messias So conspiringly M. Doctour we see did our ancient Iewes before Christs birth by way of PredictioÌ„ teach with the prsent Roman Church touching the Reall Presence and the sacrifice performed therin And therfore it is the more straÌ„ge to me that the Doctrine of the Reall Presence and of the Sacrifice should be reputed by you as an â—nnouatioÌ„ lately brought into the Church of Rome for I must needs thinke that Christ himselfe did first institute the same And thus I beleeue that though in our Law Isaack was externally offred vp though not Sacrificed Yet now in the New Testament the Messias is daily Sacrificed though not externally offered vp D. WHITAKERS My Lord Cardinall To passe from the Doctrine it selfe of the Reall Presence or TransubstaÌ„tiation Yet how can you excuse from Nouelisine those phrases touching the Sacrament of the Eucharist first inuented by Pope Nicolaus the second to wit that the body of Christ is sensibly handled broken and chewed with the teeth So grossely do you Romanists teach herein as to maintaine a Doctrine which hath nothing to plead for it but only some few hundreds of yeares CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour You now carry your selfe like a cowardly Mastiâ—ie pardon this my homely similitude which not being able to take any strong and firme hold at the head of his enemy is glad in the end to catch at the flanck or other the hindermost parts So you seing you cannot truly charge the Doctrine it selfe of the Reall presence with innouation are content to quarrell and snatch at certaine phrases and words vsed by some Doctours about the said Doctrine But to your obiection Which once granting the truth of the Reall Presence is meerely verball Therefore I say that these phrases are taken in a sober and restiained construction That is they are immediatly to be referred to the formes of Bread and Wine vnder which the body bloud of Christ do lye Now that these phrases were not first coyned by this Pope Nicolaus as you auerre it is euident out of the writings of S. Chrysostome who liued many ages before this Pope Nicolaus This Father in one place thus writeth Christ suffered fraction or breaking in the oblation which he would not suffer vpon the Crosse And in an other place more fully saying ipsum vides ipsum targis ipsum comedis And yet more expresly Non se tantum videir permittit desider antibus sed et tangi et manancari et denies carni suae infigi Christ doth not only permit himselfe to be scene of those who desired to see him but also to be touched and eaten by them and theire teeth to be fastened in his flesh Thus we see that S. Chrysostom was not afraid to vse the foresaid phrases in a reserued sence which you make so capitall heinous We may adioyne hereto that Iacobus Andreas a famous Protestant but a Lutheran answereth this very obiection which you father vpon Pope Nicolaus as the first inuentor of the former phrazes and thus concludeth thereof saying This obiection taken from Pope Nicolaus nihil continet quod inscriptis Orthodoxorum Patrum Chysostomi in primisâ— non continetur D. WHITAKERS I will not be long in reciting Innouations of strange Doctrins introduced into the Church of Rome since the
not beene afore beleeued From which it euidently followeth that the Professours of the affirmatiue doctrines were that society of Christians out of which as more ancient the former Hereticks originally departed and went out And with this most remarkeable Men I end remitting to your owne cleare eyed iudgmeÌ„ts now after the perusing of this smale Treatise whether it was the present Church of Rome or the Protestant Church which hath made this so much inculcated change and alteration from that Faith which first was preached and taught in the sayd Church of Rome by the Apostles Laus Deo et Beatae Virgini Mariae THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEVV OR THE SECOND DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS THE IEW Betweene Michaeas the former Conuerted Iew. Ochinus who first planted Protestancy in England in King Edward the sixt his raygne Doctour Reynolds of Oxford Neuserus cheife Pastour of Heidelberge in the Palatinate The Contents hereof the Argument following will show Here is adioyned an Appendix wherin is taken a short Suruey contayning a full Answere of a Pamphlet intituled A Treatise of the Visibility and Succession of the True Church in all ages Printed Anno. 1624. Si dixerint vobis Ecce in deserto est nolite exire Ecce in Penetralibus noâ—â—â—e credere Math. 24. PERMISSV SVPERIORVM Anno. M. DC XXX THE ARGVMENT MICHAEAS after the Disputation had betweene Cardinall Bellarmine and D. Whitakers touching Romes chang in Religion through which he was first made Catholicke and in short tyme after made Priest trauelleth into many Countries to see their Vniuersities and places of learning At the length he arriueth in England where from visiting of Cambridg he cometh to Oxford Then he findeth D. Reynolds Ochinus and Neuserus They mooue him to become Protestant He answereth that the want of performace of the Prophecies touching the Visibility of Christs Church in the Protestant Church induceth him besides other reasons to continue Catholicke Hereupon they all begin a Disputation touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church for former ages prefixing therto by mutuall consent a short Discourse of the Necessity of a continuall Visibility of the true Church Michaeas so fully displayeth the insufficiency of the pretended Instances of Protestants and of all other Arguments vrged for proofe thereof That insteed of Michaeas being to be made a Protestant by this Disputation Ochinus and Neuserus as not acknowledging the present Roman Church to be the true Church and seing the Prophecies not to be fulfilled in the Protestant Church do finally come to this point to wit absolutely and openly to affirme that the Church of Christ as not hauing the Prophecies accomplished in it which were foretould to be performed in the true Church of God touching it Visibilitie is a false Church and that our Sauiour Christ was a Seducer Hereupon they both protest that from that tyme forward they do renounce the ChristiaÌ„ fayth and do embrace the Iewish Religion and so teaching Circumcision and reuiuing the Old law they do turne blasphemous Iewes or Turks Michaeas and D. Reynolds do vse vehement perswasions to them to the contrary but their words preuayle not and so the disputatioÌ„ breaketh off What courses Ochinus and Neuserus do after take for their spreading of Iudaisme is hereafter set downe And all the passages of their Reuolt are manifested partly out of their owne wrytings and partly from the acknowledgment of diuers learned Protestants so as their Apostacy is not feigned but true and reall THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEW WHEREIN IS DEMONSTRATED that the Protestant Church hath euer remayned Inuisible or rather hath not bene in Being since the Apostles daies till Luthers reuolt DOCTOVR REYNOLDS MICHAEAS God saue you I much reioyce to see you here in England And I congratulate your coming to this our Vniuersity of Oxford I haue often heard of you through occasion of your former entercourse of disputes with my Brother D. Whitakers though it was neuer my fortune to see you before this present MICHAEAS I greatly thanke you M. Doctour for this your kindnesse touching my coming hither you may know that since my last seeing of D. Whitakers I haue passed through diuers Countries and Nations moued thereunto notwithstanding my greate age through my owne innate desire of seeing places and Vniuersitis of erudition and learning Now at the last I am arriued in England and am immediatly comne froÌ„ visiting the Vniuersity of Cambridge a place in my iudgment much exceeding all prayses heretofore deliuered of it But may I make bolde to enquire of you who those two gentlemen here present are whose externall comportments do euen depose that their mindes are fayrely enriched with many Intellectuall good parts for it is certaine that a mans outward cariadge is commonly the true shadow of the minde cast by the light of the inward soule DOCTOVR REYNOLDS You haue coniectured aright For both these are men of great emineÌ„cy for learuing The elder of theÌ„ is called Ochinus who being accompained with the learned Peter Martyr did in King Edward the sixts tyme first plant in England the doctrine of Caluin after the Romish Religion was once abolished One whose presence in those dayes made EnglaÌ„d happie whose after absence made it Vnfortunate whom all Italy for he is an Italian could not equall This other is Neuserus the chiefe Pastour of Heidelberge in the Palatinate a man whoÌ„ Nature his owne Industrie haue not placed in any lower roome of knowledge for he is transcendently learned and hath much labored in dilating the Ghospel of Christ Both these men are reciding here for the time by reason of some late emergent occations and businesse tending to the aduancement of Christs Church I could wish Michaeas you were acquainted with them MICHAEAS Gentlemen I greete you both in the salutation of the chiefe Apostle gratia vobis pax multiplicetur And I am glad that I am comne to that place where the very wals and streets in regard of such mens presence do euen Eccho forth learning and all good literature OCHINVS Worthy Michaeas for so I heare you called I willingly entertayne your acquaintance for learning I prize highly in any man as holding it the chiefest riches next to true Religion wherewith the vnderstanding is endowed NEVSERVS And I as happily do congratulate your arriuall here for what company of men are more to be esteemed then the Society of learned Men where themselues though few in number are a sufficient Auditory to themselues Satis magnum alteri alter theatrum they interchangeably giuing and receiuing all content by their leatned discourses DOCTOVR REYNOLDS Haue you had Michaeas a full sight of our Vniuersity Colledges If not we are ready to accompany you throughout all the chiefe places thereof MICHAEAS I haue already seene them all and particularly your late erected schooles wherin are dayly ventilated all questions worthy the iudiceous eares of Schollers and your spatious liberary the very
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
passage touching Waldo and the Waldenses and their followers After this Authour hath finished his speech of the Waldenses he further thus proceedeth The Authour of the sixtenth Century nameth about the yere 1500. Baptista Mantuanus and Franciscus Picus Earle of Mirandula both which inueighed against the Cleargy and their whole practize Also one D. Keisers pergius an other called Iohn Hilton a third named Doctour Andreas Proles and Sauanorola all grawning vnder the burden of those tymes Againe the Pamphleter thus saith Aud the same is written of Trimetheus an other learned Man who liued at that tyme. Thus this our Authour Now how exorbitantly and wildly are these vrged for Protestants For First they are auerred to be such only by Protestant Wryters to wit Oâ—â—ander and Pantaleon who heerein may well be presumed for the vphoulding of their owne Protestant Church to be partial in their Relations Secondly this Treatizer doth not instance any poynts of Protestancy beleiued by any of them which if he could no doubt he would not haue omitted but only vrgeth their wrytings against some pretended abuses of the Church of Rome in those dayes And therfore such his proceeding is but calumnye and impertinency Lastly touching Sauanorola and Picus of Mirandula for as for the others they are so obscure that hardly any particular information can be had of them It is certaine that they were both Roman Catholicks and dyed in that Religion For as concerning Sauanorola he beleiued all the Articles of the Roman fayth as euidently appeareth out of his owne writings styled Vigiliae excepting the doctrine of the Popes power to excommunicate This one point he contumaciously denyed and for this he was burnt Touching Picus of Mirandula Syr Thomas More of blessed memory wryting his life showeth that he was so fully a Roman Catholicke that in his life tyme he sould a great part of his lands to giue to the poore that he often vsed to scourge discipline his owne flesh that if he had liued longer he intended to haue entred into the Religious Order of the Dominican Pryars That in tyme of his sicknes he receaued according to the Catholicke custome the most blessed and reuerend Sacrament of Christs body and bloud for his Viaticum Finally that hearing the Priest in his sicknes to repeate vnto him the articles of the Roman fayth and being demanded whether he beleiued them Answered He did not only beleiue them but did know them also to be true So fowly we see this Pamphleter is ouerseene in alledging Sauanorola and Picus of Mirandula for Protestants But to proceede further This idle waster of penne inke paper for I can tearme him no better next descendeth in a retrograte and disorderly method to Laurentius Valla the Gramaâ—iaÌ„ who touching the Articles of the Roman Catholicke fayth only denyed freewill as appeareth euen froÌ„ the ProtestaÌ„t Writers And who after g submitted himselfe to the Pope and finally dyed in all poynts Catholicke all which this Authour affectedly concealeth He saith of Valla in this sort Valla wrote a Treatise of purpose against the forged donation of Constantine He pronounceth of his owne experience that the Pope maketh war against peaceable People and soweth discord betweene Cittyes and prouinces c. With much more refuse of base matter concerning the supposed coueteousnes of the Pope yet notwithstanding all this he nameth not any one Article of Protestancy defended by Valla. But the Pamphleter thus further proceedeth to others saying About the same tyme liued Nicolaus Clemingius who rebuked many things in the Ecclesiasticall State and spake excellently in the matter of Generall Councells c. Petrus de Aliaco Cardinal of Cambray gaue atract to the Councell of Constance touching reformation of the Church There he doth reproue many notable abuses against the Romanists c. About the same tyme liued Leonardus Aretinus whose litle Booke against Hypocrates is worth the reading So is the Oration of Antontus Cornelius Linnicanus laying open the lend lubricity of Priests in his dayes So doth he detect many abuses and errours who wrote the ten agreiuances of Germany But those who compiled the hundred agreuances of the German Nation do discouer many more And then the Pamphleter most ambitiously or rather ridiculously thus concludeth By this tyme I trust it is manifest how false a slaunder of the Papistsis that before the dayes of Martin Luther there was neuer any of our Religion Egregiam verè laudem spolia ampla refectis Tu calamusque tâ—â—s For who obserueth not how absurdly you Pamphleter do apologize For the Visibility of your Church Thus good Reader thou seest that this Authour instanceth in Valla and others aboue mencioned for Protestants and yet setteth not downe any one Article of Protestancy beleiued by them for not any of them denyed the Reall presence Purgatory prayer to saincts the Seauen Sacraments Iustification by Works the Popes Supremacy c. All that this Authour can produce theÌ„ for is because they did wryte Satyrically and bitterly against the abuses of the Church in those dayes But to this we replye That it is granted on all sydes that both in the Catholicke and the Protestant Church there haue bene and still are diuers of irregular and disedifying lyues Must now those who in their wrytings or Sermons reprehend such be necessarily supposed to be of a different fayth from those whom they so reprehend Who seeth not the weaknes of this inconsequent and absurd kynd of reasoning From the former Iustances the Pamphleter ascendeth to Iohn l Wiclef prostituring him for a Protestant And heere also he spendeth many leaues in wandring excursions of speeches and indeede to no other end but as I intimated a fore to dawbe inke vpon paper For he pretendeth to show the Aussits had receaued their doctrine out of the Books of Wiclef how the Councell of Constance condemned Wiclef for an Heretiycke as also how the doctryne of Wiclef was much dilated heare in England But to manifest how impertinent the alledging of Wiclef for a Protestant is I refer the Reader to the Dialogue where are showed out of Wiclefs one Wrytings the many Catholicke articles of the Roman Religion to wit the doctrine of the seauen Sacraments Rites and Ceremonies of the Masse praying to our Blessed Lady worship of Images merit of Works and works of Supererogation c. still beleiued by him euen after his leaping out of our Church As also there are showed the many condemned Heresies in like sort mantayned by him after his departure from the Roman Church and this from the penns of the Protestants But here before I end with Wiclefe I must put the Reader in mind of one notorious Collusion or deceate much practized by this Pamphleter touching diuers of the former men alledged for Protestants but most particularly touching Wiclefe It is this He here particularizeth no Protestant articles but only the denying of Transubstantiation yet where