the voyce of Antichrist The church of God doth keep the doctrine of the Apostles Prophets without addition alteration or corruption thus the Conformists But the Church of England keepes not the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets without addition alteration and corruption say the Nonconformists see pa. 108. Ergo she is not the church of God No society can be termed Gods church which retayneth not Gods true worship thus say the Conformists But the church of England doth not retayn Gods true worship say the Nonconformists see pag. 78. to 113. Ergo she cannot be termed Gods church The true church consisteth not of feirce Lyons Wolves Tygers and such like wild and feirce beasts but of sheepe and Lambes which learne of Christ and are meeke humble gentle c. so say the Conformists But the English church doth consist of Lyons Wolves Tygers and such like wild and feirce beasts and not of sheepe and Lambes which learne of Christ and are mâ—eke humble gentle c. thus affirme the Nonconformists see pag. 31. c. 145. 169. 170. therefore it is not a true Church Here the reader seeth clearly how the Conform majors and the Nonconform minors make up intyre Syllogismes of Separatisme And how they will be able to unlose these knots I know not except by revoking utterly their owne grounds which if either of them doe yet I doubt not but we shall well enough be able to maintaine them against men SECT IV. NOw we come to take a view of such exceptions as may seeme to cary most weight against our former conclusion And these are laid down cheifly by Mr. Dayrell in his treatise of the Church this man made a shift to fill up there with words above thirty sheets of paper The which subject if some men had tooke in hand they would easily have comprised all the matter of it in 12. or 14. leaves My purpose is not to follow him in his idle repetitions neither to speake much of his contradictions absurdities but in short to give a full answer to his tedious tyresome discourses Touching the description which he makes of a visible church he saith thus All that be and remaine vnder the voyce and call of God that is the ministerie of the word c. be of the visible church Answ This is a false and prophane errour for first then the vilest Hereticks that ever have beene in the world may be members thereof as the Appellites Cerdonians Macedonians Paternians Patricians c. such as held two contrarie beginnings or Gods the one good the other evill such as held that Christ is not rysen from the dead denyed the Holy Ghost to be God affirmed the bodie to be created of the devill c. 2. Then may excommunicate persons be of the church before they acknowledge their sinnes yea Tuâ—â—es Iews and Infidles 3. Whereto leadeth this Position but indeed to make the Church a very stincking ditch to receave all filthinesse and to be like the whorish woman which openeth her knees to every passenger contrarie to the patterne given us of God Rev. 21. ult 4. If this were true then should no man for any offence be censured so long as he remaines vnder the voyce and call of God For that which is enough to state one in the Church is enough to keepe him there still if he retaine it 5. He speakes contrary to the judgement of all Reformists and Conformists that ever I have heard or read of and contrarie to his owne writing in other places for in pag. 22. 35 c. he defines a Church to be a company called out from the rest of the world and such as doe submit themselves to the true worship of God Now there is a great difference betweene this calling from the world submitting to the true worship of God c. and onely to be under the ministerie of the word 6. I cannot tell from whom Mr. Dayr receaved this strange doctrine unlesse it were the Heretick Eunomius which taught that so men were of his religion it was no matter what their conversation was nor how many sinnes they committed He doth often affirme in his booke that it is not Faith and repentance but the Profession thereof which is necessarie to the making of a member of the visible Church Marke how blasphemously he speakes intimating if men with their mouth speake some few good wordes they may be taken lawfullv into the Communion of the Saints and partake with the rest in the Sacraments and Prayer All be it knowne to be notorious murderers theeves traitors sorcerers witches whoremoungers c. and so resolved to live and continue It is very likely this Mr. Dayr had a great Church seeing he made the doore unto it broad and wide just like the way to hell I could here lay down many grosse absurdities which might be truly concluded from his words viz. that a Church cannot cast out some obstinate sinners neither is she and the world to be distinguished c. but because the vanitie and evill of this speach is enough allready shewed I purposely passe them over We have seene one of Mr. Dayr definitions now followes another Let there be an assembly joyned together in prayer hearing the word and receaving the Sacraments according to Christs institution and it is a true visible Church Answ It is so indeed and hence this argument against them may be framed If in the Ecclesiastical Assemblies of England there is neither prayer preaching nor sacraments administred according to Christs institution then are they all false Churches But the first is true therefore the second The proposition hath sufficient confirmation from their Principles before named the assumption is certaine and manifest by the doctrine and description which he here makes of a true visible church and there lyeth against it no exception In the next page he delivers a Paradox viz. that men outwardly may submitt to true worship and yet be irreligious and prophane Now this is either falsely or foolishly spoken If he meane of visible prophanesse and irreligion then it is a contradiction and indeed plaine Nonsence for to say that a person may outwardlie submitt to God and yet outwardlie be prophane and ungodly If he intended of secret and inward irreligion of the heart In this sence it is true but answereth nothing at all to the matter for which he brings it Here also he layeth downe Mr. â—insw wordes as he saith unto which he makes no direct reply but runnes to another matter whereof he had now no cause at all to speake He denyeth that either the Papists or Anabaptists doe professe true Religion although they professe some true and sound doctrine What moved him thus to thinke I know not unlesse it were because these have many errours in their religion Now if this reason will stand firme and good against them then it must needs follow that the Church of England professeth
concerneth and ordination or laying on of hands by these to whome it appertayneth is so required as if default be made either in the examination or election the whole action is disanulled and made voyd I desire the reader to note well what they say here viz. so necessarie is a right election and ordination to euery Ecclesiasticall office that without the same it cannot possibly be true and lawfull The same they doe againe affirme a little before the place cited Indeed if their evill had bin onely in life meaning Popish Preists or in some principall points of doctrine it were somthing but their defect is in the very calling For Christ beeing the doore and God that openeth to the Pastors that enter by it and all that enter otherwise are theeves and murderers We have also to prove the minor their owne testimony for they say directly that not any one of the forenamed officers are either proved elected called or ordained according to Gods word but after the old Popish order and for this cause doe confesse that they have not a right ministerie among them It was a great fault in Pharaoh when he had given his consent vnto the Israelites that they should freely depart out of Aegypt and goe vnto Canaan according to Gods appointment that he should afterward vse all the meanes he could to gett them back into their former miserable servitude I haue shewed by the Nonconformists grounds that our seperation from their ministery is with their leave and approbation and therefore they doe not well to seeke our bondage and misery again the same thing we shall prove touching their worship Government and Church in order and place If therefore they would have vs in earnest returne vnto them Let them first by the Scriptures justify the things which they haue condemned I say refute their owne bookes and build againe the thinges which they have destroyed and when they have made themselves transgressors if we be not able by Gods word to prove that the things which we refraine from are every way as evill as they have testified we will by his grace acknowledge our error and returne againe vnto them in the meane while we shall judge wel of our order and manner of walking and put vp our dayly petitions vnto the father our of Lord Iesus C. in behalf of all Gods elect yet in Babilon that they may com out from that vnholy state and doe the Lords worke in his owne way It remaines to speake now of their deacons office the which as the rest before is wholy condemned of the Nonconformists For they â—say that those ordained deacons in their Church Never purpose in their life to execute any part of a deacons office neither are chosen for that end but onely that within a short time after they may be made Preists nothing in the world differing from the superstition of popery where the office of a deacon was conferred onely as a step vnto Preisthood as though it were necessarie that every one which is ordained an elder should first be deacon and yet when he is made a deacon he is but an idoll yea scarse an idol of a deacon having noresemblance at all vnto a deacon indeed but that he is a man This prophaning of Gods institution God will not allwayes suffer vnpunished especially when it is not maintained of ignorance or infirmity but defended against knowledge vpon willfulnesse Others of them doe affirme the like That they have thrust vpon them a counterfeyt and Popish deaconship a meere humane institution Foolish and made according to Antichrists Canons without any ground for it out of the Scriptures nothing like the ordinance of God for the releefe of the poore And therefore they have desired that it might be vtterly abolished and taken a way That a man from those principles may inferre a lawfull separation from all spirituall communion in the ministerie of their English deaconship I think every one if he vnderstand what a principle is will freely grant it But if there be any that beleeves the former positions to be true and yet will vndertake to prove by Gods word that it may warrantably be joyned with I shall be willing to read what he can say herein promising if I live either to yeeld or reply againe according to the worth or weaknesse which I shall see to be in the writing for the thing And because he may not want matter to begin with I will lay downe this argument for him If the present deaconry of the Church assemblies of England be a meere human institution and no ordinance of God but an office taken onely of the Pope that Roman Antichrist c. Then it is not lawfull in the worship of God to have any spirituall communion therewith But the present deaconry of the Church assemblies of England is a meere human institution and no ordinance of God but an office taken onely of the Pope that Roman Antichrist therefore it is not lawfull in the worship of God to have any communion there with The proposition is evident and certaine and cannot be denied for no man can lawfully joyne in communion with a false ministerie As it hath bin formerly proved by Scriptures reasons and the testimony of the Learned The assumption is wholy taken from their owne writings The which if they should deny yet can we justify the same against all men It may be some will exspect that I should write somthing of their Lecturers And the rather because they in the judgment of many are thought to be the best ministers of their life and doctrine I say nothing but as for their ministerie surely it is new and strange as King Iames was wont to say of it For the original of their name manner of enterance and administration is vnknowne wholy to the Scriptures I thinke never before heard of till in these later broken and confused times Therefore it is no marvaile when the question hath been propounded to some of them as it was by the Pharises to Iohn Who art thou that they have not been able for their life to answere the point neither could agree among themselves what kind of ministerie it is that they have taken up and beeing hard pressed for resolution they have ingeniously confessed that unlesse they be Evangelists they could not see how their ministery doth accord with any ministerie mentioned in the New Testament This I write upon my owne certaine knowledge the persons I thinke are yet liveing whose names for some reason I forbeare to expresse Howbeit I can and will doe it if I see there be a just and necessarie occasion I doe not thinke it strange that they should thus speake For indeed I know not what they can say better in defence of their standing Pastors I am sure they will not say they are For first they doe not take any particular charge of a flock upon them 2. They performe not the
Nonconformists say is contained in their communion booke and hence the same is called divine service as for preaching it is held to be no part thereof we will follow here the same method And first I will shew what a true divine worship is according to their owne discription of it 2 How farre that in the Church of England by their owne confession differs from and is contrarie to it 3 Lay downe arguments to prove our separation lawfull by the former grounds 4 Answer D. Ames reasons alleaged to the contrary It is certaine that the Lord hath given a perfect platforme and absolute rule how he will be worshipped in the time of the new Testament an excellent direction for vs how we may acceptablie performe the same vnto him is laid downe in Iohn 4. 23. 24. Two things are there mentioned spirit and truth first it must be a true matter of worship grounded on the word it must be no devised worship For nothing may goe vnder the name of the worship of God which he hath not ordained in his owne word and commaunded to vs as his owne worship All the parts and meanes thereof must be don according to his revealed will Even as the service which is given to an earthly prince by his attendants at court must be onely according to that Kings commaundement so the outward solemne worship to be performed vnto the King of Kings ought to be that onely which he alone is the author and institutor of As for rules given by men not grounded on the Scripture in case of Religion matters of faith c. They are not of any moment neither are we bound to the observation of them For the truth is whosoever vseth those wayes and inventions in worshipping God which are not commaunded of God in his word but be devices of men Christ saith that they worship him in vaine c. If it have no further begining then mans braine God will give no blessing to it but sends a curse vpon it for cursed is he that addes any thing to the word of God God will ad so much to his plagues and the reason is because he makes himselfe wiser or better then God For if God be perfectly wise then he knew best what worship would please himselfe and if he be perfectly good then he would reveale vnto vs what ever he knew fit for vs to practice A gaine it is a great injurie offered to God when we will let his deadly enimies have the ordering and appointing of his service rather then himselfe A King would thinke it a great indignitie that his servaints should not yeeld to his direction but some base person that were a professed enemie should set downe what service he must have and in what manner he must be obeyed who shall be his attendants and what his provision But much more absurd and injurious it is that we will let the wit and will of the flesh bear sway in Gods worship for these two doe joyne with the devil and are enmity to God And if we will have this preheminence in our houses that our servants must doe as we bid them not what they themselves thinke good for he is a good servant that doth his masters will not his own then why should not we thinke it right that God must be Lord in his house and we must doe his service after his appointment and not our own And not onely doe they teach these wholesome and good doctrines but also doe lay downe sundry effectuall reasons to prove that men may not worship God otherwise then he hath appointed and revealed in his word 1. Because we can have no true comfort in our devotions so long as they be but limmes of that which Paul termes voluntary Religion so long as they are onely taken vp by vs and not prescribed to vs make we never so great a shew of zeale in the performance of them yet it is nothing 2. All worship devised by man is abhorred by the Lord for he likes nothing but what he appointeth himselfe 3. It is against his expresse commaundemeÌ„t that men should bring any of their owne devising neare his ordinances because he will have no more don in his worship then he teacheth and commaundeth in his word Therefore whatsoever is added that we are to esteeme to be an Image which he detesteth and abhorreth 4. Because whatsoever God would have vs either to know or doe he hath fully revealed it by Christ 5. It is the property of superstitious andâ—dolatrous things to infect the places and persons where they are 6. It argues certainly that men doe not love the Lord and his commaundements but hate rather both when they worship God otherwise then he commaundeth for although every wil worshipper will say that he loveth God yet God witnesseth in the second commaundement that he is a liar and that he hateth God in that he hateth the worship which he commaundeth in the love whereof God will have experience of his love 7. The Lord will blesse the true worshippers of him vnto many generations both in themselves their children and posterity and in whatsoever belongs vnto theÌ„ 8. We must learne to proportion our worship to Gods nature which is simple in that which is simple there is no composition or diuision therfore in our worship there must be no composition it must be vayd of mixture a linsey woolfey patch worship sauced spiccd sophisticated with humane inventions doth nothing sort with the spirituall simplicity of the divine essence 9. God promiseth his presence onely in his owne worship and therefore neither accepteth nor blesseth a worship that is not directed by his owne word For conclusion worthily speaketh M. Perkins The second way of erecting an Idoll is when God is worshipped otherwise and by other meanes then he hath revealed in the word For when men sett vp a devised worship they sett vp also a devised God Augustine saith of the Gentiles that they refused to worship the God of the Hebrewes because if their pleasures were to worship him in another sort then he had appointed they should not indeed worship him but that which they had faigned The Samaritans worshipped the God of Abraham Isaac Iacob and they waited for the coming of the Messias yet Christ saith of them Ye worship ye know not what because they worshipped the true God by a worship devised of old set vp by men The Lord saith to the Israelites ye shall call me no more Baali whereby he signifieth that because the Iewes did somtime worship God in the same manner with the same images rites and names whereby the Heathen worshipped the false God Baali therefore they made him indeed to be even as the Idol Baal c. Againe Iohn saith in his first Epistle chapt 2. vers 24. If that which ye have heard from the beginning remaine in you ye shall continue
the mouth of the blasphemous swearer is not tyed vp and the hands of the idolatrous generation of Atheists and prophane persons be not chained when the most holie and precious word of God is manifestly contemned the joyfull and heavenly tydings of salvation so negligently and vngratefully troden vnder foot the true and faithfull messengers pursued arraigned and divers wayes afflicted then if the old world for malitious imaginations Sodom and Gomorra for pride fullnesse of meat and vnmercifullnesse If Ierusalem for abusing Gods Prophets wilsuâ—nes were dâ—stroyd what may we poor carelesse people loke for if we doe not repent but as it is allmost vniversallie feared speedy ruine and vtter desolation Another saith What Christian heart is so stony that doth not mourne what eye so dry that doth not shed teares yea rather gush out with teares to consider and behold the miserie of our supposed glorâ—â—us Church by the spirituall nakednesse blindnesse and povertie thereof I meane the great ignorance the superficiall worship of God the fearefull blasphemies and swearings in houses and streets so also the direfull cursings the open contempt of the word and Sacraments the wicked prophanations of the Lords dayes the dishonour of superiours the pride the crueltie the fornications the covetuousnesse the vsâ—ries and other the like abominations allmost as greivous as either heretofore in the time or now in the places of poperie when and where there was no preaching at all of the Gospell It is also further testifyed that the holy thinges among them are prostituted and sett open to adulterers fornicators drunkards and all kind of vicious and sinful livers They sett no porters at their church dores to keepe out the polluted but every uncleane person is permitted to enter freely I say all may come boldlie to the Lords supper they looke after nothing but this that they kneele which if they doe but observe be their life and religion then what it will it matters not Thus are the misteries of God prophaned in that they communicate with Papists other unclean people To draw unto a conclusion not onlie are their congregatioÌ„s said to be vnrightly constituted to be impure vnholy lumps but which is the depth of misery they have no meanes as they stand of reformation for the wholesome remedies appointed by the Lord to keep out unworthie persons to preserve pure and cleane Gods ordinances and to take away offences is not among them and here the reader may see what the reason is that they say the walls of Syon ly even with the ground and they have not scarse the face of a Church For if it be as these men report it is Babel no Bethel which they have erected I could name others of them which write the same things but we have enough to rayse our conclusion the which I will lay downe thus All true visible churches gathered and planted according to Gods word consisted in their constitution of Saints onelie But the Churches of England after Poperie were not so constituted but on the conirarie for the greatest number of prophane people even mockers and contemners of religion as Atheists Idolaters Sorcerers Blasphemers and all sorts of miscreants and wicked livers Therefore the Churches of England are not true visible churches gathered and planted according to Gods Word There is never a part of this argument that they can denye unlesse they will let fall their owne Principles For the assumtion I make no question but it will passe without exception and none of them will have the face to oppose it considering how generally the thing hath been affirmd stil is upon all occasioÌ„s both in word and writing Now that the Proposition may appeare as true also I will prove the same 1. by Scriptures 2. by reasons 3. by the testimonie of the Learned Of all which in the next Section SECT III. IF we take a strict view of all the Churches which the Lord hath constituted since the beginning of the world it will appeare that at the orderly gathering and planting the members of them were all holie and good I here intend of visible external holinesse and so farre as men may judge and not of that which is within and and hid from us For I doubt not but in Gods sight the purest congregation on earth might consist at first of good and bad and yet of men every person to be judged truely faithfull and sanctified untill any one by his iniquitie outwardly committed appeared otherwise Not to speake of the Church of Angells which God created in heaven and which were all holy and good till some by transgression fell away Neither of it in Paradise consisting of two persons both true beleevers After the fall the constitutioÌ„ of theâ— church in the covenant of grace was of good matter such was the Lords care to have the practise of it still preserved that he thrusted out Kain from the same for the great wickednesse which he fell into The Lord sealed not up with Abraham the seale of the righteousnesse of faith untill he left his Fathers house and that idolatrous place wherein he had lived which signifieth to us that all men must necessarily come out of the world and from worldlie corruptions or else they are uncapable to have a Church covenant in Christ confirmed unto them of God As for the visible Churches planted by the Apostles it is evideÌ„t that in their collectioÌ„ they consisted of such none other as were called by the Gospell confessed their sinnes beleeved walked in the spirit and separated themselves from the false state in which they stood members before Such a beginning had the congregations in Rome Corinth Galatia Ephesus Phillipp Colosse Thessalonica c. who dares affirm that there was one man or woman admitted a member at the constitution of any of these Churches which had beene known to be an il liver and did not first manifest sound repentance thereof The matereall Temple was a tipe of the visible churches under the gospel now we read that it was built from the verie foundation of costly stones of Cedars Algum Fiâ—â—e and the like choice and speciall trees and those all prepared aforehand hewed and perfect for the building so that neither hammer nor axe nor anie toole was to be heard in the house in the building of it no common or vile thing was used towards it neither might anie polluted person enter into it and offer untill he had repented and embraced the faith and been clensed from his filthinesse by the gates of the house were Porters sett to keep the unworthy out Vpon the Altar there might be offered no uncleane beast no nor that which was cleane having a blemish upon it What in all this was signifyed Surely this Such as will build a spirituall house for the Lord to dwell in must be a holy people for he is of that infinite puritie that
he will not vouchsafe his speciall presence unto profane companies which joyne themselves together and therefore let it be farr from all men to prepare a place for him with such trash or to defile his holy things with such uncleane persons or to offende his nostrels with the stench of such sacrifices The reasons upon which our proposition is grounded are these 1. All wicked men are forbidden expresslie by the word of God from meddling with his covenant or ordinances Now if men to escape temporall punishment are affraid to transgresse against the Lawes of worldly Princes Much more fearefull should they be to breake his who is the King of Kings and will inflict for it upon their soules and bodies torments eternallie 2. That which destroyeth a Churchâ— and makes it either to become a false Church or no church at all cannot be a true Church or be true matter wherof it is made but men visiblie wicked and prophane make the Church a Synagoge of Satan Babylon Sodom Aegypt and so to be spued out and removed 3. It is against sence and common reason that a Church should be constituted of vnholie People For as in a materiall house the wood and stones must be first prepared and then laâ—d orderlie in the building So in the spiritual men and women must by the word of God necessarily be first reformed before they are any way fitt to have any place therin 4. They which have no right to the holy things of God in the church are not to be admitted into it neither is that Church which is gathethered of such persons rightly constituted But men of wicked conversation have no right to the holy things of God in the Church and therefore that Church which is gathered of such is not rightly constituted 5. They cannot performe the services and duties of members for they are spirituallie dead If a master will not covenant with one to be his servant which hath in him no natural life much lesse c. 6. They have not Christ for their head and therefore cannot be of his bodie For as in the natural bodie there must be first a natural union of the parts with the head before there can be any action of natural communion between the head and the members or one member and another So in this spiritual bodie the members must be first united with Christ the head and become one with him before they can any way partake in his benefits or have communion one with another as members of the same body under him the head 7. They are altogether uncapable of this covenant For as a woman which hath been once a wife cannot mary againe with another man untill her first husband be deceased or she from him lawfullie divorsed so neither can these be maried to the Lord till they have mortifyed their corruptions and put the world and Satan away unto which before they were as it were maried 8. The Godlie and wicked are contraries guided and led by different causes Now two contraries are not capable of one and the same forme Thirdly for this we have the judgment of the learned also There must be saith Molierus a profession of true religton and obedience yealded thereto at least outwardly to become a member of the visible Church Beza saith He is rightly joyned to the church which separates himselfe from the wicked Paul calls the Romans Saincts saith Aretius to put a difference between their former estate wherein they lived which was unholy and impure and the condition to which they were now called Piscator affirmes The matter of a particular church to be a companie of beleevers Mr. Iacob in his definition of Christs true visible Church saith that those which joyne in a spiritual outward society or body Politick together must be a faithfull people Mr. Bradshaw saith they must be a people called and separated from the world and the false worship and wayes thereof by the word The same speaketh Mr. Attersoll and alleageth these Scriptures for it Gen. 4. 26 and 12. 1. Iosh 24. 2. 3 23. 7. 8. Num. 6. 2. Lev. 20. 24. 26. Ioh. 15. 19. Act. 2 40. 41. I could name many others which write the same thing but there is no use thereof Onelie it cannot be amisse to shew how the Church of England makes this an Article of her Faith as the Prelates have published it in her behalfe The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of Faithfull men in the which the pure word of God is preached and the Sacraments dulie be ministred according to Christs Ordinance in all those things that of necessitie are requisite to the same Thus the Proposition beeing proved and the assumption acknowledged to be true the conclusion must needs stand firme viz. that the Churches of England are not true visible churches rightly gathered and planted according to the Scripture and therefore by necessarie consequence lawfully to be separated from Before I end this point I will here lay downe some few Syllogismes intyrelie made up betweene the Inconformists and Conformists all concluding the forenamed position That Church which hath not a Lawfull ministery is not a true visible Church But the Church of England hath not a Lawfull ministerie Ergo the church of England is not a true visible church The proposition is affirmed of the Conformists as Burton Sutcliffe c. The assumption is granted by the Nonconformists as we have in the first chapter largelie shewed The true visible church of Christ is a society of beleeving and Faithfull people and a communion of Saints so say the Conformists but the church of England is not a society of beleeving and Faithfull people a communion of Saints thus write the Nonconform see p. 169. c. Ergo the church of Engl. is not a true visible church The true church is the Kings daughter described in Psal 45. But the church of England is not the Kings daughter so described Therefore the church of England is not the true church of Christ The Proposition is laid downe by the Conformists wherby they prove Rome a false Church The assumption is the Nonconformists For if they say the truth their members have not those qualities belonging to the Kings daughter neither their Preists nor people See pag. 15. 16. 39. 137. 169. 170. The true church of Christ is the Flock of Christ but the church of England is not the true Flock of Christ Therefore the church of England is not the true church of Christ. The proposition say the Conformists is undeniable Son 1. 6. 7. Act. 20. 28. Ioh. 10. 16. The assumption is proved by the Nonconformists Principles compared with Ioh. 10. 3. 4. 27. Christs flock heare his voyce and know it follow it but the Church of England submitting to an vnlawfull ministerie worship and discipline heare not Christs voyce nor know nor acknowledge nor follow it but
apprehension very harshe to say no worse for I have hitherto allwayes thought that there could be no better answering then by scripture I mean rightly all eaged applyed 3. As many wordes simply will not serve to vntye the knot of a syllogisme so neither will a few firmely knitt it except they be spoken to good purpose 4. For his upbraiding of us with ignorance about Logical formes I let it passe we are that we are and doe blesse God for that small knowledge of humane learning which we have received do think it a practise most unbeseeming any of the Saints to boast of their own ability much more to deride others for their lacks But this is to be observed generally that those which staÌ„d for bad causes doe after this sort still reproch their adversaries thus do the Papists the Protestants so the Protestants the Puritans and so they us as here in their other writings usually Now to the booke I thought once to have sett downe his answer before my reply as he hath done Mr. Iohnsons reasons before his answer but I perceived then that this treatise would be very large besides both their bookes are allready in many mens hands therefore I changed my mind only I doe desire the reader to peruse both their writings for so shall he profitt the more by that which I have here penned I find nothing here but some insinuating florishes of his owne skill in Logick and great contempt putt upon Mr. Iohnson for his vnablenesse therein Now my purpose is both here and in other places in a manner alltogether to passe-by his vntemperate speaches knowing that before this time he hath made his reckoning for them with God Besides it is a Christian part not to render rebuke for rebuke and a thousand times better were it to sustaine even a legion of reproaches then for a man by turning though but one to give cause of suspition that evill hath gott som part of conquest over him But I marvell why he saith that Mr. Iohnson in disdaine stileth them forward preachers For 1. He knew not the others heart 2. To my knowledge this is a terme commonly given and taken of them acceptably and in good part 3. The Apostle saith Love hopeth all things But it is evident Mr. Bradsh followed not his rule which is when things are doubtfull in themselvs to embrace the best He speaks often of their law but what law he means I know not whether the coÌ„mon provincial civil or statut neither what by the true intent of it and therefore until some freind of his doe set forth an exposition of it we cannot give to it any direct answ 2. Seing he grants to be a true minist there must be a qualificatioÌ„ according to the intent of the law we desire them in their next writing to tell us plainly whether all their Bb. Preists Deacons are so qualified if not then certainly Mr. Dayr Mr. Bradsh c. have much deceived the people For under the colour of some few among them qualified as they say they have cunningly sought to justifie all the rest and yet knew as it is cleare by this mans writing that their ministerie is false and unlawfull 3. Let the vanity of his speach be here observed their ministers are true if they bee c. which is as if a knowne harlot should say I am honest if I am qualified according to the word of God 4. He mistakes Mr. Iohnsons words for he doth not say that the Prelates are ministers of the Church Assemblies but of the Church of England Notwithstanding if there were need we could prove both by their profession and practise that the Bb. are the proper Pastors of all the Parishes in their Diocesses and the rest are curats only to them 5. If the ministerie of the Prelates belong not to any ordinarie assemblies then is the same Antichristian and so consequently is that which is derived from it And so much from their owne Principles we have formerly proved 6. He should have proved that that authority power which the Law gives to the Prelates is lawfull and good for if the same be otherwise as he knew in his owne conscience it is I doe not see for what reason he mentioneth it it having no weight of matter against us nor for themselves Answ 1. To let passe the name Priest and that likenesse which is betweene their ministery and the popish priesthood because others already have sufficiently handled the thing I doe deny that they are such Pastors and teachers as are spoken of in Ephes 4. 11 12. and have shewed the contrary from their owne principles 2. Note this mans lightnesse and inconstancy Sometime he stands for the justification of all their Ministers as here and in pag. 10. c. but otherwhile he will only defend those which are qualified according to the law and execute their office as page 2. 5. 94 c. Thus a man knowes not how to follow nor where to finde him As the way of an Eagle in the ayre such is the way of an adulterous woman It is hid and cannot be knowne 3. It is untruely affirmed that their priests and Deacons doe exercise the proper and essentiall ministerie of Pastors and Teachers For first most of them by their confession are idle bellied Epicures sencelesse asses and not one of twenty that can preach 2. By their law their Deacons are not to administer the Sacraments neither any of those which are full Priests but according to a Popish Leiturgy 3. None of them neither may nor doe exercise Church-governement though they acknowledge it an assentiâ—â—â— and proper part of their ministerie Answ 1. Our question is not of what should or may be in a Land but of that which we know is by law established and practised accordingly 2. I cannot thinke that the Prelates have permitted the ministery of some which never received ordination from the papists or themselves for though it may be possible that one or two may secretly passe without being made Priests by them yet that they should permit this thing I am perswaded he could never proove it 3. He often taxeth Mr. Iohns with absurdenesse but no man I thinke could passe him here For if it should be granted that there was a Prelate which for love or money permitted the ministery c. doth it therefore follow that the ministery of that Church is any other but of their Prelacie Priesthood and Deaconry as Mr. Iohnson sayth For what if some have as much permission under the Papacie is not their ministery then of Prelacy Priesthood and Deaconry Indeed so Mr. Bradsh doth inferre but with what wit or truth let the Reader Iudge 4. A man may be an unlawfull Minister though he never received the Bb. ordination viz. when he runs of his owne head and is not elected called and ordained by the free and common
The great wickednesse of them p. 170. 171. 172. The ministery of England taken wholy from Antichrist p. 11. Proved to be false p. 219. 222. Their manner of making ministers p. 12. 13. 14 What they are for qualification p. 15. 16. and practises p. 21 Men may be unlawfull ministers though never ordained by the Bb. p. 68. 215 Vnlawful ministers not to be communicated with in any thing they doe p 26. Reasons for it p. 27 Conversion of men to God no note of a true ministerie p. 64 The Ministers of England of one constitution p. 56 True ordinary ministery tyed to a particular Assembly p. 10. A roving unsetled false p. 9 Musick in the Church unlawfull p. 111 N. The profession practise of Nonconformists how they differ p. 205. 206 Their Minors and the Conformists Majors lead to separation p. 179. 180 Not so true to their grounds as the Conformists p. 38. 241 O. Oath ex officio why unlawful pag. 140 No Obedience must be yeelded to the Bb. Government p. 148 Five kinds of ordinary Ecclesiastical Offices only belonging to every true Church p. 3. 4 Officers not simply necessary for the publicke administrations in the Church p. 135 The Church may depose her officers p. 130 Offences how to be suppressed in the Church p. 130. 131. and why p. 168 The Officers of the spiritual Courts in England described p. 137. Their places Antichristian p. 1â—8 Brethren out of Office may teach publickly in the Church p. 54 Order and forme required in the collection of all true Churches p. 186 P. Pastors are all equal by Gods institution p. 3 These are wanting in the English Assemblies p. 11 Parsons Vicars c. unlawfull officers p. 44. 45 Parents ought not to bring their children to be Crossed in Baptisme and reasons for it p. 96 Patrons places unlawful p. 242. To be present at Idolatrous worship unlawfull p. 119. 120. And namely where the Ceremonies are used p. 98. 99 Power given to every particular Church p. 257 An essencial property there of p. 149 Preaching of the Gospell no part or property of the ministery in Fngland but a thing casual p. 259 The manner of preaching there p. 248. 249 Neither preaching nor administring the Sacraments argue a true mininistery p. 232 Not enough to be Professours p. 251 Their Preists and Deacons take their ministery from the Prelates and no where else p. 241 They have not the essencial ministery of Pastors and Teachers pag. 214 Prelates why worse then the Papists p. 82 Of Pollution by other mens sinns p. 208. 209 Q. None must be chosen into any office but such as are wel qualifyed for it and reasons thereof pag. 9. 10 13. Questions propounded with request to be answered p. 262. 263 c. R. Reading Preists described p. 38. Their ministery unlawfull and reasons for it p. 40. 41. A sinne to communicate in their ministery p. 42. What service they doe p. 44. The greatest number of the English ministers are such p. 43 Every Officer must be Resident in his place and why p. 10 Rome and England how like in Church Ordinances p. 261 The judgement of the Reformed Churches no good argument to prove the Church of England true by p. 188. 189 S. Sacraments prophanely administered in the church of England p. 105. 172 More Sacraments then Christ ordained administered in their Churches p. 259 Sacraments administred in private houses unlawfull p. 105 Service booke a devised worship and reasons for it p. 80. 81. 82 The Scribes and Pharisees misapplyed to justifie the ministery of England p. 231 Sidemens office unlawfull p. 138 Our separation why p. 196. 207 Lords Supper how abused p. 103. 104 Surplices unlawfull reasons for it p. 94. 95 Scriptures how abused in the Church of England p. 108 T. Toleraticir of sinne in the Church hurtfull and why p. 168 V. Visitation of the sick as used in England Popish p. 112 Bb. Visitation described p. 142 143 W. Widdowes an office in the Church and reasons for it p. 6 God hath prescribed a perfect platform how he wil be worshipped p. 72 Reasons why he should be worshipped according to the same p. 74. 75 The worship of the church of England is contained in the booke of common prayer p. 78 Churching of Women unlawfull and reasons for it p. 99 The word of God the only meanes to fitt men for Church-estate Z. True Zeal will not endure any thing of Antichrists p. 107 FINIS ERRATA For Eder read Elder p. 9. lin 13. For honestly read honesty p. 14. lin 25. For as read at p. 28. lin 20. For thelr read their p. 103. l. 23. For nor read not p. 131. l. 2. For Hierom read Hieron p. 161. l. 29. For number 38. in marg read 61. after Arrow ag Br. p. 224. * Our Apologie Mr. Bar. refutation of Mr. Giffard A treatise of the minist of the Church of England Mr. Robinsons Iustification of Separ Mr. Penry of the ministery of England An answ to Mr. Stone ‡ I mean only in the point of Separation for in other things he bath answered D Burg. fully and laid him flatt on the grouÌ„d ‡ Hooker Eccles Pol. pref p. 34. Whitg 2. Treat c. 1. div 2. p. 81 Sutclif treat of Disc c. 15 p. 165. D. Bils perpetual Goverm ch 15. p. 339. Bancr Surv. of Disc c. 33 p. 430 431 432. Loe Quaerimon Ecclesiae p. 59 60. Answ to the Petition by the Vice Chanc. Heads of Oxf. p. 15. D. Morton D. Burg. ð„ Repl. to D. Mort. Sect. 14. p. 31. Defence of Petition to the K. p. 103. a Dayr Treat of the Ch. p. 41. b Mr. Nichols plea of the innocent p. 33 34 c The scurrulous Libels published under the names of Lawne Fowler Bullard c. ‡ Serm. on Rom. 12. p. 65 66. Sold. Bar. Abridgm p. 23. Cartw. Catechis p. 315. 316. Rev. 16. 15 Ioh. 17. Chap. 42. 43. ‡ he speaks thus by false ministers Prov. 14. 15 ‡ Yet we beleeve their principles to be true is there be no Nonc that will defend them we will ð„ ð„ ð„ ð„ ð„ Magis veritas elucet quò saepius ad manuÌ„ venit Senec. lib. de ira Pag. 5. Pag. 232. Necessit discip 38 73 74. Offer coÌ„fer pag. 2. T. C. l. 1. p. 22. l. 2 pa. 3. p. 5. 15. Demonst discip 46 Mr. Bates 27. Informat froÌ„ Scott p. 28 29. Necessity discip 71. Defen ag Slaund of Bridg. 127. Forme ecclesias govern p. 123 124 125 c. Demonst discip 53 54. Inform. froÌ„ Scott pag. 30. Forme eccles Govern 128 129 c. Rom. 12 8 â— Cor. 12 28. 1 Tim. â— 17. Mr. Bate 89 c. Demons disc p. 56. Inform. from Scot. p. 13. Eccles gover p. â—â—9 M. Bates p. 117. Answ to Bancr ser p. 14. T. C. l. 1. 190. 2. Admo p. 61. T. C. l. 1. p 190. disc Eccles 119 Infor. Scott 31 demonst discip 61. 62. c.
A NECESSITIE OF SEPARATION From the Church of England prooved by the Nonconformists Principles Specially opposed vnto Dr. AMES his Fresh Suit against humane ceremonies in the point of Separation only Also Dr. LAITON Mr. DAYREL and Mr. BRADSHAW are here answered wherein they have written against us With a Table in the later end of the principal occurrents in this Treatise By IOHN CANNE Pastor of the ancient English church in Amsterdam Prov. 31. 8. 9. Open thy mouth for the dumbe in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction And plead the cause of the poore and needie Ioh. 13 17. If ye know these things happie are ye if ye doe them Printed in the yeare 1634. To every one that seeketh after the truth in sincerity Salutations THere are extant allready so many bookes in the defence of our cause which never yet received any answer that it hath been in my thoughts a long time not to enter publickly the lists of contention about it with any man but to imploy that smal portion which I have in the knowledg of holy things more peaceably otherwise Not with standing perceiving of late the general fame which was given forth of Dr. Ames his booke and namely in his answer to the point betweene the Nonconformists and us as that it was so learnedly and absolutely done that it gave all men satisfaction the Separatists only excepted and that no man would ever be able to make any sound reply therein vnto it I thought it requisite to take a thorow view thereof which when I had so don and saw the sleightnesse of it to say no worse I conceived with my selfe that this common bruit must need arise either from some ignorant people who cannot judge of things which differ or from such as have mens persons in admiration and so like the shadow will follow them where ever they goe be it right or wrong It is knowne to those which know the controversies betweene the formal Protestants in England and the Reformists that the Principles of the later by the former are said to be the direct and plaine grounds of Separation sundry arguments and reasons they allege for it as the reader may see in their several treatises This thing by the other is not only denyed but withall they proclame themselves the main refuters of the Separatists and doe affirme that they never saw any Prelate to confute their opinions any otherwise then by rayling words But how wel they have confuted us it will appeare in the following dispute unto which I referre the reader Only I thinke good in breefe to give him here a sight of most of their weapons which they draw out vsually against vs and whereby they indeavour to conquer and quel us quite 1. Vile calumniations and bitter scoffes proclaming us to the world to be Schismaticks Brownists Donatists c. and matching us many times with the most notorious Hereticks and blasphemers that they can thinke vpon of purpose to make our persons and profession odious to all men 2. Raysing up many manifest lies untruths gathering together the faylings of some particular persons which had walked with us casting the same as dung in our faces 3. Braggs and boasts of victorie a notable instance for this we have in a certaine preface made to Mr. Hildersh booke on Ioh. 4. the author of it tels his reader there that Mr. Hild. had the best in the controversie betweene him and Mr. Iohnson notwithstanding it is well knowne he never made any reply to that which the other had published against him although he was by divers earnestly desired to doe it and this I write from the report of honest and faithful witnesses who are yet alive and will not I am perswaded willingly relate any thing but the truth 4. Grosse contradictions in seeking to justifie against us the very things which by sound arguments and reasons in their writings against the Hierarchy they prove to be evil and vnlawfull and this we have manifested in the answ to Mr. Bradsh book 5. And in a word falsisications of our positions cōtinual begging of questiōs larg proofs for what was never doubted of but no proving of the main point in questiō either by scriptures reasons or any ancient sound writers These and such like arguments have they used hitherto against vs And it is no marvel that they are such for what better should we exspect from them who seeke to put out that light againe which hath beene by themselves cheifly revealed vnto many I know what I say and have good experiēce of this thing for there is not ten of an hundred which separate from the Church of England but are moved first thereto I speake of outward meanes by the Doctrines of the Nonconformists either in word or writing taught to the people And indeed vpon their grounds how can any one doe lesse then separate if his heart be tender against every sinne seeing they confidently affirme that their ministery worship and discipline is from Antichrist and in their Church are swarmes of Atheists Papists Erroneous Hereticall Sectaries Witches Charmers Murtherers Theeves Adulterers Lyars c. Moreover All Popery say they is poyson the roote stalke and branches and we cannot be said sincerely to have repented of the Idolatry or superstition whereby we or our forefathers have provoked the Lord unlesse we be ashamed of and cast away with detestation all the instruments and monuments of it Againe whosoever partakes in the sinnes of Rome are also under the same curse So that we cannot in any sort communicate with them in their errours unlesse we will beare them company in their destruction also These are their owne testimonies and we know they are true and therefore in obedience to God and care of our pretious soules we have left our vnsanctified standings in their Assemblies and through the Lords mercy to vs doe walke in the holy order of his Gospell although dayly sufferers for it of manifould afflictions Notwithstanding all these things offend us not for we know whom we serve and are most certaine if we watch and doe Christs worke still in his owne way We shall have a sure reward for it at the resurrection of the just And to speake now a word or two vnto such as are commonly stiled Professours of the Gospell whether vnconformable or not The thing truely which I most wish vnto them is tender consciences and that the Lords house and his ordinances may be deare to their soules and that they may be able to deny the profitts and pleasures of this life for if these things be in them and abound my hope is that by their judicious reading-over of this treatise there will follow much reformation When some men take a little Phisick they have their health by it soone restored but if the same and a great deal more be ministred to others of an other
that the Doctors ministers have their calling onely from the people yet what is this to the point betweene him and the rejoinder I may use his owne words truely the answere doth not looke towards the question Now marke all readers that have sence it is affirmed by Doct. Burgesse whereas the Nonconformists say the calling of their Bishops and consequently of the ministers is Antichristian that separation must herevpon necessarily follow How is this answered not at al if the proverbe be true as good never a whit as never the better For D. Ames speakes of a certaine ministerie which the separatist never to this day yet saw in their assemblies neither have they left any such If therefore he would have answered the rejoinders charge indeed he should have proved that those ministers whose calling doth essencially depend vpon the Bishops calling which have I say no other election nor ordination but what they had from them in a word which doe administer to the people only by that power and authority may notwithstanding for for all this warrantably by scripture be judged true ministers be lawfully cōmunicated with in their ministerie yet the Nonconformists grounds published against them all just true good This is the very point indeed for such ministers we have onely left and we know no other If there be let them be manifested to us tell us their names their places And if we finde by scripture their ministerie to be lawfull we will surely have communion with it as occasion serves Till then we purpose by Gods grace to live as we doe and to practise that which the Nonconformists professe to be the order and way which the Lord commaunds all his servants to walke in 4. If the Doctor speake here truth then have the Nonconformists greatly abused the princes and state of England in complayning so often to them against the Bishops and for what thinke you forsooth because the Prelats take away the powr of the people make ministers alone hēce none are either proved called or ordaind according to Gods word c. Now how doe these things agree together Is not this yea and nay It is so indeed But imagin there should be a Parliament againe in England and the Nonconformists should there petition that the calling of their ministers might not essentially depend any more upon the Bs. calling would not the Bb. have matter to persuade both houses not to harken unto them yea to reprove them sharpely for moving this thing seeing they confesse they have it allready But it may be they would say some congregations doe not ordaine their ministers to this the Prelates might reply that is then their fault For they give liberty and power to all alike and that is none at all I am sory they have laid such a snare whereby to undoe themselves But usually this is their course when they have any hope to have the Magistrates helpe for reformation they will truely declare the abuses and corruptions among them to the full afterwards nothing being amended when they are put in mind of their principles that is if such things be true then necessarily must they leave the church of England what doe they but goe quite from them againe as I shall in convenient place prove it clearely And is not that a miserable case which cannot be maintained but by grosse contradiction I may well here use the Doctors owne words Such turning winding and running against walls you shall seldome see an ingenious man to vse in a good case Lastly howsoever Doct. Ames thought to have crossed much the course of the Separatists yet if his words be understandingly weighed he hath justified them and made way to a generall departure from their ministerie For thus I reason None may heare or have any spirituall communion with such a ministery whose calling doth essentially depend vpon the Bishops calling But the calling of the ministers of the church assemblies of England doth essentially depend vpon the Bb. calling Therefore none may heare or have any spirituall communion with the ministerie of the church assemblies of England The proposition by good consequence is the Ds. own and herein he agrees with the rest of the Nonconformists For in opinion they all hold this thing as we have from their writings manifestd And whosoever should deny the assumtion mought with as much reason deny that there is any idolatrie at Rome although it is there both taught and practised therefore I thinke no man will have the forehead to oppose it But have not now the people of the Land good cause to looke about them seeing those who count themselves the only men to refute the Separists are come to that streigth as that they will not justifie it to be Lawfull for to joyne to any ministery in the land but to that which a man should not find among them if he sought all their Churches with candles as the Prophet speaketh I hope Gods elect yet there will take Salomons counsell which is to looke well to their going And thus much for answer to the Doct. reason now next we should speake of Mr. Bradshews booke but because I have been long vpon this chapter and the reply to it will be large I will leave it therefore till last and handle other things in the mean time SECT V. BEfore I end this point I thinke it convenient to answere breifly to a few objections which I have often heard some to make in the defence of their standing Object 1. Compassion towards the people constraineth many preachers to keepe their places For if they should not alas what would the people doe Ans 1. we may not doe any thing against the will and pleasure of God vnder pretence to shew mercy to others But we are bound to doe that which is good and honest by just and lawfull meanes that pitty which Christiās are to shew must be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rightly bowelled that is required of God both for the matter and manner of it 2. God needs no mans lie For he hath power enough to accomplish his owne purposes He may thus say If I be hungry I would not tel thee that is what need I thee or any thing thou canst doe I am Allsufficient 3. The truth is the people are not holpen by this meanes but rather hindered For if they ceased from preaching in their vnlawfull offices the godly generally throughout the land would seeke where Christ feedeth his flock and so their state would be much better then now it is Object 2. Though they will not plead to justify their ministery yet they hope to glorify God by preaching Ans so thought the Leper when he published abroad the matter of his healing but he not beeing called to do it sinned greatly therein therefore it is certaine that men doe then glorifie God when leaving their owne wisedome they doe whatsoever they are commaunded for as M. Perkins saith the
not true religion though she profâ—sse some true and sound doctrins in regard she maintaineth many lyes and vile errours Mr. Gilbâ—e a forward minister reckoneth up above seven score grosse points of poperie remaining in their Church and many others of them have don the like as I have in this treatise manifested And I think it would aske a better witt and head then ever Mr. Dayr had to proove that there are halfe so many corruptions in the religion professed by the Eng. Anabaptists From pag 41. to 51. there are certaine reasons as he calls them to prove the Church of Eng. and their Parish assemblies true visible churches As for the first of them I deny both the Proposition and Assumption He saith Whatsoever people or nation is within the dayly voice and call of God c. the same is a true visible Church This is untruelie affirmed as I have proved before and for his speaking of it againe it sheweth the more his ignorance in the way of God For will any wise man take Lyons Wolves Foxes c. into his sheepsould sow tares or darnel in his garden plant thistles or thornes in his Orchard The Church is the Lords speepcfowld his garden orchard c. and therefore if Mr. Dayr had been so wise as he should he would not have spoken so corruptly but have given rather counsell to keepe out vncleane persons considering what the Prophet saith Holynes becommeth thy house o Iehovah to length of dayes Againe we may perceive by his wordes that he understood not the nature of a visible Church For as to the constitution of it there belongs a holie people as the matter so also a uniting and coupling of them together which is the forme whereof it consisteth As the constitution of a common wealth or of a cittie is a gathering and knitting of people together in a civill Policie so the Constitution of the common wealth of Israel as the Church is called and of the cittie of God the new Ierusalem is a gathering and uniting of people into a spiritual Policie The forme of which Policie is order as the Philososophers acknowledged calling Policie an order of a citty which Order is requisite in every administration of the Church as the Apostle teacheth and cheifly in the collection thereof And therefore next unto Faith in God it is to be esteemed most necessarie for all holie societies This was one thing for which Paul rejoyced in the Church at Collosse as for their steadfast Faith in Christ so their Order also But Mr. Dayr will have his Church without Order or Forme and what is it then but a meere atâ—xie or confuse Chaos a state onlie fitt for the devills Goates to be in which desire liberty and not for Christ sheepe which are to make streight pathes to their feet He saith there lyeth no exception against the Assumption And why so because their Pastors and Teachers are true ministers Me thinkes the man should have beene ashamed to have begd so much at one time But to let his folishnesse passe we do deny them to be lawfull Officerâ— and have brought their owne hands against them for it Secondly he writes here against his brethren yea and I thinke against his owne conscience For the greatest number of their Bb. Preists Deacons are dumb dogs ignorant asses c. such as either cannot or through pride sullnesse bread and abundance of idlenesse Sodomes sinnes will not preach and therefore it is untruely said that the people generally of England are within the dayly voyce and call of God 3. The later part of his reason is wholie against himselfe sor whereas his wordes import that the people generally of England are impenitent sinners and unbeleevers it must follow necessarily that they are alltogether uncapable of any Church estate and so much we have formerly proved Were it not a ridiculous thing to set up a house with wood and stones and afterward to take Axes Sawes Hammers and other tooles to cutt saw and fitt them for the building yet such an unskilfull builder Mr. Dayr sheweth himselfe in his whole booke For hee will have idolaters adulterers theeves conjurers murderers and any villain in the Land to be placed in the Lords spirituall house and afterward will have meanes used to prepare them for the same Not to contend about the proposition of his second argument howbeit it is verie faulty I denie the assump viz. that the people of England doe injoy and outwardly submit themselves to the true worship of God for the worship which they have is affirmed of the Nonconformists to be antichristian and unlawfull but let us heare his reason If such as both in their life and at theire death served God with the verie same worship we doe have in that worship beene saved then iâ— the worship wee now have true divine worship But the first is true therefore the second If Mr. Bradshaw had found such a reason in Mr. Iohnsons writing he would surely have called him idle head crackt braind foole c. but I leave such terms to men of his intemperate spirit and doe thus answer 2. A Papist Arminian or Anabaptist may say as much and upon as good ground and who dares denie but manie of their religion have found mercie with the Lord must it therefore follow that their worship is good indeed Mr. Dayr logick so concludeth it 2 Men may serve God with an outward worship not agreeable to his word and yet be saved for who knoweth how infinitely good hee is to his poore creature 3. It is apparent this man had a very ill case in hand that could not tell how to maintaine it but by revealing the secret and hid consell of the Lord for I wonder how he came to know who in their worship have beene saved if he should say in the judgement of charitie he thinkes thus then his argument must be of an another fashion namely that he thinkes their worship is true for otherwise it will want shape and proportion 4. It hath beene the constant practice of the godly to proove their positions by the scriptures but it is likely he saw that there was no helpe for him there and therefore onely makes use of this reasonlesse reason His third argument is foolish and carnall and both parts of it false For first it is incident to the best and purest Churches upon earth to erre and to bee deceived and therefore their sentences and approbations must be examined by Gods word 2. If the reformed Churches doe justifie the English therein they condemne greately their owne practice for in theire constitution ministery worship and governement they are as opposite as light and darkenesse one to the other and so much the Nonconformists confesse 3. Seeing the Prophets Christ and his Apostles condemne their Church their case is never a whit the better though all men in the world speake well of it 4. The