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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A15082	A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*	White, Francis, 1564?-1638.; Laud, William, 1573-1645.; Baylie, Richard, b. 1585 or 6, attributed name.; Cockson, Thomas, engraver.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641.	1624 (1624)	STC 25382; ESTC S122241	841,497	706

hath at any time among vs beene infected with the Humaniformian errour by hearing or reading the Bible I maruell also why you ranke not the Apostles Creed among prohibited Bookes as well as vulgar translations of the Bible for ignorant people rehearsing the article He sitteth at the right hand of God might more easily imagine God to be corporeall than by reading Scripture because herein that which in one Text is deliuered metaphorically is plainely and spiritually declared in other Texts and the like is not done in the briefe summarie of the Creed But on the contrarie many of your owne Doctors formerly cited complaine of the brutish superstition committed by sundrie of your people in worshipping Images It may be they thinke not the Images which they adore to be verie God for Heathen people were scarcely so rude yet they may beleeue they are the seat of God and that some diuine maiestie and power is inhabiting in them or that they are diuine instruments to conuey graces and benefits to people which adore them and that in worshipping them they merit saluation and the like Now as for the letter of sacred Scripture if any rude person should sucke errour from thence the offence is taken and not giuen for the reading thereof is lawfull and holy But when Roman Masters impose adoration of Images vpon simple people if these be ensnared by that action the scandall is actiue and it is extreme presumption in the Roman Clergie to prescribe a forme of worship neuer approoued or commended but alwaies censured by holy writ which being omitted can hurt none but being obserued endangereth many Lastly you censure Tertullian for holding the Deitie to be corporeall but S. Augustine to whom you referre vs expoundeth his Tenet more fauourably affirming that he was no Heriticke in this point because he may be expounded as speaking figuratiuely and by Corpus a bodie he might vnderstand a thing substantiall reall immutable quia non est nihil non est inanitas non est qualitas c. he is not nothing an inanitie a qualitie or accident but abideth firme and inuariable in his nature Neither yet affirmeth S. Augustine either of himselfe when he was a Manichee or of Tertullian that they were lead into their error by reading the Scripture And it is more probable that the Manichees sucked their false opinion from the Gentiles rather than from the letter of the Scriptures because they wholly reiected the old Testament in which principally is found the description of the Deitie by figures of things corporeal neither regarded they Apostolicall Scriptures but coined a Gospell according to their owne fancie IESVIT More our Children and ignorant people are in the Catholicke Church often and plentifully instructed against such errors as by our Catechismes may appeare and particularly by Jesuits who make a solemne vow to keepe their Institutes specially about teaching the rudiments of Faith vnto common and ignorant people Hence it is that in townes where they dwell and villages about on Sundaies and holy daies besides their Sermons for people more intelligent they teach without faile vnto children and men of ruder sort the forme of Christian Doctrine and vse all industry by giuing rewards vnto children and by bestowing almes on poore people to make them willing and diligent in this learning In the English Church what is done for the instruction of the ignorant in their rudiments of Faith by Ministers and Pastors as I know not much so will I say nothing but only that the time they spend in the praises of sole Faith and about the secrets of Predestination and in long bitter inuectiues against our Doctrines misvnderstood if not purposely misrelated might in my opinion more profitably bee spent in declaring the Creed and prime Principles of Christianitie in plaine and Catechisticall manner ANSVVER How plentifull your instruction of ignorant people at this present time is I will not examine but it is not long since some of the best learned of your part affirmed That throughout the whole Christian state there was so extreame sloath concerning these things that one should finde many in all places expresly knowing no more concerning God and things Diuine than Pagans And Espenceus vpon the 2. Tim. 3. n. 17. pag. 118. saith Are children well and religiously educated yea according to that Propheticall derision Esay 65. Children of an hundred yeeres that is aged and decrepite Christians trust as much and yeeld as much to Saints as to God and thinke that God is lesse mercifull and harder to bee intreated than Saints I knew saith this Authour an antient and noble Knight who being demanded What hee beleeued concerning the holy Ghost confessed freely like 〈◊〉 Ephesians Acts 19. That he 〈◊〉 not whether there was any holy Ghost Also the Catechismes of Ledesma Bellarmine c. are extant wherein few instructions are found sufficient to preuent the former errour whereinto ignorant people may easily fall You descend in the next place to depresse the English Church accusing the Pastors thereof of negligence in teaching the Principles of Christian Faith and spending their time in the praises of sole Faith and about the secrets of Predestination and making Inuectiues against your Doctrine misvnderstood But you looke vpon vs with an euill eye and your Aspersions are enuious First the Canons of our Church impose catechising no lesse than preaching and the negligence of delinquents in discharging this duty is punishable by Ecclesiasticall censures Secondly the faith which our Ministers are to preach according to the doctrine of the Church of England is a liuely and operatiue Faith and this Faith alone and no other can iustifie and saue the soule Thirdly it is not lawfull for Preachers to spend their time in confuting Papists vnlesse they vnderstand their Tenet and are able to prooue the same to be wicked and false And although our Tenet concerning Predestination be no other than what Saint Augustine and his schollers maintained against the Pelagians and which hath beene holden Orthodoxall by the best learned in the Church of Rome it selfe yet our Church is most cautelous in preuenting offences which may ariseby vndiscreet handling of this doctrine and a most prouident restraint is made among vs in this behalfe by superiour authoritie I might here retort vpon the Aduersarie the abuses of his owne Church in all or some of these kinds but this were to wander from the disputation and to giue occasion of further excursion to one Cui verbosa lingua est cor vero obtenebratum as S. Cyril anciently spake IESVIT Besides it is easie for the Romane Church to keepe her children from beleeuing that Images be Gods or true liuing things or that any diuinitie or diuine vertue resides in them as may be prooued conuincingly in my iudgement by experience had of her power in this kind about a point more difficile For what may seeme more euident than that a consecrated Host

controuerted or doubtfull But personall succession may bee found in a false Church as appeareth by the Iewish Church in the time of the Pharisees and by the Churches of the East in the dayes of the Arrians and our Aduersaries affirme the Greeke Church to be vnsound notwithstanding it is apparently descended from the Apostles by a lineall succession of Bishops Cardinall Bellarmine perceiuing the weight of the former Argument departeth from the common opinion of other Papists saying That although personall succession alone or by it selfe is not a proper note of a true Church yet the absence thereof prooueth a nullitie of the Church in them which want it But if this be so then personall and locall succession must bee expuged out of the Calendar of Churches notes for all proper notes argue and demonstrate their subiect both 〈◊〉 and negatiuely also they demonstrate the same of themselues without the assistance of other things If therefore externall succession prooueth not a true Church except right Faith bee concurring and if as Bellarmine teacheth it rather serueth to prooue there is not the true Church where it wanteth than to argue a true Church where it is then the same is not proper and conuertible and consequently it is no essentiall marke because to bee proper and conuertible are of the being of notes according to the Cardinals owne description It is likewise remarkeable that the ancient Fathers doe not onely or principally vnderstand personall succession when they mention succession in their writings because they argue affirmatiuely from succession and not negatiuely onely Therefore Romists in this disputation shall doe well to begin with the questions which concerne Doctrine and prooue that they haue succession of Doctrine in all those Articles wherein they oppose other Churches before they mention locall and personall succession but the manner of these men is to obserue a contrarie proceeding and from the latter to conclude the former which is against good reason and against the Custome and manner of the ancient Fathers IESVIT For how can the Tradition of Christian doctrine be eminently and notoriously Apostolicall if the Church deliuering the same hath not a manifest and conspicuous pedigree or deriuation from the Apostles which is a conuincing argument vsed by Saint Augustine how can we thinke that we 〈◊〉 receiued manifestly Christ if wee 〈◊〉 not also 〈◊〉 manifestly his Church It is a Principle of Phylosophie Propter quod vnumquodque tale illud magis But the name of Christ his glory his vertue and miracles are to the world famously knowne from age to age by reason of the Church and her preaching that in her first Pastours saw them with their eyes Ergo This Church must needes be more famous more illustrious as able to giue fame vnto the being and Doctrine and actions of Christ. ANSVVER I haue shewed in the former Section that the visible Church is principally called Apostolicall because it imbraceth the doctrine of the holy Apostles And euerie Church is Apostolicall so farre foorth onely as it consenteth with the Apostles in Doctrine Sacraments Inuocation and in that which is substantiall in Ecclesiasticall policie And in a precedent Section I haue declared That the visible Church may at some times bee more or lesse Apostolicall holy c. But it is not at any time simply or principally Apostolicall because it hath externall personall succession Occham a famous Schooleman and some others with him affirme That a true and Apostolicall Church may consist of a few lay people and if all the Prelates and Clerkes throughout the world should become hereticall God may raise vp Pastours either extraordinarily or else hereticall Bishops 〈◊〉 Pastours the Church may be reformed by them But to the Argument I answere as followeth First if the same were wholly granted nothing could bee concluded against the Church of England from it because the Bishops and Pastours of this Church are able to exhibite a Pedigree or deriuation both of their Ministerie and Doctrine from the Apostles 1. Of Ministerie in that they haue for substance the same descent of externall Ordination which the Romane Church hath 2. Of Doctrine because they maintaine the Primitiue Faith and accord in the same with the soundest part of the Catholicke Church in all ages And where we may seeme to discent from the Antient the same is either in things humane and adiaphorous or in matters which were not fully discussed or in points which were not deliuered by an vnanimous consent or in things which are reprooued by plaine demonstration of holy Scripture and wherein the Fathers permit libertie of dissenting and the Papists themselues take the like libertie Secondly the Iesuits Interrogation How can the Tradition of Christian Doctrine be eminently and notoriously Apostolicall if the Church deliuering the same hath not a manifest and perspicuous pedigree or deriuation from the Apostles is answered this may be performed two waies 1. By the historie and monuments of the Primatiue Church whose descent and pedigree from the Apostles was perspicuous 2. The same may be made manifest by the Scriptures of the Apostles which are diuine and authenticall Records of all Apostolicall Doctrine and contain in themselues many liuely and effectuall Arguments proouing to such as read and examine them with diligence and vnderstanding that they are the Doctrine of the holy Ghost and consequently the worke of the Apostles And the maiestie and lustre of heauenly Doctrine is such that if it be propounded by meane and obscure persons it will appeare illustrious euen as a rich Iewell if the same be deliuered by a poore Artificer doth manifest his owne worth and therefore the sequell of the Iesuits Argument is denied for it followeth not because the Doctrine of Christ must be illustrious that the Church which deliuereth the same must be alwaies so Thirdly S. Augustine in the place obiected Epist. 48. confuteth the Donatists which confined the Church vniuersall to one countrie only excluding the rest of the world from the communion thereof against this error he saith How can wee thinke that we haue receiued Christ made manifest if we haue not also receiued his Church made manifest From hence nothing can be inferred but that we receiue the true Church not only at one time or in one place but at all times and in all places where it is manifest and that Christ is reuealed and made manifest by the Doctrine of the Apostles and that this Doctrine must be preached although not at one time yet successiuely throughout the whole world But all this which S. Augustine speaketh being granted prooueth not that the true Church shall be notoriously eminent and visible at all times neither doth this Father say that Christ cannot bee manifest but by such a Church only as can lineally deriue her pedigree by Records and Tables from the Apostles And howsoeuer Papists boast of their owne pedigree yet when their

quantitie of the worke 2. Cor. 9.6 Fourthly the reward is certaine and infallible yea more certaine than any temporall benefit which man presently inioies in the world Gen. 22.16 Fiftly there is in all good Works a dignitie not of desert or equiparance either in respect of God of whom we can deserue nothing or in respect of the reward but only of grace diuine similitude goodnesse and honour Phil. 4.8 Sixtly the reward of good workes is called a crowne of righteousnes 2. Tim. 4. 8. because it is bestowed on them which exercise righteousnes and in regard of their righteousnes but merit of condignitie and righteousnes are 〈◊〉 tstings as appeareth in Angels and Infants which haue righteousnes and are crowned with glorie and yet they doe not merit Seuenthly the antient Fathers maintained no merit of condignitie but by the word Mereri they vnderstood either to obtaine or to impetrate and this is manifest because they applie the word Merit not only to iust men but also to sinners saying that they merited Repentance remission of Sinnes the calling of Grace c. Eithtly the prime part of mans iustice is the remission of his sinnes and the righteousnes of Faith for without these there can be no true and liuing morall righteousnes and where these are found good Workes are neuer wanting IESVIT SIxtly Their errours against Baptisme the gate and entrance into Christian life whereof they deny the vertue to sanctifie men and the 〈◊〉 thereof for infants to whom they grant Saluation without Baptisme ANSWER ALthough some persons haue been Christians before their Baptisme as S. Augustine saith of Cornelius Euen as in Abraham the justice of Faith was precedent and the seale of Circumcision followed after so likewise in Cornelius spirituall Sanctification by the gift of the holy Ghost went before and the Sacrament of regeneration in the lauer of Baptisme succeeded yet notwithstanding the ordinarie gate and entrance into Christian life is Baptisme S. Ambrose siue Prosper d. vocat Gentium lib. 1. cap. 5 The beginning of true life and righteousnesse is laid in the Sacrament of Regeneration that looke where man is new borne there also the veritie of Vertues themselues may spring Neither do Protestants deny the vertue and efficacie of Baptisme to sanctifie men but according to the holy Scriptures Eph. 5.26 Tit. 3.5 Gal. 3.27.1 Pet. 3.21 Acts 22.16 Rom. 6.3 and the antient Church they teach and maintaine That this Sacrament is an instrument of Sanctification and remission of sinnes The Liturgie of the Church of England in the forme of administration of Baptisme hath these words Seeing now D. B. that these children be regenerate c. Wee yeeld thee heartie thankes most mercifull Father that it hath pleased thee to regenerate this infant with thy holy Spirit to receiue him for thine owne child by adoption c. And master Hooker saith Baptisme is a Sacrament which God hath instituted in his Church to the end that they which receiue the same might therby be incorporated into Christ and so through his most pretious merit obtaine as wel that sauing Grace of Imputation which taketh away all former guiltinesse and also that infused diuine vertue of the holy Ghost which giueth to the powers of the soule their first disposition towards future newnesse of life Zanchius hath these words When the Minister baptiseth I beleeue that Christ with his hand reached as it were from heauen besprinkleth the child baptised with water with his bloud to remission of sinnes And in another place The holy Ghost mooueth vpon the water of Baptisme and sanctifieth the same making it to be a lauer of Regeneration Caluin saith Per Baptismum Christus nos mortis suae fecit participes vt in eam inseramur By Baptisme Christ hath made vs partakers of his death that we may be ingraffed into it And in another place If any man demand How can infants which want vnderstanding be regenerate I answer Although we are not able to fadome or vnfold the manner of this Worke of God 〈◊〉 it followeth not from thence that the same is not done And the same author with others of his part maintaine the former Doctrine concerning the efficacie of the Sacrament of Baptisme and they differ only from Lutherans and Pontificians First In that they restraine the grace of Sanctification only to the elect Secondly In that they deny externall Baptisme to be alwaies effectuall at the very instant time when it is administred But our Aduersaries must be ouer rigid if they shall censure questions of this nature which are touching circumstance so hardly as to make euery such difference a fundamentall errour especially because some among themselues as the Master of the schole reporteth affirme the same Thirdly whereas the Obiector addeth that Protestants denie the necessitie of Baptisme for Infants granting them Saluation without Baptisme he must vnderstand that necessitie is either absolute or else of precept and supposition We verily maintaine the latter necessitie of Baptisme for the saluation of Infants against the Pelagians and Anabaptists and the contempt and wilfull neglect of this holy Sacrament is damnable to such as are guiltie of this contempt and our Church prouideth diligently that all Infants if it be possible may receiue Baptisme before they depart this life But if it fall out ineuitable that new borne babes descending of Christian parents cannot receiue this Sacrament not onely Protestants but the antient Church it selfe and discreeter Papists haue thought it more pious to hope of Gods indulgence towards such infants than to aggrauate his vengeance with such rigour and extremitie as the Trent Fathers and their disciples do First the antient Church allotted onely two seasons in the yeare for Baptisme which they could not in their charitie haue thus restrained to set times if they had beene persuaded as moderne Papals are Secondly Gerson Biel and Caietan with many other famous Pontificians affirme That Infants departing this life without Baptisme may be saued by the speciall Grace of God and by the prayers and faith of their parents And the words of Thomas Elysius a late Pontifician are very remarkeable saying Opinio quam tenent Theologi plurimi Ecclesia secundum communem legem est satis dura onerosa non conformis preceptis Christi quae sunt suauia leuia The opinion of many Diuines which is commonly holden by the Church concerning the damnation of Infants deceasing without Baptisme is ouer hard and rigid and in no sort conformeable to the precepts of Christ which are sweet and easie And the same Authour Non est haeretica cum non sit contra Fidem Catholicam sea ei conformis maxime secundum fidei pietatem This opinion which propugneth the saluation of Infants vnbaptised is not hereticall for it is conformeable and not

rewarder of them that seeke him F. I asked How then it happened as Mr Rogers saith that the English Church is not yet resolued what is the right sense of the Article of Christ's descending into Hell B. The English Church neuer made doubt that I know what was the sense of that Article The words are so plaine they beare their meaning before them Shee was content to put that Article among those to which she requires subscription not as doubting of the sense but to preuent the Cauills of some who had beene too busie in crucifying that Article and in making it all one with the Article of the Crosse or but an Exposition of it And sure the B. thinkes and so doe I That the Church of England is better resolued of the right sense of this Article than the Church of Rome especially if she must be tryed by her Writers as you trie the Church of England by Mr Rogers For you cannot agree whether this Article be a meere Tradition or whether it hath any place of Scripture to warrant it Scotus and Stapleton allow it no footing in Scripture but Bellarmine is resolute that this Article is euerie where in Scripture and Thomas grants as much for the whole Creed The Church of England neuer doubted it and S. Augustine prooues it And yet againe you are different for the sense For you agree not whether the Soule of Christ in triduo mortis in the time of his death did goe downe into Hell really and was present there or virtually and by effects onely For Thomas holds the first and Durand holds the latter Then you agree not whether the Soule of Christ did descend really and in essence into the lowest Pit of Hell and place of the Damned as Bellarmine once held probable and prooued it or really only into that place or Region of Hell which you call Limbum Patrum and then but virtually from thence into the Lower Hell to which Bellarmine reduces himselfe and giues his reason because it is the common opinion of the Schoole Now the Church of England takes the words as they are in the Creed and beleeues them without further dispute and in that sense which the antient Primitiue Fathers of the Church agreed in And yet if any in the Church of England should not be throughly resolued in the sense of this Article Is it not as lawfull for them to say I conceiue thus or thus of it yet if any other way of his Descent be found truer than this I denie it not but as yet I know no other as it was for Durand to say it and yet not impeach the Foundation of the Faith F. The B. said That Mr Rogers was but a priuate man But said I if Mr Rogers writing as he did by publike Authoritie be accounted onely a priuate man c. B. The B. said truth when he said Mr Rogers was a priuate man And I take it you will not allow euerie speech of euerie man though allowed by Authoritie to be printed to be the Doctrine of the Church of Rome This hath beene oft complained of on both sides The imposing particular mens Assertions vpon the Church yet I see you meane not to leaue it And surely as Controuersies are now handled by some of your partie at this day I may not say it is the sense of the Article in hand but I haue long thought it a kind of descent into Hell to be conuersant in them I would the Authors would take heed in time and not seeke to blind the people or cast a mist before euident Truth least it cause a finall descent to that place of Torment But since you hold this course Stapleton was of greater note with you than Rogers is with vs and as he so his Relection And is it the Doctrine of the Church of Rome which he affirmes The Scripture is silent that Christ descended into Hell and that there is a Catholike and an Apostolike Church If it be then what will become of the Pope's Supremacie ouer the whole Church Shall hee haue his power ouer the Catholike Church giuen him expressely in Scripture in the Keyes to enter and in Pasce to feed when he is in and when he hath fed to confirme and in all these not to erre and faile in his ministration And is the Catholike Church in and ouer which he is to doe all these great things quite left out Belike the Holy Ghost was carefull to giue him his power Yes in any case but left the assigning of his great Cure the Catholike Church to Tradition And it were well for him if hee could so prescribe for what he now claymes But what if after all this Mr Rogers there sayes no such thing as in truth he doth not His words are All Christians acknowledge he descended but in the interpretation of the Article there is not that consent that were to be wished What is this to the Church of England more than others And againe Till wee know the natiue and vndoubted sense of this Article is Mr Rogers Wee the Church of England or rather his and some others Iudgement of the Church of England F. But if Mr Rogers be onely a priuate man In what Booke may wee find the Protestants publike Doctrine The B. answered That to the Booke of Articles they were all sworne B. What was the B. so ignorant to say The Articles of the Church of England were the publike Doctrine of all the Protestants or That all Protestants were sworne to the Articles of England as this speech seemes to implie Sure he was not Was not the immediate speech before of the Church of England And how comes the subiect of the speech to be varyed in the next Lines Nor yet speake I this as if other Protestants did not agree with the Church of England in the chiefest Doctrines against which they ioyntly take exceptions against the Romane Church as appeares by their seuerall Confessions Nor did the B. say That the Booke of Articles onely was the Continent of the Church of Englands publike Doctrine Shee is not so narrow nor hath shee purpose to exclude any thing which shee acknowledges hers nor doth shee wittingly permit any crossing of her publike declarations Yet shee is not such a Shrew to her Children as to denie her Blessing or denounce an Anathema against them if some peaceably dissent in some particulars remoter from the Foundation as your owne Schoolemen differ And if the Church of Rome since shee grew to her greatnesse had not beene so fierce in this course Christendome I persuade my selfe had beene in happier peace at this day F. And that the Scriptures onely not any vnwritten Tradition was the Foundation of their Faith B. The Church of England grounded her Positiue Articles vpon Scripture and her Negatiue Refute where the thing affirmed by you is not affirmed in Scripture nor directly

compassed about with ignorance and infirmitie and at some times better or worse qualified than at other Also the true Church in firmissimis suis in her firmest members is 〈◊〉 holy for life because the Holy of Holiest sanctifieth and purgeth the same by his Word Sacraments and Grace Eph. 5.26 Tit. 3.5 6. But it is not absolute in holinesse Iam. 3.2 1. Ioh. 1.8 nor yet in euery age so remarkeably holy that it is thereby able to conuert Infidels And the true Church hath not in all ages the gift of Miracles and the pretext of Miracles is common to deceiuers Math. 24.24 25. 2. Thessal 2.9 Apoc. 13.13 And Suares the Iesuit saith Haec adulterari possunt ita exterius fingi vt non sint necessaria signa verae Fidei Miracles may so be adulterated and externally feigned that they may not be necessarie signes of Faith And Canus speaking of Popish miracles and legends saith Nostri pleriquè de industria ita multa 〈◊〉 vt eorum me pudeat taedeat sundrie of our men do so wilfully coine many things in their report of Miracles that I am ashamed and irked of them IESVIT That the Roman is the One Holy Catholicke Apostolicall Church from and by which we are to receiue the Tradition of Christian Doctrine These grounds being laid it is apparant that the Roman Church that is the multitude of Christians spread ouer the world cleauing to the Doctrine and Tradition of the Church of Rome is the One Holy Catholicke and Apostolicall Church ANSVVER The former grounds according to your deliuerie and exposition of them are partly false and partly ambiguous and captious and therefore it cannot be made apparant from them That the moderne Roman Church is the One Holy Catholicke and Apostolicall Church from which we are absolutely to receiue the whole Tradition of Christian Doctrine IESVITS 1. Argument There mnst be alwaies in the world One Holy Catholicke and Apostolicall Church that is a Church deliuering Doctrine vniformely therby making them credible Vniuersally thereby making them famously knowne to mankind Holily so making them certain and such as on them we may securely rely Apostolically so making them perpetually flow without change vnto the present Christianitie in the Channell of neuer interrupted succession of Bishops from the Apostles And this Church must either be the Roman or the Protestants or some other opposit to both Protestants cannot say a Church opposite to both for then they should be condemned in their owne judgement and bound to conforme themselues to that Church which can be no other but the Graecian a Church holding as many or more Doctrines which Protestants dislike than doth the Church of Rome as J can demonstrate if need be ANSVVER There must be alwaies in the world a Church One Holy Catholicke and Apostolicall that is A number of Christians beleeuing and 〈◊〉 professing Christianitie to the sounder part wherof the properties of One Holy Catholicke Apostolicall belong But there is not alwaies in the world an Hierarchiall visible Church consisting of Prelates and people vnited in one externall forme of Policie and profession of Religion vnder an vniuersall Pope to which alone these foure titles are proper or principally belonging And there may bee an Orthodoxall Apostolicall Church consisting of a small number of inferiour Pastors and right beleeuing Christians opposed and persecuted by the Hierarchiall part of the visible Church euen as in the raigne of king Manasses and other idolatrous kings of Iuda when Idolatrie preuailed among the Priests and generall multitude there was a remnant of holy people worshipping God according to his word and not defiled with the impietie of those times Now concerning the disiunctiue part of the Iesuits Argument which is This Church must either be the Roman or the Protestants or some other opposite to both It is answered The Protestant Church is that true and Orthodoxall Church which is One Holy Apostolicke and a sound part of the Catholicke For although the same may be supposed to haue had beginning in Luthers age yet this is vntrue concerning the essence and kind and is true onely touching the name and some things accidentall For in all ages and before Luther some persons held the substantiall articles of our Religion both in the Roman and Graecian Church And by name the Graecians maintained these articles in common with vs That the Roman Church hath not primacie of Iurisdiction Authoritie and Grace aboue or ouer all other Churches neither is the same infallible in her definitions of Faith They denie Purgatorie priuate Masses Sacrifice for the dead and they propugne the mariage of Priests In this Westerne part of the world the Waldenses Taborites of Bohemia the Scholers of Wiclife called in England Lollards maintained the same doctrine in substance with the moderne Protestants as appeareth by the confession of their Faith and by the testimonie of some learned Pontificians And concerning certaine differences obiected to haue beene betweene them and vs we shall afterward shew that the same are no greater than such as haue beene antiently among the Fathers and there are as great differences betweene the Elder and moderne Romists in many passages of their doctrine But now on the contrarie if it were so that we could not for certaine ages past nominate or assigne out of historie any other visible Church besides the Roman or Grecian yet because right Faith may be preserued in persons liuing in a corrupt visible Church as Wheat among Tares 1. King 19. 11. and because God hath promised there shall be alwaies in the world a true Church hauing either a larger or smaller number of professors if Protestants be able to demonstrate that they maintaine the same Faith and Religion which the holy Apostles taught this alone is sufficient to prooue they are the true Church IESVIT It is also most manifest and vndeniable that Protestants are not such a Church nor part of such a Church since their reuoult and separation from the Roman seeing confessedly they changed their Doctrines they once held forsooke the bodie whereof they were members broke off from the stocke of that tree whereof they were branches Neither did they departing from the Roman ioine themselues with any other Church professing their particular doctrines dissonant from it Ergo The Romane is the one holy Catholicke and Apostolicall Church c. ANSVVER Bold words It is most manifest and vndenyable miserable proofes they changed their Doctrine they once held c. If the Pharisees had argued in this manner against Saint Paul or the Manichees and Pelagians against Saint Augustine the one would haue told them That it was no fault to forsake the leauen of Traditions to imbrace the Doctrine of the Gospell confirmed by the Prophets and the other would haue pleaded most iustly That it is a vertue and honour to forsake errour and to imbrace veritie Gods people are commanded vpon a