of bread and wine which neede not be much Pro. Whatsoeuer you shall say it is but too much in a needelesse contention You haue beene told that wee Kneele not neither bee to Kneele in regard of bread and wine Schis Verily no sound Protestant of any knowledge will affirme it but rather presently consider that if kneeling be instituted for reuerence in regard of bread and wine it must be either because they represent the body and blood of Christ though remaining bread and wine touching their substance And then for like reason we may worship the crucifixe and image of God as the Papistes doe Pro. True Schis Or this reuerence is done to bread and wine because Christ is reallie bodily and locally though inuisiblie present in them either by transubstantiation according to the mind of the Papists or of consubstantiation according to the heresie of the Lutherans Pro. The Church of England and members of the same haue in equall detestation both of the Transubstantion of the Papists and the Consubstantiation of the Lutherans Schis Then it must needs follow that if wee abiure these heresies of Papists and Lutherans we must also abhor idolatrous and superstitious Kneeling their daughter and Nurse Pro. Wee abhorre idolatrous and superstitious kneeling from our hearts but not kneeling Our kneeling is neither superstitious nor idolatrous Schis We neuer heard of kneeling before transubstantiation was hatched in the sygnagoue of Antichrist so that immediatly after Pope Innocent decreed transubstantiation Pope Honorius decreed kneeling Therefore if Harding doth graunt that it is not well to kneele but in regard of a real and bodilie presence a sound Protestant should infer But I detest your reall presence Therefore Iabhorre your idolatrous kneeling Pro. We are to regard not so much who ordained kneeling at the first or when it was established and why as who commands it now and the vse thereof which we take to be verie good profitable and necessarie What though Harding doth say that wee doe not well to kneele but in regard of a reall and bodilie presence doe wee therefore ill which kneele hauing no such regard And though you tell vs a thousand times wee doe ill in kneeling because the Papists in kneeling doe adore the the bread and wine doe wee therefore ill which abhorre the Papists both doctrine and adoration Therefore whereas Harding doth grant that it is not well to kneele but in regard of a real and bodily presence and yee Schismatikes doe say and maintaine that wee doe ill to kneele not because wee doe but for that the Papists in regard of a certaine perswasion they haue of a bodily and real presence doe adore Bread and wine wee hold both them and you to bee much out of the way them for condemning our kneeling because it is not in adoration of bread and wine you for condemning our said Kneeling which is without all regard of such adoration SECT 12. Whether kneeling at the holy Communion bee a shew of euill and the greatest scandall Schis WE are to abhorre kneeling Pro. What all kneeling Schis I meane kneeling at the Lords Supper as in my proposition is expressed Pro. Why so For hitherto haue you giuen no sufficient and satisfying reason why wee should abhorre it Schis Because we abhorre the heresies of worshipping of Images Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation Pro. Though the heresies of worshipping Images Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation be detestable yet is not our Kneeling to be abhorred vnlesse you can proue vs guilty of those heresies or the like which we abhorre no men more Our gesture of Kneeling cannot be ill when our doctrine is good as the same gesture could not be good if our doctrine were vnsound and sauor of those heresies which you cannot truely say it doth You haue afore beene told that the gesture of it selfe is neither good nor euill but to bee esteemed according to the doctrine which they professe and hold that vse it a site as we vse it in the Church of England verie comely and commendable a gesture as Papists abuse it most horrable Schis Not in respect of those heresies onely but also because it is the shew of the greatest euils that euer were it is to be abhorred Pro. Those euils would be shewen Schis It carieth a shew first of Idolatrie in worshipping a God made of a piece of bread Pro. Artolatrie is the euill of the Romish Church there is neither that euill nor a shew thereof among vs who acknowledge no breaden God much lesse giue any shew of adoration vnto bread and wine The shew of such euils wee condemne euen as the euill it selfe wee abhorre You haue bin answered againe and againe that our adoration in Kneeling is to our God in heauen not to his creatures on earth nor to Christ in them or transubstantiated into them which because wee do not the Papists afore mentioned viz. Harding would not haue vs to Kneele because we adore not what they doe which did you conscionably remember would remoue this vncharitable suspition out of your head that our Kneeling carrieth a shew of Artolatrie grosse Idolatry This therefore is but an vniust surmize of yours What is the next euill euen the great euill that it beareth a shew of S. Euen our communion with Antichrist rather than with Christ. P. To communicate with Antichrist is not reuerently and religiously to kneele at the holy Communion but to communicate in the doctrine and superstitious worship professed and vsed in the Church of Rome Herein wee communicate not with the Papists nor they with vs. They say that our Protestants are Amalakites and Heretikes our doctrine heresie and that they which so cal it and that in the worst part that can be and in the worst sence that euer was doth rightly and iustly and that we are Paganis Turcis deteriores worser then Turkes and Pagans We said of them that their religion is rebellion their faith is faction their doctrine false and erronious their seruing of God superstitious and idolatrous all their doctrine and worship blasphemous and derogatorie in an high degree to the glory of God Hence haue they separated themselues from vs and our Churches by open recusancie and wee haue departed from them and their offices which they call Apostacie and vs Schismatickes for so doing These things were they duly considered as they ought seriously me thinkes it should be far from the thought of any man professing the same doctrine with vs and detesting the religion of the synagogue of Rome to imagine that we in kneeling doe communicate with that whorish Church who are not so seuered in doctrine and worship as for our worshipping of God and doctrine without all hope of atonement or reconciliation separated in body but in affections much more This notwithstanding were their doctrine and worship as good as the signes of their deuotion commendable whom we do communicate withall in a dumbe ceremony and in different if to
the example of Christ by our Kneeling and therefore in Kneeling do not sinne S. Setting vp of Images in Churches onely to be Laie mens bookes is by authority condemned because they are as stumbling blockes in the way of the blind So that they haue beene are still and will bee here-after worshipped by ignorant persons Is not Kneeling as scandalous How can it then be iustified P. Iustly haue Images those Lay-mens bookes by authority beene condemned I thinke you will affirme as much Gods word is directly against such Images Now could you make good your words that Kneeling is as scandalous now as Images sometime were in our Churches I would be of your minde that it is to bee condemned as Images were That Images the Images I meane that you speake of are such stumbling blocks I doe read both in the bookes of God and otherwise in most godly and approoued writers old and new but that kneeling at the Communion is as scandalous as Images and therefore to be condemned is doctrine proceeding newly from the braine of of you Schismaticks neuer afore heard of among the people of God SECTION 13. Whether the Kings commandement to Kneele maketh Kneeling to be no sinne S. IT is said that the Kings commandement taketh away scandall in things indifferent P. What say you herevnto S. It may be auerred that this is a begging of a questioÌ„ except it be proued by the word that Kneeling may bee without sinne that though it be an institution of man contrary to the example of Christ a signe of coÌ„munion rather with Antichrist his synagogue of Rome theÌ„ with Christ and his church it haue no proportion with Sacramentall eating and haue beene is and will be bread-worship P. That wee may kneele at the Communion with-out sinne and that the said Kneeling is neither a meere institution of man nor contrary to the example of Christ nor a signe of any Communion at all with Antichrist his synagogue nor hinders a whit the Sacramentall eating of Christ nor finally with vs euer hath beene is or I hope shall bee any Bread-worship hath sufficiently beene prooued by vndeniable and strong arguments And therefore go on prooue that it may not by the authority of the King be enioyned S. Suppose that in it self it were as indifferent as was eating of flesh sacrificed to an Idol not in the Idols temple but at a priuat table where no weake ones were in the Apostles time yet how doth the Kings coÌ„mandement take away scandall from Kneeling in publicke places doth it make all so sure that none can be scandalized or if that cannot be doth it take away guiltinesse from the scandalizer as if all the blame of scandalizing were in the Kings commandement Surely it must be in the former or else in the latter it cannot be P. Our Kneeling euen in the publicke churches is no scandalizing but accidentally as any good euen the best thing may bee And therefore neither doth the King offend in commanding nor wee offend in obeying and so is there neither scandall nor scandalizer nor any iustly scandalized by kneeling for neither doth Kneeling nor the Kneeler nor the King commanding to kneele deserue any blame You take things for granted which will not be confessed Here is no offence giueÌ„ in any respect at all S. By scandalizing a weake brother perrisheth Of whose blood the scandalizer is guiltie as Ioab was of Vriabs blood notwith-standing the Kings commandement P. What of this Insinuate you all Kneelers to be like bloody Ioabs our King commanding vs to Kneele to like Dauid when hee commanded that Vriah should bee murdered O vndutifull vngodly and inconsiderate imputations S. Here his Maiestie knowne to be of a gentle disposition and to haue learned yea professed better things in Scotland is most-humbly prayed to take the word King as spoken in imitation and vnder-stood of Cantor who knowne to be of a violent disposition did carry matters in the conuocation and published Canons not orderly and fully concluded as some of his Suffragane Prelates reported P. His Maiestie liued in Scotland a long-while and many years among Puritanes yet was neuer any Puritane him-selfe The most-reuerend Father whome you tearme in derision Cantor did neuer any thing about the publike affaires of the Church but vpon good aduise and lawfull consent nor published any Canons for the ordering of the Church but the soueraigne person of the kingdome euen his Maiestie him-selfe and that according to the Lawes and Statutes of the Realme and vnder his great Seale ratified them all These reproachfull words do but wound his Maiestie in the sides of his officers Go to your matter leaue theÌ„ if you haue any more to say S. It is impossible that the Kings commandement should make all so sure that none can bee scandalized the general ignorance of the people the dispotitioÌ„ of the ignorant vnto superstition the old leauen of Poperie not purged the multiplying of Papists all well considered P. All these thinges considered Kneeling at the communion vses according to th'ordinance of the Church of England and none otherwise is no Scandall giuen S. Nay rather it is likely that by the commandement the Scandall should bee the greater especially in regard of the 27. Canon where ministers are commanded vnder paine of suspension not wittingly to administer the Sacraments to any but to such as Kneele P. The Canon is necessary and to the preseruation of vnitie and the preuenting of hatefull confusions which otherwise too-offensiuely would spring spread ouer the kingdome Dangerous maladies must haue eating and biting medicines Gods ministers may thanke you Schismatikes for this seuere discipline They that wil not receiue Gods sacraments but as they list must by seuerity be driuen to take theÌ„ as they should It is a good rule in Phisicke stay the beginnings The Philosophers do say how Modâ—eus error in principio fit maximus in fine That error which at the last was greatest at the first was but a little one in Diuinitie we finde the same to bee most true For the foulest and most horrible heresies sprang but of petty Schismatikes at the first They must in time meete with cut of those Shismes that would not haue the Church pestered and molested with heretikes This very discourse of ours may put the world in minde what hideous horrible fancies this Recusancie of yours to Kneele leauing the vnion of the Church and Communion with vs in the sacraments because yee will not kneele hath already ingendred Your errors here-about are foule and monstrous and yet worser are behinde for the preuenting whereof we are on all sides from the King to the lowest and meanest subiect to set to our helping hands Neither be you nor any other men to thinke that punishment seuere which is rather necessarily for a publike good then willingly inflicted S. May not simple and superstitious persons take occasion thus to argue Why should Kneeling be
chargeth Christ and his Apostles with want of reuerence which is absurd R. Not a whit For Christ and his Apostles did that which the custome both of those times and of their country made common and vsuall your selfe hath confessed And therfore both he and they did that which was both ciuill and comely Againe our Sauiour might do that surpassingly wel which we cānot Any action beseemed his person because without sin He graced all his gestures no gesture graced him But we alas we are sinfull wretches repairing vnto the Lords boord partly like supplicants humbly suing for the remission of our sinnes partly to shew our thankfulnesse for the comforts and benefites we haue receiued and hope to bee partakers of through Christ. And therefore haue iust cause euen most humbly to kneele as we do THE SECOND OBIECTION S. KNeeling in the receiuing the Lords Supper hath an apparance of euill R. From the commendation of Sitting how quickly are you come to the open condemnation of Kneeling at the L. table And a wonder it is if he that once falleth into a debasing of holy established orders in a church come not to an vtter detestation of them in the end Take heede in time If I should reason thus Sitting in the receiuing the Lords Supper hath an apparance of euill therfore to be auoided would you allow this argument for good No more doe I approue your kind of reasoning And yet sooner will I iustifie mine then you shall proue your Antecedent M. Beza saith that Kneeling in receiuing the signes hath a shew not of euill as you say but of godly and Christian veneration And this saying is true Did but an earthly King or Prince offer vs pardon for our transgressing his temporall statutes would it become vs or carried it a shew of reuerence to his Maiestie to receiue it Sitting And when grace and pardon for all our sinnes in the Sacrament of Christ his Supper is offered vnto vs by the seales of bread and wine carieth it a shew of euill to receiue it kneeling It is called the Sacrament of thankesgiuing euen for most heauenly benefites vnto Almightie God and with what better action of the bodie can wee testifie our thankfulnesse then on bended knees We offer vp our selues euen our soules and bodies an holy and liuely sacrifice vnto our God and is there any gesture that better becommeth such Priests then Kneeling Is this mysterie of so great waight as the open contempt thereof brings damnation and shall the receiuing thereof with the greatest shew of reuerence be counted if not an apparant euill yet an apparance of euill May the knee be bent at the name of Iesus and may we not kneele at the receiuing the holy Sacrament of his bodie and blood but we either do ill or seeme so to doe Must we humble our harts which is the greater not bend our knees which is the lesse Must we humble our hearts and not expresse our inward humiliation by outward Kneeling S. We may not R. Why so S. For it carrieth an apparance of Bread-worship Therefore to be auoided 1. Thes. 5. 12. R. You must iudge of our Kneeling by our doctrine as we iudge of the Papists kneeling by their doctrine we would not neither could we iustly condemne the Papists for their kneeling were not their doctrine most heretical and blasphemous Neither ought you to condemne our kneeling at the Cōmunion except you can shew the doctrine of the church of England is for the adoration of bread and wine Suscipitur ab artolatris Eucharistiae Sacramentum flexis poplitibus The Bread-worshippers receiue the Sacrament Eucharisticall on bended knees and here in England the faithfull take it with the same gesture of bodie whereat some are offended Sed meo iudicio nullâ de causa but in my iudgement without cause saith a learned man a stranger For both of them adore they that is the Papists the bread these viz. the faithfull in England not bread but Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heauens I am sure there is not a syllable in the Communion booke that importeth any shew of this euill you speake of and our doctrine is as all the world doth know how to reserue cary about lift vp or worship the Sacrament of the Lords Sup. Supper is contrarie to the ordinance of Christ S. Doctrine and practise must go together otherwise we pull downe with one hand that wee build with the other As he that teacheth that an Idol is nothing in the world and yet sitteth at Table in an Idols Temple destroieth with his act that he built with his speech 1. Cor. 8. 4. 10. R. That the practise of our church concurreth not with her doctrine is a reproch laid very vniustly vpon a most religious nation should much vex your heart that euer you had such a thought of a Church most famous renowmed thorowout the world for the puritie of doctrine which shee doth professe and accordingly practise And therfore either make your words good or confesse your great ouerslip THE THIRD OBIEGTION S. IT is a monument of Idolatrie deuised by man of no necessarie vse in the seruice of God Therefore to be remoued Deut. 7. 25 26. 12. 3. 2. King 18. 4. Isa. 30. 32. 2. Cor. 6. 17. Iude 23. R. Be intreated I pray you to marke whither your affections not guided by discretion haue caried you At the first you said not that Kneeling at the Communion was an euill action but not the best nor after that how it was in it selfe euill but An apparance of euill But now forsooth it is a monument of Idolatrie which is euill indeed Thus one euill thought bringeth another Take heede of them in time else bring you to worse Besides this assertion is as voide of reason among men as it is of truth in religion For as to Kneele at the holy Communion is no Idolatrie nor so much as apparance thereof in sound Diuinitie so is Kneeling not in the predicament of substance but of Site And therefore no Monument by the rule of reason But be it a Momument is our kneeling a Monument of Idolatrie Kneeling at the Masse is grosse and palpable Idolatrie Is therefore kneeling also at the Communion a Monument of Idolatrie Last of al let Kneeling be of neuer so impious and detestable vse among Papists yet is the same gesture of good necessarie vse in our church For hereby as by the seemliest behauior for so religious a seruice we testifie the earnest and most zealous deuotion of our souls when we do either pray or praise God as we do both at the receiuing the sacrament So that were it a Monument of Idolatrie as it is nothing lesse deuised by man yet because it is of so good and necessarie vse in our seruice of God euen in your owne iudgement and conscience and that from these your words it is not to be remoued And
kneele at our chiefest prayers and praisings of God bee a communicating with the Church of Rome wee would also most willingly communicate withall in their worship and doctrine And we wish and pray that as we conuert some of their vsages to God his glory so they may be conuerted vnto the same doctrine and worship among vs that with our heart and forme aswell of doctrine and worship as ceremonies wee may glorifie God together in this world In the meane while wee shall and as much doe dislike your sitting who are like vs in the maine points of doctrine as we like of their kneeling in it one nature considered who are most vnlike vs in doctrine and the true worship of God For we hold it better to come neere the superstitious Papists who make showes of great deuotion at Kneeling than to prophane persons in sitting at the communion a signe of no deuotion or of very smal especially in these dayes wherein wee are to feare more the ouerflowing of Atheisme then th' encrease of superstitiō When wee haue no communion with Antichrist in Idolatrie and false doctrine why should you refuse to cōmunicate with vs Christians because of our kneeling S. It was the greatest scandal that euer was or can be P. Kneeling no not at the communion is not any scandall in our Church sitting is And if Kneeling bee it is a scandall taken not giuen but your sitting is a scandall both giuen and taken and therefore the greatest scandall whereas the other is none at all But seeing you haue sayd it show why kneeling is the greatest scandall that euer was or can be S. It is so in regard of those euils it doth occasionally teach or confirme P. If our doctrine as it doth not teacheth no such euils and heresies Kneeling of it selfe doth not so much as occasionably teach or confirme them But our doctrine is most pure and sound no Papist can shew no Schismatick will say no aduersary what-so-euer shall euer proue the contrary You are answered for this point haue you no other thing to say why our Kneeling is so scandalous yea the greatest scandall that euer was or can be S. Yes it is so also in regard of multitudes indeed the most part of the people either not sufficiently instructed in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments and therefore carried with a blind zeale learned by tradition or corrupted more or lesse with the leauen of Popery P. We are sure and all the world will witnesse that Puritas doctrinae viget in Anglia true religion flourisheth in England the people at no time was euer so diligently and soundly taught both what to beleeue how to liue as they are at this day and for these many yeeres together haue beene in our Church If multitudes not-with-standing remaine yet blind and ignorant it is the fault either of their owne dulnesse that cannot or negligence that will not or sinnes that they shall not profit by the word The care of their gouernors hath beene great and singular that they might grow vp and increase in all godly knowledge and affections especially in the Sacrament Therefore if any or many either be not sufficiently instructed in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments or be corrupted more or lesse with the leauen of Popery what is all this to the church of England which both desireth and ordereth so farre as in her is that all may be instructed that sufficiently in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments and also both teacheth the doctrine of Christ very substantially and administreth the Sacraments most sincerely Lay not the faults and corruptions of the multitude vpon the Church of England and her lawes S. The vulgar people for a great part in regarde of their weakenesse are endangered by this gesture either groslie to commit the idolatry of Papists or to haue a superstitious estimation of the outward elements P. The vulgar people would neuer haue those thoughts did not either our aduersaries the Papists poison them with Popish conceits cleane contrary to the purport meaning of the church of England or you Schismatikes enforme them that we either commit Idolatry or make show that we so do by our Kneeling but all of you most falsly and slanderously The gesture as it is appointed doth endanger them no whit but it is partly the Papists suggestions that they must not Kneele vnlesse they doe adore the Sacrament which yet are the signes of the most ignorant among them and partly our schismaticall whisperings that the people do adore or make show of adoring bread and wine when they do Kneele that doth endanger the people and trouble vs all making the multitude for a great part eyther open Recusants because they may not adore or dangerous sectaries in that they will not Kneele which they thinke to be idolatrous adoration S. The rather encline the people to Popery because by the 21. Canon it is prouided that no bread and wine newly brought shall be vsed but first the words of Institution shall bee rehearsed when the said bread and wine be present vpon the Communion table As if the words were incantations and the table like an Altar which sanctifieth the sacrifice P. Kinde and naturall children will lesson and extenuate their mothers fault but neuer aggrauate her offences much lesse raise slanders of her when shee deserues none Yee are most vnkinde to your Mother the church of England which hath conceiued and tenderly fed you with the food of Gods word and refreshed you with the heauenly comforts of his Sacraments This our mother and the holy Sacrament will haue vs put in minde both who is the author of those holy mysteries and why they are instituted and all to raise vp in vs a more reuerend respect of those sacred signes when shee doth nothing but well and to our singular good shall we vnkindly turne her good directions and instructions into euill and say she is faultie when she deserueth praise shee would haue vs to approach vnto the holy Supper as to an heauenly banquet you belike would haue vs thether to repaire as vnto a common feast Is shee that inspireth vs with diuine thoughts or you rather which receiue or would haue vs to resort vnto the supper as vnto a common feast shee enioying the diuine words of institution you leauing them quite out as if we were but at a ciuill and homely dinner or supper faultie And what herein doth she contrary to Gods word or differing from the example of Christ who took bread and wine and before hee distributed them or his Disciples did eate gaue thanks and shewed what they signified and why instituted Tell what in the words of our booke is erronious What in the forme superstitious If you cannot be ashamed to tearme such diuine wordes Incantations which are holy instructions ministring necessary and diuine meditations vnto our selues and making the table yea our Altar and all there-vppon most