further nor otherwise D. B. The publisher to the Reader Section 2. Novv having vveighed and considered vvith my selfe the great ignorance and errors vvherevvith those of the separation aforesaid are and have bene lately carried avvaye namely to affirme That all that stande members of the Churches of Englande are no true Christians nor in state of salvation And such like most vngodly sentences vvhich vvould grieve any Christian soule once to thinke on much more to publish to the vievv of the vvorld And vveighing likevvise vvithall the greate vveakenes of manie Christians among vs vvho through vvant of experience or due consideration of things as they are may easelie by theyr delusions be dravvne avvay into those errors vvith them I haue therefore Asvvell in hope of reclaiming of the said parties from their said extremities vvhich novv I iudge the most of them for vvant of meanes see not As also for the staying of others from running into the same grievous excesse vvith them novv published this discourse to the vievv of the vvorld vvhich hath line buryed in the hands of some fevv Many being desirous of it vvho by reason of the largnes in vvriting out of the same could not obteyne it VVhere vnto I am so much the rather induced For that the Reasons herein by Maister Iacob alleadged haue by Gods blessing reclaymed many from their former errors and satisfied others vvho have bene doubtfull and subiect to fall into the same In the examining of vvhich Discourse I shall desire the Reader to observe a fevv notes for his better proffiting in the same 1. And First among the rest to note this as a token of the strange and obstinate dealing of Maister Iohnson and others of them viz. That heretofore vntill such time as the Argument hereafter mentioned was framed against them they neuer denyed That the doctrine and profession of the Churches of England vvas sufficient to make those that belâ—eued and obeyed them to be true Christians and in state of salvation But alvvayes held professed and acknovvledged the contrarie As by the publike confessions of themselves namely Maister Barrovv Maister Penry and Maister Iohnson himselfe in this discourse mentioned in Pag. 167. 168. appeareth But novve they seing That if they should acknovvledge the said Doctrines and profession to be sufficient to salvation That then this conclusion vvould of necessitie follovv that those that hold and practise them are a true * * VVhich yet Mr. Penâ—y coÌ„fessed see Pag. 168. Church And so theyr ovvn former iudgements should be crossed Rather I say then they vvould be dravvne to that They novve stick not to deny their ovvne confessions vvhich they thinke to be the faifest vvay for them and like vnnaturall children so vehemently hate contemne and dispise theyr mother vvho bare them nourished and brought them vp from vvhose brests they sucked that svveere milke of the meanes of euerlasting life and salvation if euer they had any tast of it at all Beeing notvvithstanding not abashed novve in a desperate manner in the hardnes of theyr heart to affirme ‡ ‡ VVhich appeareth generally by denying the Assumption of Mr. Iacobs particularly in these Pages 29. 139. 140 141. That none by the doctrine of the Churches of England can be a true Christian or saved But that they all worship God in vayne Are abolished from Christ Are Babilonians Idolaters departers from the faith worse then Infidels And such like most vnchristian sentences making them all one vvith the Church of Rome c. VVhich impious affirmations vvould cause any Christian heart to lament and bleed for grief VVhose vnchristian sentences and false and deceiptfull Reasons the very naming vvhereof vvere sufficient to refute them are most plainly taken avvaye and cleane ouerthrovvne by these brief Replyes of Maister Iacob vnto every of them vnto vvhich I referre yovv Onely this I adde vvith all vvhich I vvould desire might be noted That if they continevv in their former confessions That the Doctrines and profession of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation As they ought it being the very truth Then are they all in a most grievous schisme in so peremptorily condempning and separating from such true Christians and Churches And if they deny it as they have begonne to doe Then doe they runne headlong into an intollerable sinne and extremitie vvithout all vvarrant of Gods vvord And besides give iust occasion to be called fearfull * * VVhich name they vniustly give to those that iustly for this theyr extremity forsake their fellovvship Apostates in so vvholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth vvhich before they imbraced and acknovvledged The Aunswer All that the publisher hath published here is eyther some foolish conceits of his owne or some frivolous cavils and malicious calumniations against the truth and vs that professe it His conceits of his ovvne knovvledge and our ignorance of his ovvne strength others vveaknes of reclayming and satisfying many by publishing this discourse of the force and plainenes of Mr. Iacobs Replyes c. I omit according to the rule which saith * Prov. 26.4 Aunsvver not a foole according to his foolishnes least thou also be like him But his cavils and calumniations against the truth and vvitnesses thereof being also objected by Mr Iacob in his Replyes I have aunswered in the Treatise following according to the counsell of the same Wisdome which saith †Pro. 26.5 Aunsvver a foole according to his foolishnes least he be vvise in his ovvne eyes The Aunswer therefore to that which here he obiecteth of our assertions and sentences of our former and present acknovvledgement of the Church of England her profession doctrines members Assemblyes c. see it in the Treatise following Pag. 7. 16. 20. 22. 33. 60. 63. 73. 82. 86. 94. 103. 106. 116. 120. 147. 158. 162. 170. 177. 188. 196. 200. c. And here note withall 1. That in all these things we are still of the same mynd as heretofore Mr Barrovv Mr Penry my self and the rest of vs have ben So far are we from crossing denying or any way altering our former judgement and confession as he falsely pretendeth For which see Pag. 177. 178. 179. 180. 181. 2. That we do not hate contemne and despise theyr Church which he calleth the Mother that bare vs c. but inasmuch as we have ben members thereof heretofore in which respect she was then in deed our Mother but now do see her to stand in adulterous estate we do therefore plead vvith her that she may take away her fornications out of her sight and her adulteryes from between her brests And we go out of her that we may not partake in her sinnes and that we receyve not of her plagues Both which things we do at the commaundement of God and by warrant of his word wherein he hath straitly charged all his people thus for to walk Hos
a true Reason it maketh Maister Cranmer c. denyers of the faith and not true Christians also For maintenance whereof you have here not one poore vvord at all Tovvching that you say we cannot deny but graunt that we departe from and deny the faith in our Ministery I have told you hovv in my ansvver to your 7. Reason Also see my Replyes to your 2. Exception Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 8. Reason NOw that all your shifts fayle you come with Ifs and And 's If the Apostle meane this and If he meane that c. As if the Apostles * words were not playne 1 Tim. 5.8 so as the meaning may easily be discerned of anie that is not wilfullie blynd Read and mynd in all such cases and Scriptures that which is written Prov. 8.9 with Act. 28.26.27 But you say the Apostle may very well meane both such as neglect their houshold against convenient Christian providence and such as do it against the light of conscience and natures instinct If the first then you deny the Assumption that is the Apostles owne saying And thus againe you give the holy Ghost the lye If the latter then you deny the Proposition And then you must prove that thus they do it For who knoweth not that such will not for this case any more then you for yours confesse that they do it against light of conscience c. Nay will they not say as stiflie as you that this concerneth not them And moreover is not that also which is light in one mans conscience often darke in another mans by one meanes or other See it in an example One of your professors in London runneth to all your Sermons and Lectures from place to place throughout the City every day and every houre By this meanes he neglecteth his familie You tell him he doth it against light of conscience and natures instinct He denyes it and saith he doth it not so but as being perswaded in his conscience that he must first seek the kingdome of God and that then all outward things shal be cast to him and his Herevpon in a blynd zeale he doth as aforesaid Now tell me Is not this man notwithstanding within compasse of the Apostles rule here spoken of Yet will he stand against it for his case as stiffe as you for yours yea and alledge for himself more colour and show of Reason then you do or can for your Hierarchy c. So then both the Proposition and Assumption stand firme against you and therefore also the whole Reason Now here againe being loth belike to give them any rest you call for Mr Cranmer c. As if they were your Pages to wayte at your heeles on every call and to serve your turne at every need whether they will or not Never were poore men in all the world I think made such a stale But they serve you accordingly They let you commaund and go without For every where you commaund their names and yet alway go without their fellowship As I have shewed before in particular Pag. 40. 41. Towching your graunt let the Reader note here againe that you yeeld you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery c. You say you have before told vs how But what you have said before is there aunswered and taken away And besides for vs it is sufficient that it is done Look you vnto it how you do it It may be some of you do it of ignorance some of knowledge against the light of your owne consciēces some for feare of men some for love of the world some of contention or vaine glory some for their profit pleasure ease honour quyetnes or the like Thus I deny not but in the maner of doing there may be among you in these respects a divers measure and proportion of sinne But this concerneth not vs but your selves to look vnto and that greatlie Chap. 15. The Ninth Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THey which do otherwise teach and condiscend not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines all such by the rule of the Apostle are to be separated frō and therefore cannot in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 But such is the case of all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their ministery worship and Church constitution As appeareth both by the severall points of their false doctrine * Points of false doctrine els where noted and by the proofes “ Pag. 61. 63. 135. c. here before alledged out of their owne Canons Articles Iniunctions c. Therefore all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their Ministery worship and Church constitution are by the rule of the Apostle to be separated from neither can in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 9. Reason THis your last Reason is Separate from them that teach otherwise then the truth 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 We holding those Articles do teach diverse things in the Hierarchy c. that be otherwise then is truth Therefore we must be separated from and consequently we are no true Christians This is a fallacy also Separate from such Ergo separate wholy See my 1. and 2. Reply afore to the third Exception also the Aunswer to the two last Reasons of all the 7. and 8. We graunt therefore so farr forth as we hold otherwise then trueth so farr separate from vs but not any farther at all not wholy or absolutly And so the Apostle here meaneth Wherefore briefly Because you prove vs not wholy to deny the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Ievves Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 Therefore you ought not vvholy to separate from vs Neither to condemne vs vvholy as abolished from Christ no more then Maister Cranmer Ridley were vvith their Congregations in King Edwards tyme. And thus our Assumption in the beginning standeth firme The doctrine in the booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian. Cōclusion The contrary vvhereof is such a Paradox as hath not ben heard of till this day All reformed Churches in Europe doe and have alvvayes held othervvise Themselves †M. Barrow Mr. Penry Mr. Iohnson heretofore have acknovvledged and professed it The holy Martyrs that lived in King Edvvards dayes and dyed in Queene Maries dayes must be othervvise cut of from Christ vvho vvere true Christians by vertue of this doctrine and the practise thereof or verily not at all But now it is vvonder vvhat extreame passion hath driven them to this denyall Surely they see that it conuinceth flatly as indeed it doth their peremptory separation And therefore rather then they vvould
AN ANSWER TO MAISTER H. IACOB HIS DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministery of England By Francis Iohnson an exile of IESVS CHRIST Though myne Adversary write a Book against me would I not beare it vpon my shoulder would I not bynde it for crovvnes vnto me Iob. 31.35.36 Printed in the Yeare of our Lord. 1600. The Title and inscription of Mr Iacobs book because there is often relation vnto it hereafter both in the Preface and in the Book it selff therefore I thought good here to insert it at first Thus it was word for word as followeth A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND Ministery of England Written in two Treatises against the Reasons and obiections of Mr Francis Iohnson and others of the separation commonly called Brownists Published especially for the benefit of those in these parts of the lovv Countries MIDDELBVRGH By Richard Schilders Printer to the States of Zealand 1599. To the Christian Reader grace and peace from our Lord Iesus Christ THere came out of late good Reader two books from one Mayster Henry Iacob a Priest of the Orders of the Prelates The first was agaynst his Lord Mr D. Bilson now Prelate of Winchester concerning Christs suffrings and descending into Hell The latter agaynst me by name and others like mynded tovvching the Church and Ministery of England Now although the Prelates could not well be offended at him for publishing the former agaynst the doctrine of theyr Church senig * In K. Edvv tyme about 50. Yeares synce long before him Mr Carlill a learned man had both publikly disputed in Cambridge and printed a book agaynst that error of Christs descension and that with great approbation of the most godly and learned at that tyme Yet belike fearing the worst and knowing the hatred of the Prelates how deadly it is he did presently after send forth his other book in defence of the Churches and Ministery of England So as whatsoever displeasure his Lords the Prelates conceyved agaynst him for the former there was now some hope that they might sooner be appeased vpon view of the latter Or howsoever it should fall out yet what like lyer way could he take to make all sure on his side then by the first book to get the forward Preachers and professors to take his part agaynst the Prelates and by the other to have both them and the Prelates themselves to stand with him agaynst vs Yet I heare some of his owne coat give out that he hath dealt very simply in publishing so weak and raw a Treatise against vs. And true it is in deed that his Treatise is such In the publishing whereof no wisedome hath he shewed at all vnles it be in this that he hath thus let all the world see that against the errors of the Church of England there is plenty of Scripture to be had and vrged but not a jote to be found for defence of theyr VVorship Ministery constitution c. For if you mynd it †Yet I deny not but he hath scattered some errors also in that book in his book against Bilson about the question of Christs suffrings and descending into Hell you shall see proof after proof readily brought from the word of God And on the contrary in his book against vs not onely no such proof but in stead thereof eyther his owne assertions and comparisons obtruded vnto vs as oracles or the Names of Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley and other dead men opposed to the word of the living God or putting over his cause to the State to be defended himself being not able to speak one poore word in defence thereof c. Such is his latter book and such are the grounds of it A very great and straunge difference between two books set out by one and the same man the one straight after the other and both of them in matter of Religion If I had first published these Replyes and Aunswers which passed between vs no doubt but many would have had a prejudice thereof and all would have thought I had done it purposely to shew the weaknes of that cause and falsehood of that Ministery c. But now when he a member of that Church yea a Minister of it even a Priest of the Prelates creation hath first published them albeit the same thing be done yet it is both without all prejudice and pretended by him for defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Be it that he hath not done it so well as many would have it yet it is the best he could And what if he thought by this meanes eyther to stirre vp some others more able herevnto or at least to shew his owne good will Doubtles where there is want of ability a mans good will is to be accepted And why should any then misinterpret so good a meaning If any of the Prelates or others of that Church like it not they may learne by his example iff not to lay theyr hand on theyr mouth yet to try if they can plead the cause any better For worse I suppose they would be ashamed to do it I had thought in this case I should never have seen any more absurd writing then Mr Giffards and Bredvvels But now to Mr Iacob may they well give place And iff any can be found of all the Priests in England more sencelesse then these let such for theyr worthynes as standerd bearers be Prelates of theyr chiefest Seas And as for Mr Iacob seing he hath done his best let all men be content to beare with his simplicity who otherwise might well note his folly for vndertaking ius how the defence of that which yet in deed he leaveth altogether naked and helples By the title of his book it seemeth he thought to carry away the simple Reader who eyther could not or would not mynd what should follow after it In the book it self he thinketh his plea to be very good if he can say for the Ministery and other abominations of theyr Church They are errors but not fundamentall sinnes against the Second commandement but not vtterly abolishing from Christ c. And this is the summe of his whole book A plea which he counteth vnaunswerable Yet in deed no other but such as openeth a wide doore for all maner errors and sinnes to be receyved and nourished amonge them which themselves shall presume not to be fundamentall c. So that now theyr Church is ready when they please to entertayne agayne the offices of Abbats Monks Fryers Nonnes Cardinals c. the doctrines and practise of Auricular confession Prayer in an vnknovven toungue Prayer for the dead Seven Sacraments Holy vvater holy ashes holy palmes holy bread Creame spittle oyle and salt in Baptisme Consubstantiation Deniall of the cup to the lay people Denyall off vvarres and Magistracy in Christians Denyall of Mariage in Ministers c. For these and many mo errors of the Papists Lutherans Anabaptists it is like they hold not to be fundamentall And therefore
3.12.15 amōgst many other which plainly proveth Ansvver that many errors so they be not of obstinacy may be built by a Christian vpon the fundation Christ Iesus yet be a true Christian still For which see further Maister Iacobs answer in pag. 192. Againe there are errors simply fundamētall which of their owne nature cleane abolish frō Christ such are the errors of the Arians concerning the Deitie of Christ of the Anabaptists concerning his humanitie of the Papists cōcerning Iustification by workes praying to trusting in Saincts and such like which directly raze the very foundation But that any one or all of the errors in the churches of Englād are of this force as you would seem to hold by all your 9. Reasons is most impious and vngodly to affirme And as Maister Iacob very well noteth in his answer to every one of them You therby overthrow the Martyrs in Queene Maries dayes from being christians who held the very same corruptions in their ministery worship c. which is now held in England But say you the Martyrs saw ne further Then you confesse against your selves that our errors doe not simply abolish from Christ as you every where affirme most vngodly especially in defence of your 7. Reason But that if men in these things see no further they are in the same estate with the Martyrs Now if you would have your Reasons hold you must prove the churches of England all conuicted in conscience which I hope you will not go about to doe Thus much concerning the nature of our errors whether they be of obstinacie or against the fundation directly which is the Second note I desier to be observed The Aunswer This second note of his is as foolish as frivolous as contumelions as the former See it here in his chaunging of the question between vs in his lessening of theyr corruptions in his mismatching of things vnequall in his abusing our difference of judgement and reviling off vs in his perverting the Scriptures and example of the Martyrs c. The Question between vs is not as he pretendeth but thus First concerning them VVhether the good doctrines of the Church of England being joyned together vvith theyr Antichristian errors and corruptions do make theyr Assemblyes and people in that estate to be true Churches and Christians Then concerning vs VVhether notvvithstanding the good doctrines professed in theyr Church vve may and ought to separate from theyr Antichristian Ministery vvorship confusion c. That thus the question standeth between vs themselves cannot deny though they seek to alter and turne from it here and every where Therefore do we also desier thee good Reader to mynd it well and not to be carryed away with the view of theyr good doctrines alone from the question and matter in hand but alway to have an especiall regard therevnto Notwithstanding if the question were as here he pretendeth perthen both his owne and all Mr Iacobs defence of the Church of England is even thus also quite ouerthrowen For now it appeareth that both of them do vnderstand theyr Argument following as if it were thus propounded Whatsoever is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of salvation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church Mr Iacobs Argument as it is novv vnderstood by themselves notwithstanding the multitude of errors and corruptions retayned among them But the whole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of salvation viz. such a one as in simplicity of heart beleveth and embraceth it And the publik Assemblyes of England are in theyr estate companyes so gathered together that is they do in simplicity of heart so beleev and embrace Therefore it is sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches notwithstanding the multitude of theyr errors and corruptions The Argument then being thus propounded as by this note of his it must needs be marke I pray you what followeth herevpon 1. That as it hath ben propounded hitherto it concludeth not the Question but is lame both in the Proposition and Assumption as I have noted more particularly hereafter Pag. 4. 10. 12. 13. 93. 97. 99. 106. 2. That in theyr estate we must mynd not theyr good doctrines alone but theyr errors and corruptions withall Of which there is never a word in all theyr Argument See it Pag. 3 4. 63. 171. 172. 3. That the falsehood both of the Proposition and Assumption is now so manifest as the very propounding of them thus is sufficient to refute them But for this also see further Pag. 5. 11. 12. 13. Now to speak here but of the latter braunch of the Assumption onely let them tell vs iff themselues think theyr Assemblyes and members thereof do in simplicity of heart beleev and practise the good doctrines of theyr Church Nay will they say that the Prelates the chief officers and pillars of theyr Church do so embrace them Not to speak of the many thousands of theyr Church who do not so much as know the doctrines of truth retayned and 〈◊〉 them So far are they from professing and practising them in syncerity And yet are they aswell as the best members of theyr Church partakers of theyr Sacraments Ministers Governours copartners of theyr Worship Assemblyes procedings c. 4. Finally mynd that the Argument and Replyes following speak of the profession and practise of all theyr Assemblyes and members thereof as they stand according to Law Pag. 3.6 But here he speaketh onely of such among them as do in simplicity of heart beleev and embrace theyr good doctrines and therefore neyther of all theyr Assemblyes nor of all the members of them See then here how insufficiently they have reasoned and how deceitfully they have dealt all this while Besides the question being of a visible Church he speaketh onely of such as may belong to the invisible Which is not to the poynt in controversy For the profession and practise according to Law spoken of in the Argument may be knowen and discerned of men the simplicity of the heart here spoken of God onely kooweth Thus with wynding in and out they have lost both the question and themselves too I feare if they returne not in tyme and with simplicity of heart vnto the Lord. The nature and force of theyr corruptions derived from Antichrist the deadly enemy of Iesus Christ is purposely handled in the discourse following in the 1. 2. 3. 6. 7. and 9. Reasons The Apostle saith that even * 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 the forbidding of Meats and Mariage is a departing from the faith Mr Beza speaking particularly of the Church of England and but of fower or five off theyr corruptions viz plurality of benefices licences of Non-residency licences to marry and to eat flesh saith that ‡ Bez. Epist 8 the Antichristian Church hath not
of themselues raylers murmurers malicious covetous presumptuous lascivious hypocriticall vnstable discontended and such like persons alledgeth the Prophecyes Scriptures examples which were before of them in Enochs tyme of the vnbeleuing Iewes the Sodomites evill Angels Cain Balaam Corah c. Iud. Epist vvith Gen. 3.1 and 4 3-16 and 19 1-25 Numb 14. and 16. and 22. chap. c. Now in these as in the rest and many other so alledged in the Scriptures may divers differences be observed Yet are they all notwithstanding fit and pertinent for that wherevnto they apply them Neyther can any be ignorant but that there will be difference eyther of time place cause sexte persons things maner or such like circumstance in any allegations and yet they be pertinent nevertheles It is not materiall then though some differences might be noted between the case of England and theyrs of whom those Scriptures speak seing notwithstanding they do fitly prove that for which they are alledged Let the Reader also mynd here an old Popish shift whereby they labour to turne away the evidence of any Scripture that is vrged against theyr corruptions viz by noting some difference between theyr case and such as the Scriptures alledged speak of This you may see every where in theyr Rhemish notes on the New Testament and in all the rest of theyr books and defence of theyr Church and religion But now further to make the abuse of his lips yet the more manifest marke that the very Scriptures here mentioned by himself speak not onely of the vvhole body and povver of Heathen and Antichristian religion as he pretendeth but of every particular ordinance and vncleane thing belonging therevnto For thus they speak expressely Tovvch no vncleane thing Keep all myne ordinances and all my iudgements Be ye cleane Partake not in her sinnes c. By all which is most plainely forbidden all maner of partaking not of the whole onely but of every parcell of Antichrists or any other false worship whatsoever As to the second difference which he noteth here of theyr vvilfulnes rebellion obstinacy partaking vvith the lavvfull and good things vsed among them c. it is handled and answered in the Treatise following Pag. 42. 43. 88. 108. 130. 132 161. 170. 171. 175. 180. The particulars which he citeth out of the Evangelists towching the Iewes are the speaches and testimony of reproof given vnto them by Christ whē now he threatned to take away from them his kingdome because of those sinnes and other the like among them Mat. 21.43 This man himself knoweth we never doubted but true Churches might fall into errour and the members thereof walk corruptly in which respect they are subiect to be reproved And yet notwithstanding the Church constitution and functions be lawfull and ioyned withall vntill they refuse the voyce of Christ and will not be reclaymed Rev. 2. and 3. Math. 21. and. 23. Act. 2. and 13. and 17. and. 28. chap. Wherevnto when once they come then are all taught to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation Act. 2.40 and 13.46.47 19.9 Esa 8 12.-16 Now if we may separate from such as have ben true Churches when they so fall into sinne and persist as is aforesayd notwithstanding that otherwise they professe many Doctrines of truth how much more may and ought we to separate from all false Churches which stād in the apostasy of Antichrist that Man of sinne howsoever they professe some truth withall 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4 Ezech. 16.44 But of the difference both of the estate and dealing with true Churches and false compared together as also of the weaknes and falsehood of this māner of reasoning which here he vseth I have other where spokē sufficiently both in this Treatise following to which he referreth vs Pag. 92. 161. 195. and in another already published viz. A Treatise of the Ministery of England Pag. 45. 61 62. Note withall that none of the Evangelists neyther any other Scriptures do shew that Christ or the Prophets did at any tyme communicate with the Iewes in any evill but alway reproved them Whereas it is not possible that any should communicate with the Church of England though it be in theyr best things even of the Ministery of the Word Sacraments Prayer etc. but they must needs partake in evill As namely with the Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion and other sinnes of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Let him shew the contrary in any one thing among them iff he can And of this also see more hereafter Pag. 170. 171. 180. Finally let him tell vs if he have said any thing here which they in K. Henry the eight his dayes might not have alledged when the Popes supremacy with much of his religion besides was cast out of the Land and yet they oppugned the truth in many things and became drunken with the blood of the Martyrs notwithstanding D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 5. Obiection But vnto the examples of these Churches me thinkes I heare already that common aunsvver and last refuge of theyrs vvhich is this Those Churches say they were in a true outward constitution And therefore were the true Churches of Christ notwithstanding those grosse errors which they held in other poincts of doctrine and practise But contrariwise say they the Churches of England have a false outward constitution and therefore they are no true Churches of Christ notwithstanding theyr truthes of doctrine c. Ansvver So the outvvard constitution is the maine poinct on vvhich they vvholy depend and for vvhich they vvholy condempne the Churches of England from being true Christians in state of salvation VVhich I doubt not plainly to take avvay 1 And first concerning the constitution of the Ievvish Churches If vve should examine the same vve should finde that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Tvvo high Priests having by simonie crept in at once vvhich vvas vnlavvfull and contrarie to Gods ordinance notvvithstanding their gloses in their other ‡ ‡ 9. Reasons vvritinges to allovv them to be lavvfull by * * 2 Chrō 24 2.3 Zadok and Abimelech and by ††2 King 24.18 Seruiah the chief Prieste Zephaniah the Second vvhich make against themselues For there vvas never but one high Priest as they confesse * * Ansvver to Mr Hild. Pag. 50. Ergo not tvvo as here vvere the rest vvere indeed inferior to him And yet amongst those there vvas a chiefly also vvho vvere called sometimes Second Priests or Priests of the Second order 2. King 23.4 and sometimes chief Priests Math. 27.1 These Scriptures being compared vvith those in the margin by them cited doe make it more plaine Novv if the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through couetousnes as the Histories make mention It is not likely that the inferior offices did remaine sound but vvere asmuch or more altered The Priests generally being such couetous
false Church And contrarily Thirdly I aske Is not the Hierarchy and Church constitution of Antichrist the most detestable anarchy of Sathan that ever was And doth not Sathan far more commonly and readily part with his false doctrine then with it when he must needs part with the one 2 Thes 2.9 and yet can retayne the other He is subtill and of long experience he can mynd and knoweth full well that so long as he holdeth his owne constitution of a Church he can quickly vppon any opportunity bring in his doctrine agayne even with a trice For why He hath both the people ready for the receyving of it being yet still in the confusion and bondage of Antichrist and his owne Ministery also to be imployed in the publishing and serving thereof theyr Offices Callings Ministrations Maintenance being all ready at hand and fit for the purpose Whereas on the contrary when the false constitution is abolished then false doctrine wanteth both hee woonted place of receipt and her nimble wings by which she should spread and fly abroad And here I could alledge for proof hereof the prefer Ministery and estate of the Church of England which being of Antichrist Sathans graundchild and he now having spyed his tyme and found some opportunity beginneth apace by this meanes to bring in agayne such doctrines of his as had for a tyme ben suppressed As namely Free-vvill Auricular Confession Christs soule to descend into Hell The Church of Rome to be a true Church c. Witnesse the Books and publik Sermons of Bilson Bancroft Hooker Androes Harsenet Barret and other the Priests and Prelates of that Church the Marchants of these and the like wares off the Beast in Court City Countrey Vniversity and where not The same thing you may mynd also thus So long as the house standeth still and is furnished with servants and Ministers it is ready for the implements and furniture though removed for a tyme to be brought in agayne and soone to be set vp in theyr woonted place And if you would see an example of these things yet in memory look but at the Churches estate in K. Edwards and Q. Maryes dayes compared together The popish constitution of the Church being not abolished in King Edwards tyme how soone was the Popes doctrine yea and his supremacy in Queen Maryes dayes spread and acknowledged throughout the Land Yet the same doctrines of truth were in K. Edwards tyme published and receyved which now are in England And very like also that it was then with more zeale and love of the truth thē now it is specially considering the generall coldnes of men and the cruell persecution of the truth to which this age synce is come Mynd further that the Offices houses and maintenance of the Fryers and Nunnes being before in the time of K. Henry the eight quite taken away they were not able in all Q. Maryes raigns to reare them vp agayne No albeit they iudged them lawfull and necessary aswell as the other poynts of Popery and did also very earnestly desier and labour to have them reestablished So great a matter it is to have a thing abolished in the whole constitution thereof Even as when an house is rased and pulled downe to the very foundation And here vpon this occasion let me also aske Whether if the Callings and Livings of the Prelates and Priests together with the Idoll Temples and confusion of all maner people in the body of the Church now had in England were so dealt with as the Abbats Monks Abbeyes and Nunryes then were there would not fewer Iesuites and Seminaryes come into the Land Popery lesse increase treason against her Maiesty be lesse attempted and finally all the meanes and hope for the full replanting of Antithrists religion agayne in that Church be vtterly removed and taken away Let this Scribe then go and perswade such as himself that the outward constitution of the Church is but as the tithing of Mynt Annise and Commin c. Whosoever have theyr 〈◊〉 exercised to discerne good and evill will playnely see that notwithstanding any thing he pretendeth yet it is and ought to be accounted among the waighty matters of the Law of God Yea that it is of far other importance and consequence then most men think or will yet be perswaded albeit even experience the Mistresse of fooles might in all this tyme and tryall have taught them sufficient if ynough were ynough for men In cases of Religion Now for his Reason here any may see by that which hath ben sayd that it is very frivolous and of no waight at all The Proposition or first part hath nothing for the ground of it but that which is in question and neyther is alway true nor can be yeelded vnto for very great and waighty causes here before declared Vnto which adde these also 1. That many errors in doctrine are and may be far lesse then the errors of the outward constitution when they are truly compared together 2. That the true outward constitution of the Church alway implyeth both a separation of the people from the World and the joyning of them together in the fellowship of the Gospell and both these to be voluntary Which particulars being considered with the former will teach him not barely to set downe but duly to prove the Proposition in his next Reply The Assumption or second part of the Reason is in some fence true in some sence false and in both against himself and their Churches estate When Churches are set in the constitution and way of Christ if afterward they fall into some errour of doctrine they are notwithstāding for the former to be reputed true Churches vntill being admonished they refuse to heare the voyce of Christ and to yeeld to the truth Thus the Assumption is true and of vs confessed by the example of the Churches of the Iewes c. But when theyr case cometh to be such as they will rather abide in errour then obey the truth and voyce of Christ this so wilfull persisting simply overthroweth such a company from being a true Church in such estate And thus the Assumption is false and so proved to be by the example of the said Churches And both wayes it is agaynst him and theyr Church as will yet further appeare by that which is now to be spoken of his question wherein he would be resolved He asketh VVhat if a company of Arrians Anabaptists or Papists should be gathered and established in a true outvvard constitution and still retayne theyr fundamentall errors before named VVhether then their outvvard constitution should make them a true Church Yea or no. I aunswer 1. Not onely false constitution but false doctrine also retayned make a false Church If it were so then that they could have a true constitution as he supposeth yet by reason of theyr false doctrine they should be a false Church 2 I aske also of him Whether these companyes of whom he speaketh
he vvould proue the Churches of England to be the true Churches of God VVhatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian in state of saluation That is sufficienâ— to make a companie so gathered together to be a true Church But the whole doctrine as it is publikly ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. professed and practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation ††See for the addition of these vvords in Pag. 6. and our publique Assemblies are therein gathered together Therefore it is sufficieÌ„t to make the publique Assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson THe aunswer of this ArgumeÌ„t followeth But first I wil proposid another prouing by better reason that the Church-assemblies of England are in their constitution so far from being true Churches of God as they stand in AntichristiaÌ„ estate and are therfore subiect to wrath The ARGVMENT is this Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath That is sufficient to make a companie so gathered togeather likewise to stand though they professe withall in their constitution many doctrines of truth otherwise profitable to saluation But the Hierarchie Leiturgie and confusion ecclesiasticall as they are publikly ‡ Their Ecclesiasticall constitutioÌ„ Courts Iniunctions practise canon Lavve Books of articles of coÌ„mon prayer of ordering Priestes and consecrating Archbishops c. professed practised by law in England are sufficient to make a †As for exaÌ„ple the Prelates the Priessts c. particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath And the Church-assemblies in England are in ‡ their estate companies so gathered together Therefore are these also sufficient to make the Church-assemblies of England likewise to stand though they professe vvithall in their constitution many doctrines of truth othervvise profitable to saluation This Argument I propound as being more sound then M. Iacobs both for matter and maner Let others iudge Now I come to examine his Where first it is needfull so to set it downe as it was heretofore propounded by himself And that was thus as followeth Chap. 3. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it vvas first propounded and aunswered VVHatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true ChristiaÌ„ in state of saluatioÌ„ That is sufficient to make a company so gathered togeather to be a true Church But the whole doctrine ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. as it is professed and publiquely practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Therefore it is sufficient to make the publique assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer TO omit the Proposition vntill it better appeare by the defence of the Assumption how to take and vnderstand it we wil for the present only shew the weakenes of the AssumptioÌ„ And this also the rather because they seeme wholy to depend vpon it H. Iacob his Reply THe AuÌ„svverer omitteth the PropositioÌ„ for in deed it is most certain But he denieth the Assumption vvhich yet is as certaine also That the doctrine in our booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian Fr. Iohnson his 2. Aunsvver IN the former aunswer I omitted the PropositioÌ„ not because of the certeinty of it as the Replier dreameth but till we might see by his defence of the Assumption how to take it as then I noted Now therefore hauing seen in his reply the * This I vvrot vvhen I had seen Mr. Iacobs first Repâ—e herafter follovving vvhich novv he hath secoÌ„ded vvith another of like sort VVhether it be not so as here I say let the indifferent Reader vpon tryall iudge vnlearned and vnconscionable pretences by which he would seem to defend the Assumption wheÌ„ in deed he doth nothing else but cast a mist before the eyes of the simple I giue him to vnderstand that the whole Argument is lame and faulty in euery part The Proposition is not absolutely true as now by his defence of the Assumption it appeareth he vnderstandeth it The Assumption is not only false as was proued in the * My first auÌ„svver vvas the 3. ExceptioÌ„s and 9. Reasons vvhich here do follovv former auÌ„swer but also lacketh a foot whereon it should goe if it were perfect and entire For whereas in the Proposition mention is made not only of the making of a true Christian but also of a companie so gathered togeather he should in the AssumptioÌ„ if he would haue had it sound and perfect not only haue assumed that the doctrine c. is sufficient to make a true Christian but haue added also that their assemblies be companies so gathered together Which being not done both the Assumption waÌ„teth one of the feet and the Conclusion inferreth more then was in the premisses and so the whole Syllogisme is faultie and disfigured Thus might we without any further aunswer returne this ArgumeÌ„t to the first framers of it to be better fashioned Yet in hope to doe them good by the blessing of God we will more particularly lay open the weakenes of this Replie And first where he saith the Proposition is most certain and yet in his defence of the Assumption declareth that he so taketh it as whatsoeuer amongst them be ioyntly togeather held and ioyned with that which otherwise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notwithstanding they are so to be reputed as if there were no such additions or commixtures we aunswer that in this sence the Proposition neither is nor can be absolutly true For who knoweth not that ‡ Gal. 5.2.4 such things may be ioined with Christ as do abolish from him And again †2 cor 6.14.15.16.17 that Christ Antichrist cannot accord together Either therefore the Proposition is not general but admitteth limitatioÌ„ and theÌ„ is not the ArgumeÌ„t good Or if it be generall without any limitation so as whatsoeuer be added to or commingled with that which otherwise might make a true ChristiaÌ„ or Church yet it hindereth nothing at all then is it not alway true as may appeare by the former exceptions and many mo that might be alledged Next touching the Assumption besides that it is same it is also vntrue as hath ben proued Some balme in deed this man bringeth to cure it but it hath no other effect saue only to manifest so much the more that the soare of their Assemblies cannot be healed In our former aunswer we first tooke 3. Exceptions against theÌ„ comparing together their profession and practise then we alleadged 9. ReasoÌ„s directly concluding the falshood of the Assumption H. Iacob his 2. Reply Before I examine this your aunswer I will desire you and all others to note that all your Ecceptions and Reasons with your defence of them hereafter following doe consist of these
His 1. Reply to the 7. Reason folloing The Papists forbidding of mariage and meats if they had done no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such These and many mo you haue in your first Reply besides an hundred the like in the second not only sounding to that sence but directly and necessarily implying it And whereas you have sometimes the contrary as I noted * His 1. Reply to the 4 Reason follovving els where that doth but so much the more shew your inconstancy and contradiction of your self Shall I therefore now turne vpon you your owne words and say O strange dealing vvithout all shame in the vievv of the vvorld to father on me this foule vntruth c. Yet I am glad M. Iacob the truth prevaileth so much with you nill ye will ye as you are driuen to confesse that this assertion is a foule vntruth and senceles errour For herevpon it followeth first that your Proposition is not generall and therefore your whole Argument faulty and to no purpose at al for the question in hand secondly that of necessity there should be some clause ānexed to your Proposition touching the Antichristian abhominations among you if you would haue your Reason good for the estate of your Churches But you account such addition would be idle and vaine I easily beleeue you are so minded But why I pray you thinke you so Is it because you did not at first mind it or because now you see it would discouer to euerie man the vanitie of your Reason Howsoeuer it must be expressed And if your self either know not how to doe it or be vnwilling I will show it Mark now therfore Hovv Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist But the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly * Book of Articles published Anno 1562 professed and practised by Lavv in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluatiō And the publik Assemblyes of England are in their estate companyes so gathered together Therefore it is also sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist Or thus rather If the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Lavv in England be sufficient to make a particular man standing member of that Church which retaineth the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist yet notvvithstanding to be a true Christian and in state of saluation as tovvching his estate and standing in that Church then is it also sufficient to make a company so gathered together and consequently the Church of England to be a true Church of Christ as towching the estate and constitution thereof But the former say you is true Therefore also the latter But the former say I is false Therefore also the latter Thus M. Iacob should your Argument be framed in right forme of reasoning for the estate of your Church and for the question between vs. Which now being done who is so simple as cannot plainely see the falshood of both the Propositions in the former and of the Assumption in the latter and consequently the vanity of your Reason every way If you still hold otherwise then must we still call vpon you for proof Bare saying will not serue we looke for due proof Mind further that now as your case standeth you are to approve the estate of your Church and the members thereof not only as they retaine the abominatiōs of Antichrist but as they withstand also the contrary truth and way of Christ which hath ben a long time made known and offered vnto them Otherwise he that hath but half an eye may see you defēd not the present estate of the Churches of England as the title of your book pretendeth In that you say wheresoeuer there are any things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient in deed is not sufficient to make a true Christian you are againe mistaken There may be in the constitution of a Church things added destroying faith and yet so much truth be held and taught as to some particular men cōsidered apart from the constitution is sufficient to make them true Christians and in state of saluation the other being not imputed vnto them by the Lord. Thus I doubt not hath * Thus haue I spoken to you Mr Iacob many tymes Yet see hovv you haue novv dealt vvith me contrary to your knovvledg God saued some in the most popish Churches and many mo in yours from time to time Yet notwithstanding this doth not iustifie the estate either of their or of your Church neither doth it warrant any to abide therein But it argueth partly the riches of Gods mercie partlie the greatnes of his power who as at first he brought light out of darknes so in the worst times and euen in the darke kingdome of Antichrist saueth them that are his But of this besides that already spoken there will be occasion to speak more ‡ In the handling of the second Exception and 7. Reason folloing hereafter Your bad dealing about the first rest of the general points aboue named I haue declared before In deed your self may tremble to think thereon as on your Antichristian estate also in that Church You I say M. Iacob who cannot be ignorant of both these things howsoever you haue advisedly if not also vvilfully now written otherwise Mind therefore if you haue not here took heauen and earth to record against your self and whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs proceed to your Replies vpon the Exceptions and Reasons heretofore alledged against your Assumption And let the Reader mind without partialitie as before God which of vs haue the truth and accordingly let him walke in all good conscience before God and men Chap. 4. The first Exception against the Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson FIrst consider the 19. Article of that doctrine and Book which by your self is alleadged for your defence and see by it if your profession and practize be not contrary one to an other Yea see if it be not manifest euen by it that you haue not a true visible Church of Christ The words of the Article are these Artic. 19. The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure vvord of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same These are your owne words and
Iewes * Mal. 1.6.7.8.12.13 Amos. 4.4.5 Esa 1.12.13 polluted the table of the Lord and made their oblations to be in vaine yea if the abuses in Corinth about the Sacrament made that ‡ 1 Cor. 11.20 it was not the eating of the Lords supper what then shal be thought of the heynous abominations of Antichrist retained among you in the Sacraments Your distinction of simply abolishing is but leaven of your owne borrowed from your Prelates and by them from the Papists We plainely affirme that your abuses and corruptions are such as the Sacraments among you are not duely administred according to Christs ordinance and that it cannot be showed by the word of God that they seale vp Gods covenant of grace to your Church and the members thereof in that estate Now see that according to your promise you refute this And prove that notwithstanding all your corruptions mentioned yet Christ acknowledgeth your Sacramēts for his also that the good things and ordinances of Christ wanting among you are not of necessitie requisite In the meane time know that none can partake in the administration of your Sacraments but they must needs withall partake in your sinnes before rehearsed Which the Lord hath most straitly forbidden Rev. 18.4 and 14.9.10.11 Exod. 20.4.5 Psal 119.21 Mal. 1.7.8.13.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Amos. 4.4.5 and 5.5 Ephes 5.11 The particulars of your Article you say you omitted for breuities sake Let others beleev you that will for mine owne part I neither do nor can beleev it You have here taken paines to write an whole book and in it a multitude of words to no purpose Is it likely then that for brevity sake you would omit the most speciall points of the Article which may be written in a line or two at the most Nay M. Iacob these clauses of faithfull men duely according to Christs ordinance are so ful and pregnant against you as you thouht it no wisdome to mention them at all but rather in silence to bury them vnder some generall terme or as your self speak to comprehend them in a generall clause This in deed was the best way to darken the truth and help your self if any way you could But any that mind your manner of dealing may easily see that if these clauses had made but a tenth part so much for you as they are fully against you then you would have ben so far from omitting thē as we should have had them noted downe in greater letters then the rest For your Article it self if the meaning of it were to comprehend those points in your generall clause why then did it so particularly mention them besides Were the framers of your Article so ignorant or carelesse think you as in a brief descriptiō of such a waighty matter they would commit so many vaine and needles tantologies Nay rather they judged all these particulars absolutely needfull specially that Christs ordinance be had and observed and that also in all things of necessitie requisite How say you is not this the meaning of the Article How fondly then and how vnconscionably have you abused not onely your pen and tounge but even your Church and book of Articles whereon you seeme for to rely How just cause also have I then still to demaund where and what your proofes be touching the particulars of your owne description of a visible Church Your parable of a Landlord and a Tenaunt besides that it is popish and against your selues as hath ben shewed it is also false You have not had possession time out of minde as you pretend It is but yesterday since this your Samaritane and misceline religion began viz since King Henry the eight Now also Christ the King and Lord of his Church doth by his servants lay claime to his owne right and disclaimeth your false worship and Ministerie So your owne saying is against your self Nullum tempus occurrit Regi No time doth preiudice the King If you plead your right by any more auncient date as from Christ and his Apostles the evidence may soone be shewed from their writings If you doe it not all men of wisdome will not onely condemne your folly who take vpon you the defence of so bad a cause but will also perceive the impietie of your Churches estate for which no warrant can be shewed frō Apostolik writ For our going out from among you when before we had held part of possession with you I brought warrant from the worde of God which you touch not at all That it lieth vpon you yea and that your self have taken it vpon you to approve your Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion of people c. appeareth not onely by the title of your book which is called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England but by reason also that you began the first Argument and continew to replie Wherevpon you are bound to proue what is denied or in this case put vnto you to be proved We then in aunswer to your Argument noting the falshood of your Hierarchy worship c. it is your part now to approve them by the word of God or to convince that they abolish not your constitution from being Christs If you cannot doe this confesse it and give glory to God That your case is thus hath ben often shewed by vs both in other writings and in these aunswers to your self And of this point there will be occasion afterward to speak againe Touching the impudent vntruth wherewith you were charged first you sayd your selves see not wherein you faile touching Preaching or Sacraments in things necessary I alledged your owne men as witnesses to convince you therein The Admonition T. C. his replies the Demonstration c. Now you aunswer that none of all these do graunt any thing to be wanting vvith you that is necessary to the being of a Church simply nor to the being of a true Ministery or Sacraments but onely to their vvell and convenient being By which bold assertion of yours you both prove and persist in the impudent vntruth laid to your charge For hearken now and you shall heare themselves testifie thus much The first Admonition in the Preface sayeth thus In a fevv vvordes to speake vvhat vve meane Either must vve have a right Ministery of God Admonitiō to the Parliam first and second and a right government of his Church according to the Scriptures set vp both vvhich vve lack or els there can be no right Religion nor yet for contempt thereof can Gods plagues be from vs any vvhile differred And againe in the treatise it self are these words We in England are not yet come to the outvvard face of a Church agreable to Gods vvord Or as it is written in the margent of divers of those books we are scarce come to the outvvard face of a Church c. Take which of these you please the best is bad ynough Touching the Ministerie in particular the same book and men say thus We have an
whither you refer vs for it though there the Reader shall finde you aunswer not the severall Scriptures here alledged for proof of it In the meane time let this be noted that here againe you graunt your Church corruptions are against the Second commaundement Therefore may none that feare God and will be assured to escape his wrath bow downe vnto them Exod. 20.5.6 Deut. 5.9.10 and 6.10.11 and 28.15.16 c. Psal 106.29 Next where I speak of your breach of the second coÌ„maundement as being spirituall whoredome you except against it as if I mismatched things otherwise then they are in deed But how can that be seing the Scriptures ‡ Pag. 68. there alledged prove that which I said Or will you say your case is not spirituall whoredome which God in that commaundement hath straitlie forbidden and severelie threatned to punish This then being so it is your self Mr Iacob that mismatch things otherwise then in deed they are For your case is not as you would pretend by your similitude like a wanton word a light gesture or contenaunce or an immodest thought of a woman But I will tell you what it is like Even as when a woman vnfaithfull to her husband is found to commit filthynes with other men after whom she goeth a whoring Now such a one whatsoever smooth speach countenance or excuse she pretend yet is in deed an whore and for this cause to be divorced That your case is such your going a whoring after Antichrist whose ordinances Hierarchie worship confusion c. are retained among you testifies to your faces Fitly therefore do we applie the Scriptures against you and your selves it is that sinne against the Third commaundement in misapplying of them as I shewed sufficientlie in my former answer against which you can say nothing To the proof of the Assumption you yeeld now at length Neither can I otherwise thinke of your aunswer seing I have proved my speach to be proper and the Scriptures fitly alledged and you refuse to iustify your owne Articles and estate Yet least you should againe cavill and delude the Reader I aske you Have I not concluded the question in a Syllogisme Why then do you not aunswer directlie to some part of it Have I not proved the Proposition by Scripture and the Assumption by your owne Writings and practise The Conclusion then must needs be true vnles one of the Propositions could be disproved which you are so far from as you never go about to do it The marginall note then is no scoffe but a iust reproof of your ignorance which in deed deserveth much more But I spare you and leave it to others to iudge whether you do any thing els in all you say but winde in and out to hide the truth and blinde the Reader if you could The Scriptures which I alledged for proof of the Proposition you handle as if I had brought them for proof of the Assumption Who is it now think you that is in a dreame Agayne your owne Books profession and practise by which I proved the Assumption you towch not at all Nay you say plainely it is no part of your mynd to iustify them Whether it be for that you see they can not possibly be iustifyed or because you want skill in your self or charity towards your Church for the doing of it let others inquire Sure I am that thus you give the cause For this belongs directly vnto it as all may see that have any vnderstanding and your self I suppose will not deny when you have called your wits a litle better togeather Chap. 8. The second Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THat which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine that cannot make either true Christians or true Churches But the doctrine publikely professed and practized by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God in vaine Therefore c. Of the trueth of the Proposition none can doubt And the Assumption is thus proved That which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God by the precepts of Man that appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine This Christ affirmeth out of Esay the Prophet Mat. 15.9 with Esay 29.13 But the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in EnglaÌ„d appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God by the precepts of man This appeareth by the 35. and 36. Articles of the book alledged and by their other books of Articles Canons Iniunctions Common prayer their Holy dayes Fasting dayes Censures Hierarchy c. All which are the precepts of men and authorised by Law in England Therefore the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine And consequently cannot make a particuler man a true Christian nor the assemblies so gathered together true Churches H. IACOB his 1. Replie to the 2. Reason THis your Second Reason is This booke and others appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine Ergo c. 1. This also hath answere in the third Exception Pag 57. 2. Also note I pray you this Scripture Mat. 15. is verified of such as were then of the true visible ♣ Marke his open contrariety with hiÌ„self granting this in Reas 6 Church with vvhom Christ and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometimes ioyne and communicate This therefore maketh for vs and against you most notably FR. Io. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Reason THe Reason is as you see it propounded before Nâ—w what propositioÌ„ do you deny Not any at all What defence then bring you of your book of Common prayer and the particulars therein of your books of Articles and Iniunctions of your Prelacy and other Ministery receyved froÌ„ then according to your popish Pontificall of your Canons and Excommunications c. Surely none neyther What then do you answer Not a word but that you refer vs to your answer before in the last Exception whither also we refer the Reader with this note that there he shall finde nothing either for answer of any proposition of this argument or for defence of your worship Prelacy Ministery and Church gouernement called into question Is not this then a worthie and Clerck like answer Have you not may we thinke good proof for your present estate and Church-constitution which thus leave it altogeather without defence even when it most needeth and as it were beggeth your help and succor if you could affoard it any Yet now having no aunswer to any part of the Argument you bid vs note that this Scripture Mat. 15. here alledged is verifyed of such as were then of the true visible Church with whom Christ himself and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometyme ioine and communicate This therefore you say maketh for you and against vs most notably 1 But first tell vs if ‡ As that of Lev. 10.1.2.3 Num. 16 1.
First I alledged all the reformed Churches For who knoweth not but they all hold CoÌ„munioÌ„ with vs as Churches of God yet you dare either deny this or vtterly peruert it You tell vs of your Answers to Maister Cartwright Mr. Hildersam that are vnanswered If they be like to this your answer here verely they doe wisest in yeelding silence to such friuolous wandring wordes Secondly I alleadged your selues to haue acknoledged heretofore That our publique doctrine allowed would did make many of vs true Christians You too shamefully deny it And say you are for witnessing against it imprisoned banished c. Whereto I answer that if for these things you are troubled I know none can pittie you And because you say none of you euer acknowledged it I will therefore repeat your owne words Mr. BARROW in his last answer in writing to Mr Gifford intituled A fevv obseruations to the reader of Mr. Giff. last Reply Sect. 4. saith thus The next calumniations whereby Mr Gifford indeuoreth to bring vs into hatred with the whole Lande is That we condemne all the persons both men and women of England which are not of our minde and pluck them vp as tares wherein me thinkes he doeth vs open wrong if not against his owne conscience yet against our expresse writngs every where c. Have we not commended the faith of the English Martyr and 〈◊〉 thousand notwithstanding the false offices and gâ—â—â—â— corruptions in the worship they exercised not doubting but the mercy of God through their syncere â—aith to Iesus Christ extended and super abounded above all their sinnes seene and vnseene And what now should let that we should not have the same hope where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicity is found So that they neither neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. Aftervvard in the same Section The faithfull servants of Christ denying the whole constitution and government of this Church of England may iustly deny the people whilest they remaine in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church yet hereby not condemne them with any such peremptory sentence as Maister Gifford suggesteth Nota from Christ to cut them of from Gods election or from Christ Mr PENRIE in his confession of faith published in writing a litle before his death saith thus The trueth of doctrine touching the holy Trinitie touching the Natures and Offices of Christe Iustifying faith Sacramentes Eternall life and the rest established by her Maiesties Lawes and professed by her selfe their Honors and such as haue knowledge in the Assemblies of this land I acknowledge from my heart to be such as if I mainteined not the vnitie and held not the communion of the same doctrine with them in these poincts I could not possibly be saved For out of the communion of the true profession which her Maiestie hath established in these and the like truthes there is no hope of saluation lâ—ft But ioyne notwithstonding with the publique worship in the assemblies of this Land I dare not for the former causes I doe moreouer willingly confesse That many both of the Teachers also of the Professors within these Parish assemblees haue so embraced this truth of doctrine established and professed in this Land as the Lord of his infinite goodnes hath graunted them the fauour to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lordes election I professe before men and Angels that I iudge them to be meÌ„bers of that body whereof the sonne of God Christ Iesus is the head Onely herein the Lord be mercifull vnto them as to my self in regard of my sinnes That they are not vnder that outward forme of gouernement that Christ hath left c. And in his examination before Master Fanshaw lately published by your selves in print he confesseth the Churches of England to be the true Churches of Christ And what say you Maister Iohnson Have you not affirmed this thing your self to me and to Maister Philips namely towching your owne selfe when you were of vs That then you doubted not but you were a true regenerate Christian By vertue of what doctrine By extraordinarie reuelation Nay but by our publique doctrine of our Church when you stoode and continued a publique Minister of the same If you beleued so of your selfe and that truely vvhat letteth but you may beleeue the like of many Thousands novve Further vvhere you say my applying of the Martyrs is answered before Let the Reader iudge You shevv here that some of them misliked the Hyerarchie But it maketh stronger against you seeing for all that they themselves refused not to communicate and partake vvith them as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. After vvhere you say though the reformed Churches your selves and the Martyrs had thought otherwise then you now do yet all this is no so und proof against you Yes in deed that novv you hold a Paradoxe those vvitnesses are sufficient for that vvhere vnto may be added the vvhole Churches iudgment and practize vvith all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300. or 1400. yeares Chrysostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom. Austen Ambrose c. They all have thought that vnder the Prelacie and humane ceremonies men may be true Christians Then these witnesses are sufficient that your denyall hereof is a strange vnusuall opinion that is a Paradox Finally to trie vs you propound a many of questions But I leave all this superfluous stuffe to your self to be pondered First let vs cleare this present question and your Reasons hereabout Till then we have no leasure to medle further The Lord of his mercy open your eyes to see your extremitie whereby you do greatly hinder not helpe the truth Not a Firâ—â—â— for victorie but a lover of truth which you would seem to suffer for That you may indeed shew your self as becometh a Christian Pastor not impossible to erre but no lover of error * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not regarding your owne but the prayse of Christ in all things AMEN Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 9. Reason AS if your bare word were proof ynough still you say but never prove that this Reason is a fallacy Yea and all the Reasons before in your schoole-learning are likewise But the best is you are not the greatest Clerk the schooles have knowen Every of the Reasons is proved before to be true direct sound and strong against you And in all your Replyes against them what els have you done but played the Sophister and that notablie Apply therefore to your self what you speake here And of all these things now let the Reader iudge It seemeth verie absurd vnto you that I say you do here graunt vs the cause But what if the absurditie be found in your self Marke then first your owne words before Pag. 156. ‡ We graunt say you so far forth as we hold otherwise then truth so
where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicitie is found So as they neyther neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. We also aske and say the same But now if you say this is your case both we and your owne works deny it For proof whereof see the differences between you and the Martyrs before specifyed Pag. 40. 41. At Thomas a Waterings by London 1593. May 29 Mr Penry whom you ♣ martyred also the same yeare his speach followeth In which likewise note fower things not one of them for you as towching the question in hand 1. The true doctrines established by Law and professed by her Maiesty their Honours and such as have knowledge in your assemblies he acknowledgeth to be such as if he did not mainteyne and hold them likewise he could not possibly be saved We also are like mynded And to put you out of all doubt we tell you further that if we did not hold and mainteine the true doctrines professed in the Church of Rome towching the onely true God the holy Trinity the Mediator Christ the Resurrection Life eternall c. we could not possibly look to be saved Yet do we not therefore approve their Assemblies to be true Churches or the members thereof true Christians in their estate 2. He separated from your Church as remaining in Antichristian cōstitution and professeth here that he durst not ioine with the publik worship of your Assemblies The causes thereof he mentioneth in the same confession which you conceale Of which see further in his aunswer to Mr Fanshaw hereafter following 3. He confesseth that manie of the Teachers and professors in your assemblies have so embraced the truth of doctrine established and professed in the Land as the Lord hath given them to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lords election he iudged them members of that body whereof Christ is the head and prayed God herein to be mercifull to them as to himself in regard of all his sinnes that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in the Church Now marke here 1. that this is no other thing then as we alway did and still do professe likewise Of which see before Pag. 7. 41. 2. That he speaketh but of some not of all the members of your Church Whereas your Assumption and Conclusion are of your whole publik Assemblies and so of every member of your Church as towching their outward stāding therein 3. That the perswasion he had of such among you was as himself noteth in regard of the Lords election not of their estate in your Churches constitution For towching this which is the question between vs here he prayed God to be mercifull to them as to him self in respect of all his sinnes Now I suppose you will not denie but his sinnes as also the sinnes of all Gods people deserve in their owne nature the curse of God if they were not forgiven in Christ So that by praying thus he acknowledged the estate of all even of the best among you to be such as for this verie cause you are everie one subiect to Gods wrath because you are not vnder that outward forme of Governement which Christ hath left in the Church Consider withall that even for Papists we may pray thus that the Lord would be mercifull to them in this that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in his Church and yet not hereby iustify them to be a true Church in their estate but rather the quite contrarie For Christ his Church wheresoever and among whomsoever it be is vnder Christ his governement not vnder Antichrists Neither have anie people promise of salvation in such estate 4. By all this it appeareth that he spake of them as iudging them to be members of the invisible and Catholick Church which conteyneth all Gods elect not onelie among you but among the Lutherans Anabaptists Papists and all other people whatsoever Now what is this to the poinct of the question controverted which is not of men as they belong to the Catholick invisible Church but as they stand members of some particular visible Assemblies in this or that constitution 4. His speach in examination before Mr Fanshaw why do you not set it downe in his owne words as you did the other before Belike you see your self it is against you howsoever you would pretend otherwise That all may know it thus it was Mr Fanshaw asked him this questiō Do the Martyrs teach you that there is no Church in England Mr Penry answered If you meane by a Church as the most do that publik professiō wherby men do professe salvation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Iesus Christ I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this Land For I know the doctrine of the holy Trinity the natures and offices of the Lord Iesus free iustification by him both the Sacraments c. published by her Maiestyes authority and commaunded by her Lawes to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truths without the knowledge and profession whereof no salvation is to be had These are his words By which you may see he saith no other thing here then what he spake in his Confession before obiected So as the answer given for it may serve for this also Or if that please you not you may mynd it thus If he had ben demaunded by Mr Fanshaw whether there were no Church of Christ in Rome and had answered thus If you meane by a Church that publick profession whereby men do professe Christ Iesus by nature to be truly both God and man that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his blood as a full and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes c. as the Papists do publikly professe Rhem. Annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5 then am I free from denying any Church of Christ to be in Rome If I say to this question he had thus aunswered would you have concluded vpon his words that he acknowledged the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ or the members thereof to be true Christians in their constitution Or do you see for the Church of Rome but not for your owne that such conclusion can not be pressed out of his words But yet further for the more clearing of this matter let vs marke what Mr Fanshaw next asked and he aunswered towching the estate of your Church and his separation from it Vpon his former aunswer Mr Fanshaw said thus vnto him Seing you acknowledge that her Maiesty hath established the truth in so many waighty points seing she hath commaunded the true Sacraments to be administred what mislike you in our Church and why will you not be partaker of these truths and Sacraments with vs Mr Penry answered I mislike 1. the false
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is exalted above lifted vp set before or as we vsually speak Prelate 2. Thes 2.4 11. How it can be then that Pastors should be made by the Prelates as here he taketh for graunted Men surelie do not gather grapes of thornes nor figs of thistles Neither hath the throne of iniquitie which forgeth wrong for a Law fellowship with the Lord. And whatsoever be preteÌ„ded to the contrary certaine it is that Christ and Antichrist cannot accord together Mat. 7.16 Psal 94.20 2 Cor. 6.14.15 To the end therefore that the Reader may better perceive Mr Iacobs corrupt dealing it will not be amisse brieflie to note here out of their owne Pontificall and practise how the Ministers he speaketh of are made by the Prelates 1. First they are made Deacons or half Priests whose duty is to read the book of Common prayer and Homilyes to minister Baptisme to assist the Priest at divine service and if he have the Prelates licence to preach withall 2. Then after a yeares service in that Deaconship or such tyme as pleaseth the Ordinary comming to be made full Priests they are preseÌ„ted to the Lordbishop or his Suffragane by an ArchdeacoÌ„ or his deputy saying Note this Point of blasphemy For now Christ alone hath the Ministery of Priesthood that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is such as can not passe froÌ„ him vnto another Heb. 7.23.24 Reverend father in God I present these persons present to be admitted to the Order of Priesthood 3 The Prelate then saith to such as be there be they his Serving meÌ„ or any other that happen to come that way Good people these be they whom we purpose God willing to receive this day vnto the holy Office of Priesthood c. 4. None of them shewing anie impediment to the contrary the Clerks and people present say or sing the Letany c. And the Prelate readeth over a number of Collects and stinted prayers taken out of the Popes poÌ„tificall with an exhortation an Epistle and Gospell wherein they abuse and pervert the Scripture 5. The Prelate demaundeth of them thus Do you think in your heart that you be truly called according to the will of our Lord Iesus Christ and the order of this Church of EnglaÌ„d to the * Ministery of Priesthood And the partyes to be ordeined then aunswer every one for himself I think it 6. After other questions and aunswers about the sufficiency of the Scriptures c. wherein they condemne themselves the Prelate asketh if they will reverently obey their Ordinary and other chief Ministers of the Church that is the Lordbishop of the Dioces where they live the Archbishop Archdeacon Chauncelor Commissary and the rest of that Antichristian Hierarchy They make aunswer againe every one of them saying I will so do the Lord being my helper 7. Then the Bishop readeth a prayer for them that they may have strength and power to performe the same and desireth the congregation secretly in their prayers to make humble supplications to God for the foresaid things For the which prayers there is a certayne space kept in silence Note this mystery 8. After a while the Prelate prayeth againe in such wise as is set downe vnto him in the book being not able belike otherwise to coÌ„ceive any prayer himself 9. When this is done the Prelate with the Priests present lay their hands severallie vpon the head of every one that receiveth orders the receivers humblie kneeling vpon their knees and the Prelate saying vnto them * Note here againe blasphemy Receyve the holy Ghost whose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven and whose sinnes thou doest retaine they are retained c. 10. Then is sung the Creed and they go to the communion they that received orders being appointed to tary and receive the communion with the Bishop the same day and remaining in the †Well fare all good tokens same place where the hands were laid vpon them c. So testifying that they are of the same faith and body with the Prelates who are knowen to be notable persecuters of the truth and very Antichrists themselves 11. Now being thus made Priests and yet I omit many like things that might be noted out of their Book and practise for it were endles to recount all they pay for their letters of orders Which they must also have in a readines at all tymes to shew whensoever there shall be occasion for better assurance that they have received the Beasts mark And if now they be to enter vpon a benefice or whensoever that day cometh for which they are now prepared to day afore to morrow then there is yet further required that they have the presentation of the Patrone who perhaps is a Papist or an Atheist or a child or the like and the institution of the Lord-bishop who without question is an Antichrist Ephes 4.5 1 Cor. 12. â—5 with 1 Pet. 2.25 5.3.4 The true Church hath but * one Lordbishop the Lord Iesus Christ All other Lordbishops are Antichrists 12. Lastly being thus ordered presented instituted and having sworne Canonicall obedience to the Prelates now whether the people will or not they are and must be their Priests and have charge of their soules And both themselves their Ministery and people remaine subiect to the Prelates and to their Antichristian courts power jurisdiction c. This is the case of all the Priests even of them that have the most and best acceptance of the people whereof he speaketh And would any now have thought that the Prelates making and the peoples accepting of Priests being such Mr Iacob would be so sencelesse as to perswade that these are true and lawfull Pastors Might he not aswell tell vs that a cleane thing may be brought out of filthines yea that Christ may be made to agree with Antichrist Which both Scripture and experieÌ„ce teacheth can never be Iob. 14.4 2 Cor. 6.15 Eyther therefore let him make the tree good Mat. 12.33 and his fruit good or els make the tree evill and his fruit evill If the Prelates and their functions be Antichristian and were never but nought then such must needs be the Ministery derived and received from them But so it is with the Prelates even himself being witnes who both yeelded it * Pag. 92. before And here agayne in playne termes confesseth that the calling received from them is vnlawfull By this it is too evident that the light of the truth shineth in his coÌ„scieÌ„ce howsoever he strive against it Therefore will I not now further vrge it hoping that himself in tyme will better mynd it In the meane tyme let the Reader note it And withall that this calling by the Prelates which he yeeldeth to be vnlawfull is the onely calling which by Law is ratifyed and allowed in that Church And doth not Mr Iacob then whiles he saith notwithstanding they are true and lawfull Pastors speak riddles and contradict himself These things
were true Churches when they fell into those errors as were the Churches of Galatia when the errors about Circumcision and the Law crept in among them Or whether they were Hereticks Sectaryes or the like such as were Hymeneus Philetus Alexander the Apostates of Rome c. falling from the true faith and Churches of God when they came to be gathered and established as he fancyeth If they were of the former sort then they are to be estemed and admonished as true Churches till by despising the voyce of Christ the Kingdome of God be taken from among them Gal. 1.2 vvith 5.2.4 Mat. 21.33.43 1 Cor. 1.2 vvith 15.12 Rev 2. 3. chap. If of the latter then are they no true Churches at all but false and detestable Synagogues of Sathan whatsoever truth in constitution or otherwise they shall pretend Rev. 2.9 Act. 20.30 Col. 2.8.23 2 Thes 2.3.7 1 Tim. 1.19.20 6.20.21 and 2 Tim. 2.17.18 and 3.5.6.13 and. 4.14 Heb. 10.38.39 2 Pet. 2.1.2.3 In de ver 18.19 Rev. 13.11 17. 18 chap. 3. In a true constitution must alway be mynded a calling by the word of God a separation from the world a joyning together in the fellowship of the Gospell and that by a voluntary profession thereof and submission therevnto Now these things considered how is it posible that the Arrians Anabaptists or Papists retayning theyr errours should yet be gathered and established in a true outward constitution Can the light of truth have communion with the darkenes of falsehood Or can Christ in his constitution agree with Belial in the errours of Arians Anabaptists Papists c. 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 4. Finally if he will not heare our aunswer nor the Scriptures testimony let him yeâ— heare Mr Iewell a Prelate of theyr Church resolve his question in this maner * Ievvels Reply to Harding Pag 99 VVithout Christ the Church is no Church neyther hath any right or clayme vvithout his promise noâ— any promise vvithout his vvord Now this D. B. affirmeth himself that these of whom he speaketh are vvithout Christ For he sayth †Before in Sect. 3. theyr errors do of theyr ovvne nature cleane abolish from Christ Therefore by his owne assertion and Mr Iewels layd together they can be nâ—â—eue Church whatsoever faith or constitution they should pretend neyther have they anâ— right in such estate to his blessing Which yet is promised to them that are in the true waâ— and constitution of Christ Mat. 28.20 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Lev. 26.11.12 Thus then appeareth that he doth both ignorantly fever the doctrine wholy from the Churches constitution and that yet when they are considered apart as some tymes and â— some respects they may be each of them that is both the doctrine and constitution according as they are true or false avayle directly to the ouerthrowing or making of the Church to be likewise true or false so as hath ben declared before His crafty putting of faulty here for falâ— will nothing help him but bewrayeth his corrupt dealing the more Els let him shew in his next if he can whether ever there were true Church that stood in false constitution Neyther is the obiection of the Iewish constitution answered at all but remayneth of force against them still And that so much the more as the Churches of England remayne both in falâ— constitution and in false doctrine for both which they are vnder the wrath of God and all â—ound to separate from them And whosoever will not so do it remayneth a grievous sinne vpon theyr heads for which they must answer to God in that day when he will cast the Beast and false Prophet with all such as have ben seduced by them into vtter destruction to have their part in the lake which burneth with fyer and brimstone which is the second death 2 Thes â— 10.11.12 Rev. 14.9.10.11 17.1.2 19.20.21 21.8 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 7. Lastly concerning our corruptions As we cannot iustifie them to be no corruptioÌ„s but must needes acknowledge that there are many yet remaining in our land which vvere left by that man of sinne are as thornes vnto our sides vvhich vve hope God will in time abolish Iudg. 2.3 So dare vve not runne into your extremities to condempne our Churches for such corruptions but waight the appointed time of God for the redresse thereof Yet in the meane time so longe as those most excellent truthes and doctrines of salvation for which God make vs thankfull are still reteyned and held as soundly as by any Church vpon the face of the earth the other errors not simply ouerthrovving the same beeing not held of obstinacy and being also for the most part of great controversie and disputation among the learned So long I say communion in things lavvfull is to be kept with them as before is noted in the example of other Churches Othervvise it vvill come to passe by reason of the * * Mat. 25.13 10.23 dieuersitie in opinions and iudgementes vvhich by the corruption of our nature vve remaine in in this tabernacle as hath ‡ ‡ Lev. 4. Psal 19.12 bene in all ages and * * 1 Cor. 13.9 12. shal be so long as this life of imperfection indureth that no communion can euer bee had vvith any Church liuing no nor any one Christian vvith another Which to affirme vvere most absurd and vngodly These observations beeing considered I doubt not but the Lorde vvill adde a blessing to this vvorke That such as are simple hearted and have exceeded in eagernesse of zeale may see theyr extremitie in so rashly and vnadvisedly separating from and condempning the Churches of England sometymes theyr Nurses and Mothers as before is noted Whereby God may have the glory themselves the comforte euen the salvation of theyr soules through Christ D. B. The Aunswer Now at length D. B. yeeldeth the cause himself So great is the truth and so greatly it prevayleth against every oppugner thereof To omit that he confesseth they cannot justify theyr corruptions and yet they can abide in them he sayth also they must needs acknovvledge that they have many corruptions remayning vvich vvere left by that man of sinne vvhich are as thornes vnto theyr sides Blessed be God which maketh the enemyes themselues bring glory and testimony to his truth They are so convinced as he sayth plainely they must needs acknovvledge it Now therefore let him name them in his next or confesse those to be of them which I have noted hereafter Pag. 63. c. Till then I will onely inferre this herevppon that seing they are such as himself here graunteth them to be viz corruptions of the Man of sinne and thornes to theyr sides even therefore are all bound to separate from them as being condenmed by the word of God For hath not the Lord commaunded all his people wholy to leave the Man of sinne with all his corruptions not to partake in any of his
Wherefore in this saying if you say to the purpose you then affirme the Third generall poinct that I noted in you at the beginning of this my last Replie That euery soule in England is conuicted in conscience But here I maruaile that you say Maister Hus and other of the holy Martirs did heare and say Masse till their dying day Also that others did acknowledg the Popes supremacie I aske you do you meane that they held and vsed the Popish Masse according to all the abominations that are in it If you thinke so then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest were holy Martirs For therein are found errors plainly fundamentall which of themselues abolish from Christ They are not to be compared to our publique errors now in England The like I say of the Popes supremacy If you thinke any of the Martirs acknowledged it in the large and ample meaning thereof as the Popish Doctors do set it downe Then verily neither were they any Martirs The book of Acts and Monuments whither you send vs affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort It may be therefore they held many and greeuous errors of ignorance both in the Popish Masse in the supremacy which might neuerthelesse stand with Christ crucified And so they might be and were holy Martirs But I affirme that according to the damnable grossenes of the very Papists they neither did nor could hold them Therefore in these instances you say nothing to vs nor against the question in hand Further you sayd before in the beginning of your defence of this Exception “ pag. 29. That Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and the rest of the Martirs then neither had themselues nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for Now I see you make no conscience of vntruthes yea you are bold to auouch open and knowne falshoods Did not Maister Cranmer hold him selfe for Archbishop still and that he vvas by the Pope vniustly and vnsufficiently deposed and by Queene Mary forcibly restreined from it Did he euer repent of holding that Office till his death Also did not Ridley stand vpon his right to the Bishopricke of London though ready to dye Latimer though he renounced his Bishoprick yet he kept his Ministery and neuer repented him of it Philpot neuer misliked his Archdeaconry Yea vvhen he refused bloudy Bonner yet he appealed to his ordinary the Bishop of Winchester The like minde is to be seene in Bishop Farrar And generally vvhosoeuer vvere Ministers then of the Prelates ordination they neuer renounced it though they dyed Martirs Thus appeareth your bold vntruth in this behalfe Further in your Sixt ansvver Pag 32. First you vvill not see vvhat I meane in saying That these outvvard orders be not of the foundation simply I meant not at all of the very ‡ 1 Cor. 15.2 3.4 Rom. 4.25 1 Cor. 3.10.11.12.13.14 foundation neither are they Secondly you aske if our outward orders vnder Christ be not fundamentall aswell as the Iewes vnder the Law I aunsvver neither vvere the Ievves outvvard orders of the very foundation vvithout vvhich they could not be saued Thirdly you aske how Corah c. differing from Moses and Aaron only about the Priesthood and Ministery were separated from and damned I annsvver not that the matter vvas fundamentall but the manner vvas rebellious vvith consciences a thousand times conuicted and so donne vvith a high hand against God himselfe But novv this considered Hovv vainely doe you charge me in your entrance into this Exception pa. 29. That I and others of my mind goe about to iustifie these matters of order in controuersie by Cranmer Ridleys and Latimers example and their congregations then For shame do you not see the contrary that I call them errors I onely iustifie by their example that these corruptions abolish vs not from Christ as theirs did not And that I trust is sound Which thing also you might haue remembred if you had ben so charitable by that vvhich I vvrot in * In the next treatiâ—e follovving of the comparison of the Ministery vvith Mariage Auns to your first Reason another place Then in your first aunsvver Pag 30. Hovv vainely do you aske vs for Scriptures to proue these orders seeing I expreslie called them errors The like in your Second vvhere you load vp Scriptures to disproue them Also thirdly you charge an vnconscionable vntruth on me if you meane this aunsvver vnto me that I should graunt and cannot deny that all outward ceremonies gouernement are arbitrary at mans pleasure I only said that our state holdeth that generall opinion Not that I my selfe held it If you meane them vvrite to theÌ„ and speake to them if you meane me you do me foule iniury Fourthly whether they are Popish shiftes or no let our state vvhich maintaineth these things aunsvver you Your Fift is aunsvvered in the first poinct of my explication noted before pag 35. To your Sixt in pag 32. vve aunsvvered before in the Second poinct of my explication pag 35. Your seuenth in pag 34. is also against the state of our Church and not against me Fr Io. his Aunswer to M. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 2. Excep PItie not me but pitie your self Mr. Iacob and your Churches estate Your self who are miserably weak and yet foolishly wilfull as all may see by this Reply Your Churches estate which is such as by the word of God cannot be approved to have Christ your Prophet Priest and King Therefore still you tell vs your Church holdeth Christ to haue left written what is needfull for your inward and meer spirituall belief and obedieÌ„ce but that for the outward Church-order he hath not so done but left it arbitrary to be appointed and abrogated agayne at the liking of the Churche and Magistrate As if Christ had abolished the * Exod. 20.4.5.6 second coÌ„maÌ„dement which directly concerneth the outward worship and order of the Church as the ‡ Exod. 20.3 first doth our inward and spiritual belief Or as if the Scripture did not every where teach that “ Col. 2 3.5.8.19-23 Esa 33.22 Heb. 3.1.2.3 2 Ioh ver 9. Epist to Timoth. Tit. Cor. c. he hath fully furnished the Church not onely for inward faith but also for outward order and obedieÌ„ce Eyther therefore you must approve the outward order and worship of your Church to be ordeined by Christ in his word or els you have not him for your Prophet Priest and King in that estate Chuse which you will The liberty you speak of is nothing els but a cloke of licenciousnes or in deed meer Antichristian slavery howsoeuer you account it liberty That the word of God forbiddeth it I have showed both here and in my * Pag. 30 former answer against which you can say nothing Now therefore when this will not serue the turne you begin to coÌ„ment and make notes vpon your owne explication that
commaundement “ Pag. 72. It is no part of my mynd to iustify them ♣ Pag. 84. Our doctrine appointeth Gods worship by Mens precepts after a sort ‡ Pag. 92. Our Hierarchy was never but nought * Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason following I never intended much lesse professed to iustify our whole Ministery estate and maner of worship †His Replies to the 7. 8 Reasons We depart from and deny the faith in our Ministery c. but not totally simply fundamentally ‡ His 2. Reply to the 9. Reason I list not to medle with them I have no leasure c. Now then Mr Iacob say I not well that your Churches in this estate are spirituall Babylon And have I not made a fit comparison between it and the Caldean Babylon of old between the doctrines of truth in the one and the holy vessels in the other If the comparison be good strive no more against it but yeeld to the truth as you haue begun If it be evill convince it by Scripture whence I borrowed it as the testimonyes I alledged declare Vntill you do this which will not be in hast know that the Scriptures here cited are fitly applyed to the purpose in hand If you see it not feare least you be miserably and desperatly blynded And take heed you do not still runne on wilfully to destruction Remember what is written in Esa 6.9.10 Mat. 13.14.15 Ioh. 12 37-43 Act. 28.25.26.27 Towching the place of Ezech. 43.8 I have aunswered in the handling of the first Reason Pag. 80. For Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley c. I have also answered Pag. 40. 41. You that do so often tell vs of them if you had but so much as how of any Scripture for your estate is it like you would be silent therein Nay sure you would not spare much more to tell vs of that agayne and agayne And so let the Reader mynd it Chap. 12. The Sixt Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THe Samaritans those counterfeit children of Abraham Isaak and Iacob did publiquely professe that most excellent doctrine of the Messias to come the truth of which doctrine how powerfull it was to salvation the Scriptures testify Yet doeth our Saviour Christ repute them false worshippers of God because their worship was a mixt one framed after the inuentions of men and traditions of their Forefathers Therefore saith Christ vnto them Ye worship that which ye know not we worship that which we knowe for salvation is of the Iewes By which appeareth 1. That although the Samaritans professed this saving truth yet being false worshippers of God they could not truly challendge vnto themselves in such estate the benefite thereof 2. That the Iewes and they which held their faith being then the true Church and people of God to whom his Oracles were committed and to whom his Couenantes and service did appertayne Christ therefore accounted the Iewes and not the Samaritans to be the true worshippers of God and heires of salvation Iohn 4.22 compared with ver 20.25.29 and with 2 King 17.24 c. In like maner the people of these Ecclesiasticall assemblies staÌ„ding subiect to a counterfeit Ministery and worship being also commingled togeather of all sortes of people Though they professe some truthes which otherwise are available to salvation yet can not in such estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither can so standing challendge vnto themselves the benefit of those true doctrines which they professe because God hath not made his promise vnto any false Church or worshippers of him neither committed vnto any such but onely to his true Church and worshippers his service and holy things of his word prayer Sacraments Censures c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis your Sixt Reason is The Samaritans beleeving that Messias should come Iohn 4.25 were as neere salvation as we of England are But they were false worshippers for all that Ergo so are we for all our holy doctrines beleeved according to that Book of Articles I deny the proposition The Samaritans might know by hearsay and beleeve the Messias should come and Balaam did know it Nomb. 24.17 and the Divels doe now knovv and beleeve Iam. 2.17 Yet none of these beleeved in him It follovveth not therefore that they vvere as nigh salvation as vve of England In a vvord there is a Reason manifest These Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols vvith the God of Israel 2 Kiâ—g 17. Which vvholy destroyed the truth in them though they did reteyne some memoriall amongst them of Messias to come Pag. 62 Wherefore here take the Second Ansvver to the First Reason before But I vvill help you vvith an Obiection surely one fitter then all these The Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethell served not Pagan Idols Obiection but the true God after their ovvn deuises vvhich yet resembled the ordinances of Ierusalem 2 King 12.32 Amos. 4.4 Hovvbeit they were false worshippers onely for their false Ministery and outward false worship for all that they beleeued in the God of Ierusalem otherwise rightly Ergo so are wee of England only fot our false Ministerie and outvvard vvorship To this vvee aunsvvere also vvhat additions of deuices Ansvver and hovv grosse Idolatrie they held it appeareth not But surely it seemeth farre grosser and filthier then the vvorst is vvith vs But yet this appeareth cleerly that the conscience of euery of them euen of the simpliest must needes be conuicted that Ierusalem vvas the only place and ‡ My meaning vvas the Levites vvere not of Aarons line but the Prists onely Aarons line the only Priests Leuits Therfore they could not be indeed true vvorshippers nor vvithin the couenant nor neere to saluation vvhen they all openly rebelled and forsooke them desperatly vvhom the Lord had so expresly chosen Novv our assemblies throughout EnglaÌ„d haue not their consciences so conuicted in the Hyerarchie and Ceremonies Ergo vvee may be in the couenant vvhich they vvere not for all our corruptions Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis Reason as the rest you neyther propound as we did nor make aunswer directly and soundly to any part thereof Now that the nakednes of your answer and light of the truth may better appeare we will propound the Reason more plainlie in a Syllogisme thus The people and assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as to them in that estate the Covenantes holy things and service of God do not appertayne they can not in such constitution by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and asseÌ„blies of England as vnto them in that estate the Covenauntes holy things and service of God do not apperteyne Therefore the people and Assemblies of England can not in that coÌ„stitution by the word of
seem to have erred in so mayne a poinct vve cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driven them to it Neverthelesse all this vve leave to the Lord vvith the iudgement thereof vvho hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the secrets but also to turne and dispose them even as it pleaseth him Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 9. Reason TO this Reason you answer It is a fallacy Separate from such Ergo separate vvholy But how shew you any fallacy therein You bid vs see your Replyes to the third Exception and tvvo last Reasons of all Well we have seen them and finde nothing there but against your self as hath ben shewed So this Reason and the rest stand still vnanswered and strong against you And that we may not doubt but your self also see it howsoever you seem to plead the contrary before therefore now you graunt it and so yeeld the cause both in expresse words and by not defending the points of false doctrine wherewith you were charged neyther your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. In expresse words when you say you graunt that so farr foorth as you hold othervvise then trueth so far vve may and ought to separate from you Loe here what the evidence of the truth against which you have strugled so long hath now at length drawen from you The trueth is mighty and prevaileth But you adde that vve must not separate from you any further then as before not wholy or absolutly and so say you the Apostle “ here meaneth 1 Tim. 6.3 ◠First of all let vs know what your self meane hereby If you meane that we must not for your other defection forsake the trueths which you hold I aunswer that we doe it not and this your self know well ynough And in this sence your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles You say your selves you have separated from the Papists yet you neither can nor will say that you have forsaken the truthes which the Papists hold As that there is a God that there be three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Saviour of the world that God made heaven and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust c. But if you meane that because of the truthes which you professe therefore we should not separate from you then first you contradict your self having graunted that we must separate from you so farr foorth as you hold otherwise then trueth Secondlie you condemne your owne practise in your separation from the Papists notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdlie in this sence also your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore is evident both that there is no fallacy in the Reason but that it is playne and forceable against you And that you have directlie in expresse words given vs the cause See the particulars before Pag. 63 c. and acknowledged our separation to be lawfull from your * Ministery worship Assemblies c. because in these you hold otherwise then truth And as in expresse words you yeeld it so in deed you shew it in that you leave without all defēce as vnlawfull and to be separated from your Ministery worship Church-governement Doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularlie in the First and Second Reasons before which thing we wish the Reader well to observe And because we are fallen againe into mention of your false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of your dealing and insufficiencie of all your answers therefore it shall not be yrkesome to set downe here some such poincts of false doctrine as heretofore have ben obiected against you They are as followeth 1. That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacraments yet neyther the Sacramentes False doctrine in the Church of England and in the defenders thereof nor the people that ioine with them are defiled therby Which doctrine is contrary to the trueth of God in these Scriptures 1 Cor. 10.17 Hag. 2.14.15 1 Cor. 5.6 10.28 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18.19 Exod. 12.43 Levit. 15.4.5.6.7.31 11.24 13.45.46 19.7 Num. 5.2.3 19.21.22 Iosua 7.11.12 c. Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2. That the planting or reforming of Christs Church must tarrie for the Civill Magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word and spirit of God in the testimony of his servantes except they have authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat. 28.18.20 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1.27 Psal 2.6.9.10.12 Esa 9.6.7 Zach. 4.6 6.12.13 Dan. 2.44 7.27 9.25 Mich. 5.7 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6.12 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Rev. 1.5 12.11 14.12 17.14 19.16 20.4 3. That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated company of righteous men and women from the Idolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good and bad Which doctrine is cōtrary to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 vvith 6.2 Exod. 4.22.23 Levit. 10.10 20.24.25.26 Psal 24.3.4 Ezra 6.21 2. Chron. 11.13.16 Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10.12 Act. 2.40.41.42 19.9 Rom. 12.1.8 2 Cor. 6.17.18 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 14.9.12 18.4 21.27 and 22.14.15 c. 4. To mainteine this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they pervert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church and that they may be retained and communicated withall in the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Saviours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant the world in which his Church is militant here on earth And as therein there is the good seed the righteous the Children of the Kingdome so there are also tares hypocrites the children of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous servauntes of God and being discovered are here cast out of the Church in the Name and by the power of Iesus Christ so shall they in that great day be perfectlie severed from the godly by the Angels howsoever here in the meane tyme making profession of the truth and having a show of godlines they be suffred to grow together with the good seed and be with the vpright of heart reputed mēbers of the Church on earth Note also that the Church because it is the Temple House kingdome of God on earth wherein he dwelleth by his spirit and ruleth by the scepter of his word as also the gate of heaven through which he bringeth vs into his kingdome of glory after this life is therefore by Christ in this place called the Kingdome of heaven though yet it