Princes and other of the Nobilitie that follow the court to haue particular Consistories in their priuate houses consisting euerie one of a minister and some of the honestest of their Families Here are then Consistories to be erected in the church according to Cartwrightes thirde acceptation of the word church that is in priuat houses and likewise a Parish not of many but of one familie And peraduenture in time it may so come about as that this will bee currant doctrine in Englande not onely for Noblemen to haue Elderships in their priuate houses but for Gentlemen likewise For now it is already groen thus farre that many of both sortes yea some but meane gentlemē will haue their seueral ministers for comming to their parish churches though they be hard by their dores they account it a dishonorable matter their parlor-seruice and priuate speaking as they terme it pleaseth them best I might here adde howe D. Sohnius is bolde to dissent from Cartwright where speakinge of the diuerse significations of the worde church hee sayth Particularis c. The particuler church is deuided and hath her name agreeable to the diuersitye of places that is Nations Prouinces Townes Parishes Houses or Families For so there is a church of one Prouince of one Citie of one towne of one house And so he quoteth many places of scripture for this his assertion But to proceede Danaeus a man as well learned for ought is yet seene as Cartwright is doth not thinke that by the institution of Christ there must needes bee an Eldership not onely in euery Citie but in euery vplandish and countrie towne also For he sayth if I vnderstand him that in the Apostles times the ruling Elders of whom the Eldership is chiefely named was vsed to be established in vnaquaque tantū ciuitate in qua erat ampla et populosa ecclesia et magnus fideliū numerus In euery city onely where the church was populous In which citye hee further addeth quaeque ciuitatis et ecclesiae pars seu paroecia suū habebat presbyterum Euery parish had a priest or minister as the parishes in the countrie had also oppidatim that is towne by towne a priest much like to those whom we call in our times Curatores Curates Furthermore also the reforming ministers of Scotlande do account their platforme now in practice there to be as agreeable to the worde of God as M. Cartwrightes and yet as the Chronicles do report they haue but 52. Elderships in Scotland those placed in their chiefest cities and great townes Vnto euerie of which Elderships as I am informed 24. particular churches or parishes for the most part do appertaine none of them hauing any such particular Eldership of their owne but are ruled controled and censured by those in the sayde cities or townes whereunto they are adioyned and subiect In the Low countries it is true that euerie parish hath her Eldership But what a kinde of Eldership Heare a verie learned and a graue man of that countrie Ruri in pagis c. In the countrie villages in some places they haue but a Pastor one Elder and a Deacon In Gaunt euerye parish likewise had theyr Eldership consisting of moe or fewer as the quantitie of them were besides those there was a consistorye for the whole citie All which particular Elderships in the countrye cities when any matters of greater momēt fell out especially for excōmunicatiō Ea potestas nulli particulari ecclesiae concessa est that power or authoritie is graunted to no particular church sine concilio et assensu generalis consistorij in magna vrbe et in pagis et oppidulis colloquij siue classis without the councel and consent of the generall consistorye in cities great townes of the conference or classis in the country townes villages So as here we find a number of Christs kingdoms set vp but they want their scepter power without the which our men would not giue a pinne for all the rest For so they are vnperfect maymed bodies of Christ. But to come to that which is the patterne of all right church regiment euen to the Eldership of Geneua There are in that citie as I haue heard foure or fiue great parishes and in the territorie belonging vnto it almost 20. and yet for the censuring and guiding of them all they haue but one Eldership according as it seemeth to the Iewish order there being in Ierusalem but one Sanedrim yet many Synagogues Of the which Geneuian reformation it may iustly be affirmed if Cartwright his fellowes with vs say truly first that the church of Geneua hath neglected the commandement of God the institution of Christ the commaundement and practise of the Apostles in that there is not placed an Eldershippe there in euery parish secondly that the sayd church being neither the catholicke church nor one particular parish nor the faithfull company of one familie cannot rightly haue so much as the name of the church nor be truely termed the well squared bodye of Christ with all the true dimensions and limites of it And certaynely there is here no starting hole as farre as I can discerne for the excuse of that Reformation and platforme except it maye bee iustified that all these foure or fiue and twentie parishes or there aboutes are so trussed together that they doe and maie all at once meet in one Congregation are taught with one mouth which to affirme besides that their practise is otherwise will bee thought I trust great boldnes vnlesse they can find a pastor with Stentors voyce who by report could make as great a noise as fifty men I cannot chuse but put you heere in minde of a poynte in Maister Cartwright that seemeth verie strange vnto mee Hee sayth that there were moe that did externally professe Christ in the Apostles times then there are nowe insomuch as wee are not nowe the tithe of them that is the tenth parte Nowe set these thinges together The Church in the Scriptures where it signifieth not the Catholique Church nor one priuate familye doth signifye one particular congregation and no moe are rightlye to bee of one congregation then maye at once bee taught by one mouth And thereuppon will it not followe that if the Apostles were as wise as Mayster Cartwright to bounde their Congregations whereas there is mention in the Scriptures of the Church of Rome of the Church of Corinth of the Church of Antioche of the Church of Ephesus of the Church of Ierusalem we must thinke there were no moe christians there in any one of those Cities then might at one time heare one preacher And by that account there are moe christians within the citie of London the suburbs thé were in al those cities twise as many more Which if M. Cartwright will deny to be true he must needs cōses for the credit of Scotland or of
of which their allobrogicall food so much as concerneth this poynt of the disciplinarian reformation that I may omitt their desperate poyntes of deposinge of Princes and of putting them to death in diuerse cases of resistance against reformation was this that if the soueraine magistrates refused to admitt it the ministers the inferior magistrates the people c. might set it on foote themselues Of these and such like arguments diuerse bookes were allowed of by the ministers of Geneua to bee then printed there in English and to be published for Englande and Scotland as conteyning such doctrine in them wherof the worlde might take notice that as they had practised some parte of it themselues so they would be ready vpon all occasions to iustifie it I haue heard many greately commende the intertainement that was giuen in Queene Maries time to Englishmen at Geneua And surely the citizens there are in mine opinion to be greatly commended and assisted for it as occasions shall require But yet to speake what I thinke it had beene better for this Iland that neither Englishman nor Scottishman had euer beene harbored or acquainted there in respect of such disciplinarian new lessons consistoriall practises as they haue brought with them from thence If euer you meete with the historie of the Church of Scotland penned by maister Knox printed by Vautrouillier reade the pages quoted here in the margent likewise peruse the English Chronicles of Scotland as they stand corrected by some men of good experience and credite appointed for that purpose in the places also noted but especially procure for your perfect instruction the Acts of the Parliament helde in Scotland 1584. as they are printed and are abroad in many mens hands and then tell me whether you be not of my minde for the fruict of maister Knox his being at Geneua I could referre you to some other Bookes but those shall suffice For there you shall finde that the whole course which hath been held in that country concerning the points I speake of was complotted at Geneua amongst the ministers there and Caluin is named There you shall finde the forme of the Consistoriall pretended Discipline being sette vp without publicke consent ouerthrowen by Act of Parliament and afterward restored againe you may see how As soone as this saide pretended discipline began to get a head in that Countrey then againe as amongest certaine of the Frenche Ministers no forme of Seruice or of the administration of the Sacramentes no orders nor any thing else but all must be done as it was at Geneua As any doubts did arise amongest them concerning any Church-causes though they were but very simple such as a student of meane capacity and iudgement might very easely haue satisfied yet no man but maister Caluin for his time and afterwards maister Beza as though they had beene such Peters for the Protestants as the Bishop of Rome pretendeth himselfe to be for all Papists was accounted of sufficiency or able to dissolue them when they had ouerthrowen the auncient state of theyr Bishops and set vp the Geneua minion by such means as you haue heard and had so farre preuailed therein as that now they began to please themselues exceedingly See how Beza being informed thereof doth allow of their dealings incourageth them to goe forewarde in such their obedient right Consistorian courses He tearmeth their reformation after the Geneua mould if I vnderstand him Caelum in terris situm a Heauen placed in the earth or at the least he compareth the force which had beene vsed about that matter to the power of God He saith that no nation in so few yeares had abidden more assaultes of Sathan to haue hindered the saide pretended Discipline and thanketh God that Knox is theyr Pilotte to guide that ship He exhorteth the said Pilot and his fellow marriners that seeing they had both pure Religion and pure Discipline now amongest them they should keepe them both together and neuer suffer as though they had beene all of them Princes the authority of Bishops in any wise to be restored againe Afterwarde there being some new attempt made as it seemeth in the behalfe of the Bishops and as I perceiue defeated by the pretended reformers vppon information thereof giuen by one Lawson a minister to Beza he returneth him an aunswere beginning in this sorte though he were then sicke Beastime you haue made me an happy man The same yeare also he writte the discourse of his three kinde of Bishops vz. of God of men and of the Diuell and sent it vnto a man of great state in that countrey It hath since beene translated into English by Field as I take it for our instruction in England Wherein Beza dealeth I wil not say like what kinde of Bishop but rather like some new start-vp Oracle and dissolueth questions Pellmell vz. that all Bishops other then such as haue an equality amōgst them and such as he alloweth and requireth that euery minister should be must of necessity be packing that the chiefe Elders should be admitted to be present in their Parliaments as the Bishops were to deale in Church-causes and to aunswere in place of God if any other matters fell out wherein the Lordes would be resolued that Papistes may not to be excommunicated what sinne soeuer they committe and that it is Sacriledge for any lay person and such a sinne as God will reuenge to staine his handes with the goodes of the Church He further prescribeth the whole course of the church gouernment for that kingdome to be fashioned after the platforme of Geneua taking much more vppon him therein then Eleutherius the Bishop of Rome would doe hauing a farre better occasion offered him by the king of Britaine Lucius Who after hee had newly receaued the Gospell mouing the saide Bishop in respect of his great fame by his Embassadors to prescribe vnto him some orders for the Churches within his Realme he returned vnto him this aunswere in effect that the King being Christes Vicar and hauing the Scriptures he the saide Bishop would not presume to prescribe any thing vnto him but leaue him to be directed by them Such an answer as this had beene more fitte for a man of Bezaes place then in such a pope-like manner to forbid and prescribe lawes to such a kingdome But I will leaue these and such like Geneuian dealinges in that part of this Iland because peraduenture they are desired to be continued there still and come vnto the Geneuating for the selfe same platforme of discipline here at home amongest our selues As soone as her maiesty whom Almighty God longe preserue to raigne ouer vs was come to the Crown word was sent into this Realme from Geneua in a Booke printed there 1559. that those Princes that would liue without the yoke of Discipline meaning that Geneuian forme were to be reputed for Gods ennemies and therefore vnworthy to
raigne aboue his people About the same time Goodman Whittingham Gilby and some others returned from Geneua into England What violēt and seditious doctrine they brought home with them at the least they three that are mentioned I leaue to some other oportunity But for the Geneuian discipline all their desires were in that point insatiable They had seene how Caluin and Beza did raign at Geneua and thought scorne thereuppon to be subiect vnto any It seemed vnto them a notable matter If euery one of them might by and by haue obtained an absolute autority where they should haue beene placed Comming from Geneua they thought they should haue beene admired But finding themselues therein deceaued and that their Geneuian motions were little regarded it wrought in them a very great discontentment and made them so wilfull that nothing would please them which was not practised in Geneua So as thereby great contentions were presently stirred vp by thē Their first assault was made against the Communion Book with the orders ceremonies that are therein prescribed In the which quarrels perceiuing themselues in many respectes as I take it to be ouermatched what was their refuge but forsooth they must complaine to maister Beza Which complaint receaued he writte his Letter in their behalfe vnto Doctor Grindall 1566. then Bishop of London I wish a man would read the Epistles of Leo sometimes Bishop of Rome and conferre them with this of Bezaes to consider whether tooke more vppon him Leo where he might commaund or Beza where there was no reason he should at all haue intermedled But let him goe on He findeth faults with the manner of apparell appointed for our Ministers with the Crosse in Baptisme with kneeling at the holy Communion with all ceremonies that carrie with them any signification and withall the ancient Fathers applying himselfe altogether to strengthen and incourage his factious old acquaintance in their froward and peruerse obstinacie And because his course taken therein should not bee vnknowen with the same minde that he writte this letter now you see hee hath printed it The yeare after 1567. when the sayd malecontents perceiued that notwithstanding Bezaes letter there was no place giuen vnto their giddie fancies but that euery daye they were withstood more and more and that with such sufficient reasons as for mine owne part I thinke that all the Bezaes in Christendome will neuer be able sufficiently to confute they beganne to stagger and knew not what they should do They could finde no directions in the scriptures how they might behaue themselues and therfore they were constrayned to fly againe to Beza Obserue well I pray you what he himselfe writeth hereof Saepe multumque c. Being oft and greatly desired of my deerest beloued Brethren of the Churches of England that in their miserable state Consilium illis aliquod suggereremus in quo acquiescere ipsorum conscientiae possent I would giue them some councell whereupon their consciences might rest diuerse men houlding diuers opinions c. A long time I differred for diuers waighty reasons so to do and I professe that most willingly I would yet haue beene silent but that I thinke I should greatlye offende if I should still reiect their so many petitions and most pitifull mournings Wee in England may thinke wee haue had great iewels of these disturbers and that for all their pretences of great learning and grauitie they were indeed of a very shallow iudgement that could finde nothing to stay their consciences vppon but what should bee sent to them from M. Beza It was a fond part for them to write so vnto him and a very insolent parte for him to take so much vpon him but in that hee hath published so much to the world in print their childishnes his owne pride I may terme it but I want a word to expresse my conceit Hereby it should seeme that if Beza had taken such a course as might well haue beseemed him it lay greatly in his power to haue very much quieted all those present troubles But that minde was farre from him and yet it would haue tended a great deale more to his owne credit For he giueth his sayd deerest beloued Brethren very vnwise vnlearned and vngodly councell although euer since that time according to their promise they haue very grauely builded their consciences vpon it And it was this in effect that if they could not enioy their ministerie without giuing their consents to the manner of making of our Ministers by the Bishops without the voyces of such a Presbiterie as he and his Schollers do dreame of without giuing their consents to the vse of the Cap and Surplise and to the manner of excommunication in the Church of England c. They should then giue place manifestae violentiae to manifest violence and liue as priuate men Let any man that list read ouer that Epistle also and then iudge indifferently by what light aduise this peeuish opposition hath beene continued amongst vs. After some time spent in these brables then they bethought them to fall more directly in hand with the Geneuian Discipline To this purpose certaine persons assembled themselues priuately together in London as I haue beene enformed namely Gilbye Sampson Leuer Field Wilcox and I wot not who besides And then it was agreed-vpon as it seemeth that an admonition which the now L. Archbishop of Canterburie did afterwards confute should be compiled and offred vnto the Parliament approching Anno. 1572. Against which time it was also prouided that Beza should write his letterr to a great man in this Land for and in the behalfe of the chiefe contents therof vz. for the admitting in England of the sayd Allobrogicall Discipline Which office you may be sure he performed very willingly Vnderstanding sayth he of an assembly of the Estate of England wherein there would bee dealing with matters of Religion I could not chose but write vnto you of that matter And so he proceedeth shewing that all men doe allow of our doctrine but not of our Discipline That except where there is pure doctrine there be also pure discipline meaning his own Geneuian Darling the Churches are litle the better and that therefore her Maiestie and her faythfull Councellors should procure the setting vp of this pure Discipline notwithstanding any difficulties whatsoeuer that might hinder it The same yeare also 1572. hee writ to the Queenes Maiestie an Epistle dedicatory before his annotations vpon the new Testament In the which although he doth confesse that her Highnes hath restored to this Lande the true worship of God yet he insinuateth that wee want a full instauration of Ecclesiasticall Discipline that our Temples are not fully repurged that some high places remayne as yet not abolished and wisheth that those wantes and blemishes might be supplyed and reformed meaning as I thinke hee would confesse if he were deposed that her Maiestie should conforme the present Apostolicall and most
in their printed Supplication against all the new Iulianistes and Atheists mentioned CHAP. XXII They take from Christian Princes and ascribe to their pretended regiment the supreme and immediate authority vnder Christ in causes Ecclesiasticall IN the beginning of the reformation of Religion in Germany the learned men there opposing themselues verie mightely against the Popes vsurped iurisdiction did verie learnedly and soundlie shew and proue to their aduersaries the soueraigne authority of Christian Kinges and Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall within their owne dominions and countries Which authoritie vppon the banishment of the Pope as well there as after also in England was both there and here vnited by diuerse laws vnto the interest of their Crowns and to the lawfull right of ciuile regiment This doctrine since that time hath beene so very throughly maintained by sundrie notable men as Brentius against Asoto Bishop Horne against Fecknam Bishop Iuell against Harding and many other learned men against such other Papistes as haue taken vppon them to impugne it that I am perswaded had it not beene that newe aduersaries did rise opposed themselues in the matter the Papists before this time had beene vtterlie subdued For either vppon the attempt in Geneua for the erecting of the Consistorian gouernment which cannot endure any superior authority ouer it in causes Ecclesiasticall when Caluin and Viretus were banished the Citty or else vppon their restitution and after they had preuailed in their said attempt the Ministers there whether in reuenge of their banishment or least their Magistrats should at any time to come giue eare to the aforesaide Doctrine I will not saye but vppon some such occasion they did presentlie thrust themselues into this question that with such spitefull railing and bitternes as though they had conspired with the Pope and his Proctors against al other reformed churches that reiecting their pretended Discipline or new Papacie indeed had submitted themselues vnto the said lawfull authority of Christian Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall And hereof it came to speake the trueth plainelie that Caluin could not abide that King Henrye the eight should bee tearmed the head or supreme gouernour in Earth of the Churches of God within his Dominions And writing to one Myconius how certaine men in Geneua perswaded the Magistrates there Ne potestate quam illis Deus contulisset se abdicaerent that they woulde not depriue themselues of that authoritie which God had giuen them he tearmeth them according to the Consistorian language prophane spirites and mad men whom saith he if we speaking of himselfe and his fellowes shall ioine together to encounter and with a valiant and inuincible zeale fight for that holy authority vz. CoÌ„sistorian c the Lord with the breath of his mouth will destroy The saide Myconius in like sorte reporteth to Caluin from Basill how some in those borders did write to the like purpose in the behalfe of Christian Magistrates alledging the examples of Moises Dauid and other godlye Kinges which saith hee in effect is to make them Popes and then addeth quid si laici huiusmodi argumentis fuerint persuasi what if lay men shall be perswaded by such argumentes Indeede that will cutte the throate of all your soueraigntie But of all others that haue opposed themselues to Christian Princes in this matter besides Martin-Marre-Prelate and some such like companions amongest vs Viretus for rayling scoffing and biting passeth and excelleth Those that stand in defence of the Magistrates authoritie he resembleth to white Diuels and saith They are false Christians though they couer themselues with the cloake of the Gospell and the reformation of the same And againe The Ministers that haue forsaken the Romish Church in seeking to get the Magistrates and peoples fauour against the Pope Priestes and Monkes haue so despised the state of Priestood and Ministery of the Church and so magnified the state of the Magistrate that they now feele the fruict thereof he meaneth that the goods of the Church are thereby gone and wasted Further saith he they thought it a goodby reformation in the Churche to abolishe all the Canons and decrees with the good Statutes which the auncient Fathers and Doctors hadde ordayned to maintaine good Discipline in the Church They haue put all into the Magistrates handes and haue made them maisters of the Church which he tearmeth to be nothing else but the changing of the Popedome the taking away of both swordes from the Pope and giuing them to Princes the euerthrowing of a spirituall Pope and setting vppe a temporall Pope which vnder another colour will all come to one end Nay hee taketh vppon him to prooue that these Temporall Popes as hee tearmeth them are more to bee feared if they take roote and will be worse theâ— the Spirituall Popes and that so the olde Popishe â—yr 〈◊〉 is not taken awaie but onely changed and disguised And his reasons are First that the olde Pope had not the Temporall sworde in his own hand to punishe with death but was fayne to praye aide of the secular power which the neâ—e Pope's need not to doe Secondly that the olde Popes had some regarde in their dealinges of Councelles Synodes and aunciente Canons c. but the newe Popes will doe what they list without any Ecclesiasticall order bee it right or wronge Thirdlye because it chaunceth ofte that these newâ— Popes haue neither learning nor knowledge and yet these shall bee they that shall commaund Ministers and Preachers what they list on paine of their sworde and ministerie and shall appoint them lawes touching their estate and ministery and likewise to the whole Church Giue him also the hearing a little further I praie you Who so vseth such meanes to reforme the fault of the Pope doth not reforme the Church but deforme is more then it was before c. This I dare say that I see already in some places that vnder title of reformation by the Gospell some christian Princes haue in ten or twentie yeares vsurped more tyranny ouer the Churches in their Dominions then euer the Pope and his adherentes did in sixe hundred yeares And lastly If there be any Magistrates in these daies which vnder the title of authority and power that God hath giuen them c. will make the Ministers of the Church subiect vnto them as the Pope hath made them subiect to him and his c. the same doe verily set vp a newe Pope changing onely his coate and maske And thus far Viretus in his thirde Dialogue of white Diuels which was not written I feare by the instinct of anie good spirite nor without some euill direction translated into English of purpose to seede the seditious fier that our turbulent Copper-smiths following this Dâ—sciplinarie tract haue kindled alreadie amongest vs. I haue omitted his earnestnes in the behalfe of his own and Caluins Discipline that the authority thus denied to Princes might be yeelded to them and
euerie king prince being as he saith a new Pope by that meanes much worse then the olde So that hereby you see what is the drift of our factious cōsistorians in laboring to make the name of the Canō law odious You may not think that they differ in substance frō their M. Viretus but they are growē more crafty The matter that pincheth thē is this that in the acts of Parliament which are in force there is euer a Prouiso that nothing therof shal be in force which is contrary to the laws of this Realme or to the prerogatiue roiall of the prince If euer anie K. in England should be so far seduced as that he would yeald to establish their counterfeit elderships in this Realme with all the royall authoritie which they challenge of right to belong vnto thē changing the two former prouisoes should enact it that all the canō-law shold be in force sauing so much as should bee contrary to the orders prerogatiue of their elderships If I shold then be aliue as I trust I shall not I durst before hand hazard a great wager vpon it that they would most readily with a great applause receiue it almost worship it For as I said you may not imagine but that Viretus hath disclosed their verie hartes You know there is in euery church for the most part a distinctiō of places betwixt the cleargie the laity We terme one place the chauncell the other the bodie of the church which manner of distinctiō doth greatly offend the tender consciences forsooth of the purer sorte of our reformers Insomuch as M. Gilby a chiefe mā in his time amongst thē doth tearme the Quire a cage reckoneth that separatiō of the ministers from the congregation one of the hundred points of popery which hee affirmeth do yet remaine in the church of England Howbeit admit but of their elderships into euery parish thē you haue thē who will proue it out of the word of God that there ought to be such a separation of their Aldermen euery one of thē though he be but a Cobler from the rest of the Idiots that is all the other parishioners of what state soeuer Hic or do in ecclesia seruetur c. Let this order be obserued in the church saith Danaeus he sendeth vs the rule frō Geneua that these who do beare any office in the church distinguātur et separentur a reliquo populo may be distinguished separated frō the rest of the people c. It a fieri decorū est et vtile For it is decēt profitable that it should be so The Bishop he meaneth euery minister must stand or sit eminente loco alofte c. and let the elders sit by him tum vt populo appareant that the people may beholde them tum vt ministri concionantis doctrinam facilius intelligant et obseruent and that they maye the more easily heare the doctrine of the Minister preaching and the better marke it For of likelihood they are to be the preachers Censors You wil saie peraduenture wher there is some L. Maior some Councellor of state or some other great Magistrate Nay the King himselfe for he must bee of some parish where shall he or anie of them sit That is wiselie prouided for I warrant you For how should it otherwise be seeing the Prouiso commeth from Geneua Magistratus pius c. Let the godly Magistrate who is an honorable member of the Church sit in an honourable and perspicuous place where the Church may neither seeme to fauoure the arrogancy and pride of men nor the contempte of Magistrates And great discretion therein surely If the Magistrate should sit too high it would make him proude if too low it would bring him into contempt Ergo modus in loco illi concedendo seruetur c therefore let a mean be kept in appointing of a place vnto him Knight Lorde Earle Duke King or Emperour the holie Discipline respecteth no mens persons that he may both vnderstand he is preferred before the rest and yet withall that he hath no dominion ouer the word of God In deede excesse in anie thing is nought Sedeat itaque inferiori subsellio let him therfore sit in a lower seat then the preacher of the word of God and the Prophet that he may both see and acknowledge himselfe to be subiect to the threats of the word The parson or Bishop of euerie parish with his Artizan Elders must sitte in the highest place that the people may feede themselues with the sight of them the ciuile Magistrates of what degree soeuer must content themselues with inferior roomes and the rest of the people are to sit super mattas sedilia inferiora vppon pesses and little lowe formes I am perswaded it would greatlie trouble the subiects of England to see such a Metamorphosis in her Maiesties Chappell But see what a notable thing Discipline is and how the Ministers of Geneua can plaie the Herralds in marshalling of euerie state into their due places according to their callings If these men were then in England and should suruey our Quiers I suppose nothing would offend them but that that they are too low The place where the Roode-loft was would bee thought peraduenture more sutable for their Elders Indeed there the people might best behold them Lastlie because I will end this Chapter if Cartwright can get but one Scholiaste that doth in shew make for anie thing he liketh it is notable to see what reuill hee maketh with it And in like sort Maister Beza when the Fathers do fit him as in some points they doe against Erastus then these manner of phrases are common Rectè obseruauit Augustinus Augustine wel obserued it c. Againe an vero Chrys. c. what doe you thinke that Chrysostome and all the old Churches not one excepted saw not this Againe Hic te obtestamur frater c. we do here besech you brother that you would wel consider in whose behalfe and against whom you dispute cum rem ipsam ab vsu non distinguas when you distinguish not the thing it selfe from the abuse of it Againe Haec Chrysostomus quae tibi satisfacere rectè debent These thinges Chrysostome affirmeth which ought to satisfie you fully Again Nunquam aliter fuit hic locus in Ecclesia explicatus This place was neuer otherwise expounded in the Church And againe A temporibus Apostolorum ad haec vsque secula nunquam illa caruerunt Ecclesiae From the Apostles times euen vnto the age wherein we liue the Church did neuer want autoritie of Excommunication And as at times they are content to accept of the Fathers so will they also vpon the like occasion allow of generall Councells Whereas certaine persons in Transiluania beganne to reuiue diuerse old Heresies about the person of Christ Maister Beza writeth in this sorte An non in