up in the place of Christ and his precious blood which it is not pretending to give grace and wash away synns which it dooth not but it is a lye in the right hand of al that so receiv it and the saying of the Apostle is verified in it an idol is nothing in the world 1 Cor. 8.4 Yet I hope they think not that the Apostle is contrarie to the Prophet who sayth their idols are silver and gold the work of mens hands Psal. 115.4 an idol then for the matter and workmanship is somthing but for the relation unto God or divine grace it is nothing and thus th'Apostle meaneth as his next words shew ther is no other God but one So Popish baptisme as touching the material thing is somwhat the salt the water the oil are God creatures the outward action is the work of the hands of an idolatrous Preist and this work remayneth as did the work of the Idolaters circumcising in Israel but as touching the relation which is the mayn thing in a sacrament that it should seal up unto them the forgivnes of synns and as they blasphemously say quite take away synns and conferr grace so it is a vayn idol and nothing for neyther doo the true Sacraments in Christs church work any such effect to Gods own people and as for that Antichristian synagogue it is not appointed to salvation but to condemnation by the just sentence of God Rev. 17.11 18.8.20.21 2. Thes. 2.11.12 Therfore it wil not help them to say that baptisme in it self considered is Christs ordinance for the brazen Serpent was in it self Gods ordinance at first and a sacramental signe of their redemption by Christ yet they that burnt incense to it made it an Idol and therfore as Nehushtan a peece of brass it was destroyed Yea this is acknowledged of the popish baptisme by the most learned and conscionable of our own Land M. Perkins sayth and proveth it The Church of Rome transformeth the sacraments to Jdols by teaching that they conferr grace ex opere operato by the work doon c. To this effect sayth he the Preist is appointed to pray that the nature of waters might conceiv the vertue of sanctification that God would make the water fruitful by the secret admixtioÌ„ of his godhead that having coÌ„ceived sanctification a new creature may spring out of the immaculate womb of the divine fountayn that it may be living water c. Yea further he sheweth that God himself Christ being worshiped in at or before an image is presently transformed into an idol But what need I insist upon other men even Mr Iohnson himself hath pleaded the Prelates and Preists which administer baptisme to be Jdol shepheards the sacraments to be not true but false and citeth against them their own testimonies to prove that Christ himself is made an idol among theÌ„ Yet loe how he now inveigheth against us for saying that the baptisme in Antichrists synagogue is an Idol But now as Satan hath begun to perswade Antichrists christening to be Christs true baptisme although the scripture plainly sayth what concord hath Christ with Belial so he wil not cease there but justify the cursed Mass by like reason to be the blessed Supper of our Lord. For it is the same church that injoyeth these 2. sacram ts the same preists minister them both in the same Babylonish unknown language both of theÌ„ having Christs institutioÌ„ abused by the man of syn and as water is in their baptisme so bread and wine is in their mass as in baptism they use the name of the Father the Son the holy Ghost so in the Mass they use Take eat this is my body c. Now why should one of these sacraments be true and not an other Al that are not Antichrists bondmen detest his Mass as a monstrous idol let them that lyst honour his baptism Agayn excoÌ„munication is Gods ordinance as wel as baptisme and these our opposits say that by it a man is cut off from communion with al churches of Christ upon earth having his synns also bound in heaven as on the contrary by baptisme we are entred into communion with al churches of Christ in the world This Excommunication the church of Rome useth as wel as baptisme and hath power from Christ to doo it as wel as to baptise wherupon it wil folow if we be bound to communion with them that they baptise we are also bound to avoyd the communion of them that they excommunicate Now for asmuch as these our Opposites themselves besides al other that have separated from the church and doctrines of Rome have many curses and Anathemaes layd upon them by the council of Trent and Popes Bulls what ar they the better for being baptised in their infancie now that they are excommunicated in their mans age They told us before and sayd we have not yet learned it as we should that by our baptism we ar bound to communion and now let them also teach us whither by their excommunication we ar not bound to shun their communion Or if they wil not answer us let them answer the Papists who plead that their Apostate preists being divided and cut of from the church and excommunicate may not lawfully minister the sacraments And wheras M. Iewel complayned we have been cast out by these menâ— being cursed of them as they use to say with bâ—l book and candel Harding answereth To be excommunicate ye have deserved c. neyther were ye by excommunication put from vs til ye had by contumacie severed your selves from the Church and shewed your selves desperate and incorrigible And what wil they say to the Synedrion the representative church of England whose excoÌ„munications ipso facto if they be of the Lord doo forbid al Christians to coÌ„municate with these men that thus plead for Antichrists baptisme yea they wil tel M. Iohnson in his own words that it is a fearful syn their Church being a true Church to contemne their excoÌ„munication If they answer their excoÌ„munications are unjust therfore they are of no weight this wil not salve the sore For 1. al excoÌ„municated wil say they are cast out unjustly shal their own sayings be accepted if not then neyther these mens til their particular causes be cleared In the mean time men wil more regard the church then him that is cast out of the Church and according both to Christs doctrine the doctrine of the Church of England he should be estemed an hethen and publican 2. Agayn many have been cast out for contemptuous refusing to come unto the Bishops synedrion they have left those Bishops Ministers Consistories Churches as being al false and Antichristian unto whom no church duty of admonition c. did belong And now that these men have changed their mind and count it a true Church and
reformed and confirmed by the authoritie of the church and magistrate Art 38. The ministers and seniors severally and jointly shal have no authority to make any maner of decrees or ordinances to bind the congregation or any member therof but shal execute such ordinances and decrees as shal be made by the congregation and to them delivered 44. The ministers and seniors elect have authoritie as the principal members of the congregation to govern the sayd congregation according to Gods word and the discipline of the church and also to cal togither and assemble the sayd congregation for causes and at times as shal to them seem expedient Provided alwayes that if any dissention shal happen between the ministers and seniors or the more part of them and the body of the congregation or the more part of it and that the sayd ministers and seniors in such controversie being desired therto wil not assemble the congregation that then the congregation may of it self come togither and consult and determine as concerning the sayd controversie or controversies and the sayd assembly to be a lawful congregation and that which they or the more part of them so assembling shal judge or decree the same to be a lawful decree and ordinance of sufficient force to bind the whole congregation and every member of the same 46. Item in case some doo depart out of the sayd congregation that yet not withstanding those which stil remayn if they be the greater part to be a lawful congregation and that which they or the more part of them shal decree to be a lawful decree of force to bind the whole body ministers seniors deacons and every other member or members therof without exception 53. If any of the congregation be offensive c. to any of the brethren so that the offense be private he is first brotherly to admonish him alone If that doo not prevayl to cal one or 2. witnesses If that also doo not prevayl then to declare it to the ministers and Elders to whome the Congregation hath given authoritie to take order in such cases according to the discipline of the Church 54. Ther be 3. degrees of ecclesiastical discipline first that the offender acknowlege his fault and shew himself penitent before the ministers and seniors The 2. that if he wil not so doo as wel his original crime as also his contempt of the ministers c. be openly declared by one of the ministers before the whole congregation c. The 3. that if he remayn stil obstinate before the whole congregation after a time to him by the whole congregation limitted to repent in he then shal be openly denounced excommunicate which excommunicatiō seing it is the uttermost penaltie of ecclesiastical power shal not therfore be executed until the matter be heard by the whole Church or such as it shal specially appoint ther unto 62. If al the ministers and seniors which have authority to hear and determine c. be suspected or found parties or if any appeal be made from them that then such appeal be made to the body of the congregation the ministers seniors and parties excepted and that the body of the congregation may appoint so many of the congregation to hear determine the sayd matter or matters as it shal seem good to the Congregation 65. That the Ministers and Seniors and every of them be subiect to ecclesiastical discipline and correction as other private members of the Church be 67. If any controversie be upon the doubtful meaning of any word or words in the discipline that first it be referred to the ministers seniors And if they cannot agree therupon then the thing to be brought and referred to the whole congregation These and the like things were agreed of by that church to suppress the exorbitant power which the ministers then chalenged wherby the reader may see 1. what the learned and most conscionable of the church of England held heretofore which if they had continued in would have freed them of al antichristian prelacie the bane of so many churches 2. That this opinion of the churches power above the Elders is not new or first professed by us as some doo reproch us 3. And that these Advertisers which now oppose against us if they had looked upon the examples which themselves alledge might have seen their errours resisted by others against which the Lord hath now caled us also to witness He vouchsafe to be with us in this busynes and guide my hart and hand to defend his truth Of the Letter by M. Iohnson answered and published and by H. Ainsworth now defended Wherin the Articles of difference between both parties are set down and discussed THree things are to be treated of 1. The points wherin they are gone frō their former profession 2. The points wherin they now charge us to differ from our former profession 3. The conditions of peace which they refused For an entrance into this controversie M. Iohnson gives 5. observations First that wee left them upon two particular matters concerning the Churches government and the exposition of Mat. 18 17. doo not directly keep to them as we ought nor answer the things printed I answer this their beginning is ambiguous and fraudulent The churches government is somtime taken largely sometime strictly sometime it is spoken of Christ upon whose shoulders the government is and hereof ther was no controversie Sometime it is spoken of the ministerial ruling and governing the church by Elders neyther of this doe we make any question but hold as heretofore that Christ governeth his church outvvardly by their ministration Sometime men use it generally for the whole outward politie power and as many cal it discipline of the Church and about this in part our cōtroversie was But I wil manifest the frawd We in our published writings distinguish the government and the power acknowledging government to be by the officers but power in the whole body of the Church And for this point of power are 9. reasons set down wherof one is drawn from Christs speech Mat. 18.17 tel the Church Apol. pag. 62.63 Between these two is the matter so conveyed as while we plead for the churches right and power we are sayd to oppugn goverment and when we yeild the Elders to govern they therby would inclose the whole power in their hands as in the furder handling of these things shal appear But if a church have one minister onely he is to teach and govern them by the word of God yet is not any one man a Church neyther hath the power of a Church Yea this distinction is in one particular by themselves acknowledged in the same book it is they say undenyable that to give voices in election is not a part of government or a duty peculiar to the governours of the church but an interest power right and libertie that the saincts and people out of office
beast so commended unto us by these men as doon in the name of the Lord. And as for the Office of ministerie to which they say now it is given M. Iohnson himself haâ—h set down heretofore 33. reasons and differences proving by many scriptures that the popish preists office is not the Christian Pastors office Yea he affirmed the hierarchie of Antichrist to be the most detestable anarchie of Satan that ever was and what now wil imposition of sacrilegious hands in the name of the Lord doo good unto such a detestable ministery 4. Fourthly they say they find not precept example or ground in scripture binding them to the repetition of that ordination I answer it is very true no scripture bindeth men to repete or doo agayn such abominations And we pray them shew us where is there precept example or ground to keep the preisthood and indeleble character of Antichrist But be it as they say what then wil become of their own Ministery for some of them have both received given vnto others reordination are they not in as evil case by their own grounds as the Anabaptists with their rebaptisation They unjustly insinuate Anabaptistrie against us very often but themselves are in like actual transgression with the Anabaptists if their doctrine be true and yet manifest not their repentance nor tel us by vertue of which ordination they doo now administer 5. Fiftly they say the Preists and Levites in Jsrael being clensed of their vncleannes reteyned stil their places and their children after them did minister without a new anoynting or new imposition of hands c. I answer then belike the Romish preists must keep their Antichristian preisthood still for so the Preists in Israel did theirs Otherweise if they must have a new office how can they doo it by their old ordination Even in Rome it self when a Preist is promoted to a Bishops office he is new anoynted both hands head the holy Ghost agayn given him the pastoral staff the ring the Gospel is also given him to goe preach to the people committed to him c. and he hath a new imposition of hands besides that he had before 2. If the Preists children caled of God did in Israel minister without imposition of hands upon them at al as they suppose yet this wil make nothing for Antichrists hierarchie caled of the Divil with greasing shaving imposing of hands to sacrifice blasphemously for the quick and dead that they should now minister by vertue of this office and calling in the Church of Christ. Neyther might Baals Preists or Chemarims administer in Gods temple Their reason therfore from the Lords own Ministerie is altogither unfit the hethenish Flamins or Druides are fitter matches for Belials clergie And this M. Iohnson himself acknowledged when he wrote against M. Hilderdersh thus Jf Jupiters Preist Act. 14.13 or if Mahumets Preists now in Turkye should by the lawes of their nations be injoyned and therupon should execute the Ministerie of Gods word sacraments and censures would it follow therfore that such Preists had the substance of the Pastors office And why then should this Preisthood of Antichrist have more privilege then those seing the word of God hath layd this duty no more vpon it then upon the other but hath left them al with their followers and adherents under the curse Psal. 119 21 128. Rev. 9 3. 14.9 10 11. Thus he then wrote but now we find an other maner of plea. 6. Sixtly they say That they find in scripture some officers admitted with it some without it This I find not They allege Act. 13.1.2.3 where Paul and Barnabas had it It is true yea Paul had imposition of hands twise Act. 9.17 13.3 but where is the scripture that sayth some had it not They say we read not that the other Apostles had what then dooth this proov they had it not So we may also conclude the other Apostles were never baptised for we read not that they were We read not say the Anabaptists that children were baptised in the Apostles dayes wil these men now conclude therfore they were not baptised But doo not they know that arguments thus drawn negatively from scripture are generally blamed for insufficient 7. Seventhly they say that some churches hold it not of necessity to be had c. I answer that is nothing to such as hold it and have Elders to doo it But they diminish the state of the question for when the Apostle speaketh of Jmposition of hands Heb. 6.2 dooth he mean the outward ceremonie onely or the doctrine of the ministerie caling ordination signified by the sign I hope the reformed churches deny no principle of religion such as that is So in this case spoken of were it onely the outward signe I would not contend But they compare the baptism of Rome and the Ministerie of Rome togither no new baptising into the church therfore no new ordeyning unto the ministerie but as al come out of the Apostasie baptised Christians so some doo come ordeyned ministers Wherfore if these be alike they bring with them in their account the substance of a true office and of a true caling Otherweise if a new office and caling be given them I assure my self they that say Receiv the Teachers office c. may impose hands even as they that say J baptise thee into the name of the Father c may put on water Now these mens testimonie heretofore hath been strong against the Office or ministerie it self with the caling administration c. And now let them shew by the word that a new caling into a new office which men had not before may be by the ordination or imposition of hands given by Antichrist unto a false office with a false calling 8. Thus say they we shew our keeping of coÌ„munion with all other churches c. I answer this reason is good if communion be kept in the light not in darknes let Gods word therfore try the case Yet let these men say whither they know not that the ministers made in these reformed churches are not admitted in Engl. without a new ordination by the Prelates And that al Scholars admitted into Geneva must expressly detest the Popish hierarchie so caled as a Divilish confusion which hierarchie consisteth of Bishops Preists and Ministers and they that say it is not by divine ordination are by the Council of Trent accursed Is not here good communion Yea let me further tel them how the learned and better sort in England have disclaymed coÌ„munion with that Romish clergie D. Fulk in the Answ. of a true Christian to a counterfeyt catholik sayth Although al godly men wish more severitie of discipline to be used in receiving them that come out of heresies to serv in the Church then is commonly practised in England yet you are highly deceived if you think we esteem your offices of
Bishops Preists Deacons any better then the state of lay men but farr worse for we judge them to be nothing ells but Antichristianitie heresie and blasphemie And therfore we receiv none of them to minister in our church except they forswear your religion and so their admission is not an allowing of your ordering but a new caling unto the Ministerie Thus wrote M. Fulk but now these our opposites to shew how they would keep coÌ„munion with Rome allow of their ordering as of their baptising which they plead to be true baptisme as after shall appear Yet let them shew us whither al the hierarchie of Antichrist as Popes Cardinals Archbishops Bishops Friers Monks Iesuits Seminaries Preists Parsons Vicars with the rest of that crew be all of them to be admitted true Ministers into a Christian church by vertue of the Imposition of hands had in that kingdom of the Beast and if not al which of them must be reordeyned and vvhich not Themselves have acknowledged that the Ministers of Antichrist are the spirits of Divils Rev. 16 13.14 let them now if they can manifest them to be the Ministers of Christ. 9. We thought best say they to stay and consider further c. if we find it ought to be doon we can doe it at any time c. Then say I they should have stayed the practise of admitting such a teacher to administer til they had been resolved whither his office and ordination had been of God or no. But first they let him administer then they inquire of the lawfulnes the Godly heretofore did not so in a case of doubt but stayed the administration of some preists til they had assurance from God Ezr. 2.62.63 10. The church say they did chuse him into office and we by prayer commended him to God for his grace and assistance in the ministration therof Which we did without imposition of hands at that time as both our selves had before doon at our first growing into order and as the French and Dutch churches also did c. I answer things are darkly set down by saying first the church did then and we they occasion us to ask what church they mean their own particular or some other If their own whether they chose him to an office that had none before or chose him from a false office to a true or chose him being already a true officer to be theirs as they admitt the members of an other Church to be a member of theirs by prayer If the last were not how stands their comparison between baptism ordination If they did so then they abuse the reader with the example of their own ordination before For they had renounced their former Ministerie as false and received a new by the election and ordination of the people though at the first without that sign spokeÌ„ of who gave them a ministerie which they never had The outward sign at that time was not used onely because ther were not Elders before now ther were Elders which imposed hands at the same time on others It is a known fallacie to pretend that for a cause which is not the cause Moreover let them say whither theiâ— Teachers former election were not as holy as his ordination and why then they repâ—te one and not an other 11. Observ say they how these and their partakers can hold that the people having no office may excoÌ„municate and some of them that they may also minister the sacraments and yet can except against such as are in office if they doo but make question of a ceremonie c. I answer the first wee hold but as themselves heretofore did upon what ground they have left it is before discussed The second as touching us so farr as I know is a slander a mere untruth I know not one among us that holdeth men without office may minister the sacraments The third if it be as they say a question but of a ceremonie and not of the very substance of the ministerie to be reteyned as their baptisme I wil profess to cease striving thereabout though I think they err in it yea and repent that I have striven so farr But if it be in deed more then a ceremonie as I suppose the things forespoken wil manifest let these men take heed how they so dissemble for Woe vnto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord. Of the Anabaptists objections we have spoken before And now let him that readeth consider what weight ther is in their later thoughts compared with their former judgments confirmed by so many reasons as the publik writings shew Let him also note how for this later point which they count but a ceremonie they say many things as we have heard but for the former their own ministerie which is a matter of substance and most neerly concerns them they say nothing but turn aside as if they saw it not And for this also let the reader observ Mr Iohnsons own words in answer to Mr HildershaÌ„ who can bring a clean thing out of filthynes Is it possible that a lawful ordination should be had from the ministers Apostasie of Antichrist Mat. 7.16 2. Cor. 6 14 15 16. with 2. Thes. 2.3 And if he be loth to stand to his former assertions let him yet shew what comfort or assuraÌ„ce any can have of the ordination in the Papacie that it is froÌ„ heaveÌ„ considering the Preists have their authoritie from the Bishops the Bishops from the Pope the Popes as their own writers Chroniclers doo record have been divided by schismes 2 or 3 Popes at once one cursing and condemning another and among the successors one repealing the acts of an other And among the rest one shee Pope Ioan an harlot And among many schismes one which was the 22. dured fourtie yeres wherin the Antipopes so rent their Babel-church into factions that the cheifest and learnedest of the clergie could not discern which of them was the true successor of Peter as they use to speak but some clave to one Pope some to another Had these noâ— power from Christ to make ministers in his church or are not they strangely caried that had rather derive their Ministerie by uncertayn succession froÌ„ such beasts then from the Lords true Church and people And may we think that when God bring the Iewes agayn to the fayth as he hath promised that they wil goe to Antichrists throne for to erect a ministerie for them These and the like things considered may shew what soundnes is in their doctrine and practise that fetch their ordination from Rome as they doo their baptisme Finally let me admonish the reader that The man of syn who boasteth himself to be the Bishop of the whole world as also to have the Princedom or soveraygntie of al the world and may not onely order and degrade preists but set up and depose Princes so exalting himself above
al that is caled God is for thus doing to be accounted a traytor against Christ and al Princes of the world And as the dayes have been when he chalenged both church and crown of England as in King Iohns time to have the Prince his vassal as wel as the Preists his subjects so is his wil to doo alwayes and in al places But this being tyrannie and usurpation in him both over church and common wealth he hath alwayes had as good authority to make a Lord Maior in London as to make a Bishop there and to create a Prince as wel as a Preist or prelate the one is injurious to the State the other to the Church And for men to hold or derive the preisthood or ministerie from that Vsurper hath no more warrant that I know of then if one would hold or derive a magistracie from him for as God hath given every cōmon wealth power next under himself to cal set up Magistrates according to the lawes of Realmes so Christ hath given every church power next under himself to call and constitute ministers according to his word and not to derive their spiritual functions from his professed Adversarie whom he hath promised to consume with the spirit of his mouth to abolish with the brightnes of his cōming The 5. point of difference in the Letter 1. WEe had learned that it was gross errour and notorious absurditie eyther to hold the Popish Church to be a true Church having a true Ministerie and true sacraments or ells that men men must admitt of rebaptising But now we have heard that the baptisme of the Popish church is true baptisme by which we are bound to cōmunion or ells that men must be rebaptised and that the church of Rome is the Church of God because Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God With this they joyn the 4. 8. out of the printed copie 4. The 31. Article of our Confession and also our Apologie p. 109. professeth that such ecclesiastical assemblies as remayn so in confusion and bondage under that Antichristian ministerie courts canons c. cannot be estemed true visible churches c. These now plead not onely for thē but for Rome it self to be the true church of God 8. The 8. is as the 5. before expressed These things are confirmed by sundry scriptures and reasons in the places quoted as the reader may there see Against these their former testimonies they now thus dispute 1 Jt is true baptisme as the circumcision in Jsraels Apostasie was true circumcision I answer these are their own assertions but we would hear Thus sayth the Lord. True circumcision was the seal of the righteteousnes of faith Rom. 4.11 Israel in their Apostasie were fallen from the faith Hos. 11 12. they were without the true God without preist to teach and without law 2. Chron. 15.3 and how then could they have the true circumcision the seal of the righteousnes of faith and forgivnes of their synns in that sinful estate 2. The matching of Popish baptisme and Israels circumcision though in this they agree that they are both false sacraments lying signes yet is baptisme ten times more defiled in Rome then circumcision was in Israel Let us take a view therof as it is at the best and now refined by the Iesuites When any man comes to be baptised in Poperie after some quaestions praemised 1. He hath the sign of the Cross made on his forehead and breast which holy signe among other good properties hath power to drive away divils 2. Then foloweth Exorcisme that is adjuration of the Divils to goe frō the man that is to be baptised 3. After that comes Exsufflatiō or blowing of the Divils away an afflation of the good spirit in their sted 4. Next foloweth the tasting of salt which is unto them in sted of the Eucharist 5. Then the touching of the nosthrills and eares with spittle and saying Ephata that is be opened 6. After that the preist gives him imposition of hands and his blessing 7. And then he is anoynted with blessed oil on his brest and showlders 8. When he is thus sanctified a name is given unto him 9. He must have Godfathers or Godmothers to instruct him in time to come 10. Then folowes consecration of the water 11. And a dipping three times into the water in the name of the Father of the Son of the holy Ghost 12. After comes the kyss of peace in sign that the brother is baptised 13. And an Vnction of the Chrisme on the crown of his head 14. Then is a waxe candle lighted given him for a sign of faith and grace received that he is trāslated out of darknes into light 15. And a white garment is put upō him which he weareth for a certayn time These pageants are playd in Babels language an unknown tongue this baptisme ex opere operato by the work wrought for here is a great deal more doon then Christ ever would dooth conferr grace and in very deed taketh away al synns so as they are not onely not imputed but ther is not any thing that can be imputed for a blame unto him And if any shal say that grace is not conferred by the work doon the Fathers of the Council of Trent have decreed Let him be accursed And although this baptism be of it self so gracious yet any graceless person may baptise in time of need be it man or woman be it Christian Jew Turk or Pagan baptisme hath his effect conferreth popish grace and washeth away synns notwithstanding This is the baptisme about which we contend now let us proceed with our opposites arguments Jf ◠be not a true baptisme say they it is a false and false baptism is not Gods baptisme c. A true baptisme we are bound to have when we have the means wherfore they that hold it not to be true baptisme must be rebaptised I answer we doubt not but it is a false baptisme and a lying signe wherwith Antichrist deceiveth his subjects under a shew of Christianitie 1. because it is not possible for any work of a mere man much less of a sacrilegious preist to give grace or to take away synns for this is peculiar to Christ God and man and to his most precious blood which onely clenseth us from al syn 2. because true baptisme being a sign of the washing away of synns and a seal of the righteousnes of faith of our ingraffing into Christ his death burial resurrection it cannot be that Antichrist the man of syn and his worshippers which are by the sentence of God devote unto damnation should have from God such a sign and seal but they falsly usurp the same as many other things to their just judgement Yet need not men that discern and forsake those lyes and impostures to have any new washing
beat the path for al licenciousnes For although the scripture sayth he that committeth syn is of the Divil and we know that whosoever is borne of God synneth not but he that is begotten of God keepeth him self and that wicked one toucheth him not notwithstaÌ„ding men may be as prophane as Esau as filthy in life as Sodom as idolatrous and synful as the Aegyptians and Babylonians and yet if they wil but cal theÌ„selves Christians and be outwardly baptised they may be blamed in words and separated from by men but yet justified as Gods true Church they and their seed in his covenant of grace sealed with baptisme which is to remission of synns and what need they care for more Who wil feare his estate or amend his life for the doctrine of such men as pul down with the left hand build up with the right Is not this rather to strengthen the hands of the wicked that he should not return from his wickednes by promising him life Moreover this acknowledging al that profess Christ and are baptised to be true Churches having the true baptisme of God wil necessarily draw unto a general communion with al such societies wher men think actually no evil is committed as may fal out ofteÌ„ in the sermons of Friers Iesuits and other false Prophets for with true visible Churches and members of Christ who may not communicate so it be not in euil And thus Christians may come to that vanity coÌ„fusioÌ„ vvhich was among the Hethens of whom an ancient Doctor noteth that though they had infinite and contrary opinions about the Gods and their religion yet al of them kept communion togither in their Temples and sacrifices Wheras Mr. Ioh. referreth us to his first writings in answer to M. Iacob pag. 7. 13. and 47. as having then written somwhat tending this way which now he pleads for the Reader may see by comparing them how farr they differ There touching England he distinguisheth between their Church estate in respect wherof he is perswaded they cannot be judged true Christians and the personal estate of some considered apart from their Church constitution that they may wel be thought in regard of Gods election to be heyrs of salvation and in that respect true Christians so in pag. 13. 47. touching the Church of Rome and some Gods elect in it Although in pag. 146 he is perswaded whosoever lives dyes a Papist and member of that Church of Antichrist in the knowledge profession and maintenance of that religion in the parts therof can not of us be esteemed to live and dye in the estate of salvation Now what is that to his preseÌ„t plea for the Church baptisme of Rome but rather the contrary And for us we never disputed with any touching Gods elect which we leave unto himself who onely knovveth those that are his We deny not but ther may be of the elect in al false Churches even as Satan hath his reprobates in the true Churches I hold it presumption for any to limit God by how smal means or mesure of faith and knovvledge he vvil save a man Who dares deny but God had many elect among the Hethens after he had separated Israel from them Yea God expresly sayd vven he made Israel his peculiar people that yet al the earth was his vvhich are the vvords of the covenant generally Wherfore vve leave Gods secret counsels to himself as he vvilleth us and doe consider onely the visible state of Churches by the rules of Gods Lavv and promises Finally in that very book vvhich he mentioneth hovv sharply doth M. Iohns inveigh against his opposers and against M. Hooker that pleaded for the Church of Rome because of some truthes there reteyned saith that what by the Prelats and their Proctours on the one hand and the Pharisâ—ical dawbing reformists on the other all may justly fear least the end of that Church wil be to look back not onely in part but even wholly to the Romish Egipt and Sodom and to wollow agayn in the same myre from which they would seem al this time to have been washed When the Prelats and Reformists shal see what the same man now writeth himself for that Romish Egypt what wil they say but that even he also is come to dawb with them for company and fear a further fall Of their judgment of the Church of Rome translated out of M. Iunius To countenance their cause the more they set it out with the name and judgment of a learned man now deceassed Against whoÌ„ themselves wrote heretofore when they would have been loath to stand to his judgment But what wil not men doo for help in time of need The thing borrowed from him is in deed his own judgment rather then proof of argument I shal therfore the more breifly touch it yet not medling with the author who I hope is at rest in the Lord but with these his translators The Church of Rome wherof they treat is properly they say the company which is at Rome as Paul wrote Rom. 1. abusively it is al the Churches on earth cleaving to it and the doctrine constitution therof They treat of the first but would have men by proportion understand the same of the later I answer A Church ther was at Rome in Pauls time beloved of God caled Saints whose faith was published through the whole world A Church or peece rather of a Church ther is at Rome now loathed of God caled Divils whose whordoms abominations are famous through al the earth In deed and truth ther is a great Citie spiritually caled Sodom Aegypt and Babylon Rev. 11.8 16.19 dispersed over the world under the name of a Christian Catholik Church whose cheif place throne is Rome As for the congregation of Saints that was there in Pauls time it is gone long since and the Man of syn with his worshipers come in the place Between these two ther is no just proportion for what concord hath Christ with Belial 2 Cor. 6.15 The Church of Rome considered as a subiect they say hath 2. parts Pastours and the flock of Christ for which Church th'Apostle of old gave thanks to God Rom. 1 8. Neyther doo we deny this subiect to be at Rome eveÌ„ at this day because we trust ther is God caling persons caled the caling it self yet in her which togither in one giveth being to a Church I answer First I deny that God is there caling as in his Church but the man of syn sitts there as God calling all to worship him and his calling is by the working of Satan and in al deceivablenes of unrighteousnes among them that perish and the persons caled are deluded to beleev lyes 2 Thes. 2.9 10 11. Al these togither give being to Antichrists church but not to Christs And we are sure God caleth out of her such