and Stocks and Materials The Author says further that they make only a sew Stockings Stuffs and Frizes which are different from those made in England and yet they send but few abroad and that because they pay less Wages in Ireland than here they are not so likely to drain our People away and that none go there but such as are necessitated He argues That those who are in the Woollen Manufacture there will be forced to go to other Countries if this Bill pass And the last doubt is whether the Law if made would take effect it being the Interest of all Ireland to defeat it And then again the Bugbears of Scotland and France are set up And after all the Author proposes a gentler Method of doing the Work and that is by secret Discouragements and so to let it decline by degrees For the BILL and in Answer to the Objections to it it was said I. It was acknowledged That the Duties on Woollen Manufactures from Ireland are at present high the Subsidy being lately doubled which will soon expire and then they will come near to a level with the English some a little over and some under and yet notwithstanding we find by daily experience great Quantities of Irish Frizes Broad cloth napt and Stuffs imported into England If the prohibition put the Irish upon making Cloath for ther own wearing instead of what now they take from England it seems then the Irish can take to makeing Cloath if they please and no doubt of it and the English will never deny them the liberty of making what they themselves wear but have just reason to fear that by degrees they will not only do that but beat the English quite out of their Trade to Forreign Markets which must be the natural consequence of their making the Woollen Goods so much cheaper than we can That this Bill opens all the Ports of England to receive Irish Wool is true and with great reason that one place may have it on as easie terms as others otherwise the charge of Land-carriage and other Charges and ill-conveniencies are so great that it makes 10 per Cent. difference between places no further distant than Biddeford and Exon. And whilest all our Plantation Goods and particularly Tobacco which pays so high a Duty come up the Channel and Wool is sent from Southampton to Jersey and Guernsey and may also be sent from any one Port to any other Port in England and all under no other Security than Bond given to discharge in England there can be no greater danger here nay much less seeing by this Bill it is provided that the Bonds for Security shall be given by sufficient Persons residing in or near the place where the Goods are shipped and shall not be granted over to any Person and that a particular account from time to time shall be transmitted to England of all the Wool shipt and the Ships and Masters Names and to whom and at what Port consigned As to what was said This would discourage the English Interest in Ireland it was answered 1. That by their own Confession the Woollen Manufactury has not long been set up in Ireland and the English Interest was preserved before that time and no doubt may be so still without drawing so many People from England as would certainly leave it if the Woollen Manufacture goes on there and it is better that a good strength remains in one Kingdom than to divide it into both by which means neither may be strong enough to resist a Forreign Enemy 2. Tho' the Woollen Manufactury be suppress'd there they have the same means of Improvement they had before nay greater since our West Indies take off so great Quantities of their Provisions Horses and Servants which makes a compensation in some measure for the prohibiting their Cattle from coming into England 3. The Soyl is very well adapted to produce Hemp and Flax and so to establish the Linnen Manufactury which would find all due Encouragement from England and employ great numbers of People and so would the Fishery which might be carried on on the Irish Coast to great advantage 4. They send great Quantities of Corn Beef Hides Tallow Butter c. to Forreign Markets and will never want means of improving their Countrey and encreasing their People without giving so great a Wound to England As to the Truth of the Allegations in the Bill 1. The Accounts they themselves gave were a sufficient Proof of them for by them it appeared great Quantities of New-draperies were exported which altho' they endeavoured to shrowd under the Name of Frizes yet they are known to be Bays Perpetuano's and Serges such as are made in divers parts of England and a Witness on Oath declared that the Irish Serges were preferred to the English in Holland and were in great demand at the same time that English Serges lay on hand and would not sell 2. That the Woollen Manufactury had as yet increased to no greater a height was said to be as the Truth is because of the late War which made Exportation from Ireland unsafe and that Kingdom not being well settled Persons were unwilling to adventure their Stocks and to enlarge their Trades but that nothing can hinder their encrease now if Peace continues but this Bill Further it was said That there was no doubt but by degrees they would improve and encrease in their making of Cloth for that all things grew to perfection by degrees as the Woollen Manufacture did heretofore in England and making of Lute-strings and Allamodes was coming to it and that nothing could hinder this in Ireland having there the same Materials and by degrees would have Workmen from England sufficient and a good profit arising by it Fullers Earth would be found there or sent from hence or they may do as they do in Holland and France where they have no Fullers Earth and yet make as fine Cloth as we do in England III. It was said That this was not the Concern of Exeter alone but of all England for there were presented to their Lordships at least 18 Petitions from several parts of England as from Norwich Colchester Bocking London Sudbury besides those from Somerset and Devon who thought themselves immediately concerned 2. All the parts of England are affected where Wool is produced in the price of their Wool which would soon be reduced to a very low rate when the Manufactury of it is decay'd 3. The encrease of the Woollen Manufacture in Ireland would draw People from all parts of England who consume the Product of the Land 4. The able working People of England going over would leave the Weak and Aged a Charge to the Parishes and on both accounts the Rents of England must fall considerably 5. That the Woollen Manufacture of England exported was above half the Value of the whole Exportation and that being lost must needs also abate the Value of all the Lands in England As to the Objections
THE SUBSTANCE OF THE ARGUMENTS For and Against The BILL FOR Prohibiting the EXPORTATION of Woollen Manufacture from Ireland to Forreign Parts Deliver'd at the Bar of the House of Lords Together with Some Remarks on a Printed Paper Entituled Some Thoughts on the said Bill LONDON Printed by Iohn Astwood at his Printing-House behind St. Christophers Church in Thred-needle-street the backside of the Royal Exchange 1698. The Substance of the Arguments for and against the BILL for Prohibiting the Exportation of Woollen Manufacture from Ireland to Forreign Parts c. Against the BILL it was said I. THat this Bill passing would become a total Prohibition of the Exportation of Woollen Manufactury from Ireland because the Bill prohibits it to all Forreign Parts and the Duty upon it here in England is so high that it can never be brought hither and under this Head it was said That this would put the Irish upon making Cloth for their own wearing which would be more prejudicial to England because the Cloth imported from England into Ireland is of much greater Value than what is exported from Ireland to Forreign Parts the English Cloth being worn there by the Nobility and Gentry It was further said That this Bill opens all the Ports in England to receive Irish Wool and by that Means Wool coming up the Channel in sight of the French Ports would have an easie Opportunity of running in thither And Secondly That it being so near a Cut over from the North part of Ireland to Scotland it would be carried thither and from thence to Forreign Parts II. That this would discourage the English Interest in Ireland and that it seem'd not to be well tim'd after the Distress the Irish had lately been in and that it was the English Irish that were chiefly concerned in the Woollen Manufacture there It was said further that the Allegations of the Bill were not true viz. That great Quantities of the like Manufactures to those of England have of late been Made and are daily encreasing And to dispâ—ove the said Allegations an account was given taken as â—as said out of the Custom-House Books to show thow more Woollen Mannfactury was exported out of Ireland from 1084. to 1687. than from 1693. to 1696. and thâ—â— the chiefest part thereof was the New Drapery of Sâ—â—â—â—s and Fâ—â—zâ—â— and but little Cloth which was the Old Dâ—â—peâ—y of England and that therefore the Old Drapery was not prejudiced thereby And an Account was also given how many Yards of Cloth was Imported into Ireland from England in a Year III. It was alledged That this was only the Concern of one place viz. Exeter and that that ought not to weigh with the Interest of the whole Kingdom of Ireland And Notice was taken of a Paper printed for the Bill and a List of the Names of Persons lately gone from Exeter and Tiverton to Ireland and it was said that several Matters of Fact in the said printed Papers were false viz. The printed Paper asserts that Wool was 50 per Cent. cheaper in Ireland than England a pound costing there but 6 d. being worth 9 d. here which it was said was a Mistake and that it was but 25 per Cent. The second thing was about Dying Wares being dearer in England than Ireland which was denyed and it was said that it could not be so because all the Dying Wares was sent from England to Ireland and therefore of Necessity they must be dearest in Ireland As to the printed List of the Names of about 150 Persons lately gone from Exon and Tiverton to Ireland a Person said he knew three of the Names one whereof went above twenty years since and the other two a long time agoe It was agreed that Spinning the Wool was cheaper in Ireland than England but not the Combing and Weaving And as to Soap it was said that but little was used in a piece of Stuff no more than to the Value of 3 d. a piece It was said by a Gentleman who lived long in Ireland that Anno 1656. the Woollen Manufacture was attempted to be set up by some but they failed in it 1679. Some again from Holland and England made another attempt which also miscarried But 1684. It was again attempted and succeeded as to the New Drapery but that as to the Old Drapery they can never set up that because they have no Fullers Earth there It was further said That 1st The Irish must bring their Wool to a Market where it will not vend meaning England Or 2dly That the Wool being brought hither unwrought will lower the Price here and glut the Market and that will bring down the Rents of England And it was also said That England gets much by Ireland And several Irish Statutes were quoted as 13 H. 8. c. 2. 28 H. 8. c. 17. and 11 El. c. 10. which it was said were to encourage the Woolen Manufactury there I will here add also the Substance of what is contained in a Print Entituled Some Thoughts on the Bill c. That the Strength of all that can be said on that Subject may be laid together and tho' it is somewhat long think the Arguments are in short these I. That England profits greatly by Ireland Because 1. Near one third part of the Lands of that Kingdom belong to the English who inhabit here and have their Rents constantly return'd in ready Money 2. Most of the Nobility and Gentry spend their Estates here 3. That England supplies Ireland with most of the Commodities they consume that nine tenths of the People there that are able to buy it wear English Woollen Manufactures and that England receives little from Ireland their Cattle being prohibited high impositions on their Tallow Leather and Corn and last year the Tonnage and Poundage was doubled on their Linnen and other Manufactures and such as are suffer'd to come are absolutely necessary for us or Materials for our Manufactures 4. That what Ireland gets by Trade centers all in England and the Trade there is mostly carried on by English Stocks And hereupon it is said that we seem to desire to get so much from Ireland that at last we may put them out of a condition to pay us any thing The Second general Head is what was urged at the Lord's Bar that it may weaken the English Interest so as to endanger the Loss of that Kingdom And it is said That it may not necessarily follow that so much the more Woollen Manufactures will be made in England as is restrained or destroy'd in Ireland but that Holland France c. may get the Trade Ireland looses and that what Ireland has done has not lessened the Woollen Manufacture in England And then he comes fol. 10. to the point on which the Stress of the Controversie depends and that is whet her the Irish can send their Manufactures cheaper to Forreign Markets than the English and this the Author affirms they cannot because they want numbers of People
made to the Paper printed for the Bill And First About Dying Wares being cheaper in England than Ireland it was said 1. That such Goods may be brought from any part of Europe Asia or Africa directly to Ireland and the few sorts which come from America to England as Logg-wood Indico c. draw back great part of the Custom when exported to Ireland particularly Logg-wood so much as that it may be afforded cheaper there than here and altho' as yet Dying Wares do not come in very great Quantities directly from other Parts to Ireland yet they will do so as the Woollen Manufactury there encreases And it might have been added that there is lately gone from Holland to Ireland a great Quantity of Red-wood which is brought thither from Guinny cheap altho' in England it is at a very high Price As to the Objection that Wool selling for 6 d. per lib. in Ireland and at the same time in England for 9 d. per lib. was but 25 per Cent. difference Arithmetick determines that for if what cost in Ireland 100 l. sells in England for 150 l. that is plainly 50 per Cent. odds and 6 d. to 9 d. bears the same proportion The Names of three Persons amongst 140 in the Printed List were picked out one whereof as their Witness said went a way 20 Years since but being asked he could not say but there might be others of the same Names gone since and he owned it was seven Years since he left Exon. About the Workmanship it was own'd that the Spining was much cheaper in Ireland and tho' it was said that that was the least part of the Work yet the Clothiers know that it is above half And as the Manufacture encreases the resort of People skill'd in it will encrease and Ireland being so cheap a Countrey when it is in Peace the Workmanship of all kinds must be cheap too The Person that Witnessed at first that but three Penny worth of Soap was used in a Serge afterwards owned himself mistaken and in truth there is above three pound of Soap used in a Serge which is worth about One Shilling From the Account given of the first Attempts that failed to settle the Woollen Manufacture in Ireland in 1656. and 1679 and that which afterwards did succeed in 1684. it was observed That all New Manufactures are begun with some difficulty as the Woollen Manufacture it self formerly in England and the Manufacture of Lutestring and Allamodes lately here And tho' at first it succeeded not in Ireland even in the New Drapery yet afterwards it took effect and to that Degree that a Witness on Oath affirmed that they make as good Serges in Ireland as any where in England and tho' as yet they are not come to perfection in Fine Cloth nothing can hinder them from it in time having as before was said the same Materials and Work-men and all so much cheaper than we It was acknowledged by a Gentleman against the Bill that bringing the Irish Wool hither would not prejudice the Price of English Wool and it is not to bring it to a Market where there is no Vent for it always did and always will find Vent here and England will be much the better Market for it than Scotland though it should even be permitted to go there As to the Gains England makes by Ireland the clear Gains are not much and England would pay too dear to part with their Woollen Manufactury for them And whoever pleases to look into the Irish Statutes quoted will find that they were only to prevent the Exportation of Wool and not to encourage the Exportation of Cloth to Forreign Markets And now to give Answer to so much of the printed Paper Entituled Some Thoughts c. as is not answered before The Author has written with much Art and said a great deal that does not immediately concern the Question and but slightly touched what does And First as to the Profit England gets by Ireland 1. England had need get something where it has been at so vast Expence of Blood and Treasure to deliver and protect Ireland 2. This was got by Ireland before the Woollen Manufacture was set up in Ireland and will be after that is suppress'd there 3. If it should get by the Establishment or Continuance of the Woollen Manfactury which must unavoidably ruin our own by getting a penny we should loose a pound If most of their Nobility and Gentry spend their Estates here it is because they live where they like best but as Ireland flourishes more and grows greater as it must do if they remain in Peace and such a Bill does not pass that Humour by degrees will alter and they will have every thing as much to their Content and Pleasure there as here and now they go as much to Forreign Parts as England That England supplies Ireland with most of the Commodities they consume is affirmed and formerly it was so but before the War the Case began to alter and they were more supply'd by the return of their own Product and Manufactures sent abroad then from England and if a Peace continues there and they go on with their Woollen Manufacture they will soon want nothing from England but it 's able working People and Manufacturers and Seamen And altho' England has prohibited their Cattle yet a great deal of Tallow c. comes hither and Anno 7th and 8th of this King An Act was made here to encourage the Linneen Manufacture of Ireland and therein it was Enacted That it might be lawful to bring any sorts of Hemp or Flax and all the Production thereof as Thread Yarn and Linnen of the Growth and Manufacture of Ireland free from all manner of Customs Duties and Impositions whatsoever It is true indeed that the next year the Act which doubled the Subsidies of Tonnage and Poundage did by an oversight as is supposed comprehend Linnen c. from Ireland which by the Wisdom of the Nation may be rectified It is asserted that the Trade in Ireland is carried on mostly by English Stocks but the Author is misinformed in that particular and will soon find many Forreigners send their Stocks thither when things are setled as they did before the War and if they were English Stocks yet that would be a great deteriment to England to have the Stock drawn out of Trade here to be employed there Concerning the weaking the English Interest it has had an Answer and further it may be said that the Irish themselves say the Woollen Manufacture there for Forreign Exportation is small and if we Prohibit that they will in all likelyhood make the Cloth they wear themselves which is much more Where then is the weakning them It is not fit that they should have an Accession of Strength by the Diminution of our own who must support our selves and them too It is evident that as the Irish make and vend more Woollen Goods abroad we shall vend
the less because all Traders to Forreign Parts know that the Goods they make are in imitation of Ours and they are wise enough to send such Goods as they find are Esteemed and will Sell and such the English make and send and the going off of many of our Woollen Manufacturers to Ireland is too convincing a Proof to be denied that the increase in one Kingdom must be the decrease of the other And now the Author of Some Thoughts c. is come to the main and indeed the only Point on which the Controversie turns And that is Whether in Ireland they can make the same Woollen Manufactury cheaper than in England and this the said Author Determines in the Negative but leaves us to seek the Proof of it where we can find it and seeks to cloud the Matter with an obscure way of Arguing but such as every one must see thorough especially such discerning Judgments as the Matter is now before To make a long Notional Argument to prove that two and two makes four or any other certain Proposition in Arithmetick or to argue against the Truth of Addition or Substraction of Sums without Numeration is equally absurd And therefore the plain Answer to that is the account which follows  In England  In Ireland  l. s. d.  l. s. d. A piece of Serge of about 40 s. price takes up 24 lib. of Wool at 9 d. per lib. 00 18 00 at 6 d. per lib. 00 12 00 The 24 lib. of Wool when Combed makes 15 lib. for the Spinner at 9 d. per lib. 00 11 03 at 5 d. per lib. 00 06 03 Soap used 00 01 00  00 00 08 Combing and Weaving reckon the same in both places 00 09 00  00 09 00  1 19 03  0◠07 11 So that a Piece of Serge which costs in Ireland but l. 1.7.11 costs in England l. 1.19.3 which is 40 per cent difference besides the Exchange And if the Advocates for the Woollen Manufactury in Ireland would succeed They Ought to disprove one of these two Points 1. That either this Account is False and in what Particulars Or 2ly That if the same Sorts of Woollen Manufactury are made in Ireland 40 l. per Cent. cheaper than in England and thence Exported into Forreign Parts That Forreigners will for the sake of England Buy English at dearer Prizes or that English Merchants will to their loss send English rather than Irish But these are so self-evident that they may as well attempt to prove it is Night at Noon-Day And therefore let the Consequence be what it will to Ireland it can never be supposed that the Lords or Commoners whose Estates and Families and Interests are in England will ever yield this Point to the Irish The Case with England is not the same as formerly Heretofore our Neighbours had no great Strength at Sea and then Forreign Trade which is the Foundation and Maintenance of our Shipping and Customs was not of such absolute necessity as now it is The French and the Dutch are now grown Powerfull in Shipping and Sea Force and England being an Island must at all times be able to cope with all its Neighbours in Strength at Sea or it will soon become a Prey to Forreigners And this can be done by no other means but the most vigorous Promotion of our Forreign Trade and the Woollen Manufacture is so great and essential a part of it and that on which all the rest Depends That with submission it seems to be no Policy so much as to connive at the least Diminution or to allow of the least Discouragement of it And whilest the Irish did formerly and may still go on with Tillage and other Trades greatly to their advantage without the Linnen Manufacture and especially whilest England seems to be inclined by all ways and means to encourage their Proceeding upon the Linnen-Manufacture they will have no reason to complain The Author says Ireland is not likely to drain England of People because they pay less Wages there as the Promoters of the Bill assert but if the Advice of a very ingenious Gentleman who has written of Trade were follow'd to reckon by Political Arithmetick this Author would have seen where his Error lay in not reckoning that if at the same time that People have less Wages in Ireland they spend much less and so can lay up more at the years end then it would be Encouragement enough to invite People there where they can get most That those who are in the Manufactury there will be forced to go to other Countries seems not likely for the reason the Author himself gives elsewhere that they will turn to making of Cloth for their own wearing in Ireland or if they do there is no Country where they can find so great Encouragement as to return to their Native Country The probability of their Wool going to Scotland or France is before answered and to prevent that if this Act be not strict enough it is a good Foundation and a stricter may in time be made and the Government there being so much under the Direction and Influence of England there is no doubt but the Laws will be executed there as well as here and I believe by degrees the Rumny-Marsh People will be weary of their Connivance The Proposal which the Author makes of doing the Work more gently by secret Discouragements seems cruel and unjust Cruel to ruin People under the pretence of showing them Kindness and unjust to do it where there is no Publick and known Law to give them notice whereby they may order their Affairs accordingly All which is Humbly Submitted Postscript WHereas a Witness against the Bill affirmed on Oath That the first Man named in the Printed List viz. Thomas Allen went away to Ireland at least twenty years since upon Enquiry it is found That he went thither about twelve years agoe and not for Debt and when the War broke out in Ireland he came back to England and about a year since returned to Ireland again and has sent for his Wife and Family who are since gone thither to him and Henry How whom their Witness said went away in 1680. or 1681. went away but about four Months since from Gullumpton