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A41015 Roma ruens Romes ruine : being a svccinct answer to a popish challenge concerning the antiquity, unity, universality, succession, and perpetuall visibility of the true church even in the most obscure times, when it seemed to be totally eclipsed in the immediate ages before Luther / by Daniel Featley ... Featley, Daniel, 1582-1645. 1644 (1644) Wing F592; ESTC R4369 68,281 80

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men capable of the Popedom Pope Ioan and Benedict the ninth chosen Pope at ten years old were no such if faithfull pastors and bishops truely discharging their pastorall function in feeding Christs flock by diligent preaching and exemplary living name me two such Popes for every hundred of years since Christ Phyllida solus habeto I● by true bishops and pastors you understand rightly consecrated and canonically elected and invested Pope Pelagius the first was not so who obtained the papacy by an imposture no●Sylvester who aspired to it by art magick no●Eugenius who was at the first promoted by faction and afterwards held it by might in despight of the councell of Basil if by true bishops you mean orthodoxall bishops and preachers of the truth Liberius was no such branded with the note of Arrianism by St. Ierome and Pope Damasus Honorius was no such for he was condemned for the heresie of the Monotholites in three generall councels confirmed by three Popes Iohn the 23. was no such who is charged in the councell of Constance with the denyall of the immortality of the soul and the life to come and for that and for other blasphemies and enormous crimes deposed by the councell To come yet neerer to the quick when you stand so much upon succession and make it an infallible note what mean you by succession locall succession or doctrinall that is a succeeding of bishops and pastors in the same place onely or a succession not only in the same place but principally and especially in the same orthodoxall and catholike doctrine which is the only true and properly so called succession as Nazianzen affirmeth {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} This excellent passage consisting of divers agnominations and gracefull figures in the greek cannot be translated but to the losse and therefore omitting the english of it in stead thereof I will impart unto you a very pertinent note upon it which I found in a friends book contrived by him into these elegant Iambicks {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} If you take succession in this latter sense you take up again a beggarly fallacy called petitio principii you prove idem per idem to wit that your Romish saith is the true faith and the Romish church the true church because your Romish bishops and p●… have always succeeded one another in the profession of one and the self-same orthodoxall faith If you take succession in the former sense for bare locall succession or the sitting of divers bishops one after another in the same chair you make a ●oodden argument much like to that wherewith the fool in Dion pers●●ded himself that he must needs be some great commander because he had sat in Caesars chair or that wherewith Vibius R●fus was more than half induced to beleeve that he had Tullies eloquence infused into him by sitting in Tullies pew and leaning upon Tullies desk By this argument you might prove profane Photius to be an holy bishop because he succeeded Ignatius an holy man and Athanasius to be an Arrian heretick because he succeeded an Arrian bishop and our renowned martyr Cranmer to be a papist because he succeeded Warham a papist and cardinall Pool to be a protestant because he succeeded Cranmer a protestant Nay by this reason you might prove pope Adrian who trampled upon the Emperour Fredericks neck blasphemously abusing the words of the psalmist thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder to be a pattern of humility Pope Hildedrand who entred like a fox and ruled like a lyon and dyed like a dog to have been a pattern of simplicitie Pope Stephen the 6. and Sergius the 3. who pulled their predecessor Formosus out of the grave the one cutting off his finger the other his head and casting his carkasse into Tiberis to have been patterns of humanity Pope Boniface the 7. who robbed S. Peters chair of all the jewels and pretious things in it to have been a pattern of a faithfull steward Pope Iohn the 12. who gave orders in a stable gelded his Cardinals drank an health to the devill and at dice called for help of Iupiter and Venus to have been a saint Pope Sylvester who gave himself wholly to the devill to have been a devoto Pope Sixtus the 4. who ware cloth of gold at home in his private house eased nature in stools of silver and deckt his harl●t Tiretia with shoos covered with pearl to have been a modest and frugall man Pope Alexander the 6. who carnally knew his own daughter and Pope Iohn the 13. who was slain in the very act of adultery to have been virgins nay by this argument you might prove Pope Ioan who was said to be brought on bed in the street in a solemn procession to have been a man because she succeeded men in that see The heralds who have blazon'd the arms of the popes are Platina Genebrardus Luitprandus Sigonius Sigebertus Martinus Polonus Baptista Fulgosus Iovianus Pontanus Wesselius Groning Let me give you good counsell in your ear invent better arguments for popery than these or charge your elect ladies sub sigillo confessionis never to utter any of them before a learned protestant for fear of scandalizing your Romish faith Let this suffice for your note succession I will now canvas your note unity PARAGRAPH X. Touching the 4. note of the church viz. unity CHALLENGE Teaching the same unchanged doctrin in all points of faith Answer To help out your former argument drawn from the note succession you add another note as you make it the note of unity and consent in doctrin at least in all substantiall points of faith against which I except first that it is no proper mark of the Church secondly that this mark is not to be found in your Romish church Although nothing better becommeth the church of God than to be at unity in it self yet certain it is that both ●nity may be without the true church and even in the purest times the true church was without unity The enemy shortly after the apostles time sowed such tares of dissention among the good wheat in the field of the church that the heathen in their theaters derided the christians for the multiplicitie of sects among them On the contrary as the poet said magna inter molles concordia so we may often observe too great an unity in the enemies of the gospel conspiring against the Lord and against his anointed The Sadduces might the Nestorians may the Arrians did brag of their consent in matter of faith Who art thou saith the Arrian Emperour to Liberius then orthodox who troublest the peace of the whole world Will you