have heard publickly and so both parties returned to the same Condition as they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose but you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in person he that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a man that wanted not either Valour or Judgement but to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his power but in the King 's B. He was a man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Countrey and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had Fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of Superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in the like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that conquered Carthage by the valour and conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio a man valiant and wise enough but he perished in the Employment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is a foolish Superstition to hope that God has entailed Success in War upon a Nation or Family B. After the pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there but all was to no purpose and to use all the means he could otherwise but the Scots were resolved to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Counsellors they could not otherwise obtain their right but the truth is they were otherwise animated to it by the Democratical and Presbyterian English with a promise of reward and hope of Plunder Some have said that Duke Hamilton also did rather encourage them to than deter them from the Expedition as hoping by the disorder of the two Kingdoms to bring to pass that which he had been formerly accused of to endeavour to make himself King of Scotland but I take this to have been a very uncharitable Censure upon so little ground to judge so uncharitably of a man that afterwards lost his life in seeking to procure the liberty of the King his Master This resolution of the Scots to enter into England being known the King wanting Money to raise an Army against them was now as his Enemies here wished constrained to call a Parliamene to meet at Westminster the 13. of April 1640. B. Me-thinks a Parliament of England if upon any occasion should furnish the King with Money now in a War against the Scots out of an inveterate disaffection to that Nation that had always taken part with their Enemies the French and which always esteemed the Glory of England an abatement of their own A. 'T is indeed commonly seen that Neighbour-Nations envy one anothers Honour and that the less potent bears the greater malice but that hinders them not from agreeing in those things which their common ambition leads them to And therefore the King found for the War but the less help from this Parliament and most of the Members thereof in their ordinary discourses seemed to wonder why the King should make a War upon Scotland and in that Parliament sometime called them their Brethren the Scots but instead of taking the King's business which was the raising of Money into their consideration they fell upon the redressing of Grievances and especially such way of levying Money as in the last intermission of Paâ—liament the King had been forced to use such as were Ship-Money Knighâ—hood and such other Vails as one may call them of the Regal Office which Lawyers had found justifiable by the antâ—ent Records of the Kingdom Besides they fell upon the actions of divers Ministers of State though done by the Kings own Command and Warrant insomuch that before they were called the Money which was necessary for this War if they had given Money as they never meant to do had come too late It is true there was mention of a sum of Money to be given the King by way of bargain for relinquishing his right to Ship-money and some other of his Prerogatives but so seldom and without determining any Sum that it was in vain for the King to hope for any success and therefore on the Fifth of May following he dissolved them B. Where then had the King Money to raise and pay his Army A. He was forced the second time to make use of the Nobility and Gentry who contributed some more some less according to the greatness of their Estates but amongst them all they made up a very sufficient Army B. It seems then that the same men that crossed his business in the Parliament now out of Parliament advanced it all they could what was the reason of that A. The greatest part of the Lords in Parliament and the Gentry throughout England were more affected to Monarchy than to a Popular Government but so as not to endure to hear of the King 's absolute Power which made them in time of Parliament easily to condescend to abridge it and bring the Government to mixt Monarchy as they called it wherein the absolute Sovereignty should be divided between the King the House of Lords and the House of Commons B. But how if they cannot agree A. I think they never thought of that but I am sure they never meant the Sovereignty should be wholly either in one or both Houses besides they were loth to desert the King when he was invaded by Foreigners for the Scots were esteemed by them as a Foreign Nation B. It is strange to me that England and Scotland being but one Island and their Language almost the same and being governed by one King should be thought Foreigners to one another The Romans were Masters of many Nations and to oblige them the more to obey the Edicts of the Law sent unto them by the City of Rome they thought fit to make them all Romans and out of divers Nations as Spain Germany Italy and France to advance some that they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the common People the priviledge of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the contumelies of other Nations where they resided Why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united into one People A. King James at
of granting it they made an Ordinance That the Commanders of the Militia of London in case the King should attempt to come within the Line of Communication should raise what Forces they thought fit to suppress Tumults to apprehend such as came with him and to secure i.e. to imprison his Person from danger If the King had adventured to come and had been imprisoned what would the Parliament have done with him They had dethron'd him by their Votes and therefore could have no security while he lived though in Prison it may be they would not have put him to death by a High Court of Justice publicly but secretly some other way B. He should have attempted to get beyond Sea A. That had been from Oxford very difficult Besides it was generally believ'd that the Scotch Army had promis'd him that not only His Majesty but also his Friends that should come with him should be in their Army safe not only for their persons but also for their honours and consciences 'T is a pretty trick when the Army and the particular Soldiers of that Army are different things to make the Soldiers promise what the Army means not to perform July 11. the Parliament sent their Propositions to the King at Newcastle which Propositions they pretended to be the only way to a settled and well-grounded Peace They were brought by the Earl of Pembroke the Earl of Suffolk Sir VValter Earl Sir John Hyppesley Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Robinson whom the King asked If they had power to treat And when they said No he ask'd why they might not as well have been sent by a Trumpeter The propositions were the same dethroning ones which they used to send and therefore the King would not assent to them Nor did the Scots swallow them at first but made some exceptions against them only it seems to make the Parliament perceive they meant not to put the King into their hands gratis and so at last the bargain was made between them and upon payment of 200000 l. the King was put into the hands of the Commissioners which the English Parliament sent down to receive him B. What a vile Complexion hath this Action compounded of feigned Religion and very covetousness cowardize perjury and treachery A. Now the War that seemed so just by many unseemly things is ended you will see almost nothing in these Rebels but baseness and falseness besides their folly By this time the Parliament had taken in all the rest of the Kings Garisons whereof the last was Pendennis Castle whither Duke Hamilton had been sent Prisoner by the King B. What was done during this time in Ireland and Scotland A. In Ireland there had been a Peace made by order from His Majesty for a time which by divisions by the Irish was ill kept The Popish Party the Pope's Nuncio being then there took this to be the time for delivering themselves from their subjection to the English besides the time of the Peace was now expired B. How were they subject to the English more than the English to the Irish They were subject to the King of England but so also were the English to the King of Ireland A. The distinction is somewhat too subtil for common understanding In Scotland the Marquis of Montross for the King with a very few men had miraculously with Victories over-run all Scotland where many of his Forces out of too much security were permitted to be absent for a while of which the Enemy having intelligence suddenly came upon them and forced them to flie back into the High-lands to recruit where he bagan to recover strength when the King commanded him being then in the hands of the Scots at Newcastle to disband and he departed from Scoâ—land by Sea In the end of the same year 1646. the Parliament caused the King's great Seal to be broken Also the King was brought to Holmeby and there kept by the Parliaments Commissioners and here was an end of that War as to England and Scotland but not to Ireland About this time also dyed the Earl of Essex whom the Parliament had discarded B. Now that there was Peace in England and the King in Prison in whom was the Sovereign Power A. The Right was certainly in the King but the exercise was yet in no body but contended for as in a game at Cards without fighting both the years 1647. 1648. between the Parliament and Oliver Cromwel Lieutenant General to Sir Thomas Fairfax You must know that when King Henry VIII abolished the Pope's Authority here and took upon him to be the Head of the Church the Bishops as they could not resist him so neither were they discontented with it For whereas the Pope before allowed not the Bishops to claim Jurisdiction in their Diocesses Jure Divino that is of Right immediately from God but by the Gift and Authority of the Pope now that the Pope was outed they made no doubt but the divine Right was in themselves After this the City of Geneva and divers other places beyond Sea having revolted from the Papacy set up Presbyteries for the Government of their several Churches and divers English Scholars that went beyond Sea during the Persecution of Queen Mary were much taken with this Government and at their return in the time of Q. Elizabeth and ever since have endeavor'd to the great trouble of the Church and Nation to set up that Government here wherein they might domineer and applaud their own Wit and Learning And these took upon them not only a Divine Right but also a Divine Inspiration and having been connived at and countenanced sometimes in their frequent Preaching they introduced many strange and many pernicious Doctrines out-doing the Reformation as they pretended both of Luther and Calvin receding from the former Divinity or Church-Philosophy for Religion is another thing as much as Luther and Calvin had receded from the Pope and distracted their Auditors into a great number of Sects as Brownists Anabaptists Independants Fifth-Monarchy Men Quakers and divers others all commonly called by the name of Fanaticks insomuch as there was no so dangerous an Enemy to the Presbyterians as this Brood of their own hatching These were Cromwel's best Cards whereof he had a very great number in the Army and some in the House whereof he himself was thought one though he were nothing certain but applying himself always to the Faction that was strongest was of a colour like it There was in the Army a great number if not most part that aimed only at Rapine and sharing the Lands and Goods of their Enemies and these also upon the opinion they had of Cromwel's Valor and Conduct thought they could not any way better arrive at their Ends than by adhering to him Lastly In the Parliament it self though not the major part yet a considerable number were Fanaticks enow to put in doubts and cause delay in the Resolutions of the House and sometimes also by advantages of a thin
banished also from within 20 Miles of London all the loyal Party forbidding every one of them to depart more than five miles from his dwelling house B. They meant perhaps to have them ready if need were for a Massacre But what did the Scots in this time A. They were considering of the Officers of the Army which they were levying for the King how they might exclude from Command all such as had loyally serv'd his now Majesty's Father and all Independents and all such as commanded in Duke Hamilton's Army And these were the main things which passed this year The Marquess of Montross that had in the year 1645. with a few men and in a little time done things almost incredible against the late King's Enemies in Scotland landed now again in the beginning of the year 1650. in the North of Scotland with Commission from the present King hoping to do him as good service as he had formerly done his Father but the case was alter'd for the Scotch Forces were then in England in the service of the Parliament whereas now they were in Scotland and many more for their intended Invasion newly rais'd Besides the Souldiers which the Marquess brought over were few and Forreigners nor did the High-landers come in to him as he expected insomuch as he was soon defeated and shortly after taken and with more spightful usage than revenge requir'd Executed by the Covenanters at Edinborough May the 2d B. What good could the King expect from joining with these men who during the Treaty discover'd sâ— much malice to him in one of his one of his best Subjects A. No doubt their Church-men being then prevalent they would have done as much so this King as the English Parliament had done to his Father it they could have gotten by it that which they foolishly aspir'd to the Government of the Nation I do not believe that the Independents were worse than the Presbyterians both the one and the other were resolv'd to destroy whatsoever should stand in the way to their Ambition but necessity made the King pass over both this and many other Indignities from them rather than suffer the pursuit of his right in England to cool and be little better than extinguished B. Indeed I believe the Kingdom if suffered to become an old Debt will hardly ever be recover'd Besides the King was sure where-ever the Victory lighted he could lose nothing in the War but Enemies A. About the time of Montrosses death which was in May Cromwel was yet in Ireland and his work unfinished but finding or by his Friends advertis'd that his presence in the Expedition now preparing against the Scots would be necessary to his Design sent to the Rump to know their pleasure concerning his return But for all that he knew or thought it was not necessary to stay for their Answer but came away and arriv'd at London the sixth of June following and was welcom'd by the Rump Now had General Fairfax who was truly what he pretended to be a Presbyterian been so Catechis'd by the Presbyterian Ministers here that he refused to fight against the Brethren in Scotland nor did the Rump nor Cromwel go about to rectifie his Conscience in that point And thus Fairfax laying down his Commission Cromwel was now made General of all the Forces in England and Ireland which was another step to the Soveraign Power B. Where was the King A. In Scotland newly come over he landed in the North and was honourably conducted to Edinborough though all things was not yet well agreed upon between the Scots and him for he had yielded to as hard Conditions as the late King had yielded to in the Isle of Wight yet they had still somewhat to add till the King enduring no more departed from them towards the North again But they sent Messengers after him to pray him to return but they furnished these Messengers with strength enough to bring him back if he should have refus'd In fine they agreed but would not suffer the King or any Royalist to have Command in the Army B. The sum of all is the King was their Prisoner A. Cromwel from Berwick sends a Declaration to the Scots telling them he had no Quarrel against the people of Scotland but against the malignant Party that had brought in the King to the disturbance of the Peace between the two Nations and that he was willing by Conference to give and receive satisfaction or to decide the Justice of the Cause by Battel To which the Scots answering declare That they will not prosecute the Kings Interest before and without his acknowledgment of the sins of his House and his former ways and satisfaction given to Gods people in both Kingdoms Judge by this whether the present King was not in as bad a condition here as his Father was in the hands of the Presbyterians of England B. Presbyterians are every where the same they would fain be absolute Governours of all they converse with and have nothing to plead for it but that where they reign 't is God that reigns and no where else But I observe one strange demand that the King should acknowledg the sins of his House for I thought it had been certain from all Divines that no man was bound to acknowledg any mans sins but his own A. The King having yielded to all that the Church requir'd the Scots proceeded in their intended War Cromwel marched on to Edinborough provoking them all he could to Battel which they declining and provisions growing scarce in the English Army Cromwel retir'd to Dunbar despairing of success and intending by Sea or Land to get back into England And such was the condition which this General Cromwel so much magnified for Conduct had brought his Army to that all his Glories had ended in shame and punishment if Fortune's and the faults of his Enemies had not reliev'd him for as he retir'd the Scots follow'd him close all the way till within a mile of Dunbar There is a ridge of Hills that from beyond Edinborough goes winding to the Sea and crosses the High-way between Dunbar and Barwick at a Village called Copperspeith where the passage is so difficult that if the Scots had sent timely thither a very few men to guard it the English could never have passed for the Scots kept the Hills and needed not have fought but upon great advantage and were almost two to one Cromwel's Army was at the Foot of those Hills on the North side and there was a great Ditch or Channel of a Torrent between the Hills and it so that he could never have got home by Land nor without utter ruine of the Army attempted to ship it nor have stayed where he was for want of provisions Now Cromwel knowing the Pass was free and commanding a good Party of Horse and Foot to possess it it was necessary for the Scots to let them go whom they brag'd they had impoâ—â—ded er else to fight and
therefore with the best of their Horse charged the English and made them at first to shrink a little but the English Foot coming on the Scots were put to flight and the flight of their Horse hindred the Foot from engaging who therefore fled as did also the rest of their Horse Thus the folly of the Scotish Commanders brought all these odds to an even lay between two small and equal Parties wherein Fortune gave the Victory to the English who were not many more in number than those that were killed and taken Prisoners of the Scots and the Church lost their Cannon Bag and Baggage with 10000 Arms and almost their whole Army the rest were got together by Lesby to Sterling B. This Victory hapned well for the King for had the Scots been Victors the Presbyterians both there and here would have domineer'd again and the King been in the same condition his Father was in at Newcastle in the hands of the Scotish Army For in pursuit of this Victory the English at last brought the Scots to a pretty good habit of obedience for the King whensoever he should recover his Right A. In pursuit of this Victory the English marched to Edinborrough quitted by the Scots fortified Leith and took in all the strength and Castles they thought sit on this side the Frith which now was become the Bounds betwixt the two Nations and the Scotch Ecclesiasticks began to know themselves better and resolved in their new Army which they meant to raise to admit some of the Royalists into Command Cromwel from Edinborrough march'd towards Sterling to provoke the Enemy to fight but finding danger in it returned to Edinborrough and besieged the Castle In the mean time he sent a Party into the West of Scotland to suppress Strangham and Kerr two great presbyterians that were there levying of Forces for their new Army And in the same time the Scots Crowned the King at Schone The rest of this year was spent in Scotland on Cromwel's part in taking of Edinborrough Castle and in attempts to pass the Frith or any other ways to get over to the Scotish Forces and on the Scots part in hastening their Levies for the North. B. What did the Rump at home during this time A. They voted Liberty of Conscience to the Sectaries that is they pluckt out the sting of Presbytery which consisted in a severe imposing of odd Opinions upon the people impertinent to Religion but conducing to the advancement of the power of the Presbyterian Ministers Also they levyed more Souldiers and gave the Command of them to Harrison now made Major General a Fifth-Monarchy man and of those Souldiers two Regiments of Horse and one of Foot were raised by the Fifth-monarchy-men and other Sectaries in thankfulness for this their Liberty from the Presbyterian Tyranny Also they pull'd down the late Kings Statue in the Exchange and in the place where it stood caused to be written these words Exit Tyrannus Regum ultimus c. B. What good did that do them and why did they not pull down the Statues of all the rest of the Kings A. What account can be given of actions that proceed not from Reason but spight and such like passions Besides this they received Ambassadors from Portugal and Spain acknowledging their Power And in the very end of the Year they prepared an Ambassador to the Netherlands to offer them friendship All they did besides was persecuting and executing of Royalists In the beginning of the Year 1651. General Dean arrived in Scotland and on the 11th of April the Scotish Parliament assembled and made certain Acts in order to a better uniting of themselves and better obedience to the King who was now at Sterling with the Scotish Forces he had expecting more now in levying Cromwel from Edinborough went divers times to Sterling to provoke them to fight There was no Ford there to passover his men At last Boats being come from London and Newcastle Colonel Overton though it were long first for it was now July transported 1400 Foot of his own besides another Regiment of Foot and four Troops of Horse and intrencht himself at North-Ferry on the other side and before any help could come from Sterling Major General Lambert also was got over with as many more by this time Sir John Brown was come to oppose them with 4500 men whom the English there defeated killing about 2000 and taking Prisoners 1600. This done and as much more of the Army transported as was thought fit Cromwel comes before St. Johnston's from whence the Scotish Parliament upon news of his passing the Iriâ—h was removed to Dundes and summons it and the same day had news brought him that the King was marching from Sterling towards England which was true but notwithstanding the King was three days march before him he resolved to have the Town before he followed him and accordingly had it the next day by surrender B. What hopes had the King in coming into England having before and behind him none at least none armed but his Enemies A. Yes there was before him the City of London which generally hated the Rump and might easily be reckoned for 20000 well armed Souldiers and most men believed they would have taken his part had he come near the City B. What probability was there of that Do you think the Rump was not sure of the service of the Mayor and those that Commanded the City Militia And if they had been really the Kings Friends what need had they to stay his coming up to London They might have seiz'd the Rump if they had pleas'd which had no possibility of defending themselves at least they might have turn'd them out of the House A. This they did not but on the contrary permitted the recruiting of Cromwel's Army and the raising of men to keep the Country from coming in to the King The King began his march from Sterling the last of July and Aug. 22. came to Worcester by the way of Carlisâ—e with a weary Army of about 13000 whom Cromwel followed and joining with the new Levies environ'd Worcester with 40000 and on the third of September utterly defeated the Kings Army Here Duke Hamilton brother of him that was beheaded was slain B. What became of the King A. Night coming on before the City was quite taken he left it being dark and none of the Enemies Horse within the Town to follow him the plundering Foot having kept the Gates shut lest the Horse should enter and have a share of the Booty The King before morning got into Warwickshire 25 Miles from Worcester and there lay disgused a while and afterwards went up and down in great danger of being discovered till at last he got over into France from Brighthempstead in Sussex B. When Cromwel was gone what was farther done in Scotland A. Lieutenant Gen. Mâ—nk whom Cromwel left there with 7000 took Sterling August the 14th by surrender and Dundes the third of September by
BEHEMOTH OR AN EPITOME OF THE Civil Wars OF ENGLAND From 1640 to 1660. By THOMAS HOBS of Malmsbury LONDON Printed ANNO DOM. 1679 THE HISTORY OF THE Civil Wars OF ENGLAND A. IF in time as in place there were Degrees of high and low I verily believe that the highest of time would be that which passeth betwixt 1640 and 1660. For he that thence as from the Divils Mountain should have looked upon the World and observed the Actions of Men especially in England might have had a prospect of all kinds of Injustice and of all kinds of Folly that the world could afford and how they were produced by their Hypocrisy and self-conceit whereof the one is double Iniquity and the other double Folly B. I should be glad to behold the Prospect You that have lived in that time and in that part of your Age wherein Men used to see best into good and evil I pray you set â—â—e that could not see so well upon the same Mountain by the relation of the actions you then saw and of their causes Pretentions Justice Order Artifice and Events A. In the year 1640. The Government of England was Monarchical and the King that reigned Charles the I. of that Name holding the Soveraignty by Right of a Discent continued above 600 years and from a much longer Discent King of Sotland and from the Time of his Ancestors Henry the 2. King of Ireland a man that wanted no Vertue either of Body or Mind nor endeavour'd any thing more than to discharge his duty towards his God in the well-governing of his Subjects B. How could he than miscarry having in every County so many Train'd-bands as would put together have made an Army of 60000 Men and divers Magazines of Ammunition in places fortified If those Souldiers had been as they and all others of his Subjects ought to have been at his Majesties command The Peace and Happiness of the three Kingdoms had continued as it was left by K. James but the people were corrupted generally and Disobedient Persons esteemed the best Patriots B. But sure there were Men enough besides those that were ill-affected to have made an Army sufficient for to have kept the People from uniting into a Body able to oppose him A. Truly if the King had had Money I think he might have had Souldiers enough in England for there were very few of the common People that cared much for either of the Causes but would have taken any side for pay and plunder But the Kings Treasure was very low and his Enemies that pretended the Peoples ease from Taxes and other specious things had the Command of the Purses of the City of London and of most Cities and Corporate Towns in England and of many particular Persons besides B. But how comes the People to be so corrupted and what kind of People were they that did so seduce them A. The Seducers were of divers sorts One sort were Ministers Ministers as they called themselves of Christ and sometimes in their Sermons to the People Gods Embassadors pretending to have a Right from God to govern every one his Parish and their Assembly the whole Nation Secondly There were a very great number though not comparable to the other which notwithstanding that the Popes Power in England both Temporal and Ecclesiastical had been by Act of Parliament abolished did still retain a belief that we ought to be governed by the Pope whom they pretended to be the Vicar of Christ and in the Right of Christ to be the Governour of all Christian People and these were known by the Name of PAPISTS as the Ministers I mentioned before were commonly called PRESBYTERIANS Thirdly There were not a few who in the beginning of the Troubles were not discovered but shortly after declared themselves for a Liberty in Religion and those of different Opinions one from another Some of them because they would have all Congregations free and independant upon one another were called INDEPENDANTS others that held Baptism to Infants and such as understood not into what they are Baptized to be ineffectual were called therefore ANABAPTISTS Others that held that Christs Kingdom was at this time to begin upon Earth were called FIFTH-MONARCHY-MEN besides divers other Sects as QUAKERS ADAMITES c. whose names and peculiar Doctrines I do not very well remember and these were the Enemies which arose against his Majesty from the private Interpretation of the Scripture exposed to every Mans scanning in his Mother Tongue Fourthly There were an exceeding great number of Men of the greater sort that had been so educated as that in their youth having read the Books written by famous men of the Ancient Grecian and Roman Commonwealths concerning their Policy and great Actions in which Book the Popular Government was extol'd by that glorious Name of Liberty and Monarchy disgraced by the Name of Tyranny they became thereby in love with their form of Government And out of these men were chosen the greatest part of the HOUSE OF COMMONS Or if they were not the greatest part yet by advantage of their Eloquence were always able to sway the rest Fifthly The City of London and other great Towns of Trade having in admiration the prosperity of the low Countries after they had revolted from their Monarch the King of Spain were inclined to think that the like change of Government here would to them produce the like prosperity Sixthly There were a very great Number that had either wasted their fortunes or thought them too mean for the good part they thought were in themselves and more there were that had able bodies and saw no means how honestly to get their Bread These longed for a War and hoped to maintain themselves hereafter by the lucky chusing of a Party to side with and consequently did for the most part serve under them that had greatest plenty of Money Lastly The People in general were so ignorant of their Duties as that not one perhaps of 1000. knew what Right any man had to command him or what necessity there was of King or Commonwealth for which he was to part with his Money against his will but thought himself to be so much Master of whatsoever he possest that it could not be taken from him upon any pretence of Common Safety without his own consent King they thought was but a Title of the highest honour which Gentlemen Knight Baron Earl Duke were but steps to ascend to with the help of Riches and had no Rule of Equity but Precedents and Custom and he was thought wisest and fittest to be chosen for a Parliament who was worst averse to the granting of Subsidies or other publick Payments B. In such a Constitution of People methinks the King is already outed of his Government so as they need not have taken Arms for it For I cannot imagine how the King should come by any means to resist them A. There was indeed very great difficulty in the business but of
believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democracy and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourable laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole World What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls a greater skill in the Scriptures than other men have by reason of their breeding in the Universities and knowledge there gotten of the Latin Tongue and some also of the Greek and Hebrew Tongues wherein the Scriptures were written besides their knowledge of Natural Philosophy which is there publickly taught B. As for the Latin Greek and Hebrew it was once to the Detection of the Roman Fraud and to the Ejection of the Romish Power very profitable or rather necessary But now that is done and we have the Scripture in English and Preaching in English I see no great need of Latin Greek and Hebrew I should think my self better qualified by under standing well the Languages of our Neighbours French Dutch and Italian I think it was never seen in the world before the Power of Popes was setup that Philosophy was much conducing to power in a Commonwealth A. But Philosophy together with Divinity hath very much conduced to the Advancement of the Professors thereof to places of the greatest Authority next to the Authority of Kings themselves in most of the Antient Kingdoms of the world as is manifestly to be seen in the History of those times B. I pray you cite me some of the Authors and places A. First what were the Druids of old time in Britany and France what Authority these had you may see in Caesar Strabo and others and especially in Diodorus Siculus the greatest Antiquary perhaps that ever was who speaking of the Druids which he calls Sarovides in France saith thus There be also amongst them certain Philosophers and Theologians that are exceedingly honoured whom they also use as Prophets These men by their skill in Augury and Inspection into the Bowels of Beasts sacrificed foretel what is to come and have the multitude in obedience to them and a little after It is a custom amongst them that no man may sacrifice without a Philosopher because say they men ought not to present their Thanks to the Gods but by them that know the Divine Nature and are as it were of the same language with them and that all good things ought by such as these to be prayed for B. I can hardly believe that those Druids were very skilful either in Natural Philosophy or Moral A. Nor I for they held and taught the Transmigration of Souls from one Body to another as did Pythagoras which Opinion whether they took from him or he from them I cannot tell What were the Magi in Persia but Philosophers and Astrologers You know how they came to find our Saviour by the Conduct of a Star either from Persia it self or from some Country more Eastward than Judea were not these in great Authority in their Country And are they not in most part of Christendom thought to have been Kings Aegypt hath been thought by many the most Antient Kingdom and Nation of the world and their Priests had the greatest power in Civil Affairs that any Subject ever had in any Nation And what were they but Philosophers and Divines Concerning whom the same Diodorus Siculus saies thus The whole Country of Egypt being divided into three parts the Body of the Priests have One as being of most credit with the people both for their Devotions towards the Gods and also for their Understanding gotten by Education and presently after for generally those men in the greatest Affairs of all the King's Councellors partly Executing and partly Informirg and Advising foretelling him also by their skill in Astrology and Art in the Inspection of Sacrifices the things that are to come and reading to him out of their Holy Books such of the Actions there recorded as are profitable for him to know 'T is not there as in Greece one man or one woman that has thé Priesthood but they are many that attend the Honours and Sacrifices of the Gods and leave the same Imployment to their posterity which next to the King have the greatest Power and Authority Concerning the Judicature amongst the Aegyptians he saith thus From out of the most eminent Cities Hieropolis Thebes and Memphis they chuse Judges which are Council not inferiour to that of Areopagus in Athens or that of the Senate in Lacedoemon when they are met being in number thirty they chuse one from among themselves to be Chief Justice and the City whereof he is sendeth another in his place This Chief Justice wore about his neck hung in a gold Chain a Jewel of precious Stones the name of which Jewel was Truth which when the Chief Justice had put on then began the Pleading c. And when the Judges had agreed on the Sentence then did the Chief Justice put this Jewel of Truth on one of the Pleas. You see now what power was acquired in Civil matters by the conjuncture of Philosophy and Divinity Let us come now to the
a Member of the Lords House and Hollis Haslerig Hampden Prinn and Stroud five Members of the Lower House of High Treason and after the Parliament had Voted out the Bishops from the House of Peers they pursued especially two things in their Petitions to His Majesty the one was that the King would declare who were the persons that advised him to go as he did to the Parliament-House to apprehend them and that he would leave them to the Parliament to receive condign punishment and this they did to stick upon His Majesty the dishonour of Deserting his Friends and betraying them to his Enemies The other was that he would allow a Guard out of the City of London to be commanded by the Earl of Essex for which they pretended they could not else sit in safety which pretence was nothing but an upbraiding of His Majesty for coming to Parliament better accompanied than ordinary to seize the said five sedicious Members B. I see no reason in petitioning for a Guard they should determine it to the City of London in particular and the Command by name to the Earl of Essex unless they meant the King should understand it a Guard against himself A. Their meaning was that the King should understand it so and as I verily believe they meant he should take it as an affront and the King himself understanding it so denied to grant it though he were willing if they could not otherwise be satisfied to command such a Guard to wait upon them as he would be responsible for to God Almighty Besides this the City of London petition'd the King put upon it no doubt by some Member of the Lower House to put the Tower of London into the hands of persons of Trust meaning such as the Parliament should approve of And so appoint a Guard for the safety of His Majesty and the Parliament This method of bringing Petitions in a Tumultuary manner by great multitudes of Clamorous people was ordinary with the House of Commons whose Ambition could never have been served by way of Prayer and Request without extraordinary terror After the King had waved the prosecution of the five Members but denied to make known who had advised Him to come in person to the House of Commons they questioned the Attorney-General who by the King's command had Exhibited the Articles against them and Voted him A Breaker of the Priviledge of Parliament And no doubt had made him feel their Cruelty if he had not speedily fled the Land About the end of January they made an Order of both Houses of Parliament to prevent the going over of Popish Commanders into Ireland not so much fearing that as that by this the King Himself choosing his Commanders for that Service might aid Himself out of Ireland against the Parliament But this was no great matter in respect of a Petition they sent His Majesty about the same time that is to say about the Twenty seventh or Twenty eighth of January 1641. wherein they desired in effect the absolute Soveraignty of England though by the name of Soveraignty they challeng'd it not whil'st the King was living for to the end that the fears and dangers of this Kingdom might be removed and the mischievous designs of those who are Enemies to the Peace of it might be prevented they pray that His Majesty would be pleased to put forthwith First The Tower of London Secondly All other Forts Thirdly The whole Militia of the Kingdom into the hands of such Persons as should be recommended to him by both the Houses of Parliament And this they style a necessary Petition B. Were there really any such fears and dangers generally conceived here Or did there appear any Enemies at that time with such designs as are mentioned in the Petition A. Yes but no other fear of danger but such as discreet and honest men might justly have of the designs of the Parliament it self who were the greatest Enemies to the Peace of the Kingdom that could possibly be 'T is also worth observing that this Petition began with these words Most Gracious Sovereign so stupid they were as not to know that he that is Master of the Militia is Master of the Kingdom and consequently is in possession of a most absolute Sovereignty The King was now at Windsor to avoid the Tumults of the Common People before the Gates at Whitehall together with the Clamors and and Affronts there the Ninth of February after he came to Hampton Court and thence went to Dover with the Queen and the Princess of Orange his Daughter where the Queen with the Princess of Orange embarked for Holland but the King returned to Greenwich whence he sent for the Prince of Wales and the Duke of York and so went with them towards York B. Did the Lorâ—s join with the Commons in this Petition for the Militia A. It appears so by the Title but I believe they durst not but do it the House of Commons took them but for a Cypher Men of Title onely without real Power but they were very much mistaken for the House of Commons never intended they should be sharers in it B. What Answer made the King to this Petition A. That when He shall know the Extent of Power which is intended to be established in those persons whom they desire to be the Commanders of the Militia in the several Counties and likewise to what time it shall be limited that no Power shall be Executed by His Majesty alone without the advice of Parliament then he will declare that for the securing them from all Dangers or Jealousies of any then His Majesty will be content to put into all the places both Forts and Militia in the several Counties such persons as both the Houses of Parliament shall either approve or recommend unto him so that they declare before unto His Majesty the names of the persons whom they approve or recommend unless such persons shall be nam'd against whom he shall have just and unquestionable Exceptions B. What Power For what Time And to whom did the Parliament grant concerning the Militia A. The same Power which the King had before planted in his Lieutenants and his Deputy-Lieutenants in the several Counties and without other limitation of time but their own pleasure B. Who were the Men that had this Power A. There is a Catalogue of them Printed they are very many and most of them Lords nor is it necessary to have them nam'd for to name them is in my opinion to brand them with the mark of Disloyalty or of Folly When they had made a Catalogue of them they sent it to the King with a new Petition for the Militia Also presently after they sent a Message to His Majesty praying Him to leave the Prince at Hampton Court but the King granted neither B. Howsoever it was well done of them to get Hostages if they could of the King before He went from them A. In the mean time to raise Mony
Storm because it resisted this the Soldiers plundered and had good booty because the Scots for safety had sent thither their most precious Goods from Edinborrough and St. Johnston's he took likewise by surrender Aberdeen and the place where the Scotish Ministers first learned to play the Fools St. Andrews Also in the Highlands Colonel Alured took a knot of Lords and Gentlemen viz. four Earls and four Lords and above twenty Knights and Gentlemen whom he sent Prisoners into England so that there was nothing more to be feared from Scotland all the trouble of the Rump was to resolve what they should do with it at last they resolved to Unite and Incorporate it into a Common-wealth with England and Ireland and to that end sent thither St. Johns Vane and other Commissioners to offer them this Union by publick Declaration and to warn them to chuse their Deputies of Shires and Burgesses of Towns and send them to Westminster B. This was a great favour A. I think so and yet it was by many of the Scots especially by the Ministers and other Presbyterians refused the Ministers had given way to the Levying of Money for the payment of the English Soldiers but to comply with the Declaration of English Commissioners they absolutely forbad B. Methinks this contributing to the pay of their Conquerors was some mark of Servitude where entring into the Union made them free and gave them equal Priviledge with the English A. The cause why they refused the Union rendered by the Presbyterians themselves was this That it drew with it a subordination of the Church to the Civil State in the things of Christ B. This is a down-right Declaration to all Kings and Common-wealths in general that a Presbyterian Minister will be a true Subject to none of them in the things of Christ which things what they are they will be Judges themselves what then have we gotten by our Deliverance from the Popes Tyranny if these pretty men succeed in the place of it that having nothing in them that can be beneficial to the Publick except their silence for their Learning it amounts to no more than an imperfect knowledge of Greek and Latin and acquir'd readiness in the Scripture Language with a Gesture and Tone suitable thereunto but of Justice and Charity the manners of Religion they have neither knowledge nor practice as is manifest by the Stories I have already told you nor do they distinguish between the Godly and Ungodly but by Conformity of Design in men of Judgment or by Repetition of their Sermons in the Common sort of people A. But this sullenness of the Scots was to no purpose for they at Westminster Enacted the Union of the two Nations and the Abolition of Monarchy in Scotland and ordained Punishment for those that should transgress the Act. B. What other business did the Rump this year A. They sent St Johns and Strickland Ambassadors to the to Hague to offer League to the Vnited Provinces who had Audiance March the third St. Johns in a Speech shewed those States what advantage they might have by this League in their Trade and Navigations by the use of the English Ports and Harbors the Dutch though they shewed no great forwardness in the business yet appointed Commissioners to treat with them about it but the people were generally against it calling the Ambassadors and their Followers as they were Traytors and Murderers and made such Tumults about their House that their Followers durst not go abroad till the â—tates had quieted them the Rump advertis'd hereof presently recall'd them the Complement which St. Johns gave to the Commissioners at their taking leave is worth your hearing You have said he an Eye upon the Event of the Affairs of Scotland and therefore do refuse the Friendship we have offered now I can assure you many in the Parliament were of Opinion that we should not have sent any Ambassadors to you till we expected your Ambassadors to us I now perceive our Error and that those Gentlemen were in the right In a short time you shall see that business ended when it shall perplex you that you have refus'd our proffer B. S. Johns was not sure that the Scotish business would end as it did for though the Scots were beaten at Dunbar he could not be sure of the Event of their entering of England which happened afterward A. But he guess'd well for within a Month after the Battel at Worcester an Act passed forbidding the importing of Merchandize in other than English Ships The English also molested their Fishing upon our Coast They also many times searched their Ships upon occasion of our War with France and made some of them Prize and then the Dutch sent their Ambassadors hither to desire what they before refus'd but partly also to inform themselves what Naval Forces the English had ready and how the people were contented with the Government B. How sped they A. The Rump shewed now as little desire of Agreement as the Dutch did then standing upon terms never likely to be granted First For the Fishing on the English Coast that they should not have it without paying for it Secondly That the English should have free Trade form Middleburgh to Antwerp as they had before their Rebellion against the King of Spain Thirdly They demanded amends for the old but never-to-be-forgotten business of Amboyna so that the War was already certain though the Season kept them from Action till the Spring following The true Quarrel on the English part was that their proffer'd Friendship was scorn'd and their Ambassadours affronted On the Dutch part was their greediness to ingross all Traffick and a false Estimate of our and their own strength Whilst these things were doing the Reliques of the War both in Ireland and Scotland were not neglected though these Nations were not fully pacified till two years after The Persecution of Royalits also still continued among whom was beheaded one M. Love for holding Correspondence with the King B. I had thought Presbyterian Ministers whilest they were such could not be Royalists because they think their Assembly have the Supreme Power in the things of Christ and by consequence they are in England by a Statute Traytors A. You may think so still for though I called Mr. Love a Royalist I meant it only for that one act for which he was condemned It was he who during the treaty at Vxbridge preaching before the Commissioners there said It was as possible for Heaven and Hell as for the King and Parliament to agree Both he and the rest of the Presbyterians are and were Enemies to the Kings Enemies Cromwel and his Phanaticks for their own not for the King's sake Their Loyalty was like that of Sir John Hotham that kept the King out of Hull and afterwards would have betrayed the same to the Marquess of New-castle These Presbyterians therefore cannot be rightly called Loyal but rather doubly perfidious unless you think that as two