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A82528 A friendly debate on a weighty subject: or, a conference by writing betwixt Mr Samuel Eaton and Mr John Knowles concerning the divinity of Iesus Christ: for the beating out, and further clearing up of truth. Eaton, Samuel, 1596?-1665.; Knowles, John, fl. 1646-1668. 1650 (1650) Wing E121; Thomason E609_16; ESTC R205964 49,997 66

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Reason If Reason may obtain credit she will tell us that there could be in the work of Creation but one Principall Agent because there is by nature and in way of eminency but one God For if there were two Principall Agents there must be two Gods in way of eminency the terms being convertible which to affirm would be absurd and easily disproved And therefore if Jesus Christ were any he was but an Instrumentall Agent in that work of Creation The Third Reason issues from the nature of Christs being That whole Christ is a creature hath been already proved yet let me adde a word from Col. 1.15 which doth immediately precede the Text now in question Christ is there called the image of the invisible God and so is distinguished from God because the image and the thing whereof it is an image are not the same in that nothing can be the image of its self Now he is called the image of the invisible God in that God through him did principally manifest and declare his Divine Glory and in that the chiefest Dominion of the creature was by the Father committed to him in this sense man is called the image and glory of God 1 Cor. 11.7 He is also called the first-born of every creature whereby he is ranked among the creatures yet so as that he is the Head of them Now if whole Christ be a creature then will it unavoidably follow that he was but an Instrument in the work of Creation for God and creatures are contradistinct and he could not be unless he were God a Principall Agent The fourth Reason doth spring from the manner of Christs working 1. Though he had an hand in the Creation of the world yet was it not originally of him 1 Cor. 8.6 where the Apostle doth plainly shew us that all things are of God even the Father and that all things are by not of Jesus Christ and so the Son is distinguished from the Father in the work of Creation the Father being the first cause and originall of all things and Christ the instrument of the Father by whom he did manifest his Divine Glory in producing creatures 2. Instrumentum Minist Ter. In that in the work of Creation the Scripture tells us that God acted by him Ephes 3.9 where 't is said That God created all things by Jesus Christ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Just 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Theoph. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Origin So in Heb. 1.2 which openly hold forth Jesus Christ as Gods instrument in creating the world He is frequently called by the Fathers the Instrument and Servant of God But you endeavour to strengthen your Proposition by a Reason such as 't is drawn from impossibility God could say you make use of no instrument in the work of Creation But Sir this assertion derogates from Gods All-sufficiency Is any thing impossible with God Is any thing too hard for the Lord 2. It contradicts your own testimony I remember that in a Conference where I exercised both silence and patience to the Glory of God since I received your paper you did affirm in the hearing of not a few that God might at first have made an Angel or some other creature and by it have made all things How to reconcile one with the other is a thing unfeasible and therefore you must confess that you are not always infallible yea that sometimes you differ from your self and so 't is no wonder if you disagree with others But what shall I take from your present judgement Must your last words stand If so then you have weakned your cause and I may save a labour in returning an answer to that which follows in your paper If the former then you must recant what you last said and I must not here make an end of my Reply to your Major The truth is I honour Reason so much that I should rather prostrate my self to its shadow and appearance then to the best mans testimony and assertion wherefore I shall honour Reason so much as not to pass by without examination that which appears in your paper with Reasons dress on it Your Reason thus runs Now because Creation is a making of all things out of nothing and required an infinite power God can make use of no Instrument inasmuch as God cannot derive and give an infinite power to any creature because no creature is capable of such a Divine Attribute for it would make him God to be Almighty or to be infinite in power Answ I shall not answer to all in this Reason which seems not to be sound doctrine but only so far as the matter in hand requires 1. Though it be true that Gods infinite power was manifested in the work of Creation yet was not the Infinity of his Power manifested fully in that or any other work for he hath more power then ever yet he had need to use or then could in any work be fully declared 2. Your assertion plainly denies the man Christ Jesus to be God Almighty or Infinite in power for you say that God could not give or derive an infinite power to any creature and that a creature cannot be God Almighty c. The man Christ Jesus was a creature how then can that Person be God 3. The ground of your Argument is straw and stubble For infinite power may be manifested by them to whom 't is not communicated and so their proper power As is evident in those that wrought miracles and raised the dead in which infinite power was manifested and yet the instruments thereof were not in power infinite The like might be said of Gospel-Preachers whom God makes his Instruments in mens conversion as great a work as the worlds Creation The same might be said of Christ in his work of our Redemption But enough of this I shall now examine your Minor which was That all things were made by Iesus Christ. This is true Christ being excepted of whose Creatural being I have already spoken Obj. But you will say that in Iohn 1.3 it is said That all things were made by him and without him was nothing Made that was Made Sol. The words are to be restrained to all those things which by the use of an instrument were made and created In the first verse of this Chapter the creation of Jesus Christ is included and in this third verse he is spoken of as the instrument of God in creating all things and therefore is here to be excepted As when John the Baptist speaking of Christ John 3.32 said What he hath seen and heard that he testifieth and no man receiveth his testimony it is evident that Iohn was to be excepted Persons are sometimes segregated from others of the same kinde in way of eminency being chief amongst them Thus in Psal 18.1 where 't is said that David sang that song when the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul What was
Saul none of Davide enemies he was the chiefest and therefore segregated from the rest Thus having taken off the Charet wheels of your Argument the Conclusion cannot advance up by its assistance I Come now to Heb. 7.3 Heb. 7.3 Answ I perceive you are willing to gather from this Text the Eternity of Iesus Christ but on this tree grows no such fruit You say that Christ is here resembled in reference to his Eternity to Melchisedek without beginning of days or end of life Pray Sir was Melchisedek Eternal If so then he was God But he was neither the Father nor the Son nor the Holy Ghost whatever some have conceived I hope you will not allow a quaternity of Persons in Unity of Essence And therefore will allow that the words be taken in a figurative sense Quod non narratur ponitur quasi non sit Melchisedek was without beginning of days or end of life in that there is no mention made either of his birth or death in the History of Moses or especially in reference to his Priesthood the time of its beginning and ending being not certainly known So our High Priest Jesus Christ is without beginning of days or end of life YOur next Scripture is Prov. 8.22 Prov. 8.22 Answ The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way before his works of old I was set up from Everlasting from the Beginning or ever the Earth was The meaning is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Sept. The Lord who is Possessour of Heaven and Earth obtained or created me when he began to work before all his ancient works And I was set up or anointed to have the dominion of all things and that from Everlasting that is from the Beginning before the Earth was The Septuagint have the words thus The Lord created me the beginning of his ways for his works Dominus acquisivit me principium viaesuae ante opera ex tunc A saeculo principatum babui à capite ab initiis terrae Mont. He founded me in the Beginning before the Earth was made Montanus thus The Lord obtained me the beginning of his way before his works from thence I had dominion from Everlasting from the Beginning from the beginning of the Earth The thirtieth verse speaks of Christ as having a being before Gods works of old yet so as that it was created one THE Scripture which follows next in your Paper Zach. 13.7 is Zach. 13.7 Awake O Sword against my Shepheard against the man that is my fellow saith the Lord of Hosts Answ I suppose that you would infer hence the coequality of Jesus Christ with the Lord of Hosts whose words those are But doubtless when you drew up this Conclusion you hearkned to the sound not the sense of our English word Fellow which doth not always note equality as from Psalm 45.7 and Heb. 1.9 you may be informed where the Saints are called the Fellows of Christ from which none acquainted with Reason or Scripture will conclude their coequality with him Had you consulted with the Hebrew word used in the Text you would have been a stranger to so strange an inference For the words translated My Fellow might be rendred My Citizen my Neighbour my Second Hebraea vox proximum aut amicum sonat qui stat è regione alterius Et praesto est à emnia amici officia comparatus quamobrem idem in sinu patris esse ad dexteram illius sedere dicitur intercedens pro nobis Trem. in Locum my Lievtenant my Vicar my Friend So the Septuagint 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the man my Citizen or Neighbour Tremelius thus Virum proximum meum The man my Second my Lievetenant my Neighbour my Vicar or the like Tremellius and Iunius in their Marginal Notes speak thus The Hebrew word say they signifies one that is very near or a friend who stands over against another and is ready at hand for all friendly offices wherefore the same to wit Jesus Christ is said to be in the bosome of the Father and to sit at his right hand interceding for us And so the words acquaint us with these two things especially 1. That Christ is the Principall object of Gods dearest affection The man my fellow quem maxime amo saith Groti us whom I most of all love 2. That Christ is Gods Principal Servant in his highest tranfactions One that is Gods Representative as the word in the Text holds forth and the Scripture everywhere speaks I might now collect from the words something to oppose the Doctrine you assert they being spoken of a man and in reference to the Lord of Hosts who cannot possibly have an equall unless it were possible to have two Gods BUT I shall pass by that and hasten to the Scripture next appearing which is Iohn 3.13 John 3.13 And no man hath ascended up to Heaven but he that came down from Heaven the Son of Man which is in Heaven Answ Sir what your intent was in alledging this Text I no whit doubt but the reason of your inference thence is yet to me unknown Thus the words may be understood No man hath ascended up into Heaven that is no man hath known those Divine things the knowledge whereof is reserved for another life or those Divine things which are known in this life as they are in themselves nakedly appearing without their earthly habits and as expressed in a remote and Angelicall Language But he that came down from Heaven the Son of Man being in Heaven that is The Son being excepted who was in Heaven and descended thence for some work which he had to do on Earth or thus he being excepted who came down from Heaven to wit the Son of Man who is in Heaven that is in the bosome of the Father knowing his Secrets and Divine things as they are in themselves notwithstanding he speaks only of those things and in that way which men are now capable of I shall countenance this Exposition with a few Reasons 1. Because this sense and meaning wherewithall I have cloathed those words is no way opposite to the analogy of faith There is nothing as I suppose to be picked out of my words which the Doctrine of the Gospel will pick a quarrell with But this Exposition lessens the number of those Texts that plead for Christ as most high God But let not Scripture be forced let every Text speak what it knows To misapply is to pervert Scriptures 2. Because the sense which I would that this text should own and allow is elswhere challenged by the like phrases to themselves as their due Ascendere in coelum to ascend into heaven is to penetrate the secrets of heaven as Grotius speaks on this place In the like manner doth Musculus and Bucer understand the words In the same sense is the like phrase to be taken Prov. 30.4 and so Piscator expounds it And thus to be in heaven is to