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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A35922	A dialogue betwixt Whig and Tory, aliàs Williamite and Jacobite Wherein the principles and practices of each party are fairly and impartially stated; that thereby mistakes and prejudices may be removed from amongst us, and all those who prefer English liberty, and Protestant religion, to French slavery and popery, may be inform'd how to choose fit and proper instruments for our preservation in these times of danger.	Defoe, Daniel, 1661?-1731, attributed name.; Overton, Benjamin, attributed name.	1693 (1693)	Wing D1361; ESTC R229679	34,923	48

their Party Our Saviour himself had a Iudas amongst his Twelve and yet that did not at all discredit the Doctrine and Principles of the Apostles not does our having some Knaves among us make it as reasonable and equal to adhere to your Party that are the professed Enemies of their King and Country as to depend on those who have generally in all Times and on all Occasions declar'd their Affection to their Country Love of its Laws and Religion and have since the Revolution shewed their Zeal for the present Establishment Tory. Just now you seem'd to agree to a Comprehension and were for welcoming the Prodigals as you call'd them now you are for excluding them again Whig No I am for receiving any Tory as I told you that seeks the Government and becomes a true Penitent But I would not have the Government seek them nor would I have them entrusted in this critical time without some Marks of their Repentance and Regeneracy and by our Easiness give them the opportunity of selling us to the French King or King Iames as I fear some of them do at this time Tory. All that 's Malice and Stuff and not reasonably to be apprehended And I tell you once more it is the Opinion of some wise Men that the King cannot follow a more fatal Counsel than to confine himself to any one Party of his Subjects Whig Then your Patrons have been advising him fatally these four Years for they have been perswading the King to throw himself entirely into your Hands Tory. They never refus'd to receive any Whig that would comply and come under their Protection but if the King will choose any one Party I think we of the Church are the most numerous and considerable and are fittest as such to be employ'd by him Whig Now you are retired into your Sanctuary the Church you think you are safe and it is indeed dangerous pursuing you But however I 'll venture it and since you force me I must repeat again some of those Arguments I have given you already why you are not fit to be trusted by this Government First you Tories do not believe your selves King William's Subjects and therefore are very unfit to be employ'd by him as his Servants Secondly It cools the Affections of the People to see those employ'd in Places of highest Trust who they have a Demonstration are not for the Government even when they are in it And by this Method it is plain the King according to the Fable loses his Shoulder of Mutton by catching at the Shadow and by aiming at both Parties he hath neither Tory. I confess I am for the King 's relying on one Party as much as you are tho not yours but however there are great and wise Men as I told you of another Opinion and I have heard it ask'd Why this Method of uniting all Parties should not have as good an Effect here as in Holland for there the Prince of Orange reconcil'd all to the common Interest Whig I 'll tell you why First it appears all Parties there sincerely intended the Good of the Government which it is too plain is not your Case Secondly Neither Party had any other Head to repair to as you Tories have the Prince of Orange had no pretending Rival to the Right of Statholder But the King hath here a Rival a Father-in-Law who pretends a Right to the Crown who is supported by the greatest Power that ever was known in Europe so as to make the Event appear doubtful even to those who are most zealous for this Government And by this means the Friends of King Iames are encouraged to be firm to his Interests and Neutrals nay and even his fearful Enemies are frighted from acting with a Zeal against him Is this a time then to be trying Experiments to put our selves and Affairs into the Hands of Men bred up and principled against the Design of this Government Is this a time to reconcile our selves to our Enemies and to take Men out of Plots and place them in our Cabinet No sure with my Lord N 's leave this is not the time In this time of Danger those who have been the antient and declar'd Enemies of King Iames and who have most reason to expect being hang'd if he return are most fit for the King to rely on But when these Difficulties are master'd as much Comprehension as you please In the mean time your Education in Toryism your Obligations to King Iames and which is more than both your present Hopes from him will make you so averse to this Government that no Favour no Courtship can engage your heartily in its Interests and it is Nonsense to expect you should fight for a Title you have always declar'd to disapprove of Tory. You are always harping upon that String But supposing we do not approve of the making him King yet we know how to obey Kings when they are made But you after you have made a King are using him like your Creature clipping his Power and ● finding Fault with his Conduct For my part if I were a King would sooner forgive a Man that dislik'd my Title than one who dislik'd my Conduct Whig Why then Mr. Tory you would be none of the wisest Princes For he who finds fault with your Conduct may be your Friend but he who finds fault with your Title must be your Enemy or else a Knave and acts against his Conscience But how does this Article appear of the Whigs being dissatisfied with the King's Conduct in any Point but in his employing you and the Consequences of it Is it from giving chearfully whatever Sums were demanded in Parliament Is it being ready to advance Money upon the most remote Funds in offering their Persons to the Publick Service in all times of Danger notwithstanding all Brow-beatings and Discouragements by breaking all Measures with King Iames and his Party that they discover their Dislikes and Dissatisfactions to the King or his Government But if they disapprove that the Friends of King Iames should be King William's Ministers that those should be plac'd in all Offices who hate him and betray him Will he have Reason to take their Dislike of this part of his Conduct so very unkindly from them as to forgive it less than your renouncing his Right and Title to the Crown But your Tories have got a Trick of bringing Kings into your Quarrels as the Priests do God Almighty into theirs and by placing them before you hope to make your selves safe not caring how much you expose them and you impudently place your own Crimes unfairly upon others and whilst you your selves are daily Libelling and Lampooning the King's Person and Conduct most maliciously and triumphing in all his Misfortunes ingratefully witness the publick Insolencies at the Bath and Windsor upon the late Defeat in Flanders you according to your wonted Modesty charge the Whigs with your own Faults and avoid being Criminals by turning Accusers Tory.

shewed to you Tories in spight of all your apparent Hatred of his Person as well as your profess'd Dislike of his Title and Government and the Aversion he hath shew'd to the Whigs and Contempt of all their Advances and Addresses hath begotten ugly Reasonings in jealous and prying Men as if there were a Biass towards the Principles of former Governments rather than to those this Government declar'd for and set up upon And even the wise and well meaning Tories begin once again to smell a T d when you hold it so near their Noses But come proceed Tory. You are likewise accus'd of being wedded to a Party and by that means will reduce his Majesty to be King of a Faction only of his Subjects Whig This will appear much otherwise if you will please to remember who brought in the E. of N. to be Secretary of State and many others of that Party and how few of your Faction were displac'd by the Whigs when they had Interest with the King But this Charge will appear most foully true upon you who by the basest Ingratitude and Villany fell upon undermining those who brought you into the Government the minute you were possess'd of the King's Ear. And yet you see notwithstanding all your barbarous Treatment of us We have always come in chearfully to all Votes for Money all Loans and all other Measures to support your Credit and the Common Interest till both are fallen so low that the Peoples Clamours were never so loud nor their Dissatisfactions never so great You like Solomon's Harlot are for tearing the Government asunder if you may not have the Possession of it We have shew'd on the other hand true Motherly-Tenderness and consented rather that it should remain in your Possession entirely than be torn in pieces betwixt us till it appear'd to all the World what a vile Step-Mother you have been and how you have starv'd and abus'd a Government worthy your most indulgent Tenderness and Care And yet I am not for refusing any Tory that gives Proof of his sincere Repentance and of a Love to his Country but with all my Heart would give my share of the fatted Calf to make the returning Prodigal welcome tho I cannot but think it reasonable that you should submissively seek the Government and not the Government submissively seek you that you should own your Sin against Heaven and against your Country and give Security of another course of Life for the future and not justify your Faults and persevere in them If I could see amongst any of you the least Consideration for the common Good and Benefit of Mankind and the universal Welfare of your Fellow-Creatures to which you are bound by the Law of God and the Law of Nature and to which all the Heathens who were not barbarous paid a most profound Reverence and Obedience and preferr'd to all private Interest to Wives Children Estate nay to Life it self If I can find any amongst you a Lover of his Country a sincere Supporter of the Laws Liberties and Interest of the English Nation I am as much his Servant tho he be a N a C or a R as if he were a S a R a S or a T But instead of shewing any Regard to the Interest of the Nation any Bowels for your Country any Self-denial in point of private Interest Have you not sold your Country and their Birth-rights upon all occasions like Esau for a Mess of Pottage Have not some of you put off Human Nature Human Reason and all common Honesty so far as to conspire to bring in a French Power to gratify your private and personal Piques To bring in Popery and Slavery to rule over you because you cannot Tyrannically rule over your Fellow-Subjects Remember what the Presbyterians got by being so active in restoring the two late Popish Kings hoping to be reveng'd thereby upon the Independents and other Dissenters Were they not mingled in the same Persecution with the others nay more oppress'd and mark'd out for Wrath as being more numerous and more considerable than any other Sect Just so must the Church and their Proselytes expect to fare from the Hands of their Popish Friends whose Cause they are so zealously propagating they may admit them to the Honour of being the Cat's-foot but not a bit of the Chesnut No Whig no Fanatick but will then have as fair Quarter at least from King Lewis as you for King Iames I take to be only a Cypher and Property to your French Lord and Master who when he hath finished his Work will finish his Life too And do you Iure Divino you truly Loyal Gentlemen think that you will find more Favour then for being more attach'd to King Iames's Interest No be assured the most inveterate Enemies of King Iames will meet with as favourable a Treatment at least as you who have professed your selves so violently enamour'd of King Iames's Person and of the right Line Reflect a little upon the King of France's Conduct at the time of the late Revolution He knew long before the Prince of Orange's design of making a Descent into England and could have prevented it a thousand ways but instead of that he writes to Barillon then his Ambassador in England to know in what Condition King Iames was to oppose the Prince's Forces He being a Foreigner and judging only by outward Appearances represents the Army of King Iames sufficiently powerful to resist what Force the Prince of Orange could bring whereupon the French King believing that the English and Dutch would by this means weaken and destroy one another and leave a fair Game for him the next Year against the Emperor and Flanders and to take away all Apprehension from the Dutch of their needing an Army for their own Defence and to give all Encouragement to their Design upon England he draws all his Troops from the side of Flanders and falls upon Philipsburg which Army if he had marched towards the Spanish Frontiers in Flanders the Dutch durst not have transported a Man and the whole Design of the Descent had been at an end From hence it is plain what Friendship the French King had for his dear Brother King Iames and what you may expect from this Man of Honour and good Nature when you have serv'd his Turn Come grow wise and honest and let us not divide under this or that Ministry under this or that Faction or Party but let us all unite against the common Enemy let us make the Publick Interest and the Support of the Government as it is established by Law our chief and only Aim and for all Projectors and Conspirators whether for a Commonwealth a French Tyranny or any other Tyranny I wish they were all hang'd on the same Tree the first for Fools the others for Miscreants and Villains And thus much and no more am I for being wedded to a Party Tory. I own you have told us a fair Tale but nothing is

proved nothing appears undeniable but your Venom and Enmity against the Church and her Friends Whig If your mean the French Story needs proving the Disgrace of Barillon when he return'd to Versaille upon the account of mistaking and misrepresenting the English Affairs is notorious But besides the Story proves it self more than a thousand Witnesses and for the rest I have related nothing but what every English-man is knowing of And as for what you charge me with in relation to the Church I see little Reason for it unless as St. Paul says you account me your Enemy because I tell you the Truth For my part I reverence the Church of England as much as any Man But I am not for sacrificing the Laws and Liberties of the Publick nay the very Nation it self to a Foreign Conquest for the sound of a Word I have a due Respect for the Priesthood too and am their Servant but never can submit to be their Slave I honour their Coat but cannot be content to strip my self of mine in respect to it A moderate Respect is decent and our Duty more I take to be Superstition at least if not Idolatry and to worship a Wooden Priest appears to me as bad as worshipping a Wooden God Tory. Now you are running into your usual Violence and Heat and let me tell you as a Friend it does you no good neither with the Church nor Court which latter hath a very low Opinion of those Men who express too much Warmth in what they say or do Whig And therefore their Affairs have succeeded accordingly Let the Nation be Judges Whether if Men of Warmth had been put in Office by our Ministers the Taxes would not have been more justly and carefully collected than they have been by those Luke-warm Managers they have employ'd who like the unjust Steward when the King 's Due was an hundred bid their Neighbours write down fifty Or do you think the Deputy-Lieutenants of Surry would have absconded last Year when they were ordered to raise the Militia upon King Iames's coming down to Normandy if they had been Men of Warmth to the Government Or that King Iames's Friends would dare to profess their Opinions and carry on their Designs so publickly That they would presume to insult the Government in every Coffee-house nay in the Mall and Whitehall it self That they would dare to threaten you to your Teeth as they do with Invasions Descents and Rebellions or would venture to correspond with France and go forward and backward every Day to King Iames nay raise Regiments of Horse and Foot under your Noses for a Rebellion if Men of Warmth and Zeal were in the Government But it is from hence that all these Insolencies take their Rise that the Enemies of the Government are come from hating it to despite it that its Friends are discouraged to appear for it and that those Officers and Souldiers who in King Charles's time would have broken the Heads of those whom they heard reflect upon the King's Person or Government will in this Reign hear both treated very odly not that they want an Affection to either but out of a fear to offend by shewing themselves Men of Warmth and Party-men those Characters being so abominable to our Court. Tory. You Whigs have been the occasion of all this too for you were so irreconcileable to some Ministers of State at the Beginning of the Revolution because they had made a few Slips in the last Reigns or perhaps because they had hang'd some of your Friends a Father or Brother or so that you forc'd them to take in some Persons which they themselves thought not very proper for this Government But if you will run a Man down he will support himself at any rate for Men are but Men And withal I believe they hop'd that a Place would buy any Party out of their Principles and that all who they bought into the Government would be obliged by that Means to be for the Government Whig This is very far fetch'd Mr. Tory tho it is not the first time I have heard it But as to the first part of this Paragraph the Matter of Fact is false The Whigs were willing to forget all past Miscarriages and be reconciled to any Minister that could be honest as I shew'd you before But these Gentlemen quickly convinc'd all the World that they were grown so old and stiff in their former Mischiefs that they were capable of no other ●end or Impression but what they had taken in the last Reigns And it was plain to every Man that had Eyes that they were no sooner in the Ministry but they fell into their old Schemes which no honest Man could come into and which I am afraid the Court hath not found the good Effects from which these Evil Counsellors promis'd It 's true by giving Places to all that were supple and complying you have brought in the Knaves of all Parties But since that which brings them into the Service of the Government is their own Interest and not that of the Government it will be reasonable for our Rulers to expect that the whole Design of such Men will be rather how to serve themselves of the Government than how to serve it To conclude Sir notwithstanding all you have said in Excuse of your Ministers and their Methods I cannot but remain in my first Opinion That the Men of easy Phlegme born on the Confines of Indifference as Sir Samuel Tuke in F ch-like Fustian describes our luke-warm Neutrals are not fit Men to be employ'd in our Government as the Case stands at present but will prove as destructive to it as downright Iacobites Tory. All this is taking things for granted which we deny and accusing Men of what you do not prove and if it were so you confess there are Knaves of your Party too Whig The Truth of what I say in relation to your Party is so notorious to all the World that it would be as impertinent to go about proving it as to prove there is a Sun even you your selves have confess'd and pretended to repent of your Principles and Practices in King Iames's time tho you are now return'd to your Vomit And as to what you say of our having Knaves amongst us I must confess it too true and am as much afflicted as you can be that any Whig should invade your undoubted and sole Right of being Knaves and selling and betraying their Fellow-Subjects But yet we hope we may claim a Distinction to be made betwixt our Party who not only profess but have maintain'd to the Death the Religion Rights and Liberties of their Country and yours who in King Charles's and beginning of King Iames's Reign gave up all these things and who though you are employ'd in and sworn to the present Government make publick Rejoicings at the Slaughter of our Armies and Destruction of our Fleets If the Whigs have the Misfortune of some Knaves professing themselves of

Condition as ours was at the time of the Revolution Were we not the Hopes of all our Allies and the Terror of our Enemies And is not the case alter'd with us I fear it is To be plain a Ministry from Wapping could not have made worse work on 't than yours have done Ministers who know not so much as what Money their Affairs will require but ask the Parliament too little and manage it so as to make it less That want Intelligence so much that Matters of the greatest Consequence have been publick in every Coffee-house three days before it comes to the Secretary's Office particularly the loss of our Merchants Fleet and beating our Army in Flanders As if as one said Secretaries like Cuckolds were to know their Dishonour and Misfortunes last Then the Return of our Fleets for want of Provisions laying out Money in false Expeditions and wanting it thereby in true Necessities imperfect Orders from whence proceeds imperfect Execution and besides they prove an Excuse to Officers even in the most fatal Miscarriages with a thousand more Mismanagements and Treacheries from the top to the bottom of the Ministry too tedious to relate here Tory. And do you think the Government would be better serv'd at this time by Novices and Strangers to Business Whig I have answer'd you that before I think it would be much better serv'd by ignorant Friends than understanding Enemies Tho I am far at the same time from granting you that Point for I am sure there are more Men of Sense and Capacity found amongst the Whigs than amongst the Tories and that Experience is not of such mighty Consequence as you would infer will appear if you will please to call to mind the Men employ'd in Publick Affairs by Cromwel Was ever Government better serv'd than his and yet he chose Men of the most private Condition and one would have thought most unqualified for Publick Business Taylors Draymen broken Shop-keepers raw Scholars and some few of the midling Gentry But being careful to choose Men principled against the Government of King Charles and zealous for the Interest of the Government then on foot they did Wonders supported their Friends and were aweful to their Enemies and this with all the Nobility Gentry and Clergy both Church of England and Presbyterian in perpetual Combinations and Conspiracies against them at home and a War in Ireland Scotland Holland and Spain too upon their Hands And you have an Instance of it in this Government in the Person of one of the Secretaries of Scotland who tho bred in a very private way hath shewed himself a most successful Statesman and of great Consequence to the Welfare of the King's Affairs in that Country and this meerly from his incorruptible Honesty Zeal and Integrity to the present Government without Experience or great Insight into Business Tory. I must grant there is something in what you say Union and Integrity will do great Matters But you Whigs cannot pretend to this for you are not two of you in the same Mind you have no Government no Discipline in your Party no Firmness to one another or to any Point Your great P. F turns Cadet and carries Arms under the General of the West-Saxons the two H s are Engineers under the late Lieutenant of the Ordnance and bomb any Bill which he hath once resolv'd to reduce to Ashes though it were for Recognition or any thing else that is most necessary to our Security Your Iack S. and Iack G. whenever they touch Penny will touch Pot too and drink all in the Bowl be it never so deep And besides this you are always laughing despising or railing at one another some of you are too wise some of you too witty and some of you too honest for the rest jealous and envious of one anothers Favour and Preferment every Man thinking himself fittest to be at the Head of Affairs and hating and reflecting upon those who are so and despising to be govern'd or directed by them And at the same time those who are at the Top disdaining to look down upon those below them tho they were the Steps by which they did ascend they grow stately to their Friends and unmindful of their Fortunes impatient of Addresses hard of Access huddling into little Cabals where they are wise and witty among themselves whilst we Tories on the contrary have but one Heart one Voice one Purse and one Interest excuse and justify one anothers Faults prefer the meanest Fool or Knave of our Party and in return the Underlings are every Man in a perfect Obedience to this Superior to vote rail write or talk according to Direction and not otherwise Whig I owe there is too much Truth in what you say and you speak Truth so seldom that we ought to allow it you when you do But I hope we have seen the Error of our Disunion and shall amend it for the future And however we may have had Personal Differences and likewise may have been too much divided and too obstinate in some Opinions yet still in all Times and under all Discouragements we have all agreed to the same end viz. The Publick Good of our Country and the Support of its Laws and Liberties and in this present Reign have been and are unanimous against King Iames and his Interest and have at all times with one Consent own'd his present Majesty Rightful and Lawful which I take to be the Shibboleth to distinguish those who are alone fit to serve this Government And till there be an Act of Recognition in Force I will be bold to say all the other Steps of our ablest and honestest Statesmen will be upon Boggy Ground nor can any Man be reasonably employ'd in any Office who hath not taken this Test for whoever thinks King William not Rightful must think King Iames is so and the same Conscience which leads them to believe him Rightful will incline them to assist that Right when they have opportunity but to return to the Point of your Charge we must confess likewise that we have not been so much under the Government of our Superiours as you are nor so industrious in supporting each others private and particular Interests But to the first I might answer That Fools and Beggars are more easily led by the Nose than Men of Sense and Estates And as to the latter I must put you in mind that the Societies of Ignatius and of Newgate are both of them as much united as you in universal Mischief for Roguery makes a stronger Glew and Cement than Vertue because there are more Men capable of the former than of the latter And tho it were to be wish'd that the Whigs were more friendly and had more Concern for the Support of one another in all their honest Pretences yet God forbid there should ever be such a Friendship and Partiality amongst them as to condemn and disgrace those who gain Victories because they are not of their Party and to support and defend those who have lost the Ships Trade and Honour of the Nation because they are their Creatures But on the other side where it is without offence to Justice and the Publick Interest all Unanimity and Friendship is to be admir'd prais'd and pray'd for and I hope you will find it amongst us for the future till it becomes the Subject of your Envy instead of being an Occasion of Reproach To put an end to this Argument 'T is plain with all your Friendships and Union and other Politicks you have brought the Nation and all its Allies to the lowest Condition both in Power and Reputation You have almost put it out of the Skill of any Conduct to recover us and whoever now takes the Administration of Affairs upon them will be apply'd to the Government like Pigeons to the Feet of dying Men. But however to those who are true Lovers of their Country no Time seems too late to attempt its Relief no Difficulty so great as to discourage them from endeavouring it and tho as the Case stands it is more than probable we may miscarry under the best Conduct yet it is undeniable we must miscarry under yours And so I take my Leave FINIS * Otherwise K. I. would have a fairer Pretence than I hope we shall ever allow him * The first Instance I have met of their Modesty * A College of Jesuits in that place * A fine Character for an English King * A new Distinction our Statesmen have lately found out