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A02913 Obiections: answered by way of dialogue wherein is proved by the Law of God: by the law of our land: and by his Maties many testimonies that no man ought to be persecuted for his religion, so he testifie his allegeance by the Oath, appointed by law. Helwys, Thomas, 1550?-1616?, attributed name. aut; Murton, John, attributed name. aut 1615 (1615) STC 13054; ESTC S117349 47,923 88

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meanes for the publishinge of his gospell which he that had all power had not nor hath comaunded Magistracie is a power of this world the kingdome power subjects and meanes of publishing the gospell are not of this world A. A Goodly thinge indeed that Men must go about the Countrie to preach C. In your estimation it is base and contemptible your pompe and pride will not beare this it is more ease for you to hunt after promotion till you come to the highest in getting to be cheife Bishop of Bishops within these dominions and then cometh your fall full lowe iff you repent not but the wisedome of God hath appointed the cheifest Officers of Christs Kingdome even the Appostles thus basely to go vp and downe to and fro to preach his Gospel yea that worthy Apostle Paul preached this gospel night day with many teares openly throughout every house Act. 20. I. But if this bee thus as for my owne parte I am fullie perswaded it is then I see the high commission cannot stand for as I take it it is onely for causes Ecclesiasticall C. So far as it is over Church matters it is most vnlawfull for the comission for judging and punishing of the transgressors of the lawes of Christs Church is given to Christ the Monarch thereof a parte whereof he hath left to his Disciples which is no worldly comission or power but onely the power of the Lord Iesus the vttermost of which comission is excomunication 1. Cor. 5. A. The high commission is from the King dare you once call it into question C. If I do take any authority from the kings Ma tie let me be judged worthy my desert but if I defend the authoritie of Christ Iesus over mens soules which apperteyneth to no mortall Man whatsoever then knowe you that whosoever would rob him of that honor which is not of this world he wil tread thē vnder foote Earthly authoritie belongeth to earthly Kings but spirituall authoritie belongeth to that one spirituall King who is King of Kings A. Well all your pleading vvill not serve your turne either you must come to Church or els go to prison C. I have shewed you by the law of Christ that your course is most wicked to compell any by persecution to performe any service to God as you pretend Now I desire also to shewe you that the Statute law of the land requireth onely civill obedience and his Ma ties writings mainteyning the Oath of alligience Testifieth the same The law of the lād requireth that whosoever cometh not to Church or receiveth not the Sacraments the Oath of allegeance is to bee tendered to them which that it may be manifest to 〈…〉 that not onely I but al that professe the faith with me are most willing to subscribe vnto it in faithfulnes and truth I have thought good to ●presse it The words of the Oath Anno 3. Iacobi Regis I. A. B. do truely sincerely acknowledg professe testifie declare in my conscience before God the World that our Soveraigne Lord king Iames is lawful King off this Realme of al other his Ma dominions Countries And that the Pope neither of himselfe nor by any other authoritie of the Chu or Sea off Rome or by any other meanes with any other hath any power or authoritie to depose the king or to dispose any off his Majest Kingdomes of Dominions or to authorize any forraigne Prince to invade or annoy him or his Countries or to discharge any off his subjects off their allegiance obedience to his Majest or to give licence or leave to any off thē to beare armes raise tumults or to offer any violence or hurt to this Ma Royal person State or Goverment or to any off his Ma subjects within his Ma Dominions Also I do sweare from my hart that notwithstanding any declaration or sentence off excommunication or depravation made or granted or to bee made or granted by the Pope or his Successors or by any authority derived or pretended to bee derived frō him or his Sea against the said king his heires or Successors or any absolution off the said subjects from their obedience I wil beare faith and true allegiance to his Majesty his heires and Successors and him and them wil defend to the vttermost off my power against all conspiraces and attempts whatsoever which shal bee made against his or their persons their Crowne and dignity by reason or cullor off any such sentence or declaration or otherwise and will do my best endeavour to disclose and make knowne vnto his Majesty his Heires and Successors all treasons and traiterous conspiraces which I shal knowe or heare of to be against him or any of them And I do further sweare that I do from my hart abhor detest and abivre as impious and hereticall this damnable doctrine and position that Princes which be excommunicated or deprived by the Pope may be deposed or murthered by their subjects or any other whatsoever And I do beleeve and in conscience am resolved that neither the Pope nor any person whatsoever hath power to absolve me of this Oath or any part thereoff which I acknowledg by good and full authority to be lawfully ministred vnto me do renounce all pardons and dispensations to the contrary And all these thinges I do plainely sincerely acknowledge and sweare according to these expresse words by me spoken according to the plaine comon sense and vnderstanding off the same words without any Aequivocation or mental evasion or secret reservatiō whatsoever And I do make this recognition acknowledgment hartily willingly truely vpon the true faith of a Christian So helpe me God A. This Oath was intended for the Papists not for you C. It is not so For his Ma tie at the last Session of Parli Anno 1609. saith thus Some doubts have bene conceived anent the vseing off the oath off allegeance that parte off the Act that ordeynes the takeing thereoff is thought so obscure that no man can tell vvho ought to bee pressed therevvith c. And therefore iff there bee any cruple touching the ministering thereof I would wish it now to be cleared c. And therevpon this statute was made Anno 7. Regni Regis Iacobi c. Chap. 6. rowards the latter end And if any person or persons whatsoever of above thage of 18 yeres do now stand or at any time hereafter shal stand be pretented indighted convicted for not coming to church or receiving the lords supper according to the lawes statutes of this realme before the ordinary or any other haveing power to take such presentments or indightmēts or iff the Minister pettie Constable or Churchwardēs or any two of them shall at any time hereafter complaine to any Iustice of peace reare adioyning to the place where any person complained of shall dwell the said justice shal find cause of suspition that then
Lvk. 20.25 Now if al the outward man bee Cesars and the inward man too so that he must be obeyed in his owne matters and in Gods matters also then tell vs what shall be given to God If you or any mā will give him more power or authority then I give him then you give him more then his Ma tie requireth as shal bee shewed A. Wee do not say that the King can compell the Soule but onely the outward Man C. If he cannot compel my soule he cannot compel me to worship God for God cannot bee worshipped without the soule Ioh. 4 24. jf you say he may compel me to offer vp a worship onely with my bodie for the spirit you confesse he cannot compell to whome is that worship not to God Then consider you who they worship that are thus compelled say you by the King Let it well be here observed that you make the King a comaunder of such worship as is not to God contrary to his Ma ties owne mynd manifest in his writings But this you do not to advance Gods glory nor the kings honor but your owne cursed kingdome of darknes which you hold by flattery ād falshood For if this cōpelled worship which is not to God were takē away then your kingdome would fal to hel frō whēce it came and therefore all Men map here see it is supported onely by wickednes A. I confesse the Kings authority is earthly but he is head over the Church vnder Christ C. God forbid that any mortall Man should so equallize himself with Christ who allone is Head of his church as the Husband is of the VVife Ephe. 5 23. And hath left no o●e-gecent in that his office for he is never absent frō his Church Mat. 18.20 and 28.20 All that any mortal Mā can be is to be a subject of his Kingdome for their is but one Lord. 1. Cor. 12.5 one law-giver Iam. 3.12 And that this is so his Ma tie confirmeth by his owne testimony in his Apologie for the oath of allegeance Pag. 46.47 But as I wel allowe of the Hyrarchie of the church for distjuctiō of orders for so I vnderstand it so I vtterly deny that there is any earthly Monarch thereof whose word must bee a law and who cannot err in his sentence by an infallibility of spirit● because earthly kingdomes must have earthly Monarchs it doth not followe that the church must have a visible Monarch too For the VVorld hath not one earthly temporall Monarch Christ is his Churches Monarch the Holy ghost his deputie The Kings of the gentiles reigne over them but ye shall not be so Luk. 22.25 Christ did not promisse before his assention to leave Peter with them to direct instruct them in all thinges but he promissed to send the Holy ghost vnto them for that end These are his highnes owne words whereby it evidently appeareth his Ma tie challengeth no supremacie over the Church but laboreth to overthrowe that abhominable exaltacion of that Man of sin in the Romish professiō for Christ hath given no supremacie in or over his Church to any mortall man but expresly commaunded the contrary as the place of Luk mencioned by his Ma tie plainely declareth His highnes is supreame head and gouvernor over all his subjects bodies and goods within his dominions and therein I detest and abhorr all forraigne powers whatsoever But now for the thinge in controversie betwixt you and me of compelling Men by persecutions to do service to God as is pretended wherein they have not faith it shal be manifest not to be of God in that Christ Iesus himself the onely Lord and law-giver to the soule neither had any such power and authority neither taught any such thinge to his Disciples but the contrary First Mat. 28.18.19 All power is given me in Heaven in earth Go therefore teach all Nations and 2. Cor. 10.4 The VVeapons of our war fare are not carnall but mighty through God to cast downe Holds c. Here wee see Christ hath no Worldly power nor Worldly Weapons 2ly He practised and taught the contrary VVhen the Samaritanes would not receive him goeing to Ierusalem Luk. 9. his disciples would have had fire come downe from heaven devoured them Christ rebuked them said ye knowe not of what spirit ye are the Son off man is not come to destroy mens lives but to save them And the Appostle by the Spirit of Christ 2. Tim. 2.24 Comaundeth the servants off the lord not to strive but to bee gentle towards all men apt to teach suffering the evil men patiently instructing them vvith meeknes that are contrary mynded proveing if God at any time vvil give them repentance that they may knowe the truth come to amendment out of the Devils snare c. These Scriptures need no explanation for this most evident truth A. VVell yet notvvithstanding all this it is manifest in the Scriptures by the example of Thappostle Peter smiting Ananias and Saphira to death Act. 5. of Th-appostle Paul striking Flymas the socerer blind Act. 13 11. And also by delivering Hemineus Alexander vnto Sathan for the destruction of the Flesh that punishment vpon the body may bee vsed the flesh destroyed For if it were lawful for them to smite to death the like though by extraordinary meanes then it must be lawful for vs by ordinary meanes since extraordinary meanes now failed If you say it be not Lawfull for vs then you must say it was not Lawfull for them that vvere to accuse them of laying a false foundation vvhich none fearing God wil affirme C. I dare not once admit of such a thought as to disallowe the truth off that foundation which th-●oposties as skilfull maister builders have said But for your argument of Peters extraordinary smiting of Ananias and Saphira he neither laid hand vpon them nor threatned them by word onely declared what should be san them from God and therefore serveth no thing to your purpose also that of Paul to Elimas he laid no hands vpon him but onely declared the Lords hand vpon him and the judgment that should followe If you can so pronounce and it so come to passe vpon any do it and then it may bee you may bee accounted maister builders and layers of a new foundation or another gospell And for Th-appostle Paul his delivering Hymeneus and Alexander vnto Sathan 1. Tim. 1.20 It was not by any temporall sword or power but even by the power of our Lord Iesus Christ in his name by the sword of the Spirit 1. Cor. 5.4 And this was not extraordinary but ordinarye to continue in all churches to the end and not to destroy the outward Man as you teach and practice but to destroy those iustfull affections which dwell in the flesh that so the flesh being mortified the Spirit may bee quickned and the Soule saved in the day of the Lord Iesus And whereas you say that
why are not subjects also freed from subjection and allegeance to their Princes being excomunicate if excomunication be Christs Lawe to all alike that wil be saved without respect off persons And also is not that lawe off Christ herein to be observed That whatsoever ye would men should do to you even so do you to them Mat. 7.12 And therefore as Princes would that all their subjects should bee faithfull and obedient vnto thē so ought Princes to be just and equall to all their subjects in mainteyning them in every just and equall cause betwene man and man For for his cause not for Religion saith Thappostle the saints at Rome paied their tribute to Cesar their heathē Prince who was against them in Religion Shall they not escape damnatiō for this accursed doctrine and practice ād thinke you you shall thou that judgest another judgest them not thy self By this it may appeare as also by exceeding many other doctrines ād practices how neere you are to that bloody spirituall power what pretences to the contrary soever you make A. It vvere a lamentable thinge if that bloodie Religion should bee practiced againe in this Nation C. I acknowledg it a bloodie Religion but God hath cast down the power thereof in this kingdome blessed be his name but I would you could see your owne cruell bloodie religion but that God of his mercy hath restrained it by the kings Ma tie who thirsteth not after blood how many onely for seeking reformation in religion hath bene put to death by your power in the daies of Q. Eliz ād how many both then ād since have bene cōsumed to death in prisons y●a since that cruel spiritual power hath bene ser ●p that not hanging burning exile imprisonments and al manner of contempt bene vsed and al for religion although some for grevious errors ād yet you see not this to be a bloodie religion further you cry out of their bloodie cruelty the reason is because you wil not bee of their religion and when you have done are most blodie cruell so far as is in your power because wee and al men will not bee of your religion A. If men hold errors vvill not obey the truth do they not sin against God deserve punishment C. Yes such deserve punishment but God hath apointed their punishment and the time thereof Their punishment Rom. 2.8.9 To them that are contentious disobey the truth obey vnrighteousnes shal be indignation wrath tribulatiō anguish shal be vpon the soule of every one that doth evil Mark 16.16 He that will not beleeve shal be damned 2. Thes 1.8 In flaming fire rendring vēgeance vnto them that knowe no God obey not the gospell of our Lord Iesus Christ which shall bee punished with everlasting perdition from the presence of the Lord the glorie of his power The time thereof the last place recited vers 7. When the Lord Iesus shal shewe himself from heaven with his mightie Angels and Rom. 2.5 The day of wrath and vers 16 At that day when God shall judg the secrets of men by Iesus Christ and Mat. ●3 40.41 At the end of this VVorld the sonne of man shall send furth his Angels they shall gather out of his Kingdome al thinges that offend them that doe iniquitie shall cast them into a furnace of Fire c. Here is shewed the punisher the punishment and the time thereoff This punisher hath comaunded you to wait for their repentance by his owne example which is in his hands to give them and not to cut them of and send them to hell as you teach and practice which is contrary to God who is patient towards mockers which walke after ther lusts 2. Pet. 3. Because he would have no mā to perish but would that all men whatsoever should come to repentance but you contrary to him vse all the meanes you can to cut Men of that they might perish in that you seke to destroy their bodies whilst they remaine in their errors A. I confesse that God commaundeth Mat. 13 That the good bad must grovv together vnto the end of the VVorld but that is in the Church C. Wel if that be the true exposition I pray you why do you then excomunicate any out off your Churche contrary to your owne acknowledg And here let all Men take notice that by this exposition you overthrowe your owne excomunication quite and accuse Christ for giveing a rule Mat. 18. and Th-appostle Paul and the church of Corinth for practizing that rule ● Cor 5. In cas●ing out of the Church For you say all must growe together to the end in the Church But the exposition of the Law-giver himselff is against you that the ●eild is the world vers 38. Yet in that you confesse that the wicked ād the Godly must be l●t alone in the Church vnto the end much more in the world vnto the end For if the wicked pollute not the Church sure it is they pollute not the world This then you are comaunded vnto vers 29.30 Nay gather them not let them growe together vnto the end of the world A. Let them come to Church they shall grovve together vnto the end C. Indeed I thinke so hereby you manifest you regard not how wicked and vngodlie men be so they come to your Church you wil not destroy thē though they remaine in their abhominable lusts but if they will not come to your Chur let thē be wheate or tares you wil gather thē and as much as in you is send them to bur●●n● Herein al mē may see as I said before that you seeke your owne glorie and obedience not gods ād so exalt your selves above God 2. thes 2 I. Wel I blesse God I see this as clearly as the sunne shyning in his brightnes that it is to feight against God to compel any contrarie to their consciences to performe any service vnto him in that there are so many places of Scripture comaunding the contrary C The whole new Testament throughout in all the doctrines and practices of Christ ād his disciples teach no such thinge as cōpelling men by persecutions ād afflictions to obey the go pel but the direct cōtrary viz to suffer at the hāds of the wicked whē they were persecuted for righteousnes sake to suffer it when the vnbeleevers ād wicked curse them to blesse pray for their repentance that God would forgive them never lay these sinnes to their charge as our Saviour Luk. 23 34. Stephen Act. 7.60 and the rest did And for a conclusiō of this point that your faith may bee full herein consider that wee are to wait for the Iewes conversion and not to destroy thē I. It is true that might give all men satisfaction in these thinges C. Oh yes if Men had any regard of God or his word they would never deale more in this thinge the lord wee see Rō 11. hath promised that