A CONFERENCE Between two Souldiers Meeting on the Roade the one being of the Army in ENGLAND The other of the Army in SCOTLAND As the one was comming from London the other from Edinbrough The first Part. November 1659. A Conference between two Souldiers Meeting on the Roade the one being of the Army in England the other of the Army in Scotland England WEll met fellow-souldier whence doe you come Scotland I come from Scotland Engl. What News from thence we heare you are beginning a new Warr. Scotl. No no what we doe is in pursuance of our good Old Cause to stand up for the Parliament which we heare you have forceably interrupted and turned out Engl. I pray you let us step aside and a little reason together What is that good Old Cause so much spoken of Were you a Souldier at the first beginning of the warr and can remember what was then Declared as the cause of our taking up Armes Scotl. Yes and then I went out for the preservation and defence of the true Protestant Religion the Kings Person the Priviledges of Parliament and the Laws and Liberties of the subject Engl. Let us passe by that of the Protestant Religion which was soon after left out of our Commissions for we needed not fight for a Religion but that we might enjoy Liberty to exercise our Religion How did you pursue the Cause Did you who are now the Army in Scotland consent to the taking away the Life of the King whom you were to defend who by the Laws of the Land was our Chief Ruler Scotl. Yes for when upon better information we found That Kings were made for the people and not the people for Kings That men are freeborn into the World and not any mans slaves that no man ought to have a Native and Hereditary Right over others But that the power under God is originally in the people and to be derived from thence and that all trusts are conditionall We beleeved that the King was as well bound to defend his people as his people were to be subject to him and that if he fayled of the one they were discharged of the other els the King might destroy them at his pleasure and finding that the King had betrayed his trust and endeavoured the ruine of his people we took our selves not onely bound to defend our selves against him but also to call him to an accompt as guilty of the highest crymes for destroying the end of his trust making his power an advantage to our ruine Engl. Then you were of our mind That the safety of the People is the supreme Law and therefore you consented to take away the King What did you for the Priviledges of Parliament Doe you not remember That there was an Act of Parliament to which the King consented as well as both Houses That the Parliament nor either House should not be dissolved without their own consents or an Act of Parliament to be passed for that purpose Did you not also consent to the taking away of the House of Lords which was one of the Houses of Parliament Scotl. When we found that the House of Lords as well as the King exercised an Authority by Prerogative over the people without their consent and deputation it was seen fit to lay them aside also as inconsistent with the peoples Liberties Engl. Was not this the highest breach of Parliament Priviledges not onely to interrupt but wholly to dissolve one of the Houses of Parliament and that not for one Session onely but for ever And I pray you when Kings and Lords were taken away which were two essentiall parts of the Parliament was not the Parliament then dissolved he being dead by whose Writs they were called which gave them the being of a Parliament and could live no longer then himselfe Scotl. No for the House of Commons could not be dissolved without their own consent and an Act to be passed for that purpose Engl. How could they be a Parliament which could doe no Act of a Parliament Or how could they be dissolved by an Act when no act of Parliament could be passed for it they had taken away the Lords who were to advise and the King who was to consent Scotl. It s very true and therefore they presently changed the Government and Declared themselves to be a Parliament without King or House of Lords Engl Did they not thereby dissolve themselves and cast off their former power And then from whom did they derive their new Authority the People onely chose them to goe up and to consider and advise of the great things of the Nation with the King and Lords and not to take all the power to themselves both the Legislative and Executive to doe what they list and as long as they pleased making the former Act of Parliament which had no such intention a colour for it But since you are so much for the House of Commons whether I pray did you consent to the turning out so many Members at severall times Scotl. Yes for we found that the honest party of the House who were for carrying on the good Old Cause were over-voted by a Major Party and we were forced to it or els our Cause had been lost Engl. And were not those most high breaches of the Priviledges of that House And how could the remaining party be called a free Parliament The People chose the whole Number and gave them power and after you had turned out whom you pleased should the People be bound by the rest were they the Peoples or not rather your Parliament But doe ye remember when those we called the honest Party came from the House to the Army and brought their Speaker with them and left the rest who over-voted them Did not you own the lesser Party and forthwith goe to London and turn out the other I pray by what Law was it done and whether if either party could be called a Parliament the lesser or the greater And whether did you not in 1653. consent to or afterward approve the turning out the remainder of the whole House Scotl. I must confesse we did so and were still forced to it for carrying on that Cause which we were called unto and tooke our selves bound in Conscience to prosecute for the defence of the Peoples Liberties Engl. Well It seems you grant that for the Liberty of the People you consented in stead of defending to destroy the Kings Person in stead of preserving Parliament Priviledges wholly to take away the House of Lords and over and over to interrupt and turn out the Members of the lower House and at last to end the sitting of the whole And I pray you Have not divers Elections been since made by the People which by an Act made by the King Lords and Commons they had power to doe make voyd and supercede all former Authority derived from them if any was in being Scotl. I am not fit to judge of these things But I
chearfully to prosecute those ends came and took up the Sword managed the War with the advice of their Representative Body not as servants to the Parliament but as those that entrusted them that were bound to defend them while they pursued the ends of their preservation and safety Not as Servants or Mercenary men for Wages for the Parliament neither had it nor did give it but out of the peoples purses but as Free-men of England for their own liberties unto whom God hath given the Victory who now stand not bound in Duty and Conscience to any assembly of men no more then formerly to the King to be commanded to doe their wills But as Members of the English Nation to pursue the just ends of their undertaking for recovery and preservation of their liberties as well against any Parliament that shall violate their Rights as against King and Lords and no more to yeild themselves slaves to any new Power or Government then they did to the old Scotl. I am not willing to say any thing against former proceedings because we had our hands therein as well as you but this both you and we may pleade for our selves necessity forced us to it But we cannot see any necessity for this rash undertaking Engl. Doe you not remember how often the Army hath Promised Covenanted Remonstrated and Ingaged yea over and over again to endeavour a through Reformation and such a setled provision and security for preservation of the Rights and Liberties of the people as Men and as Christians as should not be liable to future violation If they should fayle of this were they not most perfidious unto God and treacherous to the people And when they found the Parliament neglecting their duty and on the contrary beginning to lay aside the chiefest worthies of the Army who had hearts most enlarged and integrity most unspotted and were every way best fitted not onely for the conduct of the Army but for carrying on the good ends of the Warr should the Souldier fit still and hold their peace and suffer such to be set over them of whom they had little or no experience whose Principles were known inconsistent with Christian Freedom whose interest or abilities were not able to withstand the common Enemy but on the contrary gave them new encouragement and fresh hopes Scotl. We cannot easily beleeve these things that the Parliament could have any such designes for they have still carryed on the Work with us Engl. Doe you not remember after the King was delivered into our hands what tampering was made what endeavours used for patching up a peace with him and how long was it and with what difficulty obtained to have Votes passed for no more Addresses Was not the Army forced to Petition from all places and quarters to have Him and other Delinquents brought to Justice when they found by his seclusion from all evill Councellors on whom till then they were still desirous to lay the blame that he was chiefly guilty And afterwards how did they still neglect to pursue their duty the good ends of the Warr but as they were even constrained to it How often were we forced to accuse and impeach and turn out their malignant tempers purge them over and over and at last turn out the whole I pray you look back and tell us what good Act did they to which they were not forced How often has the Army and other good people Petitioned them and how often weâ—â— they by them checked in stead of thanked Doe but consider how long time they had between 1648. that they changed the Government and 1653. that they were dissolved and how few Acts they made that are pursuant to the change of Government and of continuing good to the people Which of our burthens are eased which of our grievances redressed does not the whole Land groan under heavy pressures which in a small part of that time might have been eased Scotl. We are of the same mind with you that they were bad enough in time past But we hope that just rebuke and shame which they have so long layn under has made them sensible of former miscarriages and that they would now double their diligence and improve their time to the best advantage Engl. Our hope of that was a great inducement to us to call them together But we soon found our mistake for within a very few weeks they began to fall into sidings and parties and the worser got the upper hand Their time for neer six Moneths they passed away almost wholly in setling the Power of the Nation both Military and Civill in such hands as they conceived would be true to them and their absolute authority with such artifice that not any man might speak a word in dislike of their proceedings but they could turn him out with a word so that what they had a mind to doe the people might take and what they disliked neither the Army nor any others might offer nor aske Scotl. We conceive that the Military Power ought to be subject to the Civill and this was but to bring the Sword into the peoples own hands Engl. We know not why the Civill power ought to be called the peoples hands more then the Military we know where the people have found their greatest strength and we hope the Army is as much Civill as the Magistrate and we confesse the ends of our war being answered and secured both Swords belong to the people But had the Body of the People of England the Sword in their own hands you as well as we know how soon they would destroy both you and us and themselves And for this Assembly neither to settle a Government with sufficient caution and security for the enjoyment of our Liberties our dear bought purchase nor to Declare at what they aymed in order thereunto but rashly to subject all honest men and honest interest of the Nation to the wisedom will and pleasure of that House and those that should succeed them argues either a very bad designe or gross inadvertency not to be readily suffâ—red and had we yeilded to that prevayling party we may well suppose the honest interest of the Nation had been layd very low in a short time Scotl. But we heare the chiefe difference began about Generall Officers and we are of the same mind with the Parliament that there are enough Generall Officers for we have found how dangerous it is to have men in such great power they may make themselves Kings or Protectors or what they please Engl. If the Parliament was against Generall Officers why did they in one day make seven the Army desired but three or foure to render their Conduct more intire and regular and with such subordinations as became the severall Trusts having found by dear bought experience That there is no safety but in order and discipline And they were such persons as the Army knew and had tryed and durst follow in the greatest hazards such
rather esteemed the great Bulwarks of the peoples Freedomes which neither Kings nor Parliaments could alter And therefore upon this new Conquest over Monarchy we beleeve it is the duty of those to whom God hath given the Victory to see such Fundamentall Constitutions setled as are consonant to the Law of God and Principles of Justice and Righteousnesse and that just Freedom both as to the inward and outward man which belongs to every man as a Member of the Creation of God the great work that God hath been doing amongst us and will carry on and bring to passe in the whole Earth and to see the same so fortified and secured with provision against all kinds of violation that the people may be no more put to make a new purchase of it Scotl. Though you should come to a settlement that may have much good in it I cannot see how you can secure it the next Parliament will clayme an absolute power and will goe neer to alter it if it be but even to shew their Authority Engl. If such a spirit shall be in the Parliament as to alter good things setled How much further off would they be to lay such a Foundation and therefore such expedients must be used as will prevent that mischief and yet leave the Parliament Free which must be provided for in the Forme of Government Scotl. I pray what Government doe you intend to set up and seeing you clayme the right of Forming a Government what must others expect from you Engl. We that is to say the Army onely doe not clayme any such right But we that is to say the Body of the good people adhearents to this Cause in all the severall Nations who continue still faithfull thereunto whereof we are a part and in our Brethrens stead left to defend both them and our selves in prosecution of the work till it be finished doe make this clayme not that we desire to have the Government in our hands not that we desire the Sword should Rule not that we desire to abridge any other man of his Liberty or that he should be a slave much lesse a subject to us But we being called together in defence of those just rights in common which belong to us and every man in particular and having obtained successe to our just Cause We cannot we dare not lest not onely the ruine of our selves but also of our posterities and not onely so but the whole Nations whom God hath given it into our powers to preserve as well as our selves should be layd to our charge part a sunder nor suffer our selves to be divided till our Liberties and the Liberties of all men be secured Scotl. But still you will be Judges your selves Engl Our own innocency and integrity is that which justifies us in the fight of God from whom we have our strength who hath judged for us And it is not reasonable that we should stand at the Judgement Seat of our Enemies nor of those who have not known our Cause nor put their hands to carry it on Had all the people of England with one consent taken part with us there had been no such difference as to persons or interests But you know the greater part of the Nation were against us and if they might be Judges you as well as we understand what would be the issue though in our principles their Liberties as well as our own will be secured Scotl. I pray you tell me what those Principles are Engl. I may say in short all our Principles are summed up in one founded upon that just and righteous Rule wherein is fulfilled the whole Law and the Prophets As you would have men doe unto you even so doe ye unto them which includes in it the perfect Freedom of Conscience of Person and of Estate and which we onely waite and long to see established Scotl. If that be your Principle I hope we shall never differ for we doe with as much earnestnesse as your selves long to see such a Government and Laws setled as stand upon that Foundation And if we shall confesse that the late Assembly was no Parliament but that their authority is perfecty determined that you had good Reason and Right to end their sitting and ought to proceed to pursue the ends of the great cause of just Liberty It will not at all prejudice the rights of the people and I beleeve that generally the people would be as little satisfied as your selves to have that Assembly rule over them But yet these things seem strange and contrary to our ancient Laws and Government and now we know not where nor how to come to a settlement Engl. If you look upon the Parliament and their proceedings or on the Army and theirs you will find that in our whole course there was seldome any such agreement which the Rule of former Laws and Constitutions of Government that the actions of either could be clearly and fully justified thereby any longer then the Law of Successe and Conquest did uphold them and the inward warrant of Justice and Righteousnesse did encourage them in such their actings Neither could it be otherwise those Laws that were made for the support of our former Government being as contrary to Principles of just Freedom as the Governours or Government it selfe Scotl. But I hope you will not thence inferr that therefore you may breake and make voyd all other our good Laws at your pleasure Engl. All Laws that are just and equall will be found to spring from the Root of all power the Law of God which is the Foundation of all Laws that are just and as they are consonant thereunto they will agree with that Principle which we own and hold forth and desire to be found in And we shall be sorry if any shall accuse us of the violation of any such Laws we hope they cannot Scotl. Truely for our parts many of us we can say it we would not fight in a personall quarrell not for the best of Persons neither for Members of a Parliament nor for the Officers of the Army but for the good Cause of justice freedome and Righteousnesse in which we have been engaged that onely will God blesse who respects no mans Person that worke onely will he carry on and therein I am convinced by your Discouse is the power and true Authority and all who are found standing in it will need no other warrant And now Fellow-souldier I must take my leave being glad of this happy Meeting and shall change my purpose of going any further Southward and shall returne immediately to my Brethren in Scotland who I hope will be much satisfied to heare of these things Onely I would faine have spoken a little with you about the Government you intend to settle But in a few dayes if you will promise to meet me I hope to returne and have a better opportunity Till then I bid you Farewell And so shaking Hands they parted The end of the first Part.