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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
end_n	july_n	june_n	may_n	1,692	5	11.9219	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63214	The tryals and condemnation of Thomas White alias Whitebread, provincial of the Jesuits in England, William Harcourt, pretended rector of ]ondon, John Fenwick,procurator for the Jesuits in England, John Gavan alias Gawen, and Anthony Turner, all Jesuits and priests; for high treason: in conspiring the death of the King, the subversion of the government, and Protestant religion. At the Sessions in the Old-Bailey for London and Middlesex, on Friday and Saturday, being the 13th and 14th of June, 1679. Published by authority.	Whitbread, Thomas, 1618-1679, defendant.; Barrow, William, 1610-1679, defendant.; Caldwell, John, 1628-1679, defendant.; Gawen, John, 1640-1679, defendant.; Turner, Anthony, 1628 or 9-1679, defendant.; Corker, James Maurus, 1636-1715, defendant.	1679 (1679)	Wing T2248; ESTC R219768	109,846	92

afterwards to it if you were not there then Lord Chief Just You say you were then in Staffordshire and might not you set your hand afterwards when you came to Town I will tell you Mr. Gaven in April they met and had such a Resolution you were then in Staffordshire might not you come to Town in July following and set your hand to what was agreed in April before And you cannot contradict him but by shewing that all June and July you were not here For if you prove your self never so much to have been at Wolverhampton in April that will not serve the turn You seem to make a very great defence of this All that Mr. Oates says is that the 24 th of April he was present where there was a Consult had about the death of the King and divers persons set their hands to the Resolve Mr. Gaven afterwards was in Town and then says he I saw his hand set to the Consult I will not charge my memory to say he was present but I will tell you why I believe it was his Hand because I saw him draw a Bill of Exchange and that was just like the same Hand Gaven Aye but my Lord I was not here in April Lord Chief Just But this proves in effect that you set your hand to the thing afterwards And now if you should prove your self never so plainly not to have been there in April you do not come to the thing it is still a non liquet whether you were here in July or no. And Mr. Oates does not positively charge you as to April Well call your Witnesses and prove what you will Catherine Winford was called and appeared Gaven I desire you would be pleased to ask her where I was the 23 th of July Winford My Lord I am very sure he was a Sojourner at our House the most part of the Summer in June and July both In July the 23 th he went away from my House and took another Lodging more convenient for that which he had to do Lord Chief Just Where in what Town was this Winford At Wolverhampton in Staffordshire Lord Ch. Just was he never away from you all that time Winford No and then he went to another Lodging in the Town Lord Ch. Just Do you say that he sojourned with you all June July till the 23 th Winford He sojourned with me longer but I only name those months because they are onely in question L. C. J. Where did he go when he went from you Winford He took another lodging in the Town L. C. J. And did you see him then Winford I saw him then every day or every other day L. C. J. Are you a Roman Catholick Winford Yes my Lord I am so L. C. J. Call another Gaven Call Mary Poole Who stood up L. C. J. Do you know Mr. Gaven Poole Yes my Lord. L. C J. How long have you know him Poole This six or seven years L. C. J. Pray do you know where he was this time Twelvemonth Poole He was at Mrs. Winfords House at Wolverhampton L. C. J How do you know Poole I was a Servant there in the House Lord Ch. J. And where was he in April Poole He was at my Mistresses House L. C. J. And where was he in May Poole my Lord I believe he was there L. C. J. And why do you believe he was there Poole Because I do not remember his going forth till the latter end of July and he was there in June too L. C J. You answer readily as to June and July why did you stick at the month of May more than the other Months for you know when I asked you where he was in April then you said he was at home why do you doubt whether he was there in May or no pray tell us why it is not as certain to you that he was not there in May as that he was there in June why do you doubt more of it Poole I do not doubt but that he was there Lord C. J. But why did you not answer then as readily to the one as to the other Poole My Lord any one may mistake L. C. J. This you were not prepared for and it was a question you did not come ready to answer are you a Roman-Catholick Poole Yes my Lord. Here the people laugh'd L. C. J Look you you must know there is no other use to be made of it but onely to shew that Protestants are so averse to Popery in England that they will not endure a Roman-Catholick in England But they are good Evidence and competent Witnesses I must tell you that and no man must deny it for though you deny Heaven to us yet we will not deny Heaven to you nor Witnesses though you say Heriticks will be damn'd yet we hope they will never while they do not follow your practises At which the people gave a great shout L. C. J. You must pardon the peoples shouting for you have turned their hearts so that there is no living for a Papist in England I will maintain it And then the people shouted again You shall have all the Iustice that can be and all the favour the Law will allow Gaven If there be but a place for us in Heaven I am contented My Lord I desire you will be pleased to ask this Mrs. K●●th Winford whether she does not remember that I came from my Lord Aston's the Monday before L. C. J. Mrs. Winford what say you do you remember any passages about the time he left your house Winford My Lord I did not know directly and positively what I should come to answer and therefore I cannot recollect my self L. C. J. Do you know that he went to any Gentlemans house some time before he left your house Winford Yes my Lord he went often abroad L. C. J. To whose Winford To my Lord Astons L. C. J. How long before Winford I cannot tell L. C. J. How long did he stay at my Lord's did he ever stay five or six days Winford I cannot tell L. C. J. My meaning is this in plain English to ask you plainly and you ought in Conscience to speak the truth as much as if you were upon your Oath for you are in the presence of God who will judge you as severely for a falshood in this Case as in the other I would ask you whether he could not possibly be absent and make a step to London and you be never the wiser Windford My Lord I am as confident as I can be of any thing in the world of the contrary L. C. J. Might not he be in London the latter end of June or July and you not know it when he pretended to go to my Lord Aston's Winford I do not know but I am very confident he did not L C. J. But was he absent long enough to have done it can you charge your memory with that Winford It was possible it might be so

but he could not be so for he entred himself into the Sodality the 25 th of March and not long after his admission he was put to read every Sunday morning at 6 a Clock And after that he began once to read he never was absent from that time till the time he went away Lord Ch. Just Why did he read when he was sick Billing He was not sick upon the Sunday Lord Ch. Just You say he was sick in April Billing Yes my Lord. Lord Ch. Just But was he not sick of a Sunday in April Billing He was only a little indisposed and frequented the infirmary in the day time for a matter of 3 or 4 dayes Lord Ch. Just Did he read at the time he was sick in the infirmary Billing He was not sick an whole week Lord Ch Just Did it reach to a Sunday Billing No my Lord that I remember Lord Ch. J. How long did he continue there Billing Til towards the latter end of June Lord Ch. Just Did you see him once in 2 or 3 days Billing Yes my Lord I did constantly And upon the second of May ●●ve● particularly remember looking out into the Garden I saw Mr. Blunt walking in the Garden and Mr. Oates with him And observing him to be very intimately familiar with him I a●ked some that were with me Does this Sampson for he went by that name in the Colledge says I does Sampson know Dick Blunt no said they and we wondered at his confidence having no greater acquaintance I saw him that day walking in the Garden with that Blunt L. C. J. That was the second of May Billing Yes my Lord. L. C. J And he was constantly in this Gentlemans company that day Billing Yes and moreover the same day this Sampson was walking with one John Rushton in the Garden and seeing me walk alone Thomas says he have you never a companion No Sampson said I well said he prithe come to us So I was with him walking a little while and then this Blunt and one Henry Howard were playing one with another throwing stones at one anothers Shins At which he was displeased and said ●f they would not be quiet he would go tell the Rector Howard was hasty and spoke angerly to him and said if he would not be quiet he would beat him But Mr. Oates persisting and daring of him says h● what do you dare me and come up to him and throws up Mr. Oates his heels With that mr Oates lookt very fre●fully upon him and withdrew himself into the Infirmary as we thought to speak to the Rector And by these particulars and such as these I remember to have seen him every day one day with another or every other day at St. Omers till he went away which was in June Then stood up another one Townely L C. J. Come mr Townely do you know mr Oates Tow. Yes my Lord L. C. J. When came you from St Omers Townely I came a week before Easter Lord Ch. Just When saw you this same Mr. Oates at St. Omers Townley I saw him in June Lord Ch. Just When else Townley In May. Lord Ch. Just When else Townley In April Lord Ch. Just Was he there in all April all May and all June Townley No not all June He went away as I take it about the 10 th of June Lord Ch. Just Pray how often did you see him Did you see him every day Townley I conversed with him every day He was partly a Scholar and partly a Father and sat at a Table by himself He went to School as a Scholar 'T is true indeed he did not learn as the rest of the Boys did but he went to School at the Boys did and was at a Table from the Fathers as the Boys were but apart and alone Lord Ch. Just But how often did you see him was it every other day Townley Yes I believe I did Lord Ch. Just What for all April and all May Townley Yes Lord. Ch. Just How came you to take such particular notice of it that you can say you saw him every other day Town●ley If I constantly dine with one or if he be at a single Table alone he cannot be absent but I must take notice of it and he was neither as a Father nor as a Scholar but betwixt both and therefore the more to be taken notice of Lord Ch Just This then you say He siting by himself and being distinct from all ●he others you might more easily observe his absence than any others This is that you say Townley Yes my Lord. Lord Ch. Just You say well Call another Then stood up one Fall Lord Ch. Just When came you from St. Omers Fall about Two months agoe Lord Ch. Just When did you see Mr. Oates Fall I saw him when I was in my Syntax and now I am in Poetry L. C. J. What moneth did you see him in Fall When he came first as I rember it was at Christmas L. C. J. Christmas last Fall No it was Christmas was twelth month Christmas 1677. L. C. J. How long did you see him there Fall I saw him there from that time till June only when he was at Watton L. C. J Was he never sick Fall I saw him in the Infirmary my self L. C. J. How can you tell when a man is sick Fall I do not pretend to do that but he was in the Infirmary as a sick man L. C. J. How came you to take particular notice of it Fall I took no particular notice but I have recollected my memory L. C. J. Upon what occasion Fall Upon this occasion L. C. J. How often did you see him Fall I saw him every day L. C. J. How long have you been in the Convent Fall My Lord I have been there two years and an half Then stood up John Hall L. C. J When came you from St. Omers Hall in July my Lord. L. C. J How long have you been there Hall seven years and upwards L. C. J. How long is it since you came from thence Hall In July in the year 1678. L C. J. And did you see M● Oates there then Hall No my Lord L. C.J When did you see him there then Hall I saw him there in April May June L. C.J. What all June Hall No my Lord. L. C. J. How long in June Hall He went away about the Twenty third of June L. C J. How came you to take such particular notice Mr. Oates was there all this while Hall I was a servant there L. C. J. In what way Hall A Resectorian a Butler L. C. J Did you keep Books of what meat and drink they had Hall No I laid their Table drew their Beer and laid the Bread L. C. J. And did you serve Mr. Oates with bread and Beer every day Hall Yes my Lord most Dayes L. C. J. Did you serve the Infirmary Hall No my Lord. L. C. J. But you say you served him every day Hall Yes

upon me and I upon him and said he I am certain it was the man Lord Chief Just What time was this Mrs. Ives It was April was a Twelve-month Lord Chief Just What time in April do you think Mrs. Ives I cannot say the day L. C. J. But what time of the month was it Mrs. Ives I don't justly know I think it was the middle of April or thereabouts Lord Ch. Just Call another witness Sir Chr. Levins Call Mrs. Mayo who was sworn Sir Chr. Levins Well what say you when did you see Dr. Oates in England Mayo I never saw his Face till a week before whitesontide or a little after there was a young man a Servant of Sir Richard Barker's that knew him a long time before he came to me and said Yonder is Mr. Oates hath changed his coat from a black to a white what is he said I he was a Minister but he is either turned Quacker or Catholick but said I he is not turned Quaker for he wears a Perriwig and he fell a laughing and jeering at him said I why do you deride this Gentleman when he is a friend of Sir Richard Barker's Lord Ch. Just Where was mr Oates then Mayo He was in the Court-yard and I was in the Kitchen Lord Ch. Just When was this Mayo The week before Whitsontide L. C. J. In what month Mayo It was in May. Lord Ch. Just Did you know him before then Mayo No I did not but I had heard much of him in the Family L. C. J How soon did you see him again after that Mayo About a Week after he came and brought another with him and walked into the Garden and seemed to be discontented that they did not shew such a countenance to him as they used to do in the House for the Gentlewomen had heard he was turned Jesuite and therefore were very shye that is Sir Richard's Kinswomen my Ladies Sisters Daughters Lord Ch. Just Do you know Dr. Oates now Mayo Very well Sir Afterward he came again and walked into the Garden and the young man I spoke of before that is now dead came again tooke notice of him of the strange Garbe he was in he was in a Room that looked into the Garden I saw him walking there said he Yonder is Oates again and hath brought another with him he looked out of the window and said he Perithee look here does not he looke like a Jesuite and he that was with him lookt back if it had not been for that the young man's importunity I had never taken notice of mr Oates After when I heard he was come over and gave in his Testimony about the Plot I would needs go see him but he spoke very slightingly to me and seemed to be offended with the Family because they did scorn him Said I They had no reason to countenance you because we all understood you were turned Catholick They did said he look very shye upon me Why said I you must not be offended for you know all the Family are no friends to Jesuites and I hope never will be so but I hope mr Oates you will not forget eaten Bread because he used to be made very much of at Sir Richard Barker's Sir Chr. Levins Is that the man that you saw there Mayo This is the man if you will put me to my Oath again I will swear it Sir Chr. Levins When was this Mayo It was the week before Whitesontide it was in May for Whitsontide fell in May. Sir Chr. Levins Then call Philip Page Who was sworn Sir Chr. Levins Do you know Dr. Oates Page Yes Sir Sir Chr Levins How long have you known him Page I have known him four or five years L. C. J. Pray did you see him in the year 1678 last year Page Yes I did L. C. J. At what time Page About the beginning of May. L. C. J. Where Page at Sir Richard Barker's Lord Ch. Just Were you acquainted with him before Page I had spoke with him before Lord Ch. Just How do you know it was he did you speak with him then Page Yes I did Lord Ch. Just What Habit was he in Page He had a light-coloured Campaign Coat I ask'd him where he had been so long a time that we had not seen him but he turned away from me and gave me no account but after he had been in the house made back again and away he went after he enquired for Sir Richard Lord Ch. Just How do you know it was in May why might it not be in April Page It was in the beginning of May to the best of my knowledge L. C. J. By what material Circumstances do you remember it was in the beginning of May Is there any thing that puts it into your mind more particularly Page My master had a patient at that time that was sick of a Feaver L. C. J. Where at Sir Richard Barker's House Page At Islington it was Jury We desire to know what the Patients name was for some of us know Islington very well Page I Have forgot the name Sir Rich. Barker It was Aldram Milver's daughter L C. J. It was about that time in May that you saw him Page I did upon my Oath and I spoke with him and took much notice of him he had an old black Hat on that flapp'd and a pair of Spanish Leather shoos Sir Chr. Levins Call Sir Richard Barker Who was sworn L. C J. Do you know Dr. Oates Sir Richard Barker Yes my Lord I have known his Father and him ever since he hath been a Child I saw him the last Summer L. C. J. About what time Sir Richard Barker At that time that they have given in Evidence I have only this to say I was abroade as my business leads me often abroade into the Country but they told me mr Oates came to my house in a Disguise that they believed he was turned either Quaker or Papist L. C. J. When was this Sir Richard Barker It was my Lord to the best of my remembrance after Whitsontide that they told me but they told me a Story of him how that he was in two several Disguises the one was a short Hair and then they thought he was turned Quaker an other time he had a Long Perriwig and then they thought he was turned Papist and the first that told me was this Fellow here that is a Coachman of mine who was mending some thing of his Coach It happened my Lord upon the visiting of a Gentleman that I was very ill in which time mr Oates was gone and afterwards when I was recovered again he came to my house to enquire concerning Dr. Tongue L. C. J. When did you see him first Sir Richard Barker It was my Lord to the best of my remembrance the latter end of June or beginning of July upon my Recovery Lord C. J. By the Oath that you have taken I would ask you one Question Did not you see

to Rise when the Blow should be given in England Lord Ch. Just was that in Whitebreads's Letter Doctor Oates Yes my Lord and Mr. Whitebread did say He did hope it would not be long ere it was given Now my Lord by the word Blow we did use to understand and had instructions to understand the death and murder of the King and in the month of January I think it was that he sent over two Jesuits into Ireland to see how the state of Affairs stood there in the beginning of April they returned of which we had an account from Mr. Whitebread by Letters wherein there was mention of a Consult to be held in the month of April old Stile and May new Stile according to the Order there given there met at that Consult the Prisoners at the Bar Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt and Turner and if it please your Lordship all these at that Consult did Sign a Resolve Mr Whitebread at his Chamber which was at Wild-house Mr. Fenwick at his Lodgings in Dru●y-lane and Mr. Harcourt who had some at his Chamber in Duke-Street But my Lord I am to premise this before I go any further that the Consult was begun at the Whitehorse Tavern in the Strand and there they did agree to send Father Cary to be their Procurator at Rome and after some such things were done they adjourned into several Clubs or Colloquies or what you please to call them One was at Mr. VVhitebread's Chamber another at Ireland's Chamber that is Executed another at Harcourt's and another at Fenwick's now here was a Resolve Signed by these Prisoners at the Bar in which Lord Ch. Just That is four of them Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt and Turner Dr. Oates Yes my Lord. Lord Ch. Just Was Gavan there Dr. Oates I dare not my Lord affect him with that because I cannot be positive but I le give you my Evidence against him by and by My Lord these four Gentlemen with the rest of their Accomplices did Sign a resolve which was this That Pickering and Grove should go on in their attempt to dispatch the King and this they did resolve upon and gave it as their Judgment as a very excellent expedient My Lord after this Consult we did return we were 8 or 10 that came over and may it please your Lordships in the month of June I think it was June he came to Flanders in order to visit his Colledges being Provincial of the Jesuits of England He did stay there as near as I can remember till the 10 of June and enquiring of the Fathers how Squares went in Town among other expressions he used this was one That he hoped to see the black Fools head at Whitehall laid f●st enough and that if his Brother should appear to follow in his footsteps his Pasport should be made too or to that purpose he should be dispatch'd Upon the 13 th of June old Stile the 23. new Stile I had orders to come for England according to which Order I came and did take the Pacquet-Boat as near as I can remember the 24 th which was 14 th old stile and we landed at Dover the 25 th very early in the morning and when I was at Dover I met with the prisoner at the Bar Mr. Fenwick and he my self and some others did take Coach and come as far as Canterbury after we had eaten and drunk there we came six miles further where there was a Box seized by the Searchers of the Town of Borton and this Box was brought up by Mr. Fenwick and directed to one Blundel and the Superscription was as near as I can remember in these words To the Honourable Richard Blundel Esq at London And this prisoner at the Bar Mr. Fenwick did desire that the Searchers would send it to him it was full of Beads and Crucifixes and such things to the Fountain Tavern near Charing-cross and writ a Letter to him by the name of Mr. Thompson a that was the name he usually went by when he came to Dover and he had then brought some Students there to send over to St. Omers L. C. J. When went Fenwick Dr. Oates When I came to Dover I met Fenwick by the name of Thompson going to send over the Students and Fenwick did say if they had searched his pockets as they had searched his Box they had found such Letters as would have cost him his life for saith he they were about our concern in hand Then we came up to London and arrived at London the 17th of June old stile for we lay a part of the way at Sittenburgh in the morning and in the afternoon we came to Dartford and came to London Monday noon the 17th old stile And in the month of July there was one Richard Ashby whose right name indeed is Thimbleby but he went by the name of Ashby and this Gentleman did bring over Instructions from the prisoner at the Bar Mr. Whitebread who was abroad in Flanders wherein he was to propose 10000 l. to Sir George Wakeman to poison the King and several other Instructions there were of which I cannot now give you an account and withal that a blank Commission should he filled up and ordered for Sir John Gage to be a military Officer in the Army and by that Gentleman 's own orders I delivered that Commission into Sir John Gages own hand on a Sunday Lord Ch. Just Where had you that Commission from Whitebread Dr. Oates It was signed and sealed by him but it was a blank and was to be filled up L. C. Just Where Dr. Oates It was at Wild-House L. C. J. How was it filled up Dr. Oates It was filled up by Mr. Whitebreads order it was signed and sealed blank and he ordered it to be filled up and me to take that Commission and carry it to Sir John Gage Whitebread Did I order you Dr. Oates You ordered Ashby I saw the Letter and knew it to be Whitebreads hand L. C. J. Was it before he went to St. Omers Dr. Oates It was while he was at St. Omers Whiteb. What day was it what hour Dr. Oates It was in July Whiteb. What time of the month Dr. Oates The beginning or middle Whiteb. Are you sure it was in July Dr. Oates I cannot be positive but I think it to be in July for Ashby went to the Bath the latter end of July or the beginning of August and it was before he went Whiteb. Who was present at the signing of this Commission Dr. Oates There was present at the filling up of this Commission Mr. Harcourt Mr. Ashby and Mr. Ireland Fenvick Was not I there Dr. Oates I think I filled it up I 'le tell you when you were there presently My Lord when Ashby went away Fenwick went out of Town but returned again presently to give an account how Squares went and really I cannot remember where he had been but as near as I can it was in Essex I will not be positive

in it but my Lord this same Gentleman Mr. Fenwick with Mr. Harcourt did advise Mr. Ashby that as soon as he had been at the Bath he should go and give an account to the people in Sommersetshire and there away his Circuit would be short and very easie and he did not question but before he came up ●o Town again to have the Gentleman at Whitehal dispatch'd whom they called the Black Bastard now I leave that to the Jury to expound whom they meant by it Fenwick What time was that Sir pray you must time things or you do nothing at all Dr. Oates It was the latter end of July or the beginning of August it was about the the time of Ashbys going to the Bath Fenw. Just now he said it was in the beginning or middle of July Dr. Oates I●e tell your Lordship what I said that this Ashby or Thimbleby came from St. Omers with those Orders or instructions either the beginning of July or the middle of July Fenw. I would not interrupt you Mr. Oates this was sometime before Mr. Ashby went to the Bath was it not Dr. Oates It was about a day before L. C. J. He says a thing that is plain enough Ashby came over about the beginning or middle of July with instructions about the Commission and about the latter end of July or beginning of August as he remembers this advice was given Dr. Oates And so we are arrived at the Affairs in August which reflects upon these Gentlemen but now I must speak a word to this Gentleman Mr. Gavan the prisoner at the Bar whom when I saw come into the Lobby he had gotten on a periwig so there was one asked me whether I knew him I know him now but truly then I did not well know him because he was under that mask and I could not say any thing against him then because he being under an ill ●avoured peeriwig and being a man that I knew had a good head of hair of his own I did not well understand the mystery of it and so spared my Evidene at that time from informing the Council against him but the prisoner at the Bar came by the name of Gavan and we used to call him by the name of Father Gavan And this Gentleman did in the month of June write Letters Gavan What year Dr. Oates In the year 1678. and did give the Fathers at London an account how affairs stood in Staffordshire and Shropshire and how diligent one father Evers was to manage affairs in those countries Gavan From whence were those Letters sent Dr. Oates There was only the day of the month you know it is not the custome to date the place When I saw the Letter first I did not know it was his hand I took it upon report but I will tell the Jury by and by how I came to know it was his hand as near as I can remember it was in the month of July it was July or August this Gentleman came to Town and I saw this Gentleman at Mr. Irelands chamber Gavan What time of the month Dr. Oates It was in July 1678 as near as I can guess Gavan Upon my Salvation I am as innocent as a child unborn Lord Ch. Just North. By this means you may put out any Witness in the world by interupting them When the Witness hath done his Testimony you may ask him any Questions to ascertain the time or any thing but you must not interrupt him till he hath done Dr. Oates In the latter part of July I think it was but it was as I remember while Mr. Ashby was in town I met him at Mr. Irelands chamber for he was a saying he would go see Father Ashby before he went out of Town and he gave such an account to Father Ireland of the affairs in Staffordshire Shropshire as he had given in the Letter before but to prove his hand he did draw a Bill upon one Sir William Andrews in Essex for the payment of some money of some little sucking Priests that were stroleing up and down the country I saw him write it and it was the same hand with that Letter Gavan What did I write L C. J. You drew a Bill upon such a person and he names him Dr. Oates We are now come to August L. C. J. But you say he discoursed about the same things with Ireland that he had wrote in the Letter Dr. Oates Ye● my Lord. Gavan And what were those same things Dr. Oates Why how the Affairs stood in Staffordshire and Shropshire how my Lord Stafford was very diligent I desire to be excused as to that because it will diminish my Evidence in another part of it I le tell you part of what was then discoursed of Gavan My Lord he is sworn to speak all the truth L. C. J You must speak the whole truth as far as it concerns any of these perons Dr. Oates He gave an account how prosperous things were in those countrys and did say that there was at least two or three thousand pounds that would be ready in that country for the carrying on the Design I think it was three but it was betwixt two and three Now my Lord we are arrived to our business in August about the 12 th of August as near as I remember but it was between the 8 th and the 12 th therein I am positive Ireland which is executed took his leave of us as if he were to go to St. Omers L. C. J. Where did he take his leave Dr. Oates At his chamber in Russel-street Ireland went out of Town and Fenwick by that means was to be Treasurer and Procurator to the Society altogether He had that employ afterward upon him during his absence let Mr. Ireland go whither he would And the 21. of Aug. which as near as I remember fell upon a Wednesday Mr. Fenwick and Mr. Harcourt were met together at Wildhouse and some other Fathers as Father Kaines and one Father Blundell and some other Fathers whom I cannot remember Gavan Was I there pray Sir Dr. Oates No no Sir I am not to talk to you still I am to speak to the Court. Lord Ch. Just North. We would recommend this to you to name persons when you speak of them Dr. Oates Where I have occasion I will name them my Lord. Mr. Fenwick and Harcourt were together at Wildhouse and Mr. Kaines and Mr. Blundell and as near as I remember Mr. Langworth was there but I wont be positive And there lay before them at Wildhouse Fourscore pounds the most of that money was Guineys which was to be paid to the four Irish Russians that were to murther the King at Windsor After it was agreed that they should do it and Coleman who was executed came thither and gave the messenger a Guiney to expedite the journey We drew off from Wildhouse and went to Master Harcourts chamber and because Master Harcourt had there left his

any Question Gav Mr. Oates you say you saw my Name to a Letter for the taking up of money To whom was that letter writ Dr. Oates There was a letter from you to Mr. Ireland And he did receive it by the hands of Grove Gavan Where was that money to be taken up Dr Oates My Lord I say that letter was received by Grove who is out of the way and can't prove it and was delivered to Ireland L.C. J. I perceive your memory is not good Gav I perceive his memory is very good Dr. Oates This letter did give an account of the business of Staffordshire and the particulars of that Mr. Gavan did afterwards give an accompt of by word o mouth and ●ome other things not fit to be named Gavan Pray where was it Sir that I gave an account of it in London or in the country Dr. Oates In London Gavan In what month Dr Oates In July it was Gavan What part of July Dr. Oates It was when Mr. Ashby was in Town the beginning or middle Gavan Just now you said it was in the latter end Dr. Oates My Lord I beg this favour that if the Prisoners at the Bar ask any questions they may be proposed to the court for they are nimble in their Questions and do a little abuse the Evidence They put things upon them that they never say Mr. Just Pemberton propose your questions to the Bench that you would have asked Gavan I will do so my Lord in whose Honour I have more confidence than in whatsoever Mr. Oates says or swears L. C. J. But he tells you who you drew your Bill of exchange upon and that was Sir William Andrews L. C. J. North Don't give the King's Witnesses ill words L. C. J. Have you any more to ask any of you Whitebread Yes my Lord. L. Ch Just See if you can catch him he gives you a long and exact accompt as can be given by any man in England and pray direct your self Mr. Whitebread to the Court. Whitebread He says he was here in April and at the Consult now I desire to know how long before that time were you I acquainted Dr. Oates Why before that time I never saw Mr. Whitbread's face Whitebread what imployment were you to have and what reward Dr. Oates When I came away from St. Omers I was to attend the motion of the Fathers at your Chamber and to carry the Resolve from chamber to chamber where the Fathers were respectively met Fenwick was not you at the White-Horse-Tavern Dr. Oates Yes I was there Fenwick Did you dine there Dr Oates No our stay was short there Fenwick How long did you stay in Town Dr. Oates Truly I can't tell you exactly but from the time I came into England to the time I went our again was under Twenty days Fenwick Who were they that came over with you Name the Parties Dr. Oa I will tell you who they were but it 's so long since I can't exactly remember Fenwick You need not trouble your memory you have them in your Narrative Dr. Oates My Lord there was Father Williams the Rector of Wotton the Rector of Leige Sir John Warner Sir Thomas Preston and some others Whitebread Was not Mr. Nevel there Dr. Oates I believe he was it is like he might be there Whitebread Was not Sir Robert Brett there Dr. Oates I believe he might Whitebread You have said so in your Narrative L. C. J. Perhaps a man will venture to write more than he will Swear not that he does Write what he does not believe but that he knows he ought to be more cautious in his Oath than in his Affirmation Fenwick My Lord with your Lordships favour it is upon Oath L.C.J.N. Fenwick you are in a Court of Law and we must go according to the Law if you will prove any contradiction in him to his Oath you must bring the persons here that saw him take the Oath and you must not think to take a Pamphlet for Evidence Fenwick It was Sworn before a Justice of Peace and will not I suppose be denied and therefore he must make his Evidence agree with it being part of his Narrative Gavan You speak of one thing in August and of another in July which month saw you me in Dr. Oates I told you I saw you in Town in July and when Father Ashby or Thimbleby was in Town And you said you would go and see him Just Pemberton He says it was in July and that is enough Gavan What time in July Dr. Oates It was towards the middle or latter end Gavan Was it before Mr. Ashby went to the Bath Dr. Oates It was so Lord Chief Just He says he saw you in Town when Ashby was in Town which was towards the latter end of July or beginning of August He cannot tell exactly whether but positively he says before Mr. Ashby went to the Bath Lord Chief Just North Well to satisfie you we will ask Mr. Oates the Question again Can you recollect whether it was the middle or latter end of July Dr. Oates My Lord as near as I can remember it was about the middle of July that Ashby came to Town and he did not stay in Town above a Fortnight And it was whilst he was in Town and designed to go down to the Bath That this Gentleman came to Town and gave accompt of the particulars of that Letter Lord Chief Just North You may ask him any Questions but I would have you observe what accompt he gives That about the middle of July Ashby came to Town that he staied in Town about a fortnight as he believes that during that time you came to Town and then was this Discourse Dr. Oates During that time I saw him in Town but I know not exactly when it was Gavan My Lord I would ask him one Question the thing that is brought against me is this He says Mr. Ashby came to Town in the middle of July that he stayed in Town a fortnight that while he was there I came to Town and had such Discourse Now my Lord I desire to know whether it was the first week or last week that Ashby was in Town that he saw me Lord Chief Just If he can answer it let him Dr. Oates My Lord I cannot Lord Chief Just He tells you he cannot charge his memory with it Dr. Oates No my Lord nor will not Lord Chief Just Really I believe there is scarce one in all this company able to give an accompt of a particular time of a passage so long ago Gavan No doubt he hath an excellent memory Lord Chief Just And if he had not some memorials of this he could not do it And though he hath memorials of the most eminent passages yet we cannot suppose he hath of all circumstances Gavan But this is the substance and your Lorship may conceive that not without Reason I urge it for if Mr. Ashby came to Town the beginning

but I am confident it was not because I used to order my maid to get him his Linnen ready upon any Journey he had none now Dr. Oates My Lord he took a Chamber to go into the Exercise now my Lord he taking a Chamber on purpose for this very thing he might pretend that and come to London the while and they not know it because he was shut up for none are to come at them Winford My Lord I know not any such thing of him but this is a Rule amongst them that when they are so shut up if there be a necessary occasion to come to them about any particular business as sending them Linnen or so they have admittance to them L. C. J. Were you employ'd upon any such extraordinary matter Winford My Lord I used to go and see him and carry him his Linnen L. C. J. And can you charge your memory with that Winford Yes my Lord I can L. C. J. When the Latter end of July Winford Yes my Lord I often went to see him then when he was gone from my house L. C. J. Where was he for all the former part of July till those eight days Winford He was at my own house L. C. J. When went he first into this recluse way Winford He went from my house the 23th of July L. C. J. Was he not close when he was with you Winford No my Lord. L. C. J. And the last eight dayes you had access to him Winford Yes I had L. C. J. I ask you Are these people shut up at a certain time and there is no coming to them upon any occasion Winford My Lord most of those days I did see him indeed he was shut up but upon any kind of business as carrying of the Linnen and sometimes a pair of Gloves and other things of his own or sometimes to speak with him about business were admitted to him L. C. J. I see your Confinements are not so great as you would make them to be or he would have us think I ask you once more whether you can say that during the months of June and July it was not possible for him to make a step to London and you never the wiser Winford I am very confident he did not he was not absent long enough to do it Sir Cr. Levins You said just now you could not say positively but he might be absent for five or six days Winford I do not believe he did for he had no linnen with him which he used to have when he went to London L. C. J. But supposing he had no linnen might he not go to London and you not know of it Winford I Can't tell whether he was absent or no long enough to do it Gaven Pray my Lord let me speak as I live an innocent man will be lost else He says expresly I was in Town in July and gives this argument for it That Mr. Ashby was in Town and he met me with him L. C. J. No no Mr. Oates was not so positive he says it was either in June or July but he rather thinks it was July But Mistris might not he in the beginning of July be absent so long as a man might go to London and return again in the first three weeks of July I mean Winford My Lord I cannot charge my memory because I did not know what I should be asked and so could not recollect my self I onely say I am confident of it because he always told me when he went such a Journey that I might make provision of Linnen to sit him for it L. C. J. Your reasons are weak because he used to tell you that you might get him linnen men upon extraordinary occasions do extraordinary things so that you are not to govern your self by what he used to do in his acquainting you or you in providing his linnen This was no ordinary Errand and therefore I don't ask you whether he had linnen from you or no but you are onely to charge your self with remembring whether he could not be absent long enough out of your sight to have been such a Journey Gaven Pray my Lord give me fair play He does charge it expresly and is precise to a day He saith I was here in July after that Ashby was come to Town and before that he went out of Town And he says that Ashby came to Town in the middle of July and went out of Town about the latter end of July or beginning of August Now my Lord I say this he saying that Ashby came to Town the middle of July and staid there a fortnight and then went to the Bath that I came to Town while that he was there if I prove that I was in Staffordshire from the 15th or 16th of July to the end of the month then I shall clear my self evidently for he does in effect charge me to be here some time in that fortnights time and I prove that all the latter part of July I was in the country L. C. J. He does not charge it to a day but he says it was about a fortnight Dr. Oates Mr. Ashby came to Town in the beginning or middle of July I rather think it was the middle but I dare not upon my Oath be positive as to the time and in that time Mr. Ashby staid in Town mr Gaven came to London for I remember he said he would go and see Father Ashby who was then at Wild-house L. C. J. Prove where you were now all July Call your Witneses Gaven I prove that I was at Wolverhampton from the 23th to the end of the month L. C. J. Call your witnesses to prove where you were the beginning that can speak expressly to it Gaven My Lord I have them not here L. C. J Why then would you make us lose all this time Gaven My Lord I will tell you hear the words of an ingenuous man being as I was innocent not knowing What they intended to charge me with I in my mind run over all that I could imagine I had at any time done that they could lay hold on If I had been guilty of any thing my own conscience would have told me of it and I should have provided to have given some Answer to it but being innocent I was to ransack my memory to sum up all the passages of my life where I had been what I had said what I had done that would give them any occasion of accusing me And because I did imagine they might think I was here the 24th of April I brought witnesses for that and because I did imagine that they might speak of some Consults in April I sent up for such witnesses at my own charge as could testifie where I was then L. C J. But you have not one Protestant that testifies for you Gavau And now my Lord I humbly cast my self upon the Honour and Justice of this Honourable and Just Court to which I submit

my self with all my heart and soul haveing used all the remedies I can I have cleared my self as to the main day the 24th of April whereon all the pretended Plot lies And I 'le bring Witnesses that shall swear I was not in London in August and if my eternal Salvation lay upon it I could averr I was not in London and I wish I may be made an example of justice before all the world in the sight of God I speak it if I be not the most innocent person in the world And my Lord seeing there is only his Oath for it and my denial I have onely one demand I don't know whether it be not an extravagant one or no if it be I don't desire to have it granted L. C. J. What is that Demand Gaven You know that in the beginning of the Church this learned and just Court must needs know that that for one thousand years together it was a custom and grew to a constant law for the Tryal of persons accused of any capital Offence where there was onely the accusers Oath and the Accused's denial for the prisoner to put himself upon the Tryal of Ordeal to evidence his own Innocencie L. C. J. North We have no such law now L. C. J. You are very fanciful Mr. Gaven you believe that your cunning in asking such a thing will take much with the auditory but this is onely an artificial Varnish You may do this with hopes of haveing it take with those that are Roman Catholicks who are so superstitious as to believe Innocency upon such desires but we have a plain way of understanding here in England and that helpt very much by the Protestant Religion so that there is scarce any Artifice big enough to impose upon us You ask a thing that sounds much of a pretence to innocencie and that it would be a mighty suffering if you should miscarry because you ask that you know you can't have Our Eyes and our understandings are lest us though you do not leave their Understannings to your Proselytes but you are mistaken if you think to impose that upon us that you do upon them and you do so impose upon them But I 'll tell you there is scarce any man with us that can be a Papist for you cannot deceive and gull us as you have done all that you have perverted to your way Gaven Is it any harm my Lord to ask whether I might not be so tried L. C. J. North look you here Mr. Gaven the time is far spent if you have any thing to say we will hear you if you have any witnesses call them and we will examine them but if not the other Prisoners must be admitted to make their defence as well as you Gaven All these six can prove that I was at Wolverhampton the last week in July Then another Witness stood up for him Gaven Where was I in July Witness I cannot speak to all July but my Lord I can declare that Mr. Gaven was in Staffordshire the last week of July every day I am confident L. C. J. Where was the first three weeks in July Witness I cannot speak as to that but in the last week in July he came to an apartment of an house that I lived in L. C. J. Cook you Mr. Gaven you see what this Evidence is she says that you were in Staffordshire the last week in July for you had an apartment in the house she lived in Call another Who stood up L. C. J. Where was mr Gaven in July last 2 Witness My Lord I saw him my self at the latter end of July for very many days for he was in a Room of the house that I lived in I am sure most of the last week L. C. J. Where was he the last fortnight 2 Witness I am confident I saw him all the last fortnight but I cannot be positive L. C. J. Call another Who stood up L. C. J. Where was mr Gaven in July 3. Witness My Lord I lived in the same Town with him and I do not remember that he was out all July but the last week he was in our house Lord Chief Just Well call another Who stood up Lord Chief Just Where was Mr. Gaven in July last 4 Witness He was in July last the last week in a part of our house Lord Chief Just So then he came home from London the 23 th or 24 th of July Well Mr. Gaven have you any more Witnesses to any other purpose for here are enough to this Gaven No my Lord. Lord Chief Just Mr. Whitebread have you any Witnesses to call Wh My Lord I have only this and I desire to be heard in this point to prove that Mr. Oats was mistaken in his Evidence that he gave at the last Trial against Mr. Ireland L C. J Look you I must break in upon you you have been told so often all of you have been told it and yet you are upon the former Trials again You are now upon your trial for your life if you could have disproved any thing that he said at a former trial you should have taken a legal way and convicted him of perjury but now to charge him with a printed Paper is not fair You must speak to what he says now Whitebread He says the same now But all that I say is this If he be not honest he can be witness in no case I suppose if any one can prove him not Probus Testis his Testimony is not to be received in any case Lord Chief Just But how will you prove that Come on I 'le teach you a little 〈…〉 ●ill come to contradict a Witness you ought to do it in a matter which is the present debate here for if you would convict him of any thing that he said in Irelands Trial we must try Irelands Cause over again But if you will say any thing against what he says now do Whitebread That which I would alledg is this If he be convicted of perjury in one case he is not to be believed in another Lord Chief Just You say right if he be convicted Whitebread He is not only then an incompetent Witness for he cannot be said to be probus testis but he is improbus Now this is that I can prove Mr. Just Pemberton Nay you must shew it by a Record Lord Chief Just You cannot have so little understanding you that have been and were to be so great a man among them had been Provincial and was to have been somewhat else I have told you already that to prove him to be a man that hath no faith in him he must be convicted You must have indicted him and convicted him of the thing wherein he did commit perjury and then he had been prepared to justifie himself But shall you come now and at this your Trial and prove what he said at Staleys Trial and Colemans Trial and Irelands Trial And must we examine what matters have

him till June Sir Richard Barker No my Lord but my servants told me they had seen him in May before Whitsuntide L. C. J Did you see him in June Sir Richard Barker To the best of my remembrance it was in June Then one Butler was sworn L. C. J. Come do you know Dr. Oates Butler Yes very well Lord Ch. J How long have you known him Butler I have known him these three years before he went beyond Sea L. C. J. Come you are upon your Oath when did you see Dr. Oates and where the beginning of last Sumer Butler I saw him in the beginning of last May at my Masters house in Barbican L. C. J. Upon what occasion what are you Butler I am Sir Richard Barker's Coachman And I was making clean my coach in the Gate-house in comes Dr. Oates in May last was twelve-moneth the beginning of May with his Hair cut off close cropt to his Ears in Gray Cloaths a Gray Coat like a Shepherds Coat a York-shire Gray he asked me whether Dr. Tongue was within I told him no nevertheless he went into the house immediately came out again seemed to be very much discontented but said nothing at all to me but passed by me went away L. C. J. And did you know him at that time he spoke to you first Butler Yes my Lord because I knew him three years before L. C. J. You could have then called him by his name Butler Yes my Lord I could L. C. J. You say he came to inquire for Dr. Tongue and was discontented that he could not see him Butler He said nothing to me when he came out but passed away as one that was troubled L. C. J. Did you you see him afterwards Butler Six weeks after I saw him and then he had a long black Coat and a perwig on L. C. J. But are you sure it was the same man Butler I am upon my Oath Mr. Just Dolben Did you tell your mr of his being there the first time Butler I did tell Sir Richard Barker of him as soon as I saw him L. C. J. Sir Richard how soon did he tell you Oates was first there Sir Richard Barker It was soon after my Lord. L. C. J. Was it in May that he told you he had seen him Sir Richard Barker He told me as soon as ever I came home in May as I remember L. C. J. Did he tell you mr Oates was there by name Sir Richard Barker Yes my Lord he did And when he told me what Habit he was in I wondred at it Dr Oates There are several my Lord that did see me at that time but they are gone into the Country and I cannot have them now ready If you please now to call Mr. Smith the School-master of Islington Who was sworn Sir C. Levines Do you know Dr. Oates Mr. Smith Yes very well Sir C. Le. Pray Sir how long have you known him Mr. Smith He was my Scholar at Merchant-Taylors School where I was Usher Sir C. Lev. When did you see him the beginning of last Summer Mr. Smith I saw him in the beginning of last May that is 1678. L. C.J. Where did you see him Mr. Sm. He dined with me at my house in Islington Mr. J. Dolben What the Boys at St. Omers now are gone L. C. J. Recollect your self well By the Oath you have taken did Dr. Oates in May was twelve month dine with you Mr. Smith Yes my Lord he did and it was the first Munday in May as I remember Mr. J.D. And this you swear directly and positively Mr. S. Yes my Lord I do L. C. J. How long did he stay there Mr. Smith He staid 3 or 4 hours after And may it please you my Lord he was in a Summer suit and a coloured Ribbon a green knot upon his shoulder L. C. J. What did you discourse about Mr. Smith About his being in Spain and Flanders and his Travels L. C. J. Had you a long discourse with him Mr. Smith Yes I had L. C. J Had you nothing about the Times Mr. Smith No my Lord not a word L. C. J. Did you understand he had been turned Roman Catholick Mr. Smith I did know it Jury my Lord did mr Smith see him any other time after that Mr. S. No my Lord not in 2 months to my remembrance about the middle of August Sir Chr. Levins Call one Clay who was sworn L. C. J. Do you know Dr. Oates Mr. Clay Yes my Lord I do L. C. J. How long have you known him Mr. Clay Ever since April last was twelve-month L. C. J. Was that the first time of your Acquaintance with him Mr Clay Yes at Mr. Charles Howards L C. J Where were you there with him Mr. Clay He lived in one corner of old Arundel house L. C. J. How came you acquainted with him M. Clay Truly I met him accidentally at mr Howards-house L.C J. How came you to come there Mr. Clay I was there to visit Mr. Howards a Friend L. C. J. Were you acquainted with him Mr. Clay Yes I was with Mr. Howard and there I saw Dr. Oates L. C. J. When did you see him the second time Mr. Clay The second time I think I saw him there too L. C. J. When was that Mr. Clay That was in May. L. C. J. North. How long was that after Mr. Clay I think the other was in April L. C. J And did you see him in May Mr Clay I saw him in May too L. J. C. Clay What time of the month was it Mr. I cannot exactly speak to that but it was in that month as I remember I am morrally certain of it L. C. J. And when did you see him after May Mr. Clay I cant tell whether I saw him after May or not L. C. J. Is that the same man that you saw at Mr. Howards either in April or May Mr. Clay Yes my Lord it is the same man Sir Charles Levins Then we have done with our Evidence L. C. J. Come Gentlemen now what can you say to this They have given you ●●w their full charge Dr. Oates my Lord I have one thing more I desire your Lordship to take notice this Gent. mr Clay is a Priest in Orders as they say L. C. J. I will not ask him that question but Mr. Clay are you a Papist Mr. Clay Yes my Lord I am so L. C. J. North. Come what say you now Mr. Whitebread to this Whitebread I have this to say first That at my last Trial when I press'd him to declare who had seen him when he said he was here in Town he could name no body not one I know afterwards he was examined at the Committee and then he could name no body neither He said he was there privately at mr Groves and we can prove that he never did lye there in his life And then he said absolutely he had not seen much Company he stay'd but 6 days

Now this good Dr. that does say he saw him here in the latter end of March or the middle of April whereas he himself says he came over with Hilsley the 24th of April L. C. J. He was Landed here the 17th of April and the Witnesses say it was the latter end of April or beginning of May. Whitebread mr Oates expresly said he stay'd here but 6 dayes when he came over to the Consult L. C. J. Why does not all this stand together Whitebread No my Lord how could this stand together His coming over the 17th and his being here a great part in May whereas he says he was but 6 days L. C. J. Perchance Dr. Oates may be precise enough but look you here these Witnesses do not so exactly to a day or two or 3 or 4 or 5 but to the latter end of April now why might they not see him the latter end of April and the beginning of May and yet stand very well with mr Oates testimony who says he was landed here about the 17th of April and staied here about 6 or 7 days How nice would you have them be in that case which because they are honest they will not be L. C. J. Nor. You make your defences to depend upon an uncertainty of time which no mortal man can ever remember besides pray observe this That Mr. Oates stands a good witness till you impeach him by a fry out of your own Schools and they go to the whole moneths of June and April and May now these all speak in contradiction to them and so mr Oates is still set an upright and good witness Whitebread They say they did see him there every day or every other day L. C. J. But sure I can as well tell who see him but once in such a month and dined with him then as any that saw him never so often but here are five Witnesses upon you in this point Whitebread The one was told by his man the other by his boy L. C. J. The Coach-man and the boy and the maid and mr Smith did see him Mr. Just Pemberton The Divine did see him and went and told the woman that he had seen him pray remember that L. C. J. Nor. Now the Evidence is concluded say what you will for your selves and then we will observe what you object upon our direction to the Jury according to our Consciences Gaven My Lord then I say this for my self we commit our selves to God Almighty We must compare the number tho ours were not sworn yet there were 16 of them boys young men that conversed with him every day and these witnesses speak but of one or two particular days One says he dined with him and another saw him in a disguise but my Lord in these very Witnesses there is an apparent contradiction because out of his own mouth ex ore tuo te judico they are contradicted He says he came over upon Sunday with Hilsley which was the 20th of April as I think and stayed here only a matter of 6 days One of the witnesses says he saw him the first Munday in May What signifie the witnesses though upon Oath that say they him in May How can he come over the 20th of April and stay but 6 days and be seen here in May Before these can be reconciled one of them must be false and then my Lord besides that which I first said there is the number of witnesses they are nothing in comparison with the number of ours And then my Lord 2 dly if we should grant that a lesser number should serve the turn because they are sworn for the King because they swear for the safety of the King whom God preserve whatsoever becomes of me and the other speak not upon their Oaths yet my Lord this does not destroy nor touch at all that evidence that is brought against him about the Rector of Leige Sir John Warner and Sir Thomas Preston And tho it be granted that all the others that spoke about mr Oates being at St. Omers be mistaken and must not be believed yet we have him still by those 6 others who have proved that he hath sworn false and I hope we shall have fair play in the Law to make the best defence we can for our lives and I humbly conceive no body must be convicted of High Treason by the Law but upon the Evidence of two sufficient witnesses Now I leave it to the Conscience Honour of the Court whether he shall be believed and counted a sufficient witness when there are so many that have proved him false in that one point And then besides all this my Lord we have here 16 at least Stafford-shire Witnesses who give you an account of mr Irelands being out of London from the 2 d. of August till 14 September so that in these two things he hath been contradicted without any Answer for he says the 12. of August he was with him when they say he was in Stafford-shire L.C. J. You have forgot the maid that saw him in London the 12 or 13. Gaven No my Lord I have not And this is it I answer to it She is a witness that only says she just saw him but did not speak to him L. C. J. She made a Courtesie to him Gaven We are talking now of seeing Ireland in August and we prove by Sir John Souththcott and all his Family who say they began their journey with him the 5th of August and stayed with him till the 19 th after the particular day that she speaks of you find 7 or 8 of them swear that they saw him all the time And therefore I would feign know whether poor mens lives shall be cast away upon such Evidence as this And then my Lord for the other thing I hope I have made a very good Plea for my self concerning the matter of July my witnesses could be positive as to the last week but for the other weekes tho they could not be positive they rather believed I was there then not but when it is urged why might not they give as good a testimony for the former weeks as for that To this I answer fully that there is a great predominant reason why they should have particular reason to swear why I should be there the last week rather than the other weeks because I was then shut up in the spiritual exercise they had a particular reason to take notice of that Then my Lord I hope you will be pleased to mind this by which I have made my Plea good that is my Lord that mr Oates testimony against me is this mr Ashby came to town about the middle of July and that he stay'd there about a fortnight and that in the time of that fortnight I came to Town and said I would go see Father Ashby and had that discourse be speaks of and so much for that And then my Lord I beseech you still to bear it in