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A00759 A defence of the liturgie of the Church of England, or, Booke of common prayer In a dialogue betweene Nouatus and Irenæus. By Ambrose Fisher, sometimes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge. Fisher, Ambrose, d. 1617.; Grant, John, fl. 1630. 1630 (1630) STC 10885; ESTC S122214 157,602 344

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Infants are prasented in Baptisme So they were in Circumcision Presentation of the Childe to l Luke 2. 22. God And therefore the thing it selfe is also disanulled I. That was not the only end thereof For in case the Childe died yet the Mother was to be purified And therefore that place in Luke doth admit a double reading either the purification of her m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or of n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 them that is of the Mother and the Childe There was an other end more peculiar to the Mother N. That is sacrificing as appeares o Leuit. 12. 6. by I. But what dutie by that sacrifice was intimated N. Two principall duties were insinuated First the acknowledgement of her sinne For which cause besides the great Purification which was performed in her owne separation seuen dayes if it were a Male and in the Circumcision of the Childe vpon the eight day but in case it were a female in separation for fourteene dayes she had also the lesse purification which endured thirtie three dayes if it were a sonne and sixtie six if a daughter whereby was signified First that the the sinne of Euah was p A double Sinne a double purification and repentance double to that of Adam For he sinned alone shee deceiued him also Secondly that shee deriued sinne from her selfe to her children For this cause also shee offered a sinne offering Secondly as for the whole burnt Offering it was Eucharisticall namely a thankesgiuing for her safe deliuerance I. It is manifest then though sacrifice bee abolisht yet confession of sinnes and thankesgiuings for benefits doe remaine N. That these things remaine we denie not But why should they be publique By the same reason euery man that hath escaped shipwracke warre or fire should present his publike thankes in the Church I. If it were so were the pot broken or the waterspilt Did not the Prophet so in the q Ps 116. 13 14 Psalme In publike benefits wee solemnize publike thankesgiuings Now the benefit of deliuerance from the paines of child-birth is in a manner publique Forasmuch as these dolours were inflicted vpon the whole r Gen. 3. 16. female sexe N. The Iudaisme of your purification appeares First in that you bring in the vaile which is a ragge of Superstition I. What thinke you of Rebeccaes vaile which she put on in the presence of ſ Gen. 14. 65. Isaac N. It was a modell of her modestie but what is that to the vaile in the Church I. Not only that modestie but euen that vaile is required by Saint Paul in the t 1 Cor. 11. 10. Congregation N. It is imposed vpon all women not vpon them alone which come to be Churched I. Can you indure Saint Paul making it a perpetuall ordinance and yet not tolerate it in vs which doe not so much command it to bee vsed as shew what is decent Certainly if it be at all times comely then especially at that time when women being guiltie of their owne infirmities should shew the greatest symbols of shamefastnesse in Publique Assemblies From which for a time by necessitie of corrupted nature they haue beene separated N. The second argument of your Iudaisme is the offering imposed vpon Women I. Doe you dislike the thing or the name N. Wee doe not so much insist vpon the thing as being pretended to bee a dutie or due to the Minister but the tearme Offering is Iewish I. Tithes were Offerings u Numb 18. 24. to God But Tithes were duties due to the x Numb 18. 31. Priests as being the recompence for their seruice Therefore the duties of the Priest are indeed and may be called Offerings N. In this reason I obserue two things First that you make things due to the Minister to bee Wages or Stipends whereas some of your fellowes thinke Stipends as bad as Almes I. Stipends from the wauering multitude without Charter or Patent differ not in nature from Almes But Honourable Stipends set downe by the Lawes of God and the Prince we disallow not For as the stipend of a Souldier is giuen by the Prince though it be deducted from the tribute imposed vpon the People So the tithes of the Priests are God's Stipends though first consecrated to God by the people his tributaries N. If a man hire workmen to make a bridge for the benefit of the Countrie shall wee not say that he giueth a great Almes I. No doubt hee doth to the Countrey but not to the labourers vnlesse they take their hire and worke not And yet euen then are they not almesmen but theeues and are compellable both to make restitution and to suffer punishment In like manner he that erecteth a Church and giueth maintenance to a Priest doth indeed a singular almes to the people but none to the Priest vnlesse hee bee vnfaithfull and yet euen then he is not an almesman but a robber and stands answerable to his Superiours vnder God N. If all the people then giue tithes doe they giue almes to themselues I. They giue their homage to God and to the Minister they performe an action of Iustice not of liberalitie If any almes be it is to themselues For example If the maker of the Bridge of which we spake doe thereby reape to his owne person some maine benefit as the preseruation of his life and the like may not hee bee said in a sort to haue giuen himselfe an almes N. The second thing remarkeable in your reason is that you seem to maintain Iewish Tithes I. Tithes we defend but not as Iewish For whereas among the Iewes there were fiue kinds of Tithes First Prediall or great Tithes due to the Priests and a Leuit. ●7 30. Numb 18. 24. Leuits Secondly Personall called the offerings of the b Deut. 12 6. hands due to the same likewise Thirdly the Tithe of Tithes due to the High c Numb 18. 26. Priest Fourthly the Anniuersarie d Deut. 14. 22. Tithes which were spent in the Voyage to and from the Tabernacle in which the Leuite had also a part Fiftly the e Deut. 14. 28. Three yeares Tithes whereof part likewise came to the Leuite we hold that prediall and personall tithes are due to Ministers The tithe of tithes partly to the Prince partly to the Bishops The yearely and three yeare tithes partly to the reparations of Churches Schooles and Colledges yea and if need were for their erection partly for the maintenance of the Ministers themselues where their ordinary tithes are not found competent and of the poore N. To let passe your fancies proue in generall tithes to be due to the Ministers of the Gospell and not to the Priests of Aaron's order only I. Tithes were due to f Gen. 14. 20. Heb. 7. 4. Melchisedech who was no Priest according to the order of Aaron and therefore not due to the Leuiticall Priests only N. Abraham indeed paid tithes yet not
Ezekiel had done So that it seemeth Matrimonie was consecrated by these Diuine Pens to the opening of this mysterie N. But doe you find no other consecration of Matrimonie then this I. Wee doubt not to say with Antiquitie that Euah being taken out of the side of sleeping Adam was a figure of the Church proceeding from the vertuous side of the Second Adam sleeping in Death God therefore deliuering Euah to the Man did consecrate Marriage to represent this Mysterie N. From the end I passe to the forme which in these words is set downe I pronounce that they be man and wife together In the name of the Father of the Sonne and of the Holy Ghost Amen which differs little from the forme of Baptisme I. What call you the forme of Baptisme properly N. These words I Baptize thee in the name of the Father c. I. What Scripture haue you for this opinion N. Is it not written d Math. 28. 19. Goe teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father c I. But doth Christ command vs to vse these verie words In the name of the Father c N. So all thinke but Papists who say That this forme doth depend vpon the vertue of Tradition I. The plea of Tradition is here impertinent For tell me is not Baptisme a Sacrament Is not a Sacrament an Action Can the forme of an action be words Againe is the forme in those words I Baptize Or in these In the name of the Father To auouch the former is vaine For can the forme of Baptisme bee to Baptize The latter is as vntrue For by the Name of the Father c. is meant the Authoritie of the Trinitie By which is rather intimated an efficient cause then a forme of Baptisme N. Doe not we generally say that the Arrians erre in the forme of Baptisme because they vse thus to baptize Infants In the name of God the Father and of the Sonne a Creature And of the holy Ghost a Creature I baptize thee I. What thinke you of him that baptized an Infant In nomine Patria Filia Spirita Sancta Did hee erre in the forme of Baptisme N. No doubt his errour was in the forme of the words his Latine being not congruous yet the Baptisme was no nullitie neither might be iterated because the substance and forme were still retained I. You see then that this phrase is but meerely popular So that by forme is only meant forme of words that is a forme representatiue not reall For it is neither inward nor outward Not inward For that is the vnion of Christ's bloud with vs Not Outward For that must be Visible not Audible a Deed not a Word But were all this granted will you make euery thing a Sacrament wherein these words are vsed In the name of the Father c If Paul instead of these words I e Acts 16. 18. command thee in the name of Iesus to goe out of her had said I command thee in the name of the Trinitie had he spoken any thing vnfit or vntrue N. Nothing lesse except wee thinke that those which were baptized in the Name of Iesus f Acts 19. 5. Christ were not baptized in the Name of the Trinitie which to maintaine were little lesse then Heresie I. What then Did Saint Paul make dispossession of Deuils a Sacrament because hee vsed words equipollent to these In the name of the Father N. He did only declare by what authoritie he cast out the euill spirit I. So when we say in Matrimonie In the the name of the Father we only shew in what Name and by what Authoritie we pronounce them to be man and wife namely in the Name of that God which conioyned the first couple in the Paradise of Pleasure N. As the causes so the signe namely the ●ing shewes Marriage to be a Sacrament which being a meere humane inuention is to be exploded out of the Church I. What thinke you of the Eare-rings which g Gen. 24. 22. 30. Abrahams seruant gaue to Rebecca N. Hee thought shee should be wife to Isaake and therefore presented her with these symbols of nuptiall amitie But what Can this warrant the prophaning of the Church with a Ciuill Ring I. What conceiue you of the h Rom. 16. 16. holy kisse enioyned by the Apostle N. It was a signe of spirituall amitie and therefore vsed in the Church I. But was the signe also spirituall N. It was indeed drawne from a ciuill custome of the East yet amplified and conuerted to bee an argument of spirituall coniunction I. But yet it was commanded by the Apostle why is it not still practized in the Church N. It was not iudged so decent by reason of the contrarie custome in some parts of Europe I. By this you may vnderstand that the thing was but indifferent and mutable and yet for a time enioyned by Apostolique and Ecclesiasticall Authoritie as were also the i Acts 15. 20. 28 29. Loue Feasts and likewise abstaining from things strangled and from bloud From which last instance we thus argue Abstinencie from things strangled and from bloud were for a time necessarie by reason of the Churches iniunction And yet the same things were then but indifferent and changeable as all men doe confesse Some things indifferent therefore may by the Church bee imposed as necessarie I meane in regard of the externall order not of eternall life N. Yea but the Ring is not a thing indifferent being laden with so many mysticall significations I. That is mysticall which exceedeth naturall capacitie But the significations of the Ring are such as all men by the light of nature may obuiously vnderstand as namely that the gold doth signifie the price and puritie the roundnesse the perpetuitie the poesie the perspicuitie of loue the putting thereof vpon the fourth finger of the left hand doth represent that it is heartie because to that finger there comes an arterie from the heart These significations cannot properly be tearmed mysticall The like is to be said of the ioyning of hands Besides doe you imagine that as many mysticall senses might not be framed of the holy kisse and yet that was no cause why it should be banished out of the Church CHAP. XVIII Of Churching and Buriall N. A Consequent of Matrimonie as you pretend is the Churching and Purification of Women Against the which I thus reason Purification is a thing Iewish And therefore to be abrogated I. If your Antecedent be allayed with a limitation it will agree with the consequent like clay with iron Publique Prayer as it was Iewish and respected the Temple of Salomon doth now vtterly cease Shall we thereupon conclude that all Publique Prayer is to be prohibited In like manner wee say that Iewish Purification is indeed to be abrogated so farre forth as it is Iewish But that is impertinent to our Churching N. The end of Purification is abrogated which was the k For now