actually saw Mr Oats there at that time L. C. J. I 'll tell you what Mr Langhorne use your discretion call whom you will and we will hear them as long as you will but we had Sixteen of them yesterday that did all speak to the same purpose but in answer to these Sixteen Witnesses Mr Oats did produce and he will produce again six or seven Witnesses and one of them a Papist if not a Priest who do swear that Mr Oats was here in April and May I 'll tell you beforehand do you as you will Then one Baille stood up and being a Foreigner an Interpreter was called L. C. J. Where did you see Sir John Warner in April and May Interpreter He says he saw him actually at St Omers L. C. J. What all the Month of May Interpreter Yes he says he conversed with him all the Month of May. L. C. J. And was he there all April and conversed with him then Interpreter Yes he says every day of both Months He says he saw him from the first Sunday in April to the 14th of May and conversed with him L. C. J. Where did Sir John Warner go the 14th of May Interpreter My Lord he says he went for one day only to St Omers and came back again L. C. J. Ask him How he knows this Interpreter He says he was employ'd about a Building by Sir John Warner Then Carpenteir stood up L. C. J. When did you see Mr Oats and where Carpenteir I speak as to Sir Thomas Preston L. C. J. What say you as to Sir Thomas Preston Carpenter I saw him at Liege L. C. J. When Carpenter All the Months of March April May and June he was still there L. C. J. When went he away Carpenter In the time of the Vacancies L. C. J. When is that Carpenter That is from the beginning of August till the end of September L. C. J. When came he again Carpenter When they came to School again and that was in the 2d or 3d of October Mr. Just. Dolben Were you with him all that time Carpenter Yes I was He hath not been in England these three Years L. C. J. How long have you been there Carpenter I have been four Years and I never knew that he was absent but in the time of the Vacancies Mr. Just Pemberton Call another Witness Then stood up another Witness who being a Dutch man and not speaking English an Interpreter was called for him also L. C. J. Well what comes he for Interpreter He says he comes to testifie That Sir John Warner was at Watton in April and he says he saw him there from the 14th of April to the 25th of April L. C. J. And then to what time Interpreter He says he was there till the 16th of May. Mr. Just. Pemberton Ask him where he was the beginning of April Interpreter He says he was Superior there in the House and did Govern L. C. J. Ask him where he was in the latter end of May Interpreter He says he was likewise in the House save only one day when he went to St Omers L. C. J. Then he might have said in short he was there all April and May. Mr. Just. Pemberton Call another Witness Langhorne Call John Joseph Who stood up Mr. Just. Pemberton What do you ask him Mr Langhorne Joseph That which I say is this That Sir Thomas Preston was at Liege in March April May and June in the Year 1678. L. C. J. Did you see him every day in those Months Joseph That I cannot well tell L. C. J. Did you see him every other day Joseph Yes my Lord I believe I did once in two or three days L. C. J. Where was he in July Joseph He was at Liege too He was obliged to be so but in the time of the Vacancies in August he was absent L. C. J. Then you say he was all those Months March April May June and July there Joseph Yes my Lord those four Months I am sure of it L. C. J. What became of him in August when he went during the Vacancies abroad Do you know whither he went Sir Cres Levins Do you know whether he went into England Joseph I never heard that he was in England L. C. J. When did he return again Joseph When they began School and that is in the beginning of October Then another Witness stood up L. C. J. Well what say you 10th Witness I can say that Mr. Oats never stirred out of the Colledge at that time when he says he came to England that is he says he came upon Monday the 25th of April but he did not for that day he went into the Infirmary and he stayed at St. Omers all April and May. L. C. J. And how much longer 10th Witness A great part of June L. C. J. Was he there the 20th of June 10th Witness I am sure he was but how much longer I cannot tell L. C. J. Where was he in February and March 10th Witness He was there too in January he lay out one night and that was at Watton but I am sure he did not come over the 24th of April N S. as he says Mr. Recorder Now he says it is New Stile not Old Stile as he said yesterday Then another Witness stood up L. C. J. Well what do you say 11th Witness Mr. Poole was sick and I can remember when his Nephew went to him into the Infirmary before he went away from the Colledge and he gave him good Counsel as he said and I remember that Mr. Brett was sick at Watton and did come home again on Horseback and I believe he did not stir out and Mr. Poole was at St. Omers I am sure I saw him once in two or three days all April and May. He went by the name of Killingbeck L. C. J. But he does not positively say he saw Sir Robert Brett every day there he says he believes he did 11th Witness He came into the School and gave the Boys Questions to dispute of Mr. Recorder Call the rest of your Witnesses Then another Witness was called and stood up L. C. J. North. When did you see Mr. Oats at St. Omers 12th Witness I saw him almost every other day from the time he came till he went away L. C. J. When was the first time you saw him 12th Witness The beginning of December L. C. J. Did you see him in April there 12th Witness Yes I saw him in April there at an Action L. C. J. And did you see him in May there 12th Witness Yes I can testifie I saw him the first day of May in the Garden L. C. J. How long staid he there 12th Witness Till June L. C. J. How came you to take such precise notice 12th Witness By his very place I could not but take notice if he were missing L. C. J. How can you say you saw him in the Garden the first of May 12th Witness I 'll tell your Lordship why
because there was a great Feast and he play'd at Nine-pins in the Garden and I can tell what they play'd for L. C. J. What say you as to Mr Nevil and Sir Robert Brett's being at St Omers 12th Witness I did not take so much notice of Sir Robert Brett as for Nevil I think I saw him once in three days Mr. Just. Pemberton And there is nothing said of him here Then another Witness stood up L. C. J. When did you see Mr Oats first at St Omers 13th Witness I first saw him in the Month of December L. C. J. Did you see him in April and May 13th Witness Yes my Lord I did L. C. J. Was he there all those Months 13th Witness Yes my Lord he was L. C. J. North. Was he there all the Month of June 13th Witness He went away towards the latter end of June L. C. J. North. Yesterday you said the latter end of July Call another Witness Then another Witness stood up L. C. North. Come you hear the Question Did you see Mr Oats at St Omers in the Month of April 13th Witness Yes my Lord he was there all the Month of April L. C. J. Was he there all the Month of May 13th Witness Yes my Lord he was Mr. Just. Pemberton And a good part of June 13th Witness Yes my Lord. Langhorne What do you say as to Mr. Poole 13th Witness I saw Mr. Poole in the Infirmary the third day of May. L. C. J. North. How came you to take notice of it so well as to remember it that it was the third of May 13th Witness It was a Festival Day And the Feast we kept was the Invention of the Holy Cross We had the Action the day before and some that were in the Infirmary would have it Acted over again to them and we did so My Lord within one or two days after Mr. Hilsly went away I discoursed with Mr. Oats about half an hour he came out within a day or two after out of the Infirmary and I saw him walking in the Gallery And again the 2d of May I saw him walking with one Mr. Burnaby who arrived the day before the first of May and then I saw him the 3d 4th and 5th in this Burnaby's company I saw him again the 26th of May with a Band about his head in order to Confirmation for they always have a Linnen Cloth bound about their head at such a time L. C. J. Call another Who stood up his name was Lydcot L. C. J. What can you say Lydcot All that I can say is this that between the said Month of December 1677. and June 1678. which is the time in Question Mr. Oats was never out of the Colledge above one night when he went to Watton in January and this is certain that from the time that I saw him first till the time he went away for altogether there were not two days that passed away wherein I did not see him except in the Month of March and when he was in the Infirmary the 24th of April but then I heard that he was there L. C. J. Who did tell you so Lydcot The man that keeps that part of the House and coming into my Office after my Recovery out of a Fit of Sickness a week before Christmas or thereabouts I saw Mr. Oats by this Circumstance The Servitors of the House said they were glad to see me and Mr. Oats being in that Place at the Refectory that was assigned to him I asked who he was and they told me such an one but I had heard of his admission a few days before Likewise Mr. Oats was there when Mr. Hilsly came for England which was about the 24th of April by this Circumstance that he was present in the Refectory with some of the Scholars Mr. Richard Burnaby came to the Colledge about a week after Mr. Hilsly went away and Mr. Oats was actually there then and we did very much wonder that he became acquainted with him so quickly after his arrival I say Mr. Oats was actually there when Mr. Killingbeck and Mr. Conquest came for England about the 3d of May by this Circumstance that I had some discourse with Mr. Oats and some others of the Scholars that Mr. Conquest would by no means get out of his Bed betimes that day he was to go away being unwilling to leave the Colledge He was there the 26th of May by this Circumstance that the Bishop dined there that day and Mr. Oats was there Confirmed that day Mr. Oats was there also in June my Lord. L. C. J. Yes he was there in June he does not deny it Mr. Just Pemberton And was he there all May Lydcott Yes my Lord he was and all April except the time he was in the Infirmary which was 3 or 4 days Langhorne What do you say as to Poole and Nevil Lydcott They were there all the whole time in question and they were never absent any competent time to come to England as he says L. C. J. North. We must not allow that you must tell us what time they were there that we may know it Lydcott They were there in March April May June and July L. C. J. But did you see him every day from the beginning Christmas to the time he went away in June Lydcott Yes except the time he was at Watton and when he was in the Infirmary Mr. Recorder But was not Mr. Oats twice in the Infirmary L. C. J. He was I remember there on St. Thomas of Canterbury's Day and I remember he was there in April Sir Cr. Levins I did here you say something of some body that was absent five or six days was it you Lydcott I was sick in the Month of March and I was in the Infirmary till about the 12 or 14 day Sir Cr. Levins And did you see him there all that time Lydcott I excepted that time but I heard his voice once in that time in the next Room to the Infirmary where I was by this Circumstance He used to come to a Table by himself and it was near the Door and Nevil and Poole were there as I said before Mr. Recorder He speaks much more to the purpose to day Mr. Langhorne than he did yesterday L. C. J. North. And much louder Langhorne I hope your Lordship will take notice that he speaks likewise of the Residence of Mr. Poole Sir Robert Brett and Mr. Nevil L. C. J. Yes I do Call another Witness Who stood up and being a Foreigner his Evidence was likewise Interpreted L. C. J. Ask him what he says Interpreter He says he saw Mr. Oats he was there and he remembers it till about the 25 of June L. C. J. Where did he see him Interpreter He says it was either in the House or in the Garden Lord Chief Just North. When was that that he was in the Infirmary Interpreter He says he was in the Infirmary towards the latter end of December or beginning
he was here in the latter end of April and beginning of May which does contradict all their Testimony who does say he was abroad all along from December to June and that they saw him every other Day 'T is true if we were certain that what these Young-men spake were indeed so as they say it is impossible for Mr. Oats's Testimony to be believed If I were satisfyed that really and truly Mr. Oats was not here but was Six Months together there and that he hath invented this Story and made this himself I could no longer confide in the Man nor find Mr. Langhorn Guilty Yet is not the Time really the substance of the thing though he hath made it so now because the Consult was the Twenty Fourth of April which he was present and he did go he saies to Mr. Langhorn within a Day or two after to acquaint him with the resolution of it To this end hath Mr. Oats produced Seven or Eight Witnesses that saw him as they swear He hath produced a Minister that says he saw him in a Disguise but having known him before recollected him to be the Man He hath produced a VVoman that agrees with that Story for she says that he came and talk'd with her about it and told her then that he had seen Mr. Oats the Day before and gives you a token why it was about that time of the Year Now if this be not a new matter and New found out this VVoman if she swears true does justify the other in what he did say a Year ago when they could never Imagine that any great weight and moment should be laid upon that Accident of his seeing Oats in the Street He hath produced to you the Coach-man of Sir Richard Barker that says he knew him well when he came to his Masters House There he call'd him by his name That asking for Dr. Tongue but not finding him within he went away presently That he was in Disguise That they acquainted their Master with it as soon as he came Home and their Master says that so they did And the person that then lived in the House and now is Dead said to the Maid Yonder is Mr. Oats I think he is either Turned Quaker or Priest what a kind of Habit is he got into No said the Maid he can't be a Quaker because he wears a Perriwigg but she says he named him to her Oats and that this is the man she knew him since 'T is the same man that the Young-man spoke to her about He hath produced farther one of their own Religion one that is a Papist still and he says he saw him twice at Mr. Charles Howard's in Arundel House There was indeed some perplexity they would have put upon it by reason of Mr. Howards Son being dead a year before but the VVitness saies he did not know the Son A Papist he confesses himself expresly to be if not a Priest and I would not ask him the Question because 't is not fair to make him accuse himself but he does swear expresly he saw Mr. Oats at Mr. Charles Howards in April or May which contradicts all their VVitnesses He also produces a Schoolmaster that tells that he dined with him the beginning of May and I remember it says he very well for we dined by the fire-side which gave me occasion to wonder at it in May and remember it He says moreover that he stayd Three or Four hours with him and tall'd of all his Travels in Spain Now must all these people be down-right Perjured it can be no mistake but they are all falsly forsworn if there be not Truth in it And when here are Seven or Eight Witnesses positively swearing against the affirmation of so many others we leave the credit of both sides to you who are the Judges of the Fact There is indeed and I will Repeat it for you for I would not miss any thing as near as I can that would make for the Prisoners advantage there is a proof concerning Sir John Warner and Preston and Pool that they were there at the time and there hath been no answer given to it But I say still t is the same thing for if you do not believe those VVitnesses to speak true that affirm that Oates was there all the time but rather believe that he was here by Seven or Eight people that Testify it I say if you cannot believe he was there you will never change your mind for one Circumstance whether he came over with Sir John Warner and others or not for it is but a Circumstance Langhorn They are not the same VVitnesses Lord C. J. 'T is true they are not You have Four or Five VVitnesses that speak apart but two of them do say that they knew Oats also was there at the same time that they speake that Sir John VVarner was at home Langhorn Not those two of Leige my Lord about Sir Thomas Preston Lord C. J. No they do not for I leave it to you of the Jury upon the whole matter there is little more to be said by me If so be Credit is to be given to these VVitnesses of Oats more than to the others then you must find him Guilty and the rather because I do a little suspect they come over instructed to say what they do You find they apply themselves to the thing they came for and not only the Gardiner but another could tell you which hath a very great Influence upon me as to their Credit that the months of April and May were the months in question and they were not to be examined any farther So that it looks as if these Young men were sent of an Errand and though you do not know them Mr. Langorn and are Innocent as to any tampering with them yet I am afraid they are come to serve the Catholick Cause as they call it For they are very well taught and they keep to those months of April and May of all the months in the Year Then they bring the VVoman of the White-Horse-Tavern where the Consult of the twenty fourth of April was and what is the use they would make of her why it is that Mr. Oats should make a story of fifty Fathers being in her Tavern at one time but he insists now there was a matter of twenty when there was not a Room in her House that would hold Ten But you hear how she was Answered from Testimony rising up in the Court of themselves that were accquainted with her House and know that Forty people may dine in two of her Rooms And the Kings Counsel observed well how Chance it self hath put to silence this Evidence So that when matters are alledged to be done at home there is not so great a difficulty as in proving things that are done abroad I leave it to you Sirs Here is a Gentleman that stands at the Bar upon his Life on the one Hand but if Mr. Oates say true all
matter done in Flanders as any thing could be in the world but it happening to be near home it hath the ill fortune to meet with a very sudden Answer which is a manifest proof how they stretch to help themselves and in my opinion this contradiction overthrows all their Evidence Gentlemen we will call out Witnesses and prove it as plainly as any thing can be in the world that Mr. Oats was here at that time First swear Will. Walker which was done Lord Ch. Just Do you know Mr. Oats Mr. Walker Yes Sir I have known him seven or eight years Lord Ch. Just When did you see him in England last year Mr. Walker I saw him the latter end of March 1678. or towards the middle of April following I saw him then in a disguise insomuch as that I knowing what he was and what he had been I could not a great while recollect the face of the man and it was a great trouble to me that having known him so many years I should not then know him I went home but could not recollect my self that night but before I rose again the next morning I did recollect my self that it was Titus Oats and I presently turned my self out of my bed and went to a Gentlewoman whose name I did not then well know to inquire of her about it After the Salutation said I How does Mr. Oats said she knocking her hand upon the Counter He is an undone man Why what is the matter said I He is turned said she to the Church of Rome Do you know where he is said I No said she but he is lurking up and down the Town and only dares appear in the evenings Well then said I I saw him later than you did for I saw him between St. Martins-lane and Leicester house yesterday but he was in a disguise and I told her what habit he was in Lord Ch. Just What time was that Mr. Walker It was about ten of the clock in the morning Lord Ch. Just But what time of the year was it Mr Walker It was the latter end of March or the middle of April Mr. Just Pemberton It was before the end of April Mr. Walker Ay ay my Lord. L. C. J. And that contradicts all your Witnesses for they say that he was there all March and all April and all May nay from December to June Langhorn He hath said the latter end of March or the middle of April I would have him be as certain as he can Lord Ch. Just He cannot be certain for those things in point of time you know and all mankind must agree that a thing done a year ago that was of no greater importance at that time cannot so easily be remembred or that he should take such special notice of the critical day What man in the world does remember or take notice so as to charge himself in what week or what month such an accidental thing as this happened But to satisfie Mr. Langhorn I ask you Can you speak any more particularly than you have done Mr. Walker Because I would not be mistaken or do any one any wrong I do rather take an uncertain time than a certain but I do think it was in the month of April and towards the middle of the month that is all I can say Langhorn But how is he sure since he is so uncertain in his memory that this was 1678 and not 1677 Mr. Walker Because my Lord it was but a little more than a year since and I am able to judge of the year as well as another Lord Ch. Just Do you remember what you went about Mr. Walker I was wont about that time of year to receive money of my Lord Thomas Howard and upon that Errand I came to Town then Lord Ch. Just But are you sure it was Mr. Oats that you saw Mr. Walker Yes my Lord for according to my apprehension I did know the face when I first saw it but I could not recollect who it was till I had refreshed my memory and the next morning I did so and then concluded it was he Mr. Just Dolben How came you hither Mr. Walker I was brought here for a Witness Mr. Just Dolben Did you discover this to Mr. Oats or did Mr. Oats first come to you to put you in mind of it Mr. Walker I had discoursed with some persons about it a while after the Plot was discovered and so I suppose it came by accident to him Then Mrs. Ives was sworn and stood up Lord Ch. Just Well Mistress what say you Mrs. Ives This is the Gentleman that told me this business Lord Ch. Just What did he tell you Mrs. Ives He asked me when I saw Titus Oats I told him I had not seen him a long time that he was gone beyond Sea he asked me if I never saw nor heard from him since I told him No but of late some of his friends had told me that he was about the Town and that they had seen him but they did not know the place where he lodged Then said he I have seen him since you for I was yesterday going into Leicester fields and going along I saw him for he was in coloured Cloaths and very much altered from what he had been Lord Ch. Just When was this How long was this ago Mrs. Ives It was about the middle of April was twelve-month and I remember it by a very good token for his Father Mr. Oats came then to my house to see me and that is the first month that our new thin Cheeses come in and I did then ask him if he would not come in and eat some new thin Cheese and when he was come in and sate down eating of Cheese and drinking a draught of drink I was a saying to him Pray Sir when did you see your Son Said he I have not seen him of late I heard from him a little while ago but I have not seen him Then said I can tell you news of him Here was such a Gentleman in my Shop that says he met him in Leicester fields but in a disguise and the told me what habit he was in Sir Cr. Levins Set up Butler Who was sworn Lord Ch. Just How long have you known Mr. Oates Butler I have known him two or three years before he went to Sea Lord Ch. Just When did you see him last year Butler When he came back he came to my Master house the beginning of May last was twelve month L. C. J. Who is your Master Butler Sir Rich. Barker my Lord. Lord Ch. Just What did he come there for Butler He came to enquire for Doctor Tongue L. C. J. Did you know him Butler Yes I did L. C. J. Are you sure that 's he Butler This is the Gentleman Lord Ch. Just And what said he Butler I was in the Gate about my Coach and he comes in and asked me if Dr. Tongue was within I told him no at present
My Lord if the 26th of November fell upon a Monday then it was on the 26th day that I set out for Dover in the Coach as near as I can remember and I got to St. Omers a Friday morning following Langhorn A Friday after you say you got to St. Omers Dr. Oates About that time Langhorn How long did you stay there Dr. Oates Till April following I stay'd Langhorn Without any moving from thence Dr. Oates Onely went to Paris and after that a night or two at Watton and then came away in April My Lord I desire if your Lordship please that Mr. Langhorn may ask the Court and the Court ask me for I know the Court will be so kind as to ask me such Questions as are reasonable and proper for me to answer Mr. Just Atkins That indeed is the regular way for Prisoners should not ask the Question but the Court. Langhorn Very well I shall observe the Method if your Lordship please I desire to know what time in April he came back for England Dr. Oates I came about the middle of April or latter end I will not be so positive in that and I was in England under 20 days Langhorn Can you tell what day you came into England Dr. Oates No I cannot exactly but I came in April the middle or the latter end Langhorn I desire to know who came with him Dr. Oates My Lord there came a matter of 9 or 10 of us in all Lord Ch. Just Name them Dr. Oates There was Father Williams and Father March the Rector of Liege and Sir John Warner Langhorn What is the Rector of Liege's name Dr. Oates Warren I think I cannot tell names so exactly Langhorn Go on Sir pray Dr. Oates I cannot name any more Langhorn You have named them all in the Records of the Lords House Dr. Oates T is like I have I refer you to that Langhorn Did Sir Thomas Preston come over with you Dr. Oates Yes he did Langhorn Did Pool come over with you Dr. Oates Yes Lord Ch. Just Look you Mr. Langhorn we had all this matter spoken of yesterday and there were Witnesses that prove that Sir Jeremy Warner and Sir Thomas Preston were there Langhorn I humbly conceive that was upon an Issue tried in another County by another Jury and therefore I hope I do not amiss in urging what I can say for my self to this Jury Lord Ch. Just You are not debarred I only told you of it Was Sir Robert Bret there Dr. Oates Yes I think he was I am not confident of that My Lord I own what Mr. Langhorn can bring to the Court upon Record Langhorn I only ask it because he says so in the House of Lords Dr. Oates If you can shew the Record of what I said there do Langhorn I do not desire him to name them now but to know whether he does now affirm the truth of what he Swore in the House of Lords Lord Ch. Just If you can produce as you may if you have been diligent a Copy of the Record in the House of Lord and have it Sworn to be a true Copy of the Records it will be Evidence for you and shall be read but to put him to remember a Record without Book must not be it would be hard for him to undertake that Langhorn I desire to know how he came from Dover whether in a Coach or on Horseback to London Dr. Oates Indeed the Question is so sudden that I cannot be positive but as near as I remember I came by Coach Langhorn I will give you my reason why I ask this because he hath formerly upon a Trial in the Kings-Bench affirmed he came by Coach in the company of Mr. Hilsley Dr. Oates No I did never say so but I came over in the Pacquet Boat in the company of Mr. Hilsley but when we were come over Mr. Hilsley went out of the way from us Langhorn I desire to know where he lodged when he came to Town Lord Ch. Just Where did you lodge the first night Dr. Oates I did lie at Mr. Grove's house when I came to London in April Lord Ch. Just But the first night when you came from Dover when you came into London in April Dr. Oates My Lord I cannot say I lay there the first night but my lodging was provided for me there Lord Ch. Just You are to Answer as well as you can if you cannot remember it say so Do you say the first absolutely or not Dr. Oates My Lord I cannot remember the first night but I lay several nights at Mr. Grove's Langhorn Then I ask whether he did generally lie there during his stay Dr. Oates I did lie there some nights Lord Ch. Just How many times did you lie there Dr. Oates I believe three or four nights I won't be positive as to the Number Langhorn What day was the Consult Dr. Oates It was the 24th of April Langhorn What day did you acquaint me with it Dr. Oates A day or 2 after Langhorn When did he return back to St. Omers Lord Ch. Just When did you go back about what time Dr. Oates My Lord I think it was a week in May I cannot be positive but I think that was the outside Lord Ch. Just They said yesterday you affirmed you stay'd but 6 days Dr. Oates I do not say so but I say under 20. Mr. Just Dolben Come have you any thing else to ask him Langhorn Those Letters that he speak of I desire to know whether he saw me write them Lord Ch. Just Those Letters you speak of did you see him write them Dr. Oates I did not see him write them but I am sure they were his Letters because I know his hand Lord Ch. Just How did you come to know his hand since you did not see him write them Dr. Oates I saw the Letter whereby he ordered money to be paid 5 l. to his Son And I saw the money paid to his Son by that Order Langhorn Do you know that Le Cheese and Anderton writ to me Dr. Oates I do not say that they writ to him but he had Letters Subscribed by their Names and they were said by him to come from them and they were to be communicated to the Priests and Jesuits and he delivered them to me to that end Langhorn When you returned to St. Omers how long did you stay there Dr. Oates Till 23d June new Stile which is the 13th old Stile Langhorn I remember he professed himself a Roman Catholick I see he is a Minister I desire to know of him when he left the Protestant Religion and became a Convert as he called himself call it what you will when he left being a Protestant and became a Papist that is it I mean Dr. Oates He does it for nothing but to quarrel Lord Ch. Just When did you leave the Church of England Dr. Oates My Lord if it be the pleasure of the Bench to ask me
Ch. Just Where did you see him then Mr. Clay I saw him at Mr. Howard's my Lord. L. Ch. Just What Howard one of my Lord of Norfolk's Brothers Mr. Clay Yes my Lord. L. Ch. Just What is his Christian Name Mr. Clay His Name is Mr. Charles Howard my Lord. L. Ch. Just Where was it Mr. Clay In his House L. Ch. Just Where was his House Mr. Clay It was part of Arundel House 't is now made a new Street L. Ch. Just Did you speak with him there Mr. Clay Yes we saluted one another and he said Your Servant Sir I am sure saw him there L. Ch. Just How often did you see him in that House Mr. Clay Twice L. Ch. Just In April and May Mr. Clay Yes in April and in the beginning of May. Langhorn I ask you if you do remember any Circumstance of it to bring this to your Memory L. Ch. Just By what Token do you remember it that it was April and May Mr. Clay By this Token that Mr. Charles Howard told me he was one that was come from beyond the Seas from St. Omers and said he he hath some thoughts of being a Jesuite but I thin I shall divert him from that L. Ch. Just How do you know that it was that Month Mr. Clay It was in the latter end of April and beginning of May. Mr. Just Dolben Are you sure it was last year Mr. Clay Yes I am it was in the year 1678. Langhorn Was it at Dinner or no Mr. Clay No no. Langhorn Did he dine there that day Mr. Clay I did not see him at Dinner but I saw him here twice L. Ch. Just Are you a Roman Catholick Mr. Clay Yes I am of the Church of Rome but not of the Court of Rome L. Ch. Just That is no new distinction L. Ch. Just North. No they have the Court of Rome distinct from the Church and particular Favourites of it as other Priâ—â—â—s hâ—ve and there are those that profess themselves of that Religion that won't acknowledge the exorbitant Power that the Pope claims Langhorn Will your Lordship please to ask him whether he does remember that Mr. Oates did at that time play with Mr. Howard's Son and instruct him and talk to him about his Learning and put Questions to him L. Ch. Just Did he talk or put any Questions to Mr. Howard's Son about learning his Book Mr. Clay Not any thing that I heard Langhorn Was Mr. Howard's Son there Mr. Clay No not in the Room as I think I cannot tell certainly my memory is frail Then Mr. Smith was called and sworn L. Ch. Just. How long have you known Dr. Oates Mr. Smith I knew him before the Fire he was my Scholar at the School where I was Usher Mr. Just Pemberton What time did you see him last year Mr. Smith The beginning of May. Mr. Just Pemberton How do you know that Mr. Smith He came to see me and dined with me L. Ch. Just Where Mr. Smith At Islington at my house there L. Ch. Just How long was he with you Mr. Smith Three or four hours L. Ch. Just VVhat time was it Mr. Smith It was as I take it the in Monday in May and I give this reason for my remembrance why it was in May because we dined by the Fire side being a little cold of which we took particular notice L. Ch. Just And you wondered that you should dine by the Fire side in May. Langhorn VVas it on a Monday in May Mr. Smith It was on the first Monday in May to the best of my remembrance L. Ch. Just Was there none of the Family there besides Mr. Smith Yes there was my Wife there L. Ch. Just Why did you not bring her to testifie the same Dr. Oates He cannot find his Wife L. Ch. Just North. How long do you say was he with you Dr. Oates Three or four hours L. Ch. Just What did you talk of Mr. Smith VVe talked about his Travels about his Journey into Spain and to Valledolid and Sallamanca Mr. Just Pemberton VVas he in a Priest's Habit or in another Habit Mr. Smith My Lord he was in a Cinamon-coloured Suit trim'd â—â—â—th green Ribbons Sir Cr. Levins We have done with our Evidence my Lord. L. Ch. Just Now Mr. Langhorn the King's Council have done with their Witnesses Langh Pray call Mr. Charles Howard and his wife L. Ch. Just I do not think Mr. Charles Howard will appear L. Ch. Just North. I believe he does not think it safe to come here we know upon what account But upon calling after a while he did appear and stood up L. Ch. Just Well what have you to say to Mr. Howard Langhorn The Question that I would ask him is this it hath been affirmed here by Mr. Clay that old Centleman that about the end of April or beginning of May last was a Twelve month he did meet Mr. Oates at Mr. Howard's House I would know the truth of it L. Ch. Just Mr. Howard you have heard the Question do you know Mr. Oates Mr. Howard Yes my Lord very well L. Ch. Just How long have you known him Mr. Howard Above two years L. Ch. Just When was he at your house Mr. Howard My Lord he hath been at Arundel house about two years ago and several times since L. Ch. Just Was he there about a year ago Mr. Howard Thereabouts he was L. Ch. Just Do you think he was there about May was Twelve-month Mr. Howard My Lord after July I remember he was there L. Ch. Just Was he there in May Mr. Howard No my Lord not to my Remembrance Langhorn Pray Sir when did your Son dye Mr. Howard The Fifth of May was two year 1677. L. Ch. Just Why how does that appear to be any thing in this case he did not say that Mr. Howara's Son was there Langhorn He said he was in the House but he could not tell whether he was in the Room or no. L. Ch. Just You asked him whether he talked any Lattin or asked him any Questions and he says he cannot tell whether the Son were there in the Room or no. L. Ch. Just. North. He says About two year ago I remember he was at my house and about a year ago which contradicts all your Witnesses Langhorn No he says About two year ago I remember he was there and about a Twelve month ago after July but he cannot remember wether he was here in April and May was a Twelve-month Mr. Howard Mr. Oates was in my Lodging in April 1677 and then my Child was alive and dined together with him and Mr. Clay L. Ch. Just That is two years ago Mr. Howard Yes my Lord two years ago Mr. Oates was there with Mr. Clay but not since L. Ch. Just Call Mr. Clay again to confront him in that Dr. Oates I did not know Mr. Clay two years ago L. Ch. Just You are mistaken I believe for Mr. Clay does pretend that he did but
just begin to know Mr. Oates in April was a Twelve-month and so Oates swears too Mr. Just Pemberton And he say he knows nothing whether you had a Child dyed or no. L. Ch. Just When was the time that you first knew Mr. Oates Mr. Clay The latter end of April last year L. Ch. Just Did you ever know him before that time Mr. Clay I never did L. Ch. Just Do you remember that ever you dined with him Mr. Clay I do not remember the day exactly and I do not remember that e're I dined with him Mr. Just. Pemberton But he is positive that he did not know him but a year ago L. Ch. Just Do you remember whether Mr. Howard's Son was alive Mr. Clay He had a Son alive at that time Dr. Oates He had one Son indeed that dyed a year before Mr. Clay and I met there Mr. Howard I speak of my eldest Son who dyed two years ago Mr. Clay I never knew him L. Ch. Just Well 't is plain there was a mistake in it he spoke of a Son that was then and is now alive and you speak of your eldest Son that dyed two years ago Have you any more Witnesses Mr. Langhorn Langhorn No my Lord I have no more witnesses L. Ch. Just Well would you say any thing If you would say what you have a mind to say Langhorn My Lord I am charged here by two Witnesses the first is Mr. Oates If I can prove any one point in answer to that which he hath given in Evidence not to be true then I conceive my Lord he ought to be set aside And I think it hath been clearly proved That whereas he said Sir Tho. Preston came over with him in April it hath been clearly proved he was then at Leigeâ— and whereas he hath affirmed Sir John Warner Mr. Poole and two or three more that were at St. Omers came over with him I have proved That not to be true beyond any contradiction Then as the Witnesses about his ovvn not coming over in April Mr. Hilsly says he came not over vvith him in the Pacquet-Boat and the other says that he vvas sick in the Infirmary after Mr. Hilsly came avvay These points being thus proved I think there can be no credit given to what he says for I can say and I know it to be truth that from November 1677 to this very day I never savv him I have been a close Prisoner so long and have had but one weeks time to provide and therefore must be fain to take such Information as my Friends and Relations could pick up to answer what he hath said in his Narratives supposing he would have said the same here therefore I am not able to make any better defence L. Ch. Just Did you never know Mr. Oates Langhorn I have seen him once or twice L. Ch. Just. When was that Langhorn In Michaelmas Term 1677. L. Ch. Just Upon what occasion Langhorn He brought me a Letter from one of my Sons my younger Son in Spain and then he told me he was going to St. Omers He said he could not and from that day I never saw him till I saw him in the Court I hope truly I have well proved that he was not here in England when he says he was but that I must leave to the Jury But surely these Boys cannot be supposed to have any design or to be bribed by any Reward for I never saw the Face of any of them till now L. Ch. Just North. They are all Papists and speak in a General Cause Langhorn If that be an Objection against them I think it is hard if they are not to be believed because they are Papists and Friends then the other on the contrary are not to be believed because they are Enemies I think it is clear that he did not lodge at Grove's house and I think it is clear that he did not come over in the Pacquet-Boat with Mr. Hilsly and that Sir Tho. Preston did not come over with him nor Warner nor Poole and if any of these points be clear for me I think his Testimony ought to be set aside Now as to what Bedloe says in truth it is impossible for me to examine any Witnesses and that I think will be your Lordship's Opinion it will not seem probable that one that was in my way of practice should become a Clerk to Register Letters and to keep Accounts of any particular Religious Order as he makes me to do or if I were that I should admit Mr. Bedloe to be privy to those Accounts but that I must leave to the Court my Lord 't is impossible to prove a Negative Mr. Bedloe is a person that I have no acquaintance with truly I do not know that ever I saw him before this time in all my life though it is possible I may have seen him but I do not knovv that ever I did Now that I should admit such a person to such a privacy in Accounts of this nature if I were guilty of them seems very improbable but yet as I said it is impossible to prove a Negative If I had known what he would have charged upon me before perhaps I might have made a better defence and for those Witnesses that I have had they were prepared by such Friends as thought they would be useful for me These men have had time to get their Witnesses together I never saw one of mine till they came into the Court I hope my Lord I shall find no disadvantage in my condemned me meerly for that I disclaim all Principles of disloyalty and I do assure your Lordship I do believe it is Damnation to any one that shall go about to kill the King or deprive him of his Government I shall leave the rest to your Lordship and the Jury The Lord Chief Justices Directions to the Jury against Mr. Langhorne Lord Chief Just Look you Gentlemen You have had an Accompt in the first Part of the Evidence in general That there was a general Designe of bringing in Propery and in order to that as the best and quickest Means to Accomplish it to destroy the King And without doubt they were in the right for that Matter To destroy the King was the most effectual Course to introduce Popery they could take Whether they would do it or no is not now any Question but how much Mr. Langhorn the Prisoner at the Barr is concerned in it and that depends upon the Testimony of Witnesses The Testimony that Mr. Oats gives against him amounts but to thus much I cannot affirm sayes he that Mr. Langhorne was at the Consult on the Twenty-Fourth of April at the White-Horse-Tavern where they signed the Agreement to Destroy the King But this I can say That the next Day or within a Day or two I went by Order from the Fathers Whitebread and Harcourt to Langhorne 's Chamber and acquainted him with what they had Argeed upon And he swears that