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A76258 Certamen religiosum or, a conference between His late Majestie Charles King of England, and Henry late Marquess and Earl of Worcester, concerning religion; at His Majesties being at Raglan Castle, 1646. Wherein the maine differences (now in controversie) between the Papists and the Protestants is no lesse briefly then accuratly discusss'd and bandied. Now published for the worlds satisfaction of His Majesties constant affection to the Protestant religion. By Tho: Baylie Doctor in Divinity and Sub-Deane of Wels. Bayly, Thomas, d. 1657?; Charles I, King of England, 1600-1649.; Worcester, Henry Somerset, Marquis of, 1577-1646. 1649 (1649) Wing B1506; Thomason E1355_1; ESTC R209153 85,962 251

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should be so much offended at any such thing for bread and wine do signifie Christ crucified I appeale to common reason if a dead body doth not represent a passion as nuch as if we saw the bloud lie by it If you grant the Churches Power in other matters and rest satisfie therein why do you boggle at this especially when any Priest where wine is to be had if you desire it he will give it you But if upon every mans call the Church should fall to reforming upon every seeming fault which may be but supposed to be found the people would never stop untill they had made such a through Reformation in all parts as they have done in the greatest part of Germany where there is not a man to preach or hear the Gospel to eat the bread or drink the wine you never pickt so mony holes in our Coates as this licentiousness hath done in yours For our seven Sacraments she that called the Articles of our Faith 12 the Beatitudes 8 the Graces 3 the Virtues 4 called these 7 might have called them 17 if she had thought it meet A Sacrament is nothing else but what is done with a holy mind and why Sacrament either in Name or Number should be confind to Christs onely Institution I see no cause for it If I can prove that God did institute such a thing in Paradise as he did marriage shall not I call that a Sacrament as well as what was instituted by Christ when he was upon the Earth If Christ institutes the Order of giving receiving the holy Ghost shall not I call this the Sacrament of Orders If Christ injoyns us all repentance shall we not say repentance is a Sacrament If Christ blesseth little children and saith Suffer them to come unto me and forbid them not shall we not say that such Confirmation is a Sacrament Truly I do not understand their meaning They have taken away five which five either by God or Christ or the holy Ghost who are all one were instituted and yet they say they are not Sacraments because they were not instituted by Christ And the two that are left viz. baptisme and the Lords Supper for the first you hold it necessary to Salvation and for the second you do not admit the reall presence so that of the two remaining you have taken away the necessitie of the one and the reality of the other so fare well all Now for Purgatory I do believe we have as good ground for it out of this place of Scripture viz. He shall be purged yet so as if it were by fire as you can prove a Hell out of this place of Scripture He shall be cast into utter darkness and into the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone where shall be weeping and knatching of teeth Neither can you make more exceptions to our inference out of this place of Scripture to prove Purgatory then the Atheist if wits may be permitted to roame in such things as these once setled and believed generally will find ground enough to quarrell at your burning lake and the vaine Philosopher Contradictions enough in the description of the effects of those hellish Torments viz. weeping and knashing of teeth the one having its procedure from heat the other from cold which are meer Contradictions and therefore fabulous take heed we do not take away Hell in removing of Purgatory You see not how your laughing at Purgatory hath caused such laughing at Hell and Devils untill at last you shall see them bid the Heavens come down and plucke the Almightie out of his Throne If a Text of Scripture with the Churches Exposition be not sufficient for a man to rest both his Science Conscience upon I know not where it will find a resting place it may shoot at Random but never take so right an ayme and for the silver hooke you talk'd of I do not justifie the abuse of any I know there is a great difference between the Court of Rome and the Church of Rome and if these Errours were in the Church it self yet the tares must not be hastily pluckt out of the field of the Church least the wheat be pluckt up with it Now for our praying to Saints there is no body that prayes to any Saints otherwise then as we on earth desire the benefit of one anothers prayers We do not believe that they can help us of themselves or that they have power to forgive sin but we believe that they are nearer to God his favour more dear unto him and therefore we believe that he will hear them with or for us sooner then he will hear us when we pray upon our own account as we desire the prayers of some good and holy man whom we believe to be so hoping it will be a benefit unto us all that can be said against it is that they do not hear us I will not trouble Your Majestie with the Schoolmens Speculum Creatoris but I shall desire to be plaine when there is joy in heaven over every sinner that repenteth do you think that the Saints which are there are ignorant of the occasion of that joy or do they rejoyce at they know not what If the Saints in heaven do crie how long Lord how long holy and just dost thou not avenge our bloud upon them which dwell upon the earth if they know that their bloud is not yet avenged do they not know when a sinner is converted and if they know the time of conversion do they not know the time of prayer If Abraham knew that there were such men as Moses and the Prophets who was dead so many hundreds of years before their time can we say that they are ignorant think ye that those ministring Angels who are called Intelligencers give them no intelligences or that they gather nothing of intelligence by looking him in the face who is the fullness of knowledge and to all these the practise and opinion of so Catholick a Church God can onely forgive sins Christ can onely mediat but Saints whether in heaven or on the earth may intercede for one another Lastly for our worshipping of Images confounded be all they that worshipped them for me God is onely worthy to be worshipped but if I kneel before the Picture of my Saviour I worship him kneeling before his Picture the worship is in the heart and not in the knee and where the true God is in the intention there can be no idolatrie O Sir Christian Religion is not a Protestation but a Gospel it would better consist with unity then opposition we hold it a peece of popery to knocke our own breasts with the fists of constitution whilst we hold it most Evangelicall to knocke at our neighbours with a Counstables staff a pious care in a mother Church labours to educate her own daughter and having fed her at her own breasts all the gratitude she returns her mother is to call her whore