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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A10973 Two dialogues, or conferences (about an old question lately renued, and by the schismaticall company, both by printed pamphlets, and otherwise to the disturbance of the Churches quiet, and of peaceable minds, very hotly pursued.) Concerning kneeling in the very act of receiuing the sacramental bread and wine, in the Supper of the Lord The former betweene two ministers of the word, the one refractarie, and depriued; the other not so. The latter betweene an humorous schismatike and a setled professor. Rogers, Thomas, d. 1616. 1608 (1608) STC 21241; ESTC S116109 75,976 132

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of Idolaters Baalites or Hypocrites and very vncharitably of your brethren as of men-pleasers Temporizers and I know not what For which I doubt not but your owne conscience doth chide you or will one time or other If to the latter end know you c. you shall neuer proue either vs that kneele to bee Time-seruers Men-pleasers and idolaters or those that will not stoope or bowe their knees no not at the Lords table and Communion to be the purest and best worshippers of God Haue you any more to say S. Yes Mark what Naaman said vnto the Prophet Herein the Lord be mercifull vnto me saith he that when my Master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there and leaneth on my hand and I bow my selfe in the house of Rimmon when I doe bow downe I say in the house of Rimmon the Lord be mercifull vnto thy seruant in this point 2. Kin. 5. 8. R. What likenes betweene the house of Rimmon and our Churches betweene the idol Rimmon and the holy Communion betweene Naamans bowing vnto or before an idoll and our bending the knee at the Lords table because the one was cursed and vnlawfull must needs the other be so S. When Cornelius fell downe at Peters feete and worshipped him accepted Peter of that adoration or rather did he not reproue Cornelius for so doing Acts 10. 25. 26. R. Cornelius shewed too much reuerence and farre passing decent order as though Peter had bin a God When we giue such adoration vnto the bread and wine blame vs for committing idolatrie as Peter did Cornelius you should proue that in worshipping God when wee kneele at the Lords table wee doe that which is vnlawfull and to that ende you beate your braines and trie your wits but to no purpose And though you see it a very difficult thing yea vnpossible for you to effect and know besides that our Church hath protested and published that the Sacrament of the Lordes supper is not by Christs institution to bee worshipped and neither directly nor indirectly imboldeneth any Communicant in Idolatrie or bread-worshippe but in adoring the Maker and Redeemer of vs all yet no remedie in kneeling wee are either Idolaters Baalites or Temporizing Naamites in your iudgement O hard and heauie censure Repent repent and change your vncharitable conceits THE SEVENTH OBIECTION S. IT is a breach of the second commandement R. Whither now No maruel that you liken vs to Idolaters Baalites Hypocrites when you dare affirme our kneeling to be a breach of the second commandement M. Caluin hauing perused our Leiturgie vsed in K. Edwards daies saith that he therin spied multas tolerabiles ineptias many tollerable imperfections but none intollerable impiety at all M. Cartwright that pried into that booke for all aduantages to bring it into dislike doth ingenuously confesse how the grosse errors and manifest impieties are taken away And M. Gifford writing against Barrow and Greenwood saith directly I stand to iustifie by the word of God that indeed there is neither idolatry heresie nor blasphemie in the same booke All these learned men against whom I know you will not accept though I could wish they had thought better of our Church do shew that what you here say is slanderous and vntrue But why is it a breach of the second commandement S. In that kneeling is a worshipping of God at or before a creature namely bread and wine R. May we not worship God at or before a creature Then may we not in our priuate houses with our familie nor in Gods house with our euen Christians worship God any way but it is a breach of the second commandement For who can any where or at any time worship God but it is either at or before some creature Had you said it had beene a breach of the second commandement to worship God at or before an idoll I had gone with you For it is a worshipping of the true God after a wicked and false manner but saying it is a breach of the second commandement to worship God at or before a creature without exception of any who can ioyne with you that hath his right wits S. It is a breach of the second commandement not only to worship an idoll but also God at or before any thing not appointed by himselfe for such an vse R. Then is it no breach of the second commandement to worship God at the participation of bread and wine at the holy Communion For he hath appointed them for such an vse for who can receiue them or how can they be receiued otherwise If what you say heere be true as it is most false you also that do sit when ye do participate of that heauenly repast as well as we that kneele are violaters of the second commandement For yee euen in sitting worship God as well as we in receiuing of the Sacrament and that before bread and wine too which are apppointed of God for such an vse And he eateth and drinketh vnworthily whether he kneele or sit who at the Lords table and when he receiueth bread and wine adoreth not God Ioshua fell downe prostrate before the Arke of God the Shunamite at the Prophet Elisha his feete the Priests and people of Israel bowed themselues and fell downe on their faces to the earth vpon the pauement and worshipped and praised the Lord and yet was neither Ioshua nor the Shunamite nor those holy Priests and people hitherto charged in these their actions to haue broken the second commandement of the Decalogue Cast your eyes I pray you vpon the Communion booke marke not only what euery one at the receiuing of the sacrament doth but what the Minister also at the deliuery of the bread wine saith and you shall find which you know well enough that it well beseemeth all Communicants to kneele at the hearing and consideration of such holy and heauenly wordes S. That prayer is not according to Christs institution R. Proue that our controuersie shal be quickly at an end S. Christ prayed onely in the consecration of bread and wine and not in the deliuerie of them R. Though he did well in praying at the consecration yet do we not ill in praying at the deliuerie of the Elements Neither can you shew a commandement from God either forbidding that we do or enioining the imitation of his example It hath afore beene proued by me and acknowledged by you that we are not necessarily and precisely bound to follow the doings of Christ in all things when wee administer the Sacraments S. The praier is ended before the receiuing of bread and wine and that some distance of time in great congregations where the Minister maketh the prayer but once but to some 40. or 50. Communicants who vsually sit all the time of praier and after that fall downe on their knees when the bread and wine are offered vnto them R. Impute not the disorders of some