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A94227 Tvvo speeches in Parliament of the right honourable William, Lord Vicount Say and Seale Mr. of his Majesties Court of Wards and Liveries, and one of his Majesties most honourable Privie Councell, the first upon the bill against bishops power in civill affaires and courts of judicature. The other a declaration of himself touching the liturgie, and separation. Saye and Sele, William Fiennes, Viscount, 1582-1662. 1641 (1641) Wing S795; ESTC R230189 10,162 16

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by the practice and doctrine of the Apostles and I may add by the Canons of ancient Councels grounded thereupon is prohibited to the Ministers of the Gospell and shewed to be such a distraction unto them from their Callings and function as wil bring a woe upon them and is not reasonable for them to admit of If they shall notwithstanding intangle themselves withall and enter into it will bring a guilt upon their soules and hurt them in respect of their consciences In the next place it doth blemish them and strike them in their credit so farre from truth is that position which they desire to possesse the world withall that unlesse they may have these outward trappings of worldly pomp added to the Ministry that Calling will grow into contempt and be despised The truth is these things cast contempt upon them in the eyes of men They gaine them cap and courtesie but they have cast them out of the consciences of men and the reason is this every thing is esteemed as it is eminent in its owne proper excellencie the eye in seeing not in hearing the eare in hearing not in speaking The one would be rather monstrous then comely the other is ever acceptable being proper so is it with them their proper excellency is spirituall the deniall of the world with the pomp and preferments and imployments thereof this they should teach and practise but when they contrary hereunto seeke after a worldly excellency like the great men of the world and to rule and dominere as they doe contrary to our Saviours precept Vos autem non sic but it shall not be so amongst you in steid of honor esteem they have brought upon themselves in the hearts of the people that contempt and odium which they now lye under and that justly and necessarily because the world seeth that they prefer a worldly excellency and run after it and contend for it before their owne which being spirituall is farre more excellent and which being proper to the Ministry is that alone which will put a value and esteem upon them that are of that Calling As these things hurt themselves in their consciences and credit so have they and if they be continued still will make them hurtfull to others The reason is because they break out of their owne orbe and move irregularly there is a curse upon their leaving of their owne place The heavenly bodies while they keep within their own spheres give light and comfort to the world But if they should break out and fall from their regular and proper motions they would set the world on fire so have these done while they kept themselves to the work of their ministry alone and gave themselves to prayer and the ministry of the Word according to the example of the Apostles the world received the greatest benefits by them they were the light and life thereof But when their ambition cast them down like starres from heaven to earth and they did grow once to be advanced above their brethren I doe appeale to all who have beene versed in the ancient Ecclesiasticall stories or moderne Histories whether they have not been the common incendiaries of the Christian world never ceasing from contention one with another about the precedency of their Sees and Churches Excommunicating one another drawing Princes to be parties with them and thereby casting them into bloody warres Their ambition and intermedling with secular affaires and State businesse hath bin the cause of shedding more Christian blood then any thing else in the Christian world and this no man can deny that is versed in History But we need not go out of our own Kingdome for examples of their insolency and cruelty when they had a dependency upon the Pope and any footing thereby out of the Land there were never any that carried themselves with so much scorn and insolency towards the Princes of this Kingdom as they have done Lincolne Two of them the Bishop that last spake hath named but instances of many more may be given whereof there would be no end Although the Pope be cast off yet now there is another inconvenience no lesse prejudiciall to the Kingdome by their sitting in this House and that is they have such an absolute dependency upon the King that they sit not here as freemen That which is requisite to freedome is to be void of hopes and feares Hee that can lay downe these is a free-man and will be so in this house But for the Bishops as the case stands with them it is not likely they will lay aside their hopes greater Bishopricks being still in expectancy and for their fears they cannot lay them downe since their places and seats in Parliament are not invested in them by blood and so hereditary but by annexation of a Barony to their office and depending upon that office so that they may be deprived of their office and thereby of their places at the Kings pleasure they doe not so much as sit here dum bene se gesserint as the Judges now by your Lordships petition to the King have their places granted them but at will and pleasure and therefore as they were all excluded by Edw. the first as long as hee pleased and Lawes made excluso Clero so may they be by any King at his pleasure in like manner they must needs therefore bee in an absolute dependencie upon the Crowne and thereby at devotion for their votes which how prejudiciall it hath beene and will be to this house I need not say I have now shewed your Lordships how hurtfull to themselves and others these things which the bill would take away have beene I will only answer some Objections which I have met withall and then crave your pardon for troubling you so long Object 1. It will be said that they have beene very antient 2. That they are established by law 3. That it may be an infringement to the priviledges of the House of Peeres for the house of Commons to send up a Bill to take away some of their members To these three objections the answer will be easie 1. To the first Antiquity is no good plea for that which is by experience found to be hurtfull the longer it hath done hurt the more cause there is now to remove it that it may doe no more besides other irregularities are as antient which have bin thought fit to be redressed and this is not so antient but that it may truly be said Non fuit sic ab initio 2. For being established by Law the law-makers have the same power and the same charge to alter old lawes inconvenient as to make new that are necessary 3. For priviledge of the House it can be no breach of it for either estate may propose to other by way of bill what they conceive to be for publick good and they have power respectively of accepting or refusing There are two other Objections which may seeme to have