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A62270 A speech in Parliament of Right Honorable William, Lord Vicount Say and Seale mr. of His Majesties Court of Wards and Liveries, and one of His Majesties most Honourable Privie Councell : upon the hill against bishops power in civill affaires and courts of indicature. Saye and Sele, William Fiennes, Viscount, 1582-1662. 1641 (1641) Wing S790; ESTC R31189 5,421 12

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Canons of ancient Councels grounded thereupon is prohibited to the Ministers of the Gospell and shewed to be such a distraction unto them from their Callings and function as will bring a woe upon them and is not reasonable for them to admit of If they shall notwithstanding intangle themselves withall and enter into it will bring a guilt upon their soules and hurt them in respect of their consciences In the next place it doth blemish them and strike them in their credit so farre from truth is that position which they desire to possesse the world withall that unlesse they may have these outward trappings of worldly pompe added to the ministry that Calling will grow into contempt and bee despised The truth is these things cast contempt upon them in the eyes of men They gaine them cappe and courtesie but they have cast them out of the consciences of men and the reason is this every thing is esteemed as it is eminent in its owne proper excellencie the eye in seeing not in hearing the eare in hearing not in speaking The one would bee rather monstrous then comely the other is ever acceptable being proper so is it with them their proper excellency is spirituall the denyall of the world with the pompe and preferments and imployments thereof this they should teach and practise but when they contrary hereunto seeke after a worldly excellency like the great men of the world and to rule and dominere as they doe contrary to our Saviours precept Vos autem non sic but it shall not bee so amongst you in stead of honour and esteeme they have brought upon themselves in the hearts of the people that contempt and odium which they now lye under and that justly and necessarily because the world seeth that they preferre a worldly excellency and runne after it and contend for it before their owne which being spirituall is farre more excellent and which being proper to the Ministrie is that alone which will put a value and esteeme upon them that are of that Calling As these things hurt themselves in their consciences and credit so have they and if they bee continued still will make them hurtfull to others The reason is because they breake out of their owne orbe and move irregularly there is a curse upon their leaving of their owne place The heavenly bodies while they keepe within their owne spheres give light and comfort to the world But if they should breake out and fall from their regular and proper motions they would set the world on sire so have these done while they kept themselves to the worke of their ministery alone and gave themselves to prayer and the ministry of the Word according to the example of the Apostles the world received the greatest benefits by them they were the light and life thereof But when their ambition cast them downe like starres from heaven to earth and they did grow once to be advanced above their brethren I doe appeale to all who have beene versed in the ancient Ecclesiasticall stories or moderne Histories whether they have not beene the common incendiaries of the Christian world never ceasing from contention one with another about the precedency of their Sees and Churches Excommunicating one another drawing Princes to bee parties with them and thereby casting them into bloody warres Their ambition and intermedling with secular affaires and State businesse hath beene the cause of shedding more Christian blood then any thing else in the Christian world and this no man can deny that is versed in History But we need not goe out of our owne Kingdome for examples of their insolency and cruelty when they had a dependency upon the Pope and any footing thereby out of the Land there were never any that carryed themselves with so much scorne and insolencie towards the Princes of this Kingdome as they have done Lincolne Two of them the Bishop that last spake hath named but instances of many more may bee given whereof there would bee no end Although the Pope bee cast off yet now there is another inconvenience no lesse prejudiciall to the Kingdome by their sitting in this House and that is they have such an absolute dependency upon the King that they sit not here as freemen That which is requisite to freedome is to be void of hopes and feares Hee that can lay downe these is a free-man and will be so in this house But for the Bishops as the case stands with them it is not likely they will lay aside their hopes greater Bishopricks being still in expectancy and for their feares they cannot lay them downe since their places and seats in Parliament are not invested in them by blood and so hereditary but by annexation of a Barony to their office and depending upon that office so that they may be deprived of their office and thereby of their places at the Kings pleasure they doe not so much as sit here dum bene se gesserint as the Judges now by your Lordships petition to the King have their places granted them but at will and pleasure and therefore as they were all excluded by Edw. the first as long as hee pleased and Lawes made excluso Clero so may they be by any King at his pleasure in like manner they must needs therefore bee in an absolute dependencie upon the Crowne and thereby at devotion for their votes which how prejudiciall it hath beene and will be to this house I need not say I have now shewed your Lordships how hurtfull to themselves and others these things which the bill would take away have beene I will onely answer some Objections which I have met withall and then crave your pardon for troubling you so long Object 1. It will be said that they have beene very antient 2. That they are established by law 3. That it may be an infringement to the priviledges of the House of Peeres for the house of Commons to send up a Bill to take away some of their members To these three objections the answer will be easie 1. To the first Antiquity is no good plea for that which is by experience found to be hurtfull the longer it hath done hurt the more cause there is now to remove it that it may doe no more besides other irregularities are as antient which have beene thought fit to bee redressed and this is not so antient but that it may truly be said Non fuit sic ab initio 2. For being established by Law the law-makers have the same power and the same charge to alter old lawes inconvenient as to make new that are necessary 3. For priviledge of the House it can be no breach of it for either estate may propose to other by way of bill what they conceive to bee for publicke good and they have power respectively of accepting or refusing There are two other Objections which may seeme to have more force but they will receive satisfactory answers The one is that if they may remove Bishops they may aswell next time remove Barons and Earles for answer The Reason is not the same the one sitting by an Honour invested in their blood and hereditary which though it be in the King to grant alone yet being once granted he cannot take away the other sitting by a Barony depending upon an Office which may bee taken away for if they be deprived of their office they sit not 2. Their sitting is not so essentiall for Lawes have beene and may be made they being all excluded but it can never be shewed that ever there were Lawes made by the King and them the Lords and Earles excluded Object The other objection is this that this Bill alters the foundation of this house and innovations which shake foundations are dangerous Answ I answer first that if there should bee an error in the foundation when it shall be found and the master builders be met together they may nay they ought rather to amend it then to suffer it to runne on still to the prejudice and danger of the whole structure 2. Secondly I say this is not fundamentall to this House for it hath stood without them and done all that appertaines to the power thereof without them yea they being wholly excluded and that which hath beene done for a time at the Kings pleasure may be done with as little danger for a longer time and when it appeares to be fit and for publick good not onely may but ought to be done altogether by the supreme Power FINIS