Sabaoth Which very words wee vse in our solemnizing of the holy Communion thus Therefore with Angels and Archangels and the company of Heauen wee laud and magnifie thy glorious name euermore praysing thee and saying Holy holy holy Lord God of hosts Heauen and earth are full of thy glory Glory bee to thee O Lord most high Can this Goose gaggle against this Augustine is next lib. 1. de Serm. Dom. in Monte cap. 5. in whom I finde no such diuision nor any thing to purpose And lib. de doct Christ cap. 7. againe As if there were but one booke there being foure and no such matter in any 7. Chapter Who can brooke such an ignorant or negligent companion in a point of controuersie and imputation Which is also obserued by him in Saint Gregory Saint Gregory is to be seene lib. 1. Moral cap. 28. in which booke there are not so many Chapters nor in the Chapters which are any such thing The truth is that which was meant is lib. 29. Moral vpon the 38. of Iob the same in effect with Saint Ambrose before Esais quoque cùm Laudem Trinitatis aperiret Seraphini voces exprimens ait Sanctus sanctus sanctus ac ne tertiò SanctuÌ„ nominaÌ„s vni â—ateÌ„ diuinae substantiae scindere videretur adtuÌ„xit Dominus Deus Sabaoth which almost word for word is repeated Homil. 16. and not 19. as we find it cited vpon Ezechiel To which hee might haue added Psal 67. Benedicat nobis Deus Deus noster Benedicat nobis Deus and that in Rom. XI For of him and by him and in him are al things to him be praise for euer Amen These are his Fathers that should affirme the same videlicet that it is nor superfluous nor superstitious to repeat one the same prayer oftentimes They repeat nothing they affirm nothing they only speak what was done That which they speake wee doe That which they are supposed to affirme against vs if they did affirme any thing needed not For we affirme vse propose and maintaine the same priuately publiquely in our Liturgie and Seruice of the Church To conclude Sir Gagger bring mee any one Place of Scripture any practice resolued of the Catholicks any decision of the Church representatiue any determination of the Church collectiue in a particular approued Synod any Saying of any one Father of Credit dogmatically resolued for 500. yeeres and better after Christ to the end of the Councell of Chalcedon against any thing established in the Church of England that is in the Communion-booke the booke of Articles the booke of Consecrating Bishops and ordering of Priests and Deacons and I will subscribe Heer is scope enough to ramble in Gagge me if you can As for priuate opinions I am bound to none no not vnto my owne Quisque abundet in sensu suo so be it hee trouble not the Church therewith FINIS Curteous Reader before I presse thee to peruse this treatise haue I pray thee so much patience as to permit me to giue thee my aduice concerning some certaine poâ—nts very necessary for thâ—e the â—ettâ—â— to sâ—me thy selfe thâ—â—of with fruit and pâ—ofit The first point is that in the inscription thereof it doth not tell thee out of which English Bible the alleadged pâ—stages are extracted For as much as this were mecrely in vaine sith that England hath brought forth within these few years past to the number of 20. seueralâ—â—orts of Bibles farre different one from another so that the Protestants haue not all one sort of Bible Notwithstanding know this for certainty that they are faithfully taken forth of the Bâ—â—le in quarto Printed at London by Robert Barker Anno 1615. If any one shall shew vnto thee some other Bible wherein they are not so written word for word as here they are yet rest assured and out of doubt that thou shalt finde theÌ„ written as they are here alleadged at the least in this of Robert Barkers The second point is that thou admire the splendour of Truth and accordingly to stand as stoutly and as immooueably in the maintenance and defence thereof Yet neuerthelesse their condemnation is so expresly set downe in their owne Bibles and is so cleare to all the world that nothing more needs hereto but onely that thou know to reade and haue thy eyes in thy head at the opening of this their booke * This in my mind cannot choose but be an exceeding comfort vnto a Catholike Yea rather a great signe of security and assurance concerning the truth and vprightnesse of his cause in shewing himselfe content to be tried by their owne Bibles The translations whereof doth in a number of places and particularly in those that are now in controuersie swarue and differ notoriously from the Authenticall Latin and that to the incredible disparagement darkning and obscuring of the Catholike verity Neuer did nor neuer dare our aduersaries offer themselues to giue the like aduantage to vs as to be tryed by our own translations The third is that when thou shalt vrge or alleadge any passage in fauour of thine owne faith if any one returne the change be it either in recriminationâ— and blaming of the Roman Church or be it in alleadging some obscure text and ill vnderstood to counterpoint thine Shew c. The fourthis that they reiect some one of the passages which thou producest pretending it to be Apocrypha though it be not true That to preuent this obiection no such scriptures as they call Apocryphall are there produced but still there goe accompanied with them others also that are Canonical But if they shall contend with thee not about the words themselues as being both cleere and Canonicall but about the sense or meaning of theÌ„ know this that for such places as may bee subiect to such cauill thou hast here the warrant and authority of the holy fathers which haue vnderstood these places in the selfe-same sense that Catholickes doe A thing which they can neuer do in their defence And what reason were it then to preferre the priuate interpretation of a Cobler before S. Chrysostome of a Baker before S. Basil of a Tinker before Tertullian and so of others I here protest in the presence of God whom I call vpon in this behalfe Which yet should be to alter the text and to imploy mans wisdome in stead of the word A thing by their owne confession forbidden them they protesting c. Farewell my deare Reader seeing I haue now said all that vnto thee which I desired Gag Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible Against Acts 8. 30. c. Against Luk. 24. 15. How then are Scriptures so easie to be vnderstood of the vnlearned when the Disciples themselues vnderstood them not till first they were expounded vnto them See more 2 Pet. 1. 20. Gag See Fathers which affirme the same Iren. lib. 2. cap. 47. Origen lib. 7. cont Celsum Ambr. Ep. 44 ad Constant calleth it a Sea a depth of Propheticall
Church of England doth vnto Angell-keepers will not stand with you for it that orant pro nobis not onely in genere but in particulari Your desire is onely for priuate aduantage to keep a Faction on foot and therefore you flutter in dubious tearms Holy Angels pray not for vs which is or true or false as it may be taken XXV That we may not pray vnto them PRay to them if you like it or to Saint Loiola if you please we cannot hinder you from playing the fools and exposing your selues to bee laughed-at for your labours I say as Iosua sometime said in a case not very much vnlike Call vpon what Saints or Angels you will go serue Baal or Astaroth if you fansie it We in the Church of England will call vnto the Lord of Heauen and Earth by immediate addresse without intercession of Mediators hauing warrant most sufficient by direction and inuitation Psalm 50. 15. Call vpon me in the time of trouble so I will beare thee and deliuer thee Doo you knowe any man so vnaduised that will go about when hee may well go streight or will sue for assistance and that also vncertain when he needeth none Perhaps there is no such great impiety in saying Sancte Laurenti ora pro me but in my opinion till I am better informed it is grand foolery to say Sancta Catharina ora pro me where I may say cum effectu vnto God himself Miserere mei Deus Lord haue mercy vpon me If you might haue accesse vnto his Holinesse at pleasure would you vse the mediation of Cardinall Barberino if there bee any such though the Pope's Nephew I suppose not if you did I say no more but The Vicar of Saint Fooles be your ghostly father But our Bible is against our Doctrine In good time how so For Iacob saith Gen. 48. 16. The Angell which redeemed mee you read deliuereth mee from all euill blesse these Lads where first you bely your owne reading You read Angelus qui er uit me Is that deliuereth in the present Tense in your Grammar It is to all but you in the Time past that hath deliuered Now what such difference that it should bee noted betwixt deliuered and redeemed indeed that hath taken me out Secondly read it how you will it is not to purpose You propose it thus That we may not you proue the lawfulnes quia factum so you may proue theft murder and what not It is a priuate fact of Iacob there related by Moses and the Acts no not of the best men are no rules of actions vnto others We should liue by Precept not by Practice Our Sauiour said not What seest thou but What readest thou But thirdly I will take no such exception I admit it ruleable euery way Iacob did well wee may doo so as Iacob did and yet not pray to Angels Therefore fourthly I answer contradictorily to your inference This is not spoken to but of an Angell secondly not of a created Angel but of Christ Thirdly Christ is a true Angell This Fellow must go learn to speak before hee write what to put in Print before hee publish it to vnderstand Diuinity before he babble in it Is Christ an Angell and not a true one Is he a false or a counterfet Angell in appearance in collusion not in substance Who euer heard such Stuffe from a Priest's lips Christ is an Angell not created a true Angell of an higher alloy Prince of Angels as of men a mighty Angell The Angell of the Couenant And this was spoken of him by the Patriarch Iacob The God of Bethel as hee is called that spake with Iacob in Bethel and met him there who wrastled with him who blessed him who told not his name being secret spoken of him by commemoration not vnto him by inuocation That Angell which deliuered mee blesse these The man had I knowe not how some intimation from some other that we would reply that this Angell heer specified as indeed wee beleeue it was Christ himself and no created Angell and therefore to gag our mouthes hee preuents our answer that in the opinion of Saint Basil Chrysostome and Hierome it was not Christ but a created Angell and therefore who for shame can say he praied not to him Wisely I warrant you as if it could not bee auoyded but he was then prayed vnto because in the opinion of these men hee was a created Angell which is no consequence except it were granted that none but created Angels were to bee prayed vnto on any hand at any time vpon any occasion Now who for shame will thus reason to shame himselfe but hee that eyther is past shame or through ignorance not capable of it It is good to vncase such a Mountebanke that he may be knowne what he is But I go from him to this the point in question These Fathers opined That Angel was not Christ but a created Angel and what then As if as many were not of a contrary opinion But were it not so no more can be collected then this that in some mens opinioÌ„ Iacob spake of a created angel thence in some mens opinion not by any expresse words of our Bibles which we were promised to haue this was not Christ Which if it were so as this Gagger can neuer proue it so I will vndertake against him if hee dare yet wee answer first Then it was Iacobs Guardian at least as Tostatus and Iesuites that I haue seene imagine Now the case of Angels-keepers in point of Aduocation Inuocation is much different from other Angels not Guardians as being continually attendant alway at hand though inuisibly therfore though we might say Sancte Angele Custos ora pro me it followeth not we may say Sancte Gabriel ora pro me But lastly heere is no Inuocation nor Intercession nor praying vnto any Angell Custos or not Custos ordinary or extraordinarily attendant It is a desire directed by Iacob vnto God to send his Angel for that seruice and employment to blesse keep those Lads It is no addresse vnto that Holy Angel whosoeuer he was Which being so so far from express words pretended were not this fellow past all shame he would shame to say Iacob prayed vnto an Angel But of this and this Question elsewhere more at large Thither gang this Gaggler and I shall gag him I am sure in this point of praying vnto Angels and Saints XXVI That the Angels cannot help vs. SEale vp thy Lips for euer thou lying tongue Said euer any Protestant Angels cannot helpe vs Name mee the man that may thus bee blotted or hot burning coles bee thy portion thou Lyer and misborne Elâ—e of the Father of lies It is contrary indeed to expresse words of our owne Bibles not alone in the places rightly produced but many moe and more to purpose then some of these are contrary to sense reason beliefe and experience contrary to our teaching our
now out of Apoc. 5. 8. You and your Masters agree as well as Harp and Harrow and no better Your self are fitter for an Harrow than a Harp Asinus ad lyram in these controuerted points of piety But touching your dead Israelites Sir of little wit and lesse vnderstanding they were not dead though peraduenture sleeping They slept not then in the dust of the earth beeing gathered vnto their Fathers but dead because like vnto the Dead out of minde cast off cast out of no reputation in the opinion of the world dead Ver. 10. 11. in the same chapt Men waxen old in a strange Countrey accounted with them that go down into the pit as the Prophet expoundeth his owne meaning These were not Ezechias Iosias Dauid Esaias or the rest but Ezechiel Baruch Daniel Sidrach his companions then aliue These dead were liuing and in case to pray and did pray for themselues their wiues and children their Country-men at Babylon in captiuity Wee imagine so and Baruch himself biddeth vs think so Yet note what Theodoret saith to the contrary And so we will for it is worth the noting if hee knew Baruch's minde better than himself Note it we will and subscribe it too if Theodoret interpret this place as you doo for as for Catholiques I haue not enquired how they interpret it I need not it is so palpable I verily suppose you haue pigges in your belly and cry We Catholiques when it is but a Cacolick and a poor one God knoweth your silly selfe interpret the place so But haue you looked vpon Theodoret Are you certain hee interpreteth it so I cannot finde it to note it in him This is all that I can note in no very great Paraphrase neither Verba clarè ostendunt immortalitatem onima and to this Protestants firmly and constantly assent as well as any Papists or Popes either for some of them haue scarce assented thereto though not for this Proof of Theodoret which how clarè it sheweth that I see not Theodoret could not hence note vnto vs the immortality of the soule otherwise than because the dead doo liue which to admit yet is it farre enough from the exposition of Catholiques that imagine Inuocation may bee inferred hence For dead men may pray and yet not for others It is an idle exception If for themselues their glory should not bee compleat For doth this Ignaro imagine their glory is yet compleat no augmentation to accrue vnto it at least accidentall at the Resurrection If he knowe not this the Catholique Cause was very farre forlorne when such Smatterers set pen to paper to propugn it Secondly there are causes more than one of such praier They may well pray for others and yet not bee prayed vnto themselues in regard of generall vnion and knowledge particularly and remembrance extraordinary knowledge and information So this Andabatarian Catholique fighteth with his owne shadow Wee deny it not in these tearms The Saints departed doo pray for vs. The Sun is not so cleer as there is no cleer vnderstanding in him XXX That we may not pray vnto them WHatsouer they doo for vs wee doo not much for them for we say we may not pray vnto them contrary to our own Bibles Beleeue it who list Pray to them if you will we and our people will pray vnto the Lord who is ready willing able to heare vs euery way without such Aduocates or Mediators And where are our Bibles so contrary to vs Nay vnderstand you the resolutions of your owne men Sancti non sunt inuocandi Saints are not to be praied vnto is a Proposition of Father Roberts I grant with limitation thus Not as Authors of diuine blessings or goodnes But what a Buzzard are you in the mean time that leaue such an aduantage to your Aduersary For against this loose Proposition of yours Saints are to bee prayed vnto without his restraint these Scriptures are plain Psalm 83. God giueth grace and glory Psalm 120. I lift vp my eies vnto the hils from whence commeth my help my help commeth onely from the Lord that hath made heauen and earth And that Iames 1. Euery good gift and euery perfect giuing is from aboue descending down from the Father of lights and such like that send vs onely and directly to God in the opinion and vpon the allegation of Bellarmine You cannot answer these Texts of your Bible contrary to your Tenet as you set it down Wee can answer whatsoeuer you bring against as Luk. 16. 24. Father Abraham haue mercy on mee Heere is one Saint prayed vnto First by whom By Diues a firebrand in hell So the Damned are directers of your doctrine no doubt good doctrine so wel grounded Secondly this was no praier vnto Abraham if Bellarmine haue taught vs aright for the Saints of the old Testament saith hee being then in Limbo were not praied vnto as not seeing God but Abraham was a Saint of the old Testament not of the new Thirdly it is a Parable and so not concluding farther than the scope and end which is not this Fourthly Abraham is supposed at least heer to haue bin within hearing Bring the Virgin Mary within my kenning I will say vnto her Sancta Maria or a pro mee Next Send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue Heer say you or else you erre is another Saint praied vnto No such matter Sir Gagger gape wider and stare the Text in the face you shall see at last if you haue not lost your wits and eies and all that if any be prayed vnto it is not another but the same Saint Abraham to send Lazarus Diues saith not Saint Lazarus come but Father Abraham send When you call to your Bottle-ale-Hostesse to send her Maid for something you want the Maid must so take it you withall intreat her to go Sure your wits are drowned in Bottle-ale or mured in a Bakers Basket That of Iob 5. 1. for so it is doth not answer our expectation nor your vndertaking You vaunted to confound vs by our owne Bibles and you are fain to go to your Bibles In our Bibles we read Call now if there be any that will answer thee and to which of the Saints wilt thou turn In your Bibles it is And turn to some of the Saints Your fleeing from ours vnto your owne argueth that in your opinion there is difference betwixt the interpretations and so there is for by our interpretation you are gone Eliphas telleth Iob It is in vain to go vnto any of the Saints for there is in them no help at all an Interrogation being equiualent to a Negation Is there any can doo this in effect There is none that can doo it So that you discredit your owne cause that are fain to be recreant in your vndertaking and flee off from our Bibles vnto your owne Bible Thither I need not follow you but I will So little are you to
be Our Sauiour had formerly discoursed of eating his flesh and drinking his blood His very Disciples supposing as you doe that he meant they should eate his Flesh as they did the Fishes or vsed to eate the Paschall Lambe were here it offended Our Sauiour vnderstanding this their scandall replyeth in these words according to your Latin Authenticall edition Hoe vos scandalisat spiritus est qui viuificat caro non prodest quicquam verba quae ego locotus sum vobis spiritus vitasunt You remember an allegation you brought out of S. Paul If these things be hidden they are hidden vnto those that perish I put it to you if this be obscure it is obscure to him that will not see or to him who iustly God hath abandoned and giuen ouer Nothing can be more direct and plaine then that our Sauiour telleth them his speech of eating his flesh was Sacramentall not carnally but spiritually to be vnderstood This is it saith Chrysostome which he meaneth You must conceiue of me spiritually For he that taketh this carnally is not benefitted thereby nor getteth any good therewith It was a carnall thought to make a doubt in what sort he came downe from heauen And to suppose him the sonne of Ioseph And to dispute how can he giue vs his flesh to eate All these were carnall thoughts which must be mystically and spiritually vnderstood The words that I speake vnto you are spirit and life that is are diuine and spirituall hauing nothing carnall not any inference or consequence naturall But are freed from all such necessity as this surpassing legal tyes and conditions below conteining another sense and meaning then is literally set downe If this be not an important passage goe gagge Saint Chrysostome and other ancient Fathers that put this saying into the Protestants mouths as plaine a text of Scripture as in the beginning God made heauen and earth Plaine or obscure yet to no purpose For it affirmeth nothing lesse then that which they pretend to prooue thereby And what is that are you aware of it That the flesh of Christ profiteth nothing It is plaine the flesh profiteth nothing It is plaine the passage is of Christs flesh Therefore the flesh of Christ profiteth nothing This you say is absurd And so say I nay I adde this is impious For his Flesh is life and giueth life and therefore nothing profiteth so much as that If the passage be not of Christs flesh of what is it can you tell I beleeue you cannot But your instructors can tell you they would haue it taken that Carnalis intelligentia non prodest Good And so say I. But Intelligentia cuius of a certaine indiuiduum vagum abstrahendo from all subiect or obiect whatsoeuer Idle and absurd But Carnalis intelligentia of that which must bee taken spiritually And so of this place and principally and primarily of this place as giuing occasion vnto this Axiome of our Sauiour The flesh profiteth not This is not vrged by Peter Martyr or any Protestant against Hoc est corpus meum This is my body but against This is my body by this means This way that is by Transubstantiation Which is carnally to take that which was spoken and intended spiritually onely It is easily granted you by the Protestant and you might haue made your friends of this aduice that way That it is doubtlesse better to explicate an obscure passage by one that is cleere then one that is cleere by a passage obscure For reason it selfe and commonsense will dictate this that the proofe must be more euident then the thing prooued The epexegesis more manifest then that which is explaned The Protestants obserue this course they say You in this so small a Pamphlet as I haue let you see are culpable that way more then once It is much more cleere and euident what our Sauiour meaneth by Flesh and Spirit Then how This can be my body Sic etiamsi carnem ait nihil prodesse ex materia dicti dirigendus est sensus Nam quia durum intolerabilem existimauerunt sermonem eius quasi verè carnem suam illis edendam determinasset vt in spiritu disponeret statum salutis praemisit spiritus est qui viuificat Atque ita subiunxit caro nihil prodest ad viuificandum scilicet Tertul. de Resur cap. 37. Intanglements and obscurities in this place if there be any proceede from your glosses not the places nor yet the Resolutions of antiquity Were your rule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That one text shold giue place to many rather then many vnto one or fewer yet apply that rule you may where it will or neede be fitted here no neede of any such aduise at all where Alterius sic alter poscit opem locus conspirat amicé The fourth will hardly come vnder the title of aduice it is rather a vaunt at most and best an Information what is obserued in the Gagge concerning texts out of Scriptures Apocryphall to make good the assertions against the Protestants The man supposed exception would sometime be put in against some of his witnesses though for my part I haue passed them all without putting backe any as homines legales to say what they could for he knew well enough they were exceptiue and not passeable in strict tearmes and iust exception Therfore to preuent what he feared their credit is salued as much as may be that is they are brought in as o in cypher to enhaunce the number onely so as they with others may make vp a tallie Others beside them passe currant and with weight They without others carry no credit Know saith he that to preuent this obiection viz. that the testimonies are authenticall no such scriptures as they call and haue prooued and will maintaine to be Apocrypha are here produced but still they goe accompanyed with others that are Canonicall by their owne confession Which I grant is obserued for the most part at least Nor will we refuse a testimony of Aristotle or Demosthenes that agreeth with and commeth in with subordinate dependance vpon Scripture Where Scripture is apparant and consent incident and manifest But non feremus as in the point of Purgatory is obtruded a plainer and more obuious place of Toby to interlope betwixt two Canonicall Texts the hardest two in Saint Paul and all agree in one as well as harpe and harrow nor any correspondency in the vinculo communi as is pretended to make vtraque vnum and all speake for that which is farre enough from all or any state of Purgatory after death The second branch of your fourth point I mislike not at all for the matter of it Scripture is not in the words but in the sense and meaning of the words that is in the notions and intents of the Spirit of the highest intimated vnder the couert of words There are moe things then words to expresse those things by Hence doubts and ambiguities doe
then heare them not Verba legis proferendo in the opinion of Saint Augustine so long as they speake Law This is not our Heresie but Catholique Doctrine De legis ac Mosis doctrinâ loquitur perindè enim est acsi dicat Omnia quae Lex Moyses vobis dixerint Scribis Pharisaeis recitantibus seruate saith Maldonate no friend nor fauourer of Protestants And after him Barradas another Iesuite in this resolution a very Protestant Hoc est saith he omnia quae legi Dei mandatis non repugnāt Ergo bound in the text with this restriction as you must and it is a plaine Gagge to the Gospel Luke 10. 16. He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and hee that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me Therfore c. You know not what you say All this we constantly beleeue But first I answere this is a text indeede to purpose to vindicate authority to the Church and her Pastors but not expressely which is your vndertaking by necessary consequence and indenied it is but you haue tied your selfe foole as you were vnto expresse words and expresse words are not here extant Secondly perhaps it is not so pat as you imagine because the men intended there and then were of another making fashion and account than euer were any since or before and therefore their priuiledges more peculiar of greater extent insomuch as that all were not to be heard so respectiuely as they were they without Scripture or allegation of Scripture hauing mission immediate from the Sonne himselfe which none euer had but they But thirdly I answere take it with Saint Cyprian Epist 96. and others in a larger extent ad omnes praepositos qui Apostolis vicariâ ordinatione succedunt vnto the Gouernours in the Church who succeede the Apostles in the Churches gouernement by imposition of hands and ordination and goe and answere your selfe out of Saint Bernard thus Be the commandement tendred by God or man as Gods agent it is to be receiued with like reuerence Vbi tamen Deo contraria non praecipit homo As farre as man doth not gain-say the will and commandement of the most high A flat Protestant in his assertion and vpon reason For a Nuntio must goe to his Commission Matth. 16. 19. I will giue vnto thee the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen whatsoeuer thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen Which text hath no such mention of relying vpon Church or Pastors in matters of faith expressed Nor hitherto perhaps any such meaning Your Compeeres were wont to cry vs downe with this text For Saint Peters iurisdiction ouer all and the Popes vniuersall power in claue potestatis You now waue that power it seemeth and cast aside that key and lay hold vpon that other key of knowledge Shall wee belieue your Puniship or them This cannot be good Catholique vnitie in so fundamentall a poynt of your Faith except for neere alliance betwixt Saint Peter and his Spouse the Church whatsouer is remembred of the one must be likewise true of the other But out with your Table-bookes you that haue them amongst you and Note the man will giue you something worth the noting that is our Sauiour doth not say whomsoeuer but whatsoeuer We take it and note it and meane to make good vse of it inferring thereupon through your owne confession that therefore St. Peter by Christs commission must in case of binding and loosing and executing the power of the Keyes which whether it be all one with binding and losing you are not agreed amongst your selues let whomsoeuer alone for euer and betake himselfe vnto whatsoeuer that is not meddle any more with Kings and Princes with cantoning of their Kingdomes and estates but content himselfe with whatsoeuer matters of fact inferiour matters of Faith and the like decisions at least with Causes and Persons within his owne Verge indeede Causes that is knots and difficulties for Persons are none of that combination So to shake hands with your memorable obseruation Therefore in matters of faith euen by their owne Bible wee must not relye vpon the written word onely but vpon whatsoeuer Saint Peter shall tie or vntie which we in this case are contented to doe and to say with that Councell of which he was a part you say President visum est spiritui sancto nobis the decision of the Catholique Church wee receiue as the dictate of the holy Spirit but be you sure it is the iudgment of the Church for you are good Proficients in equiuocation and present vs the Church vpon no better termes then if you should tender vs a man of straw for a perfect man or a shadow for a substance Indeede to this effect that is to as little purpose as that which went before In cases of controuersies and of doubts in matters of fact or ciuill cognisance which could not be determined by ordinary course of Law in the seuerall Counties as it were or Places of iudicature the Parties plaintife and defendants were to referre it to the Leuits Priests and Iudge in these daies that is to the Church and to the Pope you dreame and let your dreame goe once for truth and they must heare it determine it definitiuely It was capitall to refuse or to appeale Good but yet this commeth not home for they must determine it according vnto Law to which supreamest decision both concurre the Rule of right and determiner of right according to that rule In our construction to our present question the iudgement of the Church according vnto Scripture the selfe-same that the Protestant maintaineth In this text I graunt more is to be seene then in all the rest viz. when the word of the Lord came vnto Agge the Prophet Which thing how it sorteth with the present position I cannot tell speake those that can But the word that then came vnto him was this in the 12. verse Aske the Priests concerning the Lawe And the Priests answered according vnto Law thus and thus And this is resoluing of a doubt by the Priests but the doubt resolued according vnto Law so the written word is relyed vpon Not I my selfe the word onely Quis enim respondet Did euer any man deny that the Church and her Pastors are not to be heard speaking out of or else according vnto Scriptures Shew this and take it else Nihil ad rhombum That of 2 Chron. 19. 8. is all one with Deuter. 17. 8. an exemplification of that rule a practice according vnto that direction there somewhat more For hereby it appeareth that the Precept was not for Tell the Church and heare her Pastors but goe take the ordinary course appointed the iudgement of a standing court mixt of Clergie and of the Laitie as it were our court of high Commission or indeede the Starre-chamber consisting of both robes
shall not depart is Gods promise Mans promise reciprocall is I will not depart from them If I depart that is if man faile They may and shall depart God is then free Now this supposed what assurance is there for my words shall not depart c So your first Text is mistaken peraduenture in the meaning but without peraduenture in the allegation It is Esay 5â— 21. not as you tender it from your aduisers 49. 21. And lastly it is to be vnderstood of the Church of the Iewes in particular conuerted vnto Christ as it seemeth by Saint Paul Rom. 11. 26. and not of the Church of the Christians already conuerted and so you misapply as well as mistake But more ridiculously in your second Text Iohn 14. 16. For haue you read or heard that euer any Protestant maintained That the holy Ghost can erre I suppose not I beleeue you are not so much past shame to say so and yet your conclusion is so The spirit of truth cannot erre For hauing recited the Text of the Gospell your illation is Therefore the spirit of truth hath aboade for euer and shall abide for euer with the Church and consequently cannot erre What Sir cannot erre To my vnderstanding The Spirit of Truth cannot erre can you vnderstand it otherwise But let your barbarismes goe by to the point I answer first you faile and that confessedly in your vndertakings It is but consequently the Church cannot erre therefore confessed not expresly Secondly I answer out of the Text it selfe This promise is for comfort not instruction The Comforter shall abide for euer for Christ there spake of affliction which should ensue Thirdly were it punctually for direction we might reioyne It was a temporary promise a personall priuiledge to the Apostles you thought wee would say so belike supposing wee had no other shift silly men like your selfe therefore you come in with by way of preuention But the Apostles themselues could not abide for euer poore foole that knowest not there is duplex aeternum frequent in Scripture Gods euer and mans euer That for euerlasting as God is This for the terme of his being so for euer is thus no more then while you are all the dayes of your life But we seeke no aduantage we will not take it we grant Gods Spirit eternally assistant to the Catholique Church then represented in the Apostles and therefore we admit that you belye vs in your Proposition The Church can erre to be vnderstood of the Catholique Church as is expressed The third Text in order Esay 35. 8. is so farre from expressing the not erring of the Church that it is a question though such a Nouice as you know it not whether it be to be taken of the Church at all Hierome in his Comments expoundeth it of Christ who saith of himselfe Iohn 14. I am the way the truth the life An high way shall be there and a way and it shall be called the way of holinesse the vncleane shall not passe ouer it but it shall be for those The way faring men though fooles shall not erre therein Who told you that this way was the Church why not the Scripture which is also a way and called a way as to my remembrance the Church is not Ibi erit semita via mundissima quae sancta vocabitur c. There shall be a path saith Hierome and a most cleane way which shall be called Holy and which saith of himselfe I am the way by which way the polluted cannot passe where also we reade it spoken in the Psalme Blessed are the vndefiled in the way And this way that is our God shall be vnto vs so direct so plaine so open and champion that no wandring shall be there Fooles and silly men may walke therein vnto whom in the Prouerbs wisdome speaketh thus If there be any little ones let them come vnto me and shee hath spoken vnto the Fooles Come you and eate of my bread Thus Hierome vpon the place Tertullian in 4. against Marcion is indifferent for Christ the head of the Church or Faith in Christ the life of the Church Your Worship Sir Gagger out of your authoritie cast it meerely vpon the Church Satis pro Imperio if you can out-beare it Howsoeuer it is not expresse as it should be Not to purpose if it were expresse our question is not whether fooles can erre but whether the Church can erre The Church hath often beene compared to a Ship and now at last by you made a Ship of Fooles Content so you be Pilot in that Ship Sir Foole. Once at length you rightly bid vs goe see more For the Text of Iohn 16. 13. is more expresse than all the former He shall leade you into all truth But what if this text concerne not truth vpon Earth but Truth in Heauen What becommeth then of your Not erring Augustine and Bede encline that way What if it be personall vnto the Apostles alone not to the Church or their successours Hee will shew you the things to come and I haue many things to say vnto you but you cannot beare them now these such like passages doe more than seeme to conclude it vnto them What if he meant but All things that were necessary and conuenient for them to know so Theophylact Euthymius and others In this sort the Church is eternally directed so the Church directed cannot erre Matth. 18. 17. It is commaunded by authoritie Tell the Church and heare the Church No good proofe the Church cannot erre For the Scribes and Pharises were to be heard and obeyed yet had no assurance of infallibility Kings and Princes are to be obeyed yet haue they fallen into great enormities Ephes 5. 27. the Church is said to be glorious without spot or wrinckle or blame which is to be vnderstood de toâ—o integrato of the parts in Heauen and earth Of the time to come rather than present Without blame yet not without wrinckle euen here for error may be where blame is none Esay 9. 7. the Kingdome of Christ is to be established with iudgement and with iustice for euer and yet I know no such priuiledge annexed to iudgement or iustice of infallibility No more then Ezech. 37. 26. to a Couenant of peace an Euerlasting couenant to multiplying of them or placing Gods Sanctuary amongst them for euer Luk. 22. 32. and Matth. 23. 3. What correspondency haue they one with another not to speake of reference vnto the poynt In the former Peters faith was prayed for that it might not faile and yet Peter denied Christ Iesus If Peter were not the Church what maketh this Text amongst the rabbâ—e If Peter were the Church may erre as Peter fayled though not eternally one or other In the latter the Pharises must be heard And therefore will you say they erred not If they erred as doubtlesse they did then to what purpose are they pretended for not erring of the Church Much good may the
Pharises doe your Church 1 Pet. 2. 9. The Church is styled a chosen generation a royall Priesthood an holy nation a peculiar people glorious titles but nothing to this They cannot erre Iohn 17. 17. Gods word is truth I graunt But is Gods Word euer in the mouth of man The Apostles were sanctified and that in Gods truth according vnto Christs Prayer Yet after this Prayer Peter went not right when Saint Paul reproued him he fell and that foulely in denying Christ That which is sanctified is accepted not euer so sanctified as without spot As for 1 Cor. 11. 25. if the Institution or rather Commemoration of the institution of the holy Communion be a proofe sufficient that the Church cannot erre wee yeeld the cause if nothing to purpose what meant this idle pate to range it heere What the man would say in Psalm 101. 23. 20. or whether hee would send vs after mistaking there I cannot tell and till then I cannot answere For not so much as neere thereabout is ought to purpose of not erring Ephes 2. 20. Wee reade that they were built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets And what then Could they not erre Dare you say so They could for they haue and are shaken off from that foundation but so long as they stood on fast they erred not holding one Faith one Lord one Baptisme Eph. 4. 5. which if you and we doe at this day by your owne argument auoid it if you can we erre not As for one heart and one soule of the belieuers Act. 4. 32. it is in reference of loue one to another not in vnity of Doctrine all with one another And yet there were differences in that vnion for example sake inter Paul and Barnabas and might be disproportion in their Doctrine as dissimilitude in the habitude and condition of those sheepe in one sheepe-fold vnder one Shepheard and yet all heare the Shepheards voyce Iohn 10. 16. and hee that will not heare some of those Sheepe Luc. 10. 16. be taxed for not regarding the Shepheard when as yet for all that some of those Sheepe be gone astray To conclude The Church cannot erre neither collectiue nor representatiue Thus your Masters distinguish the termes of this question that goe workman-like and not like you clutteringly to worke So they so wee In the largest extent not erre at all Secondly not erre in poynts of Faith For in matters of fact they confesse errour Faith is fundamentall or accessory There none is here error may accrew Fathers to be seene you afford vs none Not because there are none but because your reading could supply none Who take vp all vpon retaile and credit hauing so small store at home The Church cannot erre is most true and the Church may erre is as true each part considered as it ought V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible IT may be some priuate opinions haue runne vpon inuifibility of the Church which are no doctrinall decisions nor to be imputed vnto the resolued Doctrine of the Protestants that are of another minde Nunquam est quod nusquam videtur That which cannot be seene if it be seeable is no where at all nor in being For as Saint Augustine well said Quo modo confidimus ex diuinis liter is accepisse nos Christum manifestum si non accepimus Ecclesiam manifestam How is it possible wee should hope to haue Christ manifest in Scripture except wee haue likewise the Church manifest Therefore on all hands it is resolued the Church hath euer beene visible since there was a Church In England especially how can this fellow impute inuisibility to vs who claime and proue a succession and therefore needes a visibilitie from the time of the Apostles If any doe thinke otherwise or cannot doe this we vndertake no patronage at all of them The Church is a City seated on a Hill which is naturally visible though in a fogge or mist not discerned There euer was and will be a Church vnto whom complaints may be made though the Church doth not euer heare complaints Those that haue fell vpon an inuisibility may perhaps be tollerated if well interpreted and vnderstood For euen the visible Church in her more noble parts may be said to be inuisible First the Saints triumphant and now regnant with Christ are parts of the Church in largest extent Who being in Heauen are vnknowne their persons proprieties and indowments The Saints militant her more excellent parts on Earth according to her more royall indowments the Elect according vnto purpose of Grace are knowne onely vnto God alone the searcher of secrets and decipherer of thoughts Such as be secret occultò intus are there not visible vnto man In this sence in regard of these parts the Church is and is esteemed inuisible and so held euen of the Papists themselues Otherwise then so wee doe not speake of inuisibility So that the man must fall foule with his owne part or be at warre with his owne wits Moderate men on both sides confesse this controuersie may cease Et quamuis praesens haec Ecclesia Romana non parum in morum disciplinae integritate adde etiam in doctrinae sinceritate ab antiquâ illâ vnde orta deriuata est discesserit tamen eodem fundamento doctrinae sacramentorum à Deo institutorum firma semper constitit communionem cum antiquâ illâ indubitatâ Christi Ecclesiâ agnoscit colit Quare alia diuersa ab illâ esse non potest tametsi multis in rebus dissimulis sit Manet enim Christi Ecclesia sponsa quamuis multis erroribus vitijs sponsum suum irritauerit quamdiu à Christo suo sponso non repudietur tametsi multis fâ—agellis ab ipso castigetur As for our Gagger hee is interessed happely otherwise In standeth him in hand to vphold and foment a faction lest for insufficiency otherwise hee turne Host and sell Bottle-Ale That mustie obiection as hee calleth it of Elias may doe him some pleasure at that time I adde no more touching this proposition because it is but lost labour VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publique seruice of the Church to be in a tongue not vnderstood of all the Assistants NO doubt Contrary to our owne Bibles in such sort that if the Protestants be not gagged now their mouthes are wider than Gargantuaes and their lips somewhat like to Germans that were nine mile asunder Certes neuer so foyled by texts of Scripture since Luther went out to this day Therefore expedite tabulas Chrysippei sophi For heere you haue a singular piece of worke indeede The Church of England directed not onely by the light of Israel the Word of God but also perswaded by common sense and reason hath and hath had her Seruice the publique prayers and Liturgie of the Church in a knowne tongue vnderstood of all that are present there ordinarily This is contrary to their
from all thy sinnes If this be acknowledged the Doctrine of our Communion Booke and practice of our Church accordingly as it is iniurious are those opposites vnto truth and lyers against their owne knowledge that impute it to vs which wee are confessed to deny That none but God can forgiue sinnes This must proceede out of faction or that which is worse But this fellow proceedeth vpon a further extreamity to strengthen a truth in it selfe with a lye made by himselfe that our Doctrine is contrary to our Bibles Matth. 9. 3. 8. To proue against vs that which we deny not viz. this power delegated vnto Priesthood thus you alledge But when the multitude saw it they maruailed and glorified God who had giuen such power vnto men as to forgiue sins Which words As to forgiue sinnes are not in our Bibles out of which you vndertake to proue your Assertion Nor in your owne Bibles follow which you will You haue added them out of your store to serue your owne turne contrary to Scripture and further contrary to sense Because that thing which amazed them then for which they glorified God was a thing sensible visible apprehended of all When they saw it Now see sinnes forgiuen they could not heare it pronounced belieue it they might Secondly the power there giuen is not ordinary as that of absolution is but extraordinary and miraculous to heale the sicke Peter and his Successour had that but very few or none had this You know it was answered a Pope once when he shewed a masse of Gold and Siluer to one and added The Church could not say now Siluer and Gold haue I none No quoth the other Nor can it say Arise and walke This is that power there mentioned could you see it not that of Absolution ordinary That of Ioh. 20. 21. Matth. 16. 19. Giue that power vnto the Apostles to forgiue sinnes But may it not be excepted it was a personall priuiledge I answere not so for I belieue it not The collation was originall to them as to those from whom it was to be conueyed vnto others But some are happely of that opinion and it may seeme probable vnto others you should haue cleared the Texts of that obiection and then your performance had beene to purpose Matth. 16. 19. May be vnderstood you meane of sinnes forgiuen but yet only secondarily for thesi secunda Because we reade in the Euangelist whatsoeuer and not whomsoeuer this place is to be vnderstood of any knot whatsoeuer indeede rather of the power of the sword than of the keyes And it seemeth that if this place be not personall to Peter and his successors as by this allegation for forgiuing it neither is nor can be then our most holy Father hath lost a maine pillar of his Papacy peculiar to Saint Peter and his successours So these Madianites sheath their swords one in anothers sides and crosse themselues in their owne positions In Matth. 18. 18. The Text is so expresse to the purpose that Origen Chrysostome Theophilact and Anastasius vnderstand it of all Christians whomsoeuer that sundry Roman Catholiques if Maldonate deceiue vs not vnderstand it of no more than ciuill policy Goe take it Whatsoeuer you binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen and whatsoeuer you loose in Earth it shall be loosed in Heauen as your selues will for the power and execution of the keyes Wee deny not in any sort that power is giuen vnto mortall men to forgiue sinnes on earth nor to binde by excommunication which is frequently practised and peraduenture too frequently amongst vs. Vnto that 1 Cor. 5. 5. Artic. 33. thus wee subscribe That person who by open denunciation of the Church is rightly cut off from the vnity of the Church and excommunicated ought to be auoyded and to be taken of the whole multitude of the faithfull as an Heathen and a Publican vntill hee be openly reconciled by penance and receiued into the Church by a Iudge that hath authoritie thereunto And in this sort Saint Paul deliuered Hymenaeus and Alexander 1 Timoth. 1. 20. and forgaue the incestuous Corinthian 2 Cor. 2. 10. Which places by your direction wee haue seene and finde the Article agreeing with them As for 2 Cor. 5. 19. It is not to purpose of forgiuing sinnes by delegated authority vnto a Priest but of Reconciling by the whole office and function of the ministry God was in Christ saith the Apostle and reconciled the world vnto himselfe not imputing their sinnes vnto them and hath committed to vs the word of reconciliation So wee haue seene eyther nothing at all to purpose or else that of which wee made no question nor yet doe any at all As little in Fathers that affirme the same Irenaeus Lib. 5. cap. 14. saith the raising of Lazarus from death to life was a Symbole or figure of our Resurrection from Sinne to God Hee saith no more that I can see or finde Ambrose Lib. 1. it should be de paenitent cap. 7. Nor August Tract 49. in Iohn Nor Gregor hom 26. in Euangel if wee may belieue Bellarmine Lib. 3. de paenitent cap. 3. from whom you transcribed these testimonies without considering of these Fathers in their owne workes but so carelessely that if you were a Schoole-Boy lures in corpore for you referre vs to Gregor hom 26. in Euangel Whereas Bellarmine hath it 6. and to Ambrose Lib. de paenitentia as if Saint Ambrose had written but one Booke of that Argument not diuided into Chapters whereas Bellarmine directed you aright to the seauenth Chapter of his 1. Booke Was this securitie stupiditie or insolency in you or what was it XII That wee must not confesse our Sinnes but onely vnto God THat wee must not implyeth a flat negatiue or iniunction rather vnto the contrary Shew mee any such inhibition and I will say which I belieue you neuer will deserue at any Protestants hands you are a true dealing and an honest man Otherwise you are that you are and so will be still The most that hath beene saide is that priuate confession is free not tyed and therefore suus positiui not diuini Therefore happely of conueniency not of absolute necessity That in a priuate Confession vnto a Priest a peculiar enumeration of all Sinnes both of commission and omission with all circumstances and accidents is neuer necessary necessarily most an end not expedient nor yet all things considered required It is confessed that all Priests and none but Priests haue power to forgiue sinnes It is confessed that priuate Confession vnto a Priestâ— is of very ancient practice in the Church of excellent vse and practise being discreetly handled Wee refuse it to none if men require it if neede be to haue it We vrge it and perswade it in extreames Wee require it in case of perplexitie for the quieting of men disturbed and their consciences It hath beene so acknowledged by your fellowes that in the visitation of the sicke it is
bono morali and no more It may tend to Piety I grant but it is not intentione primâ and directly it is onely occasionally as else-where 1 Cor. 9. Am I not free or Acts 5. Was it not in thy Power That of Deuter. 30. 19. is more to purpose I call Heauen and Earth this day to record against you that I haue set before you life and death blessing and cursing therefore choose life that both thou and thy seede may liue For this is directly in point of Piety and performance of duty immediate vnto God Neither was it spoken to men according to generall notion of them and their generall state in case of alienation from God in state of Nature onely and Naturall endowments of which it is consented I thinke They cannot choose life but to men preuented by Grace called to Life assisted with much and many concurrances of Grace This is not contrary to our Tenent as is plaine in the Article before alleaged That of Ioshua 24. 15. is to the same purpose almost in the very same words one answere will serue to both The Article denieth free-will quoad points of Pietie to mere naturall men onely in the state of deprauation but auoucheth it in state of Grace with concurrence of Assistance Ecclesiasticus 15. 14. is not to purpose The wise man speaketh of what was not what is in the state of innocency before the fall not of deprauation being falne God from the beginning made man and left him in the hand of his owne counsell In 2 Sam. 12. I finde not for freewill but onely this Verse 17. that Dauid would not eate meate but refused it which place if ignorantly alledged proueth this fellow as hee hath beene discouered often a plaine blunderer if with aduise a shamelesse slanderer that would impute vnto Protestants such a sencelesse assertion that man had not free-will to eate if hee would for such is the inference vpon that allegation In Matth. 23. 37. There is an opposition of mans wilfulnesse vnto Gods will God would haue called Iudah Iudah would not therefore freely men renounce the calling of Grace and freely runne themselues without any absolute irreuersible decree vpon Perdition which I graunt being the purpose and intent of those succeeding Texts of Scripture with many moe to purpose in Gods Booke How this is done how farre it extendeth I list not to dispute It is for Schooles not for Pulpits searching wits are at stand therein common capacities must not be surcharged with it It is wilfulnesse or more to deny free-will and it is wisdome and truth to deny free-will To deny the being is so And I wish with Scotus in 1. dist 39. that a man so wilfull were well cudgelled vntill hee confessed it stood in mans power to desist from beating him But to giue such an absolute sway to free-will as many doe is little lesse than flat impiety against God against Saint Paul I am sure It is not of him that willeth or him that runneth Truth is in the middle betwixt two extreames euermore and here also What the Fathers teach wee know and where they exceede interpret them gently as you also doe For take them at large and they lauish so farre sometime that your greatest Patrons of free-will dare not ioyne issue with them not as if those worthie lights did any way faile or darkenesse possessed their cleare vnderstandings but being to deale against fatall necessity of the Pagans against impieties of the Manichees to cleare that imputation of belieuing without further enquiry of resolution they extended the power of freewill to the vtmost especially hauing then no cause to feare ante mota certamina Pelagiana there being no Pelagius yet risen vp in the world an enemy of Grace and aduauncer of Nature beyond degrees of power or possibility Thus your selues acknowledge as well as wee and therefore to Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian Epiphanius and who hath much more to purpose than all the rest together Chrysostome though you name him not because you knew it not and to Augustine also in his former writings it might so be answered that they spake of free-will not in respect of Grace but of Nature yet I will particularly fall in with you to each seuerall Father in his order Irenaeus Lib. 4. cap. 7. hath these words as your Informer C. W. B. setteth them downe Almightie God hath put in man a power of Election as well as he hath done in the Angels And againe cap. 72. If it were not in our power to doe or not to doe these things what cause had the Apostle and long before that our Lord himselfe to giue vs counsell what to doe and from what to abstaine This latter testimony is not in the Gagger His Master hath it and I alledge it to let all Catholiques see what an Ideot this poore animall is C. W. B. hauing produced these two Texts of Irenaeus cited in his Margin lib. 4. cap. 7. and ibid. cap. 72. This goose because hee would not gagge vs too much made choyce of one and wisely too for by errour of the Printer it was put cap. 7. in which Chapter is nothing to purpose not a word of Angels or of free-will whereas it should haue beene cap. 71. Which hee not knowing because hee hath all by retaile a poore fellow that I thinke knoweth not who Irenaeus was followed the errour of the Printer and so sent vs to see nothing there But let him passe To the place I answere Irenaeus attributeth vnto man as hee may free-will before and after his fall but so after as with Grace to men in state of Grace The discourse is long and to purpose but mis-alledged heere and mis-applyed by the Gagger Epiphanius how commeth hee in betwixt Irenaeus and Tertullian being so much younger than eyther of them especially rightly disposed in the Instructor Howsoeuer I answere that hee there disputeth against the Pharises one of whose opinions was that all things came to passe through fatal necessity Which being so there can be no choyce nor free-will But experience sheweth and Scripture cleareth it there is free-will therefore fatall necessitie is not at all As true as Gospel Nothing touching vs who graunt it as much as themselues doe that obiect thus vnto vs. Tertullian in his second Booke against Marcion the Chapter you knew not because you were not told for your Instructor had it not It is Chapter V. discourseth thus He proueth against Marcion that God created all things out of goodnesse because hee was good Nor was the fall of man any worke of his at all but to be imputed vnto free-will A power and facultie originally in man according to Gods goodnesse and mans nature and condition Who could not haue deserued well or ill nor haue beene punished or rewarded except hee had beene left vnto his owne choyce and not necessitated vnto either Thus he at large and thus also we Contenting himselfe with the generall being working and
peccare nequid 〈…〉 deterius fiat Salomon denique Saul caeteri multi quam diu in vijs Domini ambulauerunt datam sibi gratiam tenere potuerunt recedente ab ijs disciplinâ Dominica recessit gratia Goulartius here talketh to no purpose in the Cloudes totally or finally it skilleth not the Grace of God departed away from them therefore they lost their Faith in Saint Cyprians iudgement by which they stood at first in Gods fauour And in Nazianzens too who writeth thus of Saul in his Apologie vnto his Father Pag. 37. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Annoynted hee was and made partaker of the holy Spirit and then at that time was Spirituall I dare not speake otherwise of him Nay more then so hee prophecyed And yet for all that because hee suffered not himselfe to be wholy and entirely directed by the Spirit nor became perfectly and sincerely another man what neede I relate the Tragicall end which hee vnder-went Saint Hierome forsaketh not his Masters direction Lib. 2. aduersus Pelagianos Ne beatum dixeris quempiam ante mortem Quamdiù enim viuimus in certamine sumus quamdiù in certamine nulla est certa victoria Call no man happy vntill he be dead So long as we liue wee are to striue and contend so long as there is opposition against vs so long we are not assured of the victory And else-where against Iouinian he teacheth that vntill a man repent Faith is cast off by sinne and the party in disfauour with God Saint Augustine proposeth it as an Article of his Creede de Corrept gratiâ 13. Credendum est quosdam de filijs perditionis non accepto dono perseuer andi vsque in finem in fide quae per dilectionem operatur incipere viuere aliquandiù fideliter iustè viuere posteà cadere neque de hac vitâ priusquam eis id contingat auferri And againe Ad quam vocationem pertinere nullus est homo ab hominibus certâ asseueratione dicendus nisi cum de hoc saecule exierit In hac autem vitâ humanâ quae tentatio est super terram qui videtur stare videat ne cadat And lastly Gregory Lib. 6. in primum Regum Quia Iudicium omnipotentis Dei imperscrutabile est vnde veniat quo vadat homo nescit quia sciri non potest an quis in gratia quam recepit perseuerare in perpetuum debeat Because the Iudgements of GOD Almighty are vnsearchable man doth not know either whence hee commeth or whether hee goeth because it cannot be knowne whether a man shall euer stand without falling in that Grace which hee hath receiued It was a Stoicall paradox grounded vpon their fatall necessity and concatenation of Causes that vertues once had cannot be lost at all Seneca thus in his 50 Epistle Semel tradidi boni possessio perpetua est Non dediscitur virtus Fideliter sedent quae in locum suum veniunt Good once had is held for euer in possession Vertue is not againe to bee learned For what thing soeuer hath obtained the proper place resteth therein without alteration If any such necessity be inferred by any it is but opinion not decision priuate opinion not publique resolution which a man may follow or abandon at pleasure not to be blamed for resolution So or so In course of Christianity and seruice of God Finis coronat actus It is the end that crowneth the Act. In mans profession of Loue Feare and Obedience of God Nilâ—praesumitur esse actum dum restat aliquid ad agendum The Law presumeth nothing at all is done so long as resteth any thing to be done Non quid egeris sed quid supersit curandum si dixisti Sufficit Defecisti It is not respected what is already performed by them but what remaineth yet vnfinished If thou say it is enough thou art fallen off and faintest For Leuit 22. Euer the tayle of the whole burnt Offering was offered Many begin to build but doe not all set vp the roofe Many thousands came out of Aegypt but few of them passed ouer Iordan Asa was good till the goâ—te vexed him Ionathan followed the Chace till hee met with Honey Many are good till they haue cause to be badde and then vertunt omnia ad extremum They end in the flesh that begun in the Spirit The Conclusion of all is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A man is not happy so long as hee liueth because it is vncertaine what shall become of him saith Saint Basil vpon the first Psalme These are the resolutions of many if not most Protestant Diuines as priuate men of Protestant Churches in their Decisions and Resolutions I am sure the Church of England doth not tender it to be taught or belieued that Faith had cannot be lost againe Priuate opinions of men are no Gospels of the Church I am of this opinion another is of that I maintaine Faith cannot be lost totally or finally another verily perswadeth himselfe it may be lost both totally and finally Hee that once was in regard of iustifying Faith and Grace the Childe of God may become the Childe of Sinne Wrath Death Hell and Destruction to neither of these doe I subscribe as de fide being vndecided vndetermined in the Church Lei euery man abound in his owne sense and vnderstanding what is it to mee so be it hee keepe Faith Peace Charitie and a good Conscience The very Church of Geneua it selfe as I was told by one of the chiefe Ministers thereof doth not maintaine these priuate opinions of the principall Pastors of that Church So that what honesty can there be in this rambling Companion who ranketh it with the Errours of the Protestants That Faith had cannot be lost Which if it were an errour as I dispute not that is as much or more opposed by Protestants as propugned As much refelled by Protestants as Papists Sir Gagger to let the World see your ignorance or impudency or both I haue laide these parts together out of Protestant Diuines I iustifie no priuate opinions Those that hold the one or other are old enough let them answere for themselues And so I proceede XXI That God by his will ineuitable decree hath ordained from all eternity who shall bee damned and who saued DAmned and Saued diuide Mankinde Not any hath come forth of the loins of Adam but as this Gaggler will himself confesse is necessarily ranged in one of these Ranks either with the Damned or the Saued Sheep or Goats vpon the left hand or the right But he whosoeuer that is é censa damnandorum vel saluandorum finally and eternally damned or saued as one day actiuely all shall bee is so damned or saued not without God's will according to the purpose of his decree at least consequent though not antecedent who doth whatsoeuer hee will in heauen and earth who worketh all things according to the counsell of his will the highest Rule supremest Law nothing
meaning our dreaming We beleeue confesse of Holy Angels They can will haue doe help vs ordinarily extraordinarily toties quoties they are employed as the mighty Executioners of the Almighties will for his seruants against his foes And yet see the pouerty of this fellowes vndertakings He is to prooue that Angels can help vs. His first proofe is Daniel 10. 13. Michael one of the chiefe Princes came to help mee I question not the meaning of that Text. I yeeld it But I maruaile this fellowe can set it downe Angels help vs and come in with this proofe which should bee expresse and therefore name Angels where Princes not Angels are remembred and so remembred as sensu primo they may bee taken for some temporall Potentate some of the Satrapaes of the King of Persia But the Prince of the Kingdome of Persia withstood mee twenty daies but lo Michael one of the chief Princes came to help mee and I remained there by the Kings of Persia are these words expresse for Angels helping They are I grant for their help but farre from expresse which are so mysticall That of Acts 12. in Saint Peter's case is indeed expresse and nothing can be more plaine for proofe then that place which representeth a performance of that delegation Hee hath giuen his Angels charge concerning thee a thing neuer questioned denied doubted dreamed of by any Protestant that I know To proue himselfe an honest man it were good this accuser would name the man But somewhat there is in it though he cannot tell what We deny to addresse our selues in time of need vnto Angels for mediation or intercession and we doe deny it because we hold it needlesse vnnecessary as no part of our duty as vnbehoouefull to no purpose because we are perswaded that ordinarily in euery exigent at all times no Angel not attendant without remoue can take notice of vs vnderstand our state instantly pitty vs in misery and so relieue vs. This is not for any inualidity of power nor for auersnes of will If they know it they are willing if willing they are sufficient The want proceedeth not from them it is from disability in ourselues to acquaint them ordinarily with our states which needs wee must doe if wee will looke that they should help vs. This is that which this fellow should pitch vpon but then he were gon and not able to say bough to a Goose now hee hath somwhat to say at least and make a shew amongst the Gaggle though it be with a loud lye that They cannot help vs as we say And yet we haue a shew of Fathers and are sent to see first Iustin Martyr Apol. 2. and no more C. W. B. This mans founder hath these words The host of the good Angels we worship and adore Which if it were so is not concerning any thing that hath beene said touching Angels by this Gaggler hitherto But C. W. B. had it from Bellarmine and he followed I know not what translation The Text of Iustin Martyr page 137 of Robert Steuens edit in Greeke is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We confesse saith that Father that we are Atheists in regard of any worship that wee giue vnto those esteemed Gods but not so in respect of the true God him and his Sonne that came from him and hath taught both vs these things and also the Host of good Angels that are different from the other bad that followed him and were likened vnto him as also the Spirit of propheticall predictions we worship and adore honouring them in verity and in truth This is the Text of Iustin meant by this man word for word related in his owne language as he did write and expressed thereout punctually And now Sir what aduantage from Iustin Martyr What haue your Proselytes seen in him Your Translator Perionius mistook his Author and Bellarmine was glad to make aduantage of it and your Instructer took it as he found it As for your selfe I think you are innocent of all Otherwise then so it cannot bee taken For though wee should yeeld it Angels are to bee worshipped yet not with diuine worship your selues confesse with such as is due vnto God alone But if any worship bee giuen them heer it is point par point that which is due to God See what it is to blunder so This was for worshipping of Angels S. Ambrose succedeth in his Book de Viduis for praying vnto Angels So the man flits to and fro Angels are to be beseeched who are deputed our Guardians therfore not all Angels but onely Guardians And is this to purpose Angels pray for vs or We may pray to them indefinitely But I let the rest alone I haue answered else-where these and other places and whatsoeuer other beside these haue hitherto come to my knowledge from our opposites in the point of inuocation XXVII That no Saint deceased hath afterward appeared to any vpon earth I Doo not belieue you that you can name any Protestant that wil defend this That no Saint deceased hath appeared after death Your word is no Gospell It is a Catholique Trick now-a-daies to cog and lie to cast any aspersion vpon Protestants If you haue met with some such it had been well you had named vs the men Your luck and experience hath been better than mine I neuer yet met with any such Deniers Perhaps in your ranging vp and downe you haue met with some ignorant simple people that hearing your talk of Apparitions thought you coniured and not knowing the meaning of the word would not beleeue you vpon any hand and as your custom is you publish it for the doctrine of the Protestants that No man euer appeared no not extraordinarily after death But to purpose We may conceiue your meaning two waies eyther as in common course of kinde or else vpon extraordinary course Apparitions haue been and may be but as works of wonder dispensations of the right hand of the most High Apparitions are not ordinary nor of common dispensation And infinite impostures iuggling tricks and collusions haue beene obtruded at all times vpon the world especially within the last 500 yeeres by coozening cheating knaues vnder vaile and couert of Apparitions principally to delude poore superstitious people with that opinion of Purgatory to make merchandize of the pardons But why not as probable that some Saints haue appeared from Heauen as some Popes haue come from Hell Both at Gods good pleasure extraordinarily who doth all things as hee will in Heauen and Earth What if The soules of the Righteous be in the hands of God are his hands so shortned that no where but in Heauen they can bee in his hands God may send them no doubt extraordinarily No cessation of pain is to the one no impairing of happinesse vnto the other they carry their heauen and hell about with them wheresoeuer they be So that in no diuersity of opinion we might well passe-by your Texts to
no purpose And indeed to no purpose for Mat. 17. 3. we read There appeared vnto them Moses and Elias talking with them which apply to your Thesis No Saint deceased hath appeared vnto any and aduise how handsomely it agreeth thereto For doo you not knowe or haue you heard of it that Moses by some Authors is reputed not dead as by Hillary Can. 20. vpon Mathew by Saint Ambrose in his second Book of Cain Abel but translated by God into Paradise as Helias was afterward asserted of late by no Babies of your owne Ioh. Arboreus lib. 11. Theosophias and Ambrose Catharine vpon Gen. 3 If that bee so you may go seek a new Text to prooue apparitions of dead men by It will be answered These were not dead For if Moses be liuing Elias is sure you hold him yet aliue and why not both aliue seeing both must come and oppose against Antichrist and bee slaine by him before Dooms-day Mend your conclusion and make it thus Therefore Saints haue appeared to some on earth and I will warrant no man will quarrell your assertion But your second Text of Mat. 27. 52. cometh home to your minde They were Saints indeed deceased but restored to life and peraduenture vnto eternall life in bodies as well as soules They appeared vnto many the Text is plain and I beleeue you neuer met with any such that when you shewed this Text would deny their appearing which is expresse And yet it is not well applied by you for your apparitions as I conceiue it inform me if I doo mis-take you are not in bodyes restored to life or raised vp out of the dust but in bodies assumed or some other way These men appeared in their owne bodies which were laid into and rose vp out of the graues and so not very fitting your purpose As for Onias the high Priest who beeing dead appeared vnto Iudas Macchabeus let him iustifie it that hath written it If he report the story as it was very good it may be done I see nothing to the contrary if not true no great hurt at all your puling-whining soules in Purgatory get nothing by the bargaine That some Saints deceased haue appeared For these were in Heauen of which there is constat for their appearing at least prooue you they were in Purgatory to which your apparitions tend But the truth is there are many Schoens Parasangs betwixt those wōdrous works of God and those iuggling tricks in the Romane Church deuised onely to make the Priests pot to seethe and fill the Popes purse by collusion XXVIII That the Saints deceased know not what passeth in the Earth SPeake out and speak plaine What mean you by what passeth All things that are done on earth in al places at al times by all persons ordinarily of themselues or som saints som things in som places at some times by some persons extraordinarily by reuelation or some such like meanes No Protestant will deny the one no Papist hath hitherto dared affirme the other Dare you abide by it if you doe take vp the bucklers and see what will follow Your generall position will beare eyther interpretation Wee affirme that all Saints departed knowe something on Earth as namely The beeing of a Church That some Saints departed knowe something heere done extraordinarily by reuelation intimation or otherwise As your position is captiously put downe so is your first proofe from the Text of Luke 16. 29. Sophistically affixed There Abraham knew that there were Moses and the Prophets bookes in earth which hee himselfe had neuer seene Indeed Abraham was dead long before Moses wrote And after Moses wrote till the time that Abraham answered thus if it were an History and not a Parable were many mo hundred yeeres In all which time no Protestant will deny but Abraham might know when he was in Paradise that God had left such bookes vnto Israel Now this is not ad idem nor prooueth the question For your position is what passeth not what hath passed your proofe is for what hath passed and not for what passeth A maine difference betwixt these two I cannot tell what you intend to write next but I can tell you haue plaid the Goose in your Gag and hereafter when your worthy work putteth forth head to view I shall bee able to say what Animal it is Abrahā knew som 2000 yeers after his death Put the case so that Moses the Prophets were in the hands of the Iewes and directors of them in their course vnto God therefore Abraham knew what Rabbi Gamaliel taught Saint Paul such a day in his Auditory Is this a good consequence now in your Logick A coozener a cobler might reason so Yet this is your reason cap apee I answer directly First Abraham's case is not euery mans Secondly Abraham's knowledge might bee extraordinary our Quaere is of ordinary knowledge Thirdly Abraham might know in long tract of time which he could not so at an instant and wee make question of present knowledge for that is required vnto your purpose onely That which S. Augustine witnesseth we deny not that which we deny hee witnesseth not Hee witnesseth there that Abraham knew of Moses He telleth not how he came to know of Moses nor what Abraham or Moses can know touching vs. In the next as much ridiculous Iohn 5. 45 our Sauiour there telleth the Iewes thus Do not think that I will accuse you to my Father There is one that accuseth you euen Moses in whom you trust Vpon citing this Text it may seem the man was som what conscious that it was not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as it should bee expresse that the Thesis was of knowing what is done vpon earth the proofe of accusing vnto God in heauen Therefore to help it we haue an argument a consequence inferred vpon that Antecedent thus How could Moses dead 2000 yeeres before accuse those that were liuing if the Saints deceased knowe not what passeth in the earth If so then take heed that Moses accuse not you for a fool as very an one as euer went without the priuiledge of a bable who so childishly imagine that God set in iudgement the Iewes were arraigned euery mothers sonne And Moses did as the diuell with Iob came and accused them euery one in particular of euery crime committed for so it must be Doubtlesse Moses had worke enough to doe especially in those last worst tumultuous times You should haue let vs knowne who was of their Councell who their Aduocate against Moses and whether it came to a demurrer or not But good man Wiseacres learne of your Masters to take things aright By Moses is not vnderstood his person then in Paradise dead or aliue but Moses writings the Law of Moses that in which the Iewes did so much trust So it is not personall it is instrumentall his writings accuse you and will condemne you So Caietan Maldonate and who not or if personall Moses himselfe
why then thus they take it It is his office it will be performed by him at the Resurrection and day of Doome Moses then will stand vp and accuse you Any way take it it cannot conclude that Saints in Heauen do knowe by any ordinary course what passeth continually vpon earth What Saints are said to know and what not how many waies to what purposes and ends I could let the Reader see and gagge vp this gabbler for euer but I haue don it already elsewhere in that point to which this tendeth of Inuocation of which notwithstanding I must say som what heere for it followeth next in order XXIX That they pray not for vs. WEE say not so You either mistake vs or bely vs. The Saints pray for vs all in generall all Saints for vs or euery Saint for vs that is for the Church militant on earth You shall finde if you enquire that the Caluinists themselues as you call them or Puritans hold this I adde The Saints pray for vs in particular some particular Saint for some particular man in some speciall cause some time And to come more particularly to it The Question is not whether Saints departed doe pray vnto God that is confessed on both sides all Saints doe by prayer intercession supplication as well as thanksgiuing It is confessed they pray for others and for themselues too by all but this addle-pate who prates he knoweth not what and measureth other mens senses by his owne senslesnesse It is euident they doe Apocal. 6. 10. How long O Lord holy and true doest thou not iudge and auenge our bloud on them that dwell vpon the earth The fellow neuer heard that the soules of the Righteous pray for their consummation in glory such an infant is hee in these speculations which are so common Again it is not denied they pray for vs in regard of that Communion of Saints whereof this holy performance is a principall and main part for vs in generall out of fellow-feeling and commiseration of our miseries which themselues haue tasted in this valley of tears for their friends in particular whom they remember whose state they recommend vnto God in praier they hauing lost no endowment in their Soule in Glory which did accrue vnto them vpon Earth And as for Loue and Charity vnto their brethren which makes them so forward to do them good that is exceedingly enlarged there Monica Saint Augustine's Mother for instance departing this life before her Sonne I make no doubt being seateâ— in those Heauenly Palaces might and did remember her sonne on earth recommend his estate vnto our blessed Sauiour pray for him in generall his good Constancy Perseuerance and Confirmation in the course of his Christian Profession and Priestly Function and not onely so but might remember him in some particular occasions occurrences and actions with which in her life-time she was acquainted And yet Saint Augustine had nor could haue any warranâ— at all to pray vnto her for her remembrance of him or assistance in things that fell out afterwards after her death because there was not nor yet could bee any ordinary course certain whereby hee might acquaint her with his particulars after her death which is all in all for inuocation To come home to the point It should not be put as heer it is that they pray for vs for without question they doo and it is confessed by all Protestants that they doo pray for vs in generall all without limitation in particular in some cases But it should haue been specified when for what by what meanes and how they doo and doo not pray for vs but of these and such like necessary Inferences as these this Dreamer thought not or else would take no notice So hard a thing is it to knowe or set down the state of a Controuersie right so vnwilling at least men are to come to tearms of commerce and some agreement who minde nothing but faction and disturbance This being premised we proceed to see how contrary the Doctrine of the Protestants is vnto their owne Bible Apoc. 5. 8. our Bibles read thus The 24 Elders fell down before the Lamb hauing euery one of them Harps and golden Vials full of Odors which are the Praiers of Saints Heer 24 Elders are represented but in a vision Then who told this Smatterer in diuinity who they were It is exprest that these Odors were the Prayers of Saints but is it expressed who they were that presented them or what Prayers or what Saints The Praiers of Saints on Earth But then except a man be a Saint on Earth Intercession vnto Mediation of Saints in Heauen will doo him no good at all Presented by Saints in Heauen but Quo warranto For not because this vision was in Heauen represented therefore the Action and Actors intended were also heauenly and the thing represented no where done but there Such obscure Prophesies not yet vnderstood that you can say by any are neuer assumed for Proofs in point of Controuersie but of men that vphold a desperate forlorn cause for want of cleerer Proofs For the Text Irenaeus inclineth to take it of those Prayers which the Church of GOD offreth vpon Earth lib. 4. cap. 33 Quoniam ergo Nomen Filij proprium Patris est in Deo omnipotenti per Iesum Christum offert Ecclesia bene ait secundum vtraque in omni loco incensum offertur Nomini meo sacrificium purum Incensa autem Iohannes in Apocalypsi Orationes ait esse Sanctorum which is again repeated by that mvsticall Diuine Apocal. 8. And the smoke of the incense which are the Prayers of Saints went vp from the hand of the Angell before God No more is collected or can bee from these Texts but this that Prayer is compared to Incense according vnto that in the Psalm Let their Praier bee set forth in thy sight like incense and let the lifting-vp of their hands bee as the euening sacrifice But concluded it cannot be from these mysticall Visions that these Saints prayed vnto that Angell that the 24 Elders represented the Angels that those Praiers were addressed from men vpon Earth that the Vision expressed a thing ordinary and done that any man of discretion or vnderstanding in Diuinity or common reason would haue gone in hand to haue prooued a thing controuerted and obscure by that which is much more obscure as this Fellow doth In Macchab. 2. 15. 14. thus we read This is a louer of the Brethren who prayeth much for the people and for the holy City to wit Ieremias the Prophet and from thence the conclusion is Therefore they pray for vs. To weet you should haue added the Prophets or the Iewes Indeed in a Dream worthy no doubt to be beleeued verse 11. For so Iudas dreamed and you beleeue it and draw vs a Conclusion from your Dream thus Therefore they Ieremy and Onias if you will pray for vs In a Dream too So the Doctrine
is a Dream the proof a Dream a Dreamer related it a Dreamer recorded it and a Dreamer doth tell beleeue it So Qui amant ipsi sibi somnia fingunt men are apt to beleeue Dreams when the Dream is for their purpose Admit it no Dream let it be a story and res gesta Ieremy might wel pray for them in generall as hauing not forgot them in Heauen whom he did know vpon earth In some particular he might eyther by extraordinary relation or Diuine Reuelation or howsoeuer and yet you be farre enough from building your imagined deuice from thence that therefore we may pray vnto them if yet you were able to make it good how Ieremy then in Limbo for this was before Christ harrowed hell and therefore farre enough from God could pray for the Iewes as he is said who might as soone and as wel pray for themselues as he might and were in possibility to be heard as soone as he For the Text of Ier. 15. 1. Though Moses and Samuel stood before mee yet my minde could not bee towards this people I haue acquainted you with what I think thereof elsewhere You adde out of Bellarmine touching Hierom in his Comment vpon that place and Saint Gregory 9. of his Morals 12. that they gather how Moses and Samuel after their death both could and did sometimes pray for the same people Bellarmine addeth Chrysostome How is hee omitted Did you forget him for you looked vpon all alike secure what any of them or all of them said more then was tendred to your hands First Hierome in his Comment saith thus nor more nor lesse Hos enim legimus irae Domini pro populo restitisse et iam impendeniem auertisse sententiam Etsi inquit illi steterint vel in conspectu meo vel contra me quorum vni dixit Deus Dimitte me et percutiam populum istum tamen non exaudiam quoniam consummata sunt scelera populi delinquentis For wee reade that these men in the peoples case and their defence opposed against the wrath of God and put by the sentence ready to bee put into execution Although saith hee that these men shall stand eyther in my presence or against me vnto one of which God sometime said Let me alone and I will smite this people yet I will not heare because the sinnes of this wicked people are consummate Now from which of these words doth your wisdome collect that Hierome made his conclusion that Moses and Samuel beeing both dead could yet and also did pray for that people It is to bee gathered they did it sometime Sometime in their life they did it it may bee gathered because it is cleere But this beeing dead is a glosse of your owne an addition to Hierom that corrupteth Hierome It dropt from your pen hee hath it not That which is to bee collected from thence is If Moses and Samuel who liuing appeased Gods wrath to the people were now againe aliue and should pray for this people as sometime they did yet I would not bee intreated now of them as I was then nor giue way to their petitions as then I did because now The iniquity of the Ammonite is fully ripe the sinnes of this people are now consummate which then were but growing in the blade Your Horse or your Asse though like your selfe in vnderstanding would not so conclude if as Balaam's Asse once did the poore beast could speake as worthily you doe and like your selfe If an Horse or an Asse should pray c. You would haue said bray that is fitter for such an Animal as you Saint Gregory saith lesse Moral 9. 12. For he but onely repeateth the Text of Ieremie and enquireth why the Prophet did rather insist vpon Moses and Samuel then any other And his answere thereto is Because they especially prayed for their persecutors This is all that I can finde no prouender for your Asse or Oxe if you can meet with any more let me knowe it and you shall vnderstand my minde thereof onely this almost forgotten in him though I put it home to you before not much to your purpose noâ— thank-worthy that Saint Gregory did not dreame as Iudas Macchabeus did of any Intercession by dead men but concâ—iued it thus that if they were then liuing they should not preuaile with God as they had done sometimes Quid est ergo in difficultate deprecandi Mosen et Samuel deducere nisi apertius indicare quia eius ira neque illi obsisterent si astarent What meaneth the Prophet to mention such difficultie in obtaining for Moses and Samuel but onely this to make is cleere that euen they should not abide or resist his wrath if they then stood before him as once they did Thirdly Chrysostome yet striketh it further dead against you which maketh me imagine some more aduised who had peraduenture looked on the place left out this testimony though Bellarmine had appealed to him For hee commeth home against you indeed To. 4. pa. 165. of our Eâ—on Edition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Short but sweet and to purpose Therefore if this man were now aliue and should speake thus hee should not for all that preuaile Doe you mark you haue wished vs to note more then once Were hee now liuing Nothing to purpose of hearing in Heauen or vnderstanding so wheresoeuer hee were This Text is for liuing not dead men for their Prayers not Intercession of these in opinion of Chrysostome Baruch 3. 4. thus wee reade O Lord Almighty thou God of Israel heare now the Prayers of the dead Israelites wee reade say you of the dead of Israel Therefore the dead Israelities prayed for the liuing that you had you been efemore Iacob might not absolutely turne foole These dead Israelites must needs then bee in Limbo when they prayed for their brethren Some information there they must needs then haue had by some Currire but who was Hee Qui fas per limen vtrumque solus habet that was so imployed vnto Limbus Patrum For the resolution of your Schooles is if Bellarmine doe not mis-informe vs That because the Saints and holy men who died before Christ came in the flesh did not enter into Heauen did not see God nor could by any ordinary meanes vnderstand the prayers of such as sued vnto them therefore it was not vsed in the old Testament to say Holy Abraham pray for vs but men prayed themselues by themselues vnto God and alleaged the merits of Saints that were already dead that by their merits their prayers might finde accesse Thus that great Vndertaker of all Protestant Aduersaries thereby cutting the throat of Inuocation Aduocation and Intercession in the old Testament putting you off from all your recited Texts at once of Baruch Ieremie Iudas Dream and all And what are you Pumillo to that great man-at-Armes What is your word that we should beleeue you The dead Israelites praied for the liuing You tould vs of Harps but euen
of the Sonne of man and drink his bloud you haue no life in you Lo without drinking no life euerlasting then poore deceiued Papists what will become of you you shall perish in your sinnes though your bloud shall bee required at the hands of your ignorant or rather deceitufll guides that thus mis-leade you from Christs Institution Luk. 24. 30 35. Christ at Emmaus communicated his disciples vnder one kinde Two things are insisted on out of these words as it appeareth by the laying downe First that this was actio sacra a Communion of the Body of our Sauiour then that it was done vnder one kinde this is taken as granted because there is no mention of drinking of Wine there is made mention of breaking the Bread Ignorants and wilfull take things amisse an ordinary Hebrew phrase it is in the Scriptures to eat bread to break bread for to eat and drink to take a refection or repast This man imagineth that all their meales were sicca conuiuia altogether without any liquor nor Wine nor Water vsed though in hot countries Such a foole would haue no other answer made vnto him but as Arisotle would haue made to him that should deny motion or that hee should neuer drink at his meales the best answer could possibly be made vnto him That it was actio sacra and not communis our Sauiour did celebrate the Communion of his Body and Bloud though I know it is controuerted for my part I will not contend at present I know it is held so by Augustine Theophylact and I adde too Beda and Hierome with others but take heede of the Precedent for if hee communicated onely Bread then I know not what vse of Wine at all there will bee in the blessed Sacrament For these were peraduenture of his Apostles but without all question of his Disciples and so had interest in the Cup if any had at all See more wee cannot Acts 2. 42. then we haue seene already mention made of breaking of Bread which is not exclusiue from drinking of Wine no more then 1. Cor. 11. 13. drinking doth exclude eating at all Poore shifts for Sacriledge and impiety of late made an Article of faith in the Church of Rome He that instituted the one ordained the other ioyntly both and at the same time with all circumstances alike if any aduantage is it is for Drink not for Eat For Drink you all of this saith the Author of the Sacrament hee saith not expresly Eat you all of this as foreseeing that impiety which in time humane presumption should bring-in vpon and against his owne institution fulfilled in the Church of Rome at this day XXXVII That Sacramental vnction is not to bee vsed to the sick VSe it if you will wee hinder you not nor much care or enquire what effects ensue vpon it but obtrude it not on vs or vnto the Church as in Censu of the Sacraments of the time of Grace as Baptisme is held and the Lords Supper Visible signes of inuisible Grace Powerfull instruments ordained by God to work in our Soules eternall Life by conueighing the meanes thereof vnto them Sacramental vnction call it if you please so farre as in the writings of the antient Fathers all Articles peculiar vnto our Christian faith and beliefe are sometime called Sacraments all duties of religious piety vnto God all diuine and Ecclesiasticall ceremonies are named Sacraments in which sense you might reckon not seuen but seuenscore if you were disposed to make a search for Sacraments In the Apostolicall and Primitiue Church it was a custome to anoint the sick with oyle to pray ouer them and so commit them vnto God This Saint Iames remembreth 5. 4. Is any sick among you Let him call for the Elders of the Church and let them pray ouer him anointing him with oyle in the name of the Lord. The Apostle doth not call it a Sacrament Sacramentall vnction as the Thesis proposeth and which is that should bee expresly prooued Our Bibles say the sick were anointed but not our Bibles nor theirs doe say that this anointing was a Sacrament And Fathers wee are not sent to see that proue it so the place is not to purpose as it is proposed Mar. 6. 13. is a Text defacto They anointed with oyle many that were sick and healed them but de iure there is not a word in that Text whether yea or no this Anointing should bee a Sacrament The Master of controuersies confesseth himselfe that it is not accorded whether in this Text or not Sacramentall vnction was instituted and himselfe is of opinion that it is not grounding on the resolution of the Councell of Trent to which all Papists are tyed to subscribe and yeeld and how dare you bring this as a proofe Now say the truth Sir Goose and shame the diuell How plain are these Texts that set your great Directors together by the ears Where were your sick wits that did not aduise you Take heed of falling foule with the Councel of Trent the cynosura of your faith Sure they were made of the pappe of an apple so easily they squeeze themselues out to nothing your great Dictators haue found hitherto but one direct Text Iames 5. 4. can we think your sharp sight should spy out three more a Fox or a Fearne-bush somewhat or nothing for Mat. 16. 18. Acts 28. 8. nor oyle nor vnction is remembred bare imposition of hands vpon the sick and diseased so that wee stand in some possibility heerafter to haue added an eightth Sacrament to the former seauen XXXVIII That no interior grace is giuen by the imposition of hands in the Sacrament of holy orders THis indeed is contrary vnto the expresse words of our Bible and therefore directly contrary to our Opinion Doctrine and Practice Can this fellowe bee so ignorant as not to know or rather so impudent as to deny that in giuing of holy orders we vse those memorable formall words of our Sauiour Receiue the holy Ghost Was euer man made Minister in the Church of England but in that sort with that forme Can hee deny that wee not onely practise it but propugne it command it to bevsed enquire of and punish the neglect opposition and contempt thereof What shall wee say to such a base detracting Varlet as shameth not in view of heauen and earth to deny the Sun shineth at noone-day Romane Catholiques I admire your patience that suffer such Hog-rubbers to leade you by the nose and make you beleeue the snowe is black Poore deceiued Soules trust no such Merchants that would sell you to the diuell for a morsell of bread and make you stand out vpon tearms of Separation for their owne aduantages against the Church as Schismaticks in which you liue and haue beene baptized XXXIX That Priests and other religious Persons or any others who haue vowed their chastity vnto God may freely marry notwithstanding their vowes TOuching marriage of Ministers this is our Doctrine resolued
also in his right â—its who in 5. against Marcion writeth thus Ascendit in sublimitatem id est Coelum Captiuam duxit captiuitatem id est mortem vel humanam seruitutem See then Fathers expounding it of nor Diuels nor Saued and yet this confident Ignorant that scarce euer read Father it is probable but who so bold as blinde Bayard pronounceth that These freed Captiues heer could bee no other than the soules of the Fathers whom Christ deliuered forth of hell because they were nor Diuels nor Saued in his opinion They were not Diuels very magisterially spoken and pro Imperio because this learned Theologue saith They were not Athanasius saith It was the Diuell that he captiued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hauing made captiue the Tyrant of captiuity To. 1. de salutari aduentu Iesu Christi and yet Athanasius neuer feared to be challenged for bringing back the Diuels into heauen vnto whom God Almighty had sworne in his wrath They should neuer more return into his Rest Might he not lead them along the aire and shut them our cast them off at heauen-gates Captiuity is actiuely or passiuely taken Those that held in captiuity or such as were held Christ led them both death and damnation the Diuell the graue the Chief and Principal in the dwellings of Ham the Commanders of the Prince of darknes of whom hee made a shew openly and triumphed ouer them in his flesh They might be the Righteous the Saued though you deny it that were formerly in captiuity vnto their enemies and now freed deliuered to serue Christ Iesus which the Fathers call if you euer read it a better captiuity whether you hould them in their right wits or no I knowe not I am sure your wits and wisdome are far asunder though no great substance in either Very farre or could it haue dropped from your penne They cannot be the soules of the Saued and yet Therefore they were the soules of the Fathers whom Christ deliuerd out of hell who peraduenture were not saued but cast into another hell being taken thence Goe learn to speak and write Sir giddy Goose-gagger and then vndertake to stop the Protestants mouthes You must not look to prate and talk idlely to them as you doo to your Proselytes poore fooles that are hood-winked willingly by each Buzzard to blinde obedience You may let these freed Captiues be these or those deliuered saued so or so you cannot inferre they were deliuered by Christ therefore they were freed out of hell Let them not haue been in heauen before our Sauiour I deny it necessary they were therefore in hell Hell is one thing saith Tertull. lib. 4. against Marcion Abraham ' s bosome is another thing For Abraham saith A great depth is betwixt these two Regions which permitteth not any to passe to and fro Neither could the rich man haue lift vp his eies but to places aboue him and farre aboue him by reason of that infinite distance betwixt that height and that depth That Region then I call Abraham ' s bosome which though it be not heauen is yet higher than hell Thus hee vpon warrant of our Sauiours words who placeth Abraham farre aboue that place of torment and so the one no part of the other And so likewise resolueth that profound Diuine Saint Augustine in his 99 the memorable Epistle to Euodius instantly rehearsed by the Discourser Non vtique sinus ille Abrahae id est secretae cuiusdam quietis habitatio aliqua pars inferorum esse credenda est Then without doubt the Bosome of Abraham which is an habitation of secret rest cannot be thought to haue been any part of hell You dare oppose Saint Augustine dare you not It is true which that illuminate Doctor auerreth in the same Epistle None but an Infidell will deny Christs descent into hell and as true that none but an Asse or an Idiot will say that therefore necessarily hee went thither to fetch vp the fathers that were there in hel Saint Augustine denieth them to haue been there it is plain and not denied by your Masters Indeed it is answered that Saint Augustine did not knowe what the besome of Abraham was but that hee applieth that Text Acts 2. 27. to the pains of Purgatory is but a coniecture at the best S. Augustine saith that Christ deliuered some from the pains of hell and interpreteth himself not to mean That of those holy soules that were in the Bosom of Abraham nor of the souls of the Damned that were in hell-torments out of which is no redemption Heerupon you think wisely he must needs mean the pains of Purgatory and no other It is the doctrine of your owne Schools that such as were raised at any time from death to life were not certainly doomed nor confined into their stations but in regard GOD foresaw they should liue again extraordinarily he suspended their determination this way or that way irreuocably Why might not Saint Augustine mean some such thing Without doubt he did not mean it of Purgatory For Saint Thomas 3. p. q. 52. ar 8. resolueth that the soules of Purgatory were not freed nor deliuered by Christs descent thither his merit extending vnto eternall deliuerance and vnto no partiall or temporall freedome But somewhat you would say though poor man you be to seek in the manifold labyrinths of Purgatory Limbus and Hell out of which wiser than you cannot winde The word Hell is ambiguous in the Writings of the Fathers Sometime it is put for the state and condition sometime for the place and receptacle of soules and that in a different manner in opposition to a twofold heauen For earth is respectiuely called Superi and the state of men liuing by the selfe-same name and so in opposition any Dead are Inferi and their place and receptacle Infernus Secondly Superi is the highest heauen and they that do liue there are so stiled In opposition heerto the name of Inferi hath a two fold interpretation First for a place or state contrary to the state and place of the highest heauen this is hell properly or of the Damned Secondly for a state or place negatiuely opposed and not contrary to heauen and so euery place and state which is not that highest in the highest heauen is called Inferi and may so be as Pamelius hath obserued vpon Tertullian lest you take it for a Protestant deuice This Fellow perchance knew not this before and therefore wheresoeuer the Fathers speak of Christ's descent into hell and carrying thence the Fathers into the highest heauens hee faineth Limbo vnto himself euen as the Bell tinketh whatsoeuer the foole thinketh when the Fathers meant nothing lesse then so but alteration of state and place See then as many places as the booke will hold They may prooue the descent of Christ into hell which as an Article of our Creed wee willingly embrace The descent to Popish Limbus they doe not prooue the which no Father euer dreamed of
therefore adore them make them Images as well you may and farre rather than a carued piece of wood by them giue relatiue honour vnto God This you cannot digest by any means for then your Idolomanie in Images with stocks and stones were clean dashed And yet if dead and insensible things bee to be honoured you cannot auoid the sequell doo you what you can Liue things may be much more honoured Vpon the same ground we are sent to adore the footstool of his feet Psal 99. 5. as common in your mouthes for Adoration as Ergo with boies in the schools as if an Image were Gods Footstool and so must be worshipped Indeed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an Image may bee for him to trample and tread vnder foot as he will doo in iust anger the Image and adorer of the Image that giueth his glory to a stock a stone So wee well may take you at aduantage if we will but wee take you at best as your self will Footstool you expound in the literall sense to be the Ark of Gods Testament as 1. Chron. 28. 2. not as Saint Augustine by Scripture too for the Earth or by anaiogic Christs body after Saint Ambrose as I remember Be it the Arke worship and adore it if you can finde it worship any thing like it any Image for it if you can bring so good warrant for your so doing your adoring thereof as is this Adore the footstoole of his feet Tu Prophetam imitare nee adores imagines nisi tibi Deus iusserit Do as the Prophet willeth Adore no Images vnlesse God command If God had commanded Israel notwithstanding that Precept of Eternall Morality Thou shalt not bow downe to them nor worship them to make Cherubins and to adore them Israel might haue done it yet could not you haue followed Israels example without sacriledge For peculiar priuiledges and dispensations take away no generall right nor reuerse an eternall lawe Adore you Images and spare not if you shew me such a Text as Adore the footstoole of his feet if it were an Image I adde If that footstoole be the Arke what is Mountayne ver last for as ver 5. we reade Adore we the footstoole of his feete so ver 9. we also reade Adore we his holy Mountayne What Images were in that holy Mountaine can you tell for which we are willed to adore it Some there were some there must bee your reason is no reason else thus Now the principall reason why the Arke was worshipped was in regard of the Images that were vpon it So that no question there were Images vpon that holy Mountaine otherwise the Prophet would not haue sent vs to adore it We read Adore his holy Mountaine we doe not read of Images vpon it therefore a Reason no reason much lesse principall is alleadged and fathered vpon S. Ierome But indeed that is a reason a principall one too the same in both places could you squint vpon it v. 5. For he is holy verse 9. For the Lord our God is holy Which reason held before in putting off Moses shooes The place is holy ground Holines of the Lord. The presence of God communicated this Holines vnto that place Adore his footstoole for he is holy Adore his Mountaine for he is holy Toward the Mountain where hee dwelleth Before his Footstoole where hee treadeth or in his Arke as in his holy Mountain as your owne Bibles if I mistake not read the place So take it as you will or as you can out of Arke will proceed no Image-worship nor yet from vpon the Arke any Images The Iewes did worship Images vpon the Ark. That is no warrant for you to do so nor yet precedent to take it so They worshipped Baalim and the Hostes of Heauen Milcom and Moloch Will you doe the like They burnt their children in the valley of Hinnon Would you be contented to be serued so I would I had the pow'r to dress you so to make you low a little louder out of that bul Such a wise collection as this Because there were Images vpon the Arke and because the Iewes did worship those Images therefore the Prophet tooke vp that admonition Adore the footstoole c. You bely the Iewes they did not worship them For they could not come to worship them The Arke was reuestried in the most holy place No Israelite came thither to adore it onely the High-Priest had accesse thither He onely once but one day in the yeare and but one time in that day And for any thing I yet know Saint Hierom saith it not in his Epistle to Marcella doe you meane or some other S. Hierom wrote many Epistles vnto Marcella in which of them all doth Saint Hierom say so Did you suppose that hee wrote but one It is more then probable you thought so Or if moe then one may we intreate you to tell vs in which of his Epistles hee saith so But I may mistake for I cannot tell what to make of in his Epistle to Marcellan When you speake more plaine I shall bee able to giue you a fuller answer till then I proceed From Images to I cannot tell what to giue vnto it but it is the name of Iesus somwhat strangely carried vnto Adoration Philip. 2. 10. That at the name of Iesus euerie knee should bowe of things in Heauen things in Earth andof things vnder the earth Vpon which premises the conclusion is Therefore Images are to bee worshipped So the name of Iesus is become an Image a strange kind of Image to my vnderstanding that a mans name should bee his image Imago is quasi Imitago you say which is not saith Sanders with Vasques approbation any similitude whatsoeuer but onely that which is expressed to represent the thing as the Picture of a long-eared beast doth an Asse Iesus printed or painted on a wall is no Image of our Sauiour much lessethe word pronounced conueighed to the eare which at least is if not the intire yet principall meaning of S. Paul Names are notes of things But names pronounced are but transeunt and names painted no Image Your Bottle-ale-wife caâ—â—el you so much that a Bottle is not the Image of a bottle and your Baker that his basket no representation of himselfe But to point Your vndertaking is for expresse words in our Bibles What expresnes in bowing the knee at the name vnto an Image made of what you will haue it Beside the name of Iesus is so farre from being expresse to proue it that it is not resolued what is meant by the name of Iesus heer By that name is meant the Glorie and Power of Iesus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith Chrysostom because al things are subiected vnto him as There is no other name giuen vnder heaueÌ„ by which we may be saued no Power no means beside or the name of Iesus is Iesus himselfe that is that at his name in effect vnto him euery knee should bowe as He that calleth