haue no relation vnto any place neither is it of the essence of any quantity to be actually circumscribed by a place but it is a property flowing out of the essence of one only kinde of quantity to be apt and fit to be circumscribed and compassed about with a place And naturally all bodies except the highest heauen haue one place out of which they passe as S. Augustine said when they come into another but by the omnipotent power of God any body may be separated from his place or be in as many places at once as it shal please God to seate it because to be circumscribed with a place actually is a meere accident vnto a substantiall body and without the nature of quantity and God may not without blasphemie be disabled to seperate a substance from an accident By this is confuted also his second instance Christ is ascended into heauen and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father therefore his body is not really and locally in the Sacrament This followeth not because it is in both places at once as S. Chrisostome in expresse tearmes teacheth Chris lib. 3. de Sacerd O miracle O goodnesse of God! he that sitteth aboue with his Father at the very same instant is touched with the handes of all men and giueth himselfe to them that will receiue and embrace him See more of this in the question of the blessed Sacrament where M. PERKINS citeth the very same authorities which he here repeteth see my answere to them there Thirdly he reasoneth thus In that we beleeue the Catholike Church it followeth that it is inuisible because thinges seene are not beleeued We answere that the persons in the Catholike Church are and euer were visible euen to Iewes and Heathens who persecuted them but the inward indowmentes of those persons that is their faith hope and charitie their assistance by Gods spirit and such like Christian qualities are inuisible and to be beleeued And euen as a man is truly said to be visible though he consist aswell of an inuisible soule as of a visible body so the Church is visible for the visible persons visible teaching and administring of Sacraments in it albeit the inward qualities of it be not visible His last objection against vs out of the Creede is That the articles of remission of sinnes resurrection of the body and life euerlasting containe a confession of speciall faith For the meaning of them is thus much I beleeue the remission of mine owne sinnes and the resurrection of mine owne body to life euerlasting Answere That is not the meaning vnlesse you adde some conditions to wit I beleeue the remission of my sinnes if I haue duly vsed the meanes ordained by our Sauiour for the remission of them which is after Baptisme the Sacrament of Penance Item I beleeue I shal haue life euerlasting if I keepe as Christ willed the yong-man to keepe Gods commandements or at the least if I doe die with true repentance Nowe whether I haue done or shall doe these thinges required of me I am not so well assured as that I can beleeue it for I may be deceiued therein but I haue or may haue a very good hope by the grace of God to performe them Neither is there any more to be gathered out of S. Augustine as some of the wordes by himselfe here alleaged doe conuince For he requireth besides faith that we turne from our sinnes conforme our will to Gods will and abide in the lappe of the Catholike Church and so at length we shall be healed See the question of certainety of saluation Note also by the way the vncertainetie of M. PER. doctrine Pag. 270. 275. concerning this point for he holdeth that it is not necessary to haue a certaine perswasion of our owne saluation but that it is sufficient to haue a desire to haue it and that doctrine he putteth there as he saith himselfe to expound the Catechismes that propound faith at so high a reach as fewe can attaine vnto yet here and else where the good man forgetting himselfe chargeth vs to crosse the Creede because we doe not wrest faith vp to so high a straine and so in heate of quarelling often expoundeth this contrary to his owne rule Nowe for proofe of S. Augustines opinion herein whome he only citeth take these two sentences for the two points he speaketh of For the first that we be certaine by ordinary faith of our saluation let this serue Of life euerlasting De bono perseuer cap. 22. De correct grat cap. 13. which God that cannot lie hath promised to his children no man can be secure and out of danger before his life be ended which is a tentation vpon earth Secondly that a man once truly justified may afterward fall We must beleeue saith this holie Father that certaine of the children of perdition doe liue in faith that worketh by charity and so doe for a time liue faithfully and justly they were then truly justified and yet afterward doe fall and that finally because he calleth then the children of perdition Thus much in answere vnto that which Master PERKINS objecteth against our religion out of the Creede which as you haue seene consisteth wholy vpon his owne forced exposition and vaine illations Hence he proceedeth to the tenne Commandements But before I followe him thither I may not omitte here to declare howe the Protestant Doctors doe fouly mangle and in manner ouer-turne the greatest part of the Creede Obserue first that according to their common doctrine it is not necessary to beleeue this Creede at all because it is no part of the written word secondly that Caluin doubteth whether it were made by the Apostles or no Cal. lib. 2. Instit cap. 16. sess 18 being then no part of the written word not made by the Apostles it must by their doctrine be wholy rejected Nowe to the particulers 1. Concerning the first article I beleeue in God the Father almighty maker of heauen and earth they doe erre many waies First they doe destroy the most simple vnitie of the God-head Confess fidei gener by teaching the diuine essence to be really distinguished into three persons If the diuine nature be really distinguished into three there must needes be three diuine essences or natures ergo three Gods Caluin also saith In actis Serueti pag. 872. that the Sonne of God hath a distinct substance from his Father Melancthon that there be aswell three diuine natures as three persons in locis de Christo Secondly they ouerthrowe the Father in the God-head by denying the Sonne of God to haue receiued the diuine nature from his Father as Caluin Beza and Whitakers doe See the Preface Thirdly howe is God almightie if he cannot doe all thinges that haue no manifest repugnance in them But he cannot after the opinion of diuers of them make a body to be without locall circumscription or to be in two places at once which notwithstanding some others of
their place that there dwell men who make more account of their Princes honour then they doe of Christes And that their meeting in that place cal it what you wil is rather to serue their Prince then to serue Christ. But I haue beene longer in their place of prayer then I thought I come nowe to the men that are elected to serue the Lord there Be not many of them for the whole corps I will not touch such as Ieroboam was glad to choose when he made a Schisme in Israel to wit de extremis populi qui non erant de filijs Leui not lawfull successors of the true Priestes but others of the baser sort of the people and them commonly that are notable either for ignorance or some other odde quality and must they not also fill their good patrons handes with some feeling commodity before they can gette a benefice And so beginning with simonie lincked with perjurie for the poore fellowes must neuerthelesse sweare that they come freely to their benefice are they not like to proceede on holily As for the vowe of chastity the daylie seruice and often fasting which Catholike Priests are bound vnto they by the sweet liberty of the newe Gospell doe exchange into solacing themselues with their yoke-fellowes this of the common sort of their Ministers With their preachers I will not meddle for feare of offence yet if any desire to knowe howe they behaue themselues in other countries they may read the censure of a zealous learned preacher one of their owne compagnions who amongst many other thinges writeth thus of them Menno l. de Christ fide titul de fide mulieris Cananeae When you come to preachers who bragge that they haue the word of God you shall find certaine of them manifest liars others drunkers some vsurers and foule-mouthed slanderers some persecutors and betraiers of harmelesse persons Howe some of them behaue themselues and by what meanes they gette their wiues and what kind of wiues they haue that I leaue to the Lord and them They liue an jdle slouthfull and voluptuous life by fraude and flattery they feed themselues of the spoiles of Antichrist he meaneth the benefices taken from the Papists and doe preach just as the earthly and carnall Magistrate desireth to heare and will permitte c. So much and not a litle more speaketh one great Master of the late reformation concerning his Euangelicall bretheren Are not these goodly lampes of the newe Gospell and likely persons to be chosen by Christ to giue light to others and to reforme the world But peraduenture they haue in some secret corners certaine deuout religious soules who in an austere retired life doe with continuall teares bewaile the sinnes of the rest and make incessant sute vnto the Almighty for a generall pardon of the whole Would to God they had but I feare me that they be of their inuisible congregation or rather none such to be found amongst them For those religious houses which our Ancesters had built for such Godly and vertuous people who forsaking both father mother all their kinne and acquaintance and flying from all the pleasures and preferments which this transitorie world could yeeld them gaue themselues wholy to the holy exercises of humility chastity pouerty and all sortes of mortification these Monasteries I say and all that professed in them a retired religious life the Protestantes haue beaten downe and banished and haue not in their places erected any other for the singuler Godly men or women of their religion Which doth most euidently argue that there is in them smale zeale and rare practise of any such extraordinary piety and deuotion Surely it must needes be a strange Christian congregation that holdeth them for no tollerable members of their common weale whome Christ specially chooseth to serue him day and night and by whose holy example and most feruent prayers all other Christians doe find themselues much edified and mightily protected So that briefly whether you consider the persons that serue God or the place where he is serued or the manner of his diuine seruice the Catholike religion doth in euery point surpasse the Protestant by many degrees Thus much in answere vnto Master PERKINS objection of Atheisme against vs the which I esteemed fittest for this Preface being a matter of so great moment and therefore most worthy to be examined and considered of a part with mature judgement Nowe to the rest of his questions according to his owne order OF THE REALL PRESENCE OVR CONSENTS M. PERKINS Page 185. We hold and beleeue a presence of Christes body and bloud in the Sacrament of the Lordes supper and that no fained but a true and reall presence HITHERTO we agree in wordes but in sence nothing at all For he frameth a strange construction of that real presence which saith he must be considered two waies First in respect of the signes Secondly in respect of the communicants the signes be bread and wine with which Christes body and bloud be present not in respect of place and coexistence but by sacramentall relation that is when the sacramentall signes of bread and wine are present to the hand they doe present to the minde of the receiuer the body and bloud of Christ So that already M. PERKINS vnfained true reall presence is shrunken into a sacramentall relation and only significatiue presence such as may well be of thinges as farre distant the one from the other as the cope of heauen is from the center of the earth a strange reall presence surely The second kinde of presence saith he is in respect of the communicants to whose belieuing hartes he is also really present If you aske whether this be not as odde a kinde of presence as the other was he answereth by going about the bush saying that such as the communion is such is the presence and by the communion you must judge of the presence Ignotum as they say per ignotius He might shortly haue said if he had meant plaine dealing that by your faith you must mount into heauen and take hold on Christ sitting at the right hand of his Father and from thence drawe his righteousnesse and conuey it to your selfe so that both sortes of his true reall presence is made vvithout any nearer meeting of the parties then heauen and earth doe meete togither But let vs giue him the hearing this reall communion is made on this manner God the Father giueth Christ in this Sacrament as really and truly as any thing can be giuen to man and that not peece-meale but whole Christ yet not the substance of the God-head but the efficacy merits and operation are conueyed thence to the man-hood but the whole man-hood both in respect of substance as of merits and benefits is giuen wholy and jointly together And when God so giueth Christ he giueth withall at the same time the spirit of Christ which createth in the hart of the receiuer the instrument of true
Fathers plaine sentences for the Sacrifice of the Masse to make his poore abused followers beleeue that vvhen they approue the Sacrifice of the Masse as they doe very often and that in most expresse tearmes as you shal heare hereafter that then they meane some other matter Much more sincerely had he dealt if he had confessed with his owne Rabbins that it was the common beleefe of the world receiued by the best Schoole-men That in the Masse a Sacrifice is offered to God for remission of sinnes as a Lib. 4. Instit ca. 18. §. 1. Caluin doth deliuer vvhich b De captiuit Babilon c. 1. Luther graunteth to be conformable vnto the saying of the ancient Fathers And one c Li. cont Carolostadianos Alberus a famous Lutheran speaketh it to the great glory of his Master Luther that he vvas the first since Christes time who openly inueighed against it this yet is more ingenious and plainer dealing to confesse the truth then with vaine colours to goe about to disguise it And that the indifferent reader may be vvell assured howe Luther an Apostata Friar could come vnto that high pitch of vnderstanding as to soare vnto that which none sithence Christes time neither Apostles nor other could reach vnto before him let him reade a speciall treatise of his owne Cocleus Vlenbergius Intituled of Masse in corners and of the consecration of Priestes which is extant in the sixt Tome of his workes set out in the German tongue and printed at Ienes as men skilfull in that language doe testifie In his workes in â—â—tin printed at Wittenburge of the older edition it is the seauenth Tome though somewhat corrected and abridged there I say the good fellowe confesseth that entring into a certaine conference and dispute with the Diuell about this Sacrifice of the Masse Luther then defending it and the Deuill very grauely arguing against it in fine the Master as it was likely ouercame his Disciple Luther and so setled him in that opinion against the Sacrifice of the Masse that he doubted not afterward to maintayne it as a principle point of the newe Gospell and is therein seconded by the vvhole band of Protestants This is no fable but a true history set downe in print by himselfe through Gods prouidence that all the vvorld may see from vvhat authority this their doctrine against the blessed Sacrifice of the Masse proceedeth And if they vvill beleeue it notwithstanding they knowe the Deuill to be the founder of it are they not then most vvorthy to be rejected of God and adjudged to him vvhose Disciples they make themselues vvittingly and of their owne free accord Nowe to the difference OVR DIFFERENCE M. PERKINS Page 207. THey make the Eucharist to bee a reall and externall Sacrifice offered vnto God holding that the Minister of it is a Priest properly in that he offereth Christes body and bloud to God really and properly vnder the formes of bread and wine we acknowledge no such Sacrifice for remission of sinne but only Christes on the Crosse once offered Here is the maine difference which is of such moment that their Church maintayning this can bee no Church at all for this pointe raseth the foundation to the very bottome vvhich he vvill proue by the reasons follovving if his ayme faile him not Obserue that in the lawe of Moyses there vvere three kinde of proper Sacrifices one called Holocaust or vvhole burnt offeringes the second an Host for sinne of vvhich there were also diuers sortes the third an Host of pacification Holocaustes vvere vvholy consumed by fire in recognizance and protestation of Gods Soueraigne dominion ouer vs Hostes for sinne vvere offered as the name improteth to appease Gods vvrath and to purge men from sinne Hostes of pacification or peace vvere to giue God thankes for benefits receiued and to sue for continuance and increase of them Nowe vve following the ancient Fathers doctrine doe hold the Sacrifice of the Masse to succeede all these sacrifices and to contayne the vertue and efficacy of all three to vvit it is offered both to acknowledge God to be the supreame Lord of heauen and earth and that all our good commeth from him as vvitnesseth this oblation of his deare Sonnes body who being the Lord of heauen and earth vvillingly suffered death to shewe his obedience to his Father Secondly it is offered to appease Gods vvrath justly kindled against vs sinners representing to him therein the merit of Christes passion to obtaine our pardon Thirdly it is offered to God to giue him thankes for all his graces bestowed vpon vs and by the vertue thereof to craue continuance and encrease of them These points of our doctrine being openly laide before the eyes of the world M. PER. seemeth to reproue only one peece of them to wit That the Sacrifice of the Masse is no true Sacrifice for remission of sinnes and not joyning issue with vs but vpon that branch only he may be thought to agree vvith vs in the other two to wit that it is a proper and perfect kinde of whole burnt offering and a Sacrifice of pacification at least he goeth not about to disproue the rest and therefore he had need to spit on his fingers as they say and to take better hold or else if that were graunted him which he endeauoureth to proue he is very farre from obtayning the Sacrifice of the Masse to be no true and proper kind of Sacrifice For it may well be an Holocaust or Host of pacification though it be not a Sacrifice for sinne But that all men may see howe confident we are in euery part and parcell of the Catholike doctrine we will joyne issue with him where he thinketh to haue the most aduantage against vs and will proue it to be also an Host for remission of sinnes and that aswel for the dead as for the liuing which is much more then M. PER. requireth and by the way I will demonstrate that this doctrine is so farre off from rasing the foundation of Christian religion that there can be no religion at all vvithout a true and proper kinde of Sacrifice and sacrificing Priestes But first I will confute M. PER. reasons to the contrary because he placeth them foremost Hebr. 9. v. 15.16 ca. 10. vers 10. The first reason The holy Ghost saith Christ offered himselfe but once therefore not often and thus there can be no reall offering of his body and bloud in the Sacrament of his supper the text is plaine True but your arguing out of it is somewhat vaine For after your owne opinion it is the Priest that doth offer the Sacrifice of Christes body in the Lordes supper and therefore though Christ offered it but once as the Apostle saith yet Priests appointed by him may offer it many times Doe yee perceiue howe easily your Achilles may be foiled the good-man not looking belike for this answere saith nothing to it but frameth another in
of Gods seruants OF INTERCESSION OF SAINTS OVR CONSENT M. PERKINS Page 258. OVr consent I will set downe in two conclusions The first conclusion The Saints departed pray to God by giuing thankes to him for their owne redemption and for the redemption of the whole Church of God vpon earth The second conclusion The Saints departed pray generally for the state of the whole Church THE DISSENT THey hold that the Saints in heauen doe make intercession for particular men and that hauing receiued particular mens prayers they present them vnto God but this doctrine doe we flatly renounce vpon these groundes and reasons Esay 63. vers 16. The Church saith to God doubtlesse thou art our Father though Abraham be ignorant of vs and Israel knowe vs not Nowe if Abraham knewe not his posterity neither Mary nor Peter nor any Saint departed knowe vs and our estate and consequently they cannot make particular intercession for vs. To this vve answere two wayes first vvith S. Hierome vpon the same place that to knowe one is taken there for to like and approue him and his doings Psal 1. as it is very often in holy Scripture Our Lord knoweth the way of the just Item Christ vvill answere to them that were workers of iniquity Math. 7. vers 25. I knowe yee not as also to the foolish Virgins I knowe yee not that is I like you not euen so Abraham and Iacob could not then knowe that is approue the doing of those their wicked and degenerate children Secondly vve answere that Abraham and the holy Patriarkes vvere vntill Christ had by his passion paide their ransome not yet in the possession of heauenly joyes but detayned in a place of rest by the learned commonly called Lymbus Patrum To this second answere M. PER. replyeth If they say that Abraham was in Lymbo which they will haue to be a part of hell what joy could Lazarus haue in Abrahams bosome and with what comfort could Iacob say on his death bedde O Lord I haue wayted for thy saluation We rejoyne that albeit Lymbo be thought to be vnder the earth yet is it as farre remote from hell as the depth of the earth will giue it leaue for the place of Purgatory is betweene hell and it Further that in Lymbo there was no payne but a quiet expectation of their deliuerance from thence and translation into heauen vvhich brought them great joy besides the good company of many millions of holy soules that there attended the same happy houre of their deliuerance of all vvhich Lazarus vvas partaker being carryed into Abrahams bosome I vvill here omit that M. PER. in this very question maketh this matter of Lazarus but a parable and thereby not fit to confirme any point of doctrine in his owne judgement To the second place I say that Iacob might haue great comfort to thinke vpon his saluation vvhich should be accomplished in Christs time for Abraham who was father of them Ioh. 8. vers 56. 2. Reg. 22. vers 20. rejoyced to see Christs dayes which he sawe and was glad as our Sauiour himselfe testifieth The second reason Huldah the Prophetesse telleth Iosias that he must be gathered to his fathers and put in his graue in peace that his eyes might not see all the euill which God would bring on that place Therefore the Saints departed see not the state of the Church on earth this conclusion Augustine confirmeth at large To this vve answere first that the Prophetesse when shee saith he should not see the euill of that place meaneth no more then that he should be after his death in such a place of rest and contentment that it should not grieue and vexe him to see the just punishment of his owne Country Secondly it may be said of Iosias who dyed long before Christ as it is of Abraham that he vvas to remayne in Lymbo vvhen that euill should happen and so should not see it But Augustine saith he doth confirme this conclusion at large VVhy did not the honest man quote the place of S. Augustine as he is wont to doe was it because it would leade vs directly to the discouery of his deceit S. Augustine indeede doth very copiously handle the question what knowledge soules departed haue De cura pro mort ca. 15. 16. and resolueth that soules departed of their owne naturall knowledge doe not vnderstand what is done by their friendes here but that either by the report of other soules that come to them or of Angels that goe betweene or else by the reuelation of the spirit of God in whose presence Saints departed doe continually stand they may very well knowe that which is here done and thus much of S. Augustine in this place afterward you shall heare more of him concerning his opinion of the knowledge that Saints haue of our affaires The third reason of M. PERKINS No Creature Saint or Angell can be a Mediatour for vs to God sauing Christ alone for in a true Mediatour there must be three thinges First that the word of God must reueale and propound him vnto the Church Surely I should thinke that he must first be a perfect Mediatour before he be propounded for such a one Secondly a Mediatour must be perfectly just so as no sinne be found in him at all Such be all Saints in heauen Thirdly a Mediatour must be a propitiator that is he must bring to God some thing that may appease and satisfie his wrath for our sinnes so did Moyses vvhen he appeased Gods wrath justly kindled against the sinnes of the Israelites in the wildernesse thus might a man quickly answere M. PER. argument of his Mediatour But to explicate this matter more clearely and particularly I say that a Mediatour may be taken two waies First he may be called a Mediatour that doth in any sort imploy himself betweene two parties to agree them vvhether it be by perswasion or intreaty vvhether by letter or word of mouth and so is it commonly taken and that according vnto the proper signification of the word Secondly a Mediatour may be taken in an other sence not for euery one that vseth meanes of attonement but for him only that to make the agreement betweene the parties is content to pay the debt himselfe and to satisfie for al other damages and detrimentes and in this sence doth S. Paul say 1. Tim. 2. vers 5. That we haue one Mediatour the man IESVS Christ who gaue himselfe a redemption for all Note the latter vvordes and you shall see this my distinction of Mediatour to be gathered out of the Apostles owne wordes For saith he we haue one Mediatour that gaue himselfe a redemption for all that is that tooke the debts of all our sinnes vpon his owne shoulders and satisfied fully for all see here expressed the second kinde of Mediatour Nowe in the beginning of the Chapter he desireth that intercessions and prayers be made of the Christians for all men
good deedes we doe so that the Protestants can finde no starting hole to escape out at for that they both heare our prayers and be willing to pray for vs. And hauing wonne the Protestants to beginne our Lytanies with vs Luc. 20. vers 36. and so to say S. Michael pray for vs all holy Angels pray for vs c. We may no doubt perswade them to goe forward thus the Saints in heauen are equall vnto Angels both in charity knowledge affection towardes vs and what else soeuer is requisite vnto intercession therefore if we may pray vnto Angels we may also pray vnto the Saints M. PERKINS answereth that at the generall resurrection Saints shall be equall vnto Angels as our Sauiour saith but not before Reply If Saints then shall be equall to Angels they are so at their first entrance into possession of the heauenly joyes for as all Diuines confesse the essentiall glory of their soule shal not be encreased at the resurrection and the glory of their body which they shall then receiue doth not make them more like but rather more vnlike vnto Angels that haue no bodies at all therefore this answere is insufficient which M. PERKINS foreseing addeth a second Saints be equall to Angels in glory but not in office and ministery by which they are ministring spirits for good men leauing vs to vnderstand belike for the good man doth not expresse it that because the Angels are ministring spirits therefore they better knowe our prayers and are more carefull to pray for vs. Reply First the Saints being of our owne nature and hauing passed the like perils that we be in and being also members of the same body of Christ as vve are cannot but tender the matter of our saluation as much as Angels doe especially considering that their charity towardes God bindeth them to further by all possible meanes his honour and seruice and their loue towardes their neighbours doth moue them sufficiently to second and helpe forward our saluation in what they can But the other point of their knowledge of our affaires is of greater difficulty the which vve proue first by the perfect knowledge they haue of God which is as great and also greater then some Angels haue and so in that cleare mirrour of Gods substance they may most easily see all that hath beene is or shall be said or done vpon earth And we say further that the perfection of their most happy state doth demand as due to it that they should be made priuy vnto their friendes reasonable suites vnto them All vvhich hath beene already proued But here I will adde this which is to the prâ—sent purpose That the Saints haue also charge ouer vs and therefore that it belongeth vnto their office as well as to the office of Angels to be acquainted with our affaires in particular That God hath appointed the Saints to rule ouer vs is proued out of our Sauiours wordes vvhere he saith Luc. 19. vers 17. That the good seruant for well vsing of his pound shall be placed ouer tenne Cyties And againe * Apoc. 2. vers 26. He that shall ouercome and keepe my wordes vntill the end I will giue him power ouer Nations and he shall rule them with a rodde of yron c. euen as I haue receiued of my father Item a Ibid. 3. vers 21. I will giue him to sit with me in my throne Out of which textes is plainely gathered that Christ giueth vnto holy Martirs and Saints a charge and command ouer Cyties Countries and Nations which the auncient Fathers haue well obserued and doe plainely testifie Lib. 8. in Lucam De viduis In 40. Mart. Whereupon S. Ambrose saith Euen as Angels doe gouerne ouer vs so doe they who haue attayned vnto the life of Angels In another place he calleth the Saints departed salutis nostrae Praesides the Presidents of our saluation S. Basil tearmeth them Protectors of mankinde Gregory Nazianzene desireth S. Cyprian to looke downe vpon him and to direct his speech and life b Orat. in Cyprian and to feede his flocke to gouerne them togither with him Theodorete saith that they at his time that went from home Lib. 8. de curandis prayed the Martirs to be their companions or rather the guides of their journey and returning safe did yeeld them thankes acknowledging the benefit by them Many more such like testimonies may be produced out of the auncient learned Fathers if neede require to shewe manifestly howe they vnderstood the Scriptures concerning this office and ministery or rather presidency of the Saints departed ouer vs that liue on the earth vvherefore to conclude this reason the Saints being equall vnto the Angels aswell in office and ministery as in charity and affection towardes vs we may aswel pray vnto them as vnto the Angels Our third reason shall be to preuent that euasion of theirs their God forsooth is so ready of himselfe to heare vs that we need not any spokesman to him thus I propose it One of vs liuing here may pray vnto another to pray to God for him therefore much rather may vve pray vnto the Saints departed to pray for vs because the better that the men be that pray for vs the more vvorth are their prayers according to that of S. Iames The continual praier of a just man auaileth much Iac. cap. 5 vers 17. And the examples of Abraham Moyses Iob Elias and such like excellent men doe confirme the same vvhose prayers God did heare when he refused to heare others Yea Gen. 20. vers 7. Iob 42. vers 8. God himselfe as the Scripture teacheth aduised Abimilech King of Egipt to speake vnto Abraham to pray for him and would not heare Iobs friendes praying for themselues but sent them to his seruant Iob to request him to pray for them at whose intercession he did pardon them Doth not this most plainely proue that notwithstanding Gods readinesse to receiue vs into his grace yet his will and pleasure is that vve doe pray vnto others to be a meanes vnto him for vs especially vvhen we haue so offended him that vve may justly be ashamed euen to present our selues before his diuine Majestie neede we any better warrant for praying vnto others then the aduise and commandement of God himselfe Now to the confirmation of the consequent But the Saints Math. 11. vers 11. yea the least in the Kingdome of heauen is greater then S. Iohn Baptist that is then the best on earth ergo their prayers will doe vs much more good then any mans prayer yet liuing M. PERKINS answereth that we haue a commandement to pray vnto the liuing but none to pray vnto Saints departed Reply I haue already confuted this answere vvhere I shewed before that we neede no commandement to pray or to desire others to pray for vs but it is sufficient to knowe their credit with God and willingnesse to intreate for vs when they be
power of their free will helped by the holy Ghost 2. Tim. 2. vers 15. whereas Paul ascribeth it wholy vnto God prouing if God at any time will giue them repentance c. Answere Of this point hath beene spoken in the questions of Freevvill and of Iustification and here M. PERKINS answereth and confuteth himselfe sufficiently when he maketh as a passione repentance by which God turneth our hartes to him so an actiue vvhereby a man first moued by God turneth himselfe to God so that by his owne doctrine the free-will of man helped by the holy Ghost concurreth to the first act of repentance And where he saith that the sinner was before dead and therefore could not moue any part towardes repentance we answere that the grace of God raysing him to repentance doth quicken him and enable him to doe that good worke The second abuse of mistaking of penance for the correction only of notorious offenders is a fable The third abuse saith M. PERKINS is that we make repentance not only a vertue but also a Sacrament whereas for a thousand yeares after Christ it was not reckoned among the Sacraments Yea it seemeth that Lumbard was one of the first that called it a Sacrament and the Schoole-men after him disputed of the matter and forme of this Sacrament not able any of them certainely to define what should be the outward element of it Answere I am sorry to see the man so carelesse of his credit what doe schoole-men doubt of this Sacrament it selfe or of either matter or forme of it or are they not yet agreed what should be the outward element or visible signe of it He needeth not feare to auouch any thing that wil not blush at such a palpable vntruth Sess 14. 3. for not only the Councell of Trent but long before it the Councel of Florence in the instruction of the Armenians doth teach the actes of the Penitent to wit contrition and confession to be the element or materiall part of it and the absolution of the Priest the formall The same aboue three hundred yeares past taught the Prince of schoole-men S. Thomas of Aquine Richard Durand and diuers others vpon the fourth of the sentences the fourtenth distinction and now is the common opinion of al men so that this was a lie in graine No more truth hath the former part of his wordes that Repentance for a thousand yeares after Christ was not reckoned among the Sacraments For Victor Cartennensis who liued a thousand yeares past doth in expresse tearmes proue that we must make much of the Sacrament of Penance Lib. de PoeniteÌ„tia cap. 20. and most of the auncient Doctors doe reckon and couple Penance with the Sacrament of Baptisme or with the Sacrament of the Altar To beginne with the latter that we may ascend vpward Victor Vticensis bringeth in the people speaking thus to the Priests which were going into banishment Vnto whome wil yee leaue vs poore wreatches Lib. 2. de persecut VaÌ„dalica whiles yee goe vnto your crownes who shall baptize these little ones in the fountaine of euerlasting water Who shall bestowe vpon vs the gift of Penance and by the fauour of reconciliation loose and vntie vs bounden in the bandes of sinne because to you it was said Whatsoeuer you loose vpon earth shall be loosed in heauen Is not Penance here joyned with Baptisme the very like hath S. Augustine vvhere he first sheweth vvhat recourse in times of danger is wont to be made to the Church Sâ—â—e crauing to be baptised other to be reconciled and to doe Penance Epist 180 ad Honor. euery one of them seeking comfort and the administration of the Sacraments where he not only reckoneth reconciliation and Penance with Baptisme but saith that they are Sacraments for vvhen the people seeketh after them he saith That they seeke after the administration of Sacraments And a little after If the Ministers or Priestes be present some are baptised some be reconciled none are defrauded of the communion of our Lordes body S. Hierome Let him be redeemed by the bloud of our Sauiour L. 1. cont Pelag. Lib. 1. de PoeniteÌ„tia cap. 7. eyther in the house of Baptisme or in Penance that doth imitate the grace of baptisme S. Ambrose speaking against the Nouatians saith Why doe yee baptize if sinnes may not be pardoned by a man for in baptisme there is remission of all sinnes neyther is it any matter whether Priestes by Penance or by Baptisme doe chalenge this right to be giuen vnto them for it is the same in both of the mysteries So man remitteth sinnes aswell in the mysterie or Sacrament of Penance as in Baptisme and the like vertue is in both by S. Ambrose judgement there the one is a Sacrament as vvell as the other And yet more then a 100. yeares before him Tertullian saith Lib. dâ— PoeniteÌ„tia That God fore-seeing the poyson and infection of sinne and hauing shut vp the gate of pardon and bolted the doore of baptisme hath yet suffered something else to lie open for he hath in the porch or portall placed the second penance that may be opened to them that knocke where he testifieth the second Penance that is Penance after Baptisme to be appointed of God to take away sinne after baptisme as baptisme did that vvhich was before it so that many worthy auncient Fathers doe reckon and account penance or repentance as he calleth it among the Sacraments of the Church and so doe most manifestly confute his shamelesse assertion But because I desire here at once to dispatch this matter I will proue that the Father of al Fathers that is Christ IESVS himselfe hath instituted and deliuered vnto vs this Sacrament of Penance viz. When breathing vpon his Disciples Ioh. 20. vers 23. he bid them receiue the holy Ghost and said that whose sinnes soeuer they remitted in earth should be remitted in heauen Whence we proue that as there should be sinners in the Church so men indued with power to absolue them from their sinne and because they are not to absolue any that desire not be absolued the party must in humble sort request absolution and declare from vvhat sinnes he desireth to be absolued for what wise man will absolue one from he cannot tell what and not knowing vvhether any restitution be to be made or no Wherefore the party humbly confessing his fault and the Priest absoluing of him in a religious manner thereby to magnifie God by the due dispensation of his gifts bestowed on men there must needes be a visible signe of grace of justification vvhich is at the same time conferred so that euen after the defâ—â—â—tion of the Protestants it is a true Sacrament for there is a religious ceremony instituted by Christ that hath a promise of justifying grace annexed to it And consequently so wide is that from truth that vvithin a thousand yeares after Christ repentance was not accounted