brightnesse our Lord euen foreseeing so much saith A Citye that is built vpon a hill cannot be hidd And further S. Augustin thus enlargeth himselfe Ecclesia vera nemiem latet the true Church is hidd or concealed from no man And yet more numquid digito c. Do we not point our fingar to the Church it doth she not lye open to all And lastly he exaggerateth this point further in these words Quid amplius diccturus sum c. What may I more say then account them blynd who cannot see so greate a mountaine who do shult their eyes against a candel placed in a candelstich Thus S. Austin And thus farre of the Fathers from whence we may easely coniecture how muche different ware the iudgements of the auncient and primatiue Fathers from their conceipts who labour by their speeches to turne the faire streame of the Churches Resplendency into the shallow current of her supposed Obscurity 1. In this next place I will descend to arguments drawne from analogy of reason And first from the comparison made betwene the old Testament and the New Testament Certaine it is that the Iewes euer since Ghrists dayes retained and kept a knowne profession of their Religion though vnder some restraint and their Synagogues haue euer since bene extarnally visible though disperced as in Greece Spayne Italy Germany France England c. And this point Peter Martyr and others do acknowledg and your selfe Michaeas can well iustify the same Now then if the Church of the new Testament should want a continuall Visibility then should it be inferiour in honour and dignity to the Iewish Synagogue euen then when the Gospell is prophesied to be most florishing and the Synagogue to be in it greatest decay and ruyne a reasonable to ouerbalance all reasons brought to the contrary 2. The foresaid Conclusion of the Churches Visibility is also proued from the beginning and progresse of the Church For first durnig the old Testament the Church was then so Visible as that the Professours thereof did beare euen in their flesh the Visible and markable signe of Circumcision as a badg of the Church Againe in the new Testament the whole Church of Christ was in it infancy and beginning in Christs Apostles and Disciples Who were so Visible as that the Holy Ghost did Visibly descend vpon them vpon the feast of Penticost Furthermore We reade in the Acts. c 2. 3. 4. that on one day three thousands on an other fyue thousands were adioyned to the former by their confession of fayth and Baptisme And so after they and only they were reputed as membrs of Christs Church who did adioyne themselue to the former Christians by their externall confession of fayth and by Baptisme 3. An other argument may be taken from the greate necessity imposed vpon Christians who are obliged vnder paine of eternall damnation to range themselues vnto the true Church of Christ and to perseuer in the same as appareth not only from the testimonies of Cyprian Ierome and Austin but euen from reason it selfe Since no man can raigne with Christ who is not a member of Christ But how can this be performed if the Church of Christ be Inuisible Or how can God be excused from cruelty by threatning to vs eternal perdition for our not performing such conditions the which supposing the Church not to be Visible is not in our power to accomplish 4. Furthermore the Inuisibility of the Church impugneth the marks of the Church giuen by vs Protestants which are the true preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments seeing there matters cannot be put in practice but among a Visible Society of men and such a Society as that one of it is knowne to an other 5. Againe the Inuisibillity of the Church mainly crosseth the ende for which the Church of God was instituted Which end was to prosecute God with that entier and perfect worship which man can giue to him that is worship him not only with his Soule but also externally with his body and works or deeds seeing Man consisteth of soule and body But an Inuisible Church performeth it worship to God only in hart and minde And with this I end referring the last point to you Michaeas who is next to enter as I may say vpon the stage MICHAEAS Most willingly I come For if we peruse the writings and especially of such who haue bene of the chiëfest note in the Protestant Church it is a world to see how riotous as it were and abounding they haue bene in their works for proofe of the Churches Visibility at all times and in respect of all men and this euen in the Conclusion it selfe without any borowed sequels though neuer so necessary And first we find Caluin the halfe Arche of the Protestant Church thus to say Nunc de Visibili Ecclesia c. Now we determine to dispute of the Visible Church c. extracuius gremium nulla est speranda peccatorum remissio out of whose bosome we cannot expect any remission of sinns Neither is Melancton lesse full herein who thus acknowledgeth Necesse est fateri esse Visibilem Ecclesiam c. it is necessary to confesse the Church to be Visible Whither tendeth then haec portentosa oratio this monstrous opinion which denyeth the Church to be Visible Melancthon Further thus saith Whensoeuer we thinke of the Church let vs behould the company of such men as are gathered together which is the Visible Church Neither let vs dreame that the Elect of God are to be found in any other place then in this Visible Society c. neither let vs imagine of any other Inuisible Church Briefly the said Melancthon vrging diuers texts of Scripture in proofe of the Churches Visibility thus coÌ„cludeth Hi similes loci c. These and such lyke places of Scripture non de Ideä Platonica sed de Ecclesia visibili loquuntur do not speake of Plato his Ideä but of the Visible Church this Melancthon The Learned Hunnius giueth his sentence in these words God in all times hath placed his Church in a high place and hath exalted it in the sight of all Prople and Nations Iacobus Andreas that famous Protestant thus â—umpeth with his brethreÌ„ herein We are not ignorant that the Church must be a Visible company of teachers and hearers The eminet Danâ—usâ—oth â—oth thus second the rest Who denyeth the true Church of God and that Visible to haue bene from the beginning of the world he without doubt sheweth himselfe to be ignorant in holy Schripture M. Hooker your Countriman thus writeth of this point God hath had euer shall haue some Church Visible vpon earth Peter Martyr once your Companion Ochinus confesseth the trueth herein in these words We do not appoint an Innisible Church but do define the Church to be a Congregation vnto which the faithfull may know that
refuge enforced to compart hearein with the very Anâ—baptists fleeing for the interpreting of the Scripture to the testimony of Gods Spirit and immediate instruction of the Holy Ghost Sortably hearto we find that the foresaid D. Whitakers to reâ—er others to the Margent thus wryteth Omnes linguarum imperiti c. Al those who are ignorant in the tongues though they cannot â—udge of places whether they be truly translated or not yet they apprâ—â—e and allowe the doctrine being instructed by the Holy Ghost Thus he O you sensles Galatians who haue bewitched you For may not any â—obler Wibstar or other Mecanical fellow as by experience we daily find they do flee to this refuge for their interpreting of scripture at ouching themselfs in the interpretation thereof to be peculiarly enlightned with the spirit and instruction of the Holy â—ho 〈…〉 Which being granted what Heresies so absurd which these ignorant fellowes will not attempt to mantayne And thus far to proue that the true preaching of the word and a due administration of the Sacraments which resulteth as aboue is said by sequele out of the former Note of true preaching cannot be appoynted as Notes to vs for our direction to finde out the true Church of Christ within which we are bound vnder payne of eternall damnation to implant our selses I will suâ—uect to thâ— Premisses this pertinent aâ—imaduersion following It is this When the Catholicks do demand the Protestants to set downe certaine Notes of the true Church And they answeâ—riâ—g that that Church is the true Church which enjoyeth a true preaching of the Word and a due and auayleable administration of the Sacraments Now heare I auer that this description of Notes is but our owne question reâ—urâ—ed vs back in other tearms and consequently but a Sophisme â—â—nsistiâ—g in an idle circulation of the same poynt inâ—ested with a new forme of words For when I demand which is the true Church I vertually implicitly and according to the immediate meaning of my Words demauÌ„d which Church is that which enioyeth the true preaching of the Word and the true vse of the Sacraments since only the true Church is honored with this Kynd of preaching and distribution of Sacraments The Protestants then answearing that that is the true Church whearein are foâ—d the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments do they not giue me back my owne Question varyed in other phrazes being no other thing in sense then to say That Church which enioyeth the true preaching of the word due vse of the Sacraments is that Church which enâ—â—yeth the true preaching of the Word and due vse of the Sacraments Most absurde being but Demonstratio eiusdem per Idem iustly exibilated out of all schooles Heare now I will end this first part of this Question of the Protestants Notes of the Church Admonishing the Reader of one thing to wit that whereas S. Austin and other Doctours do say that out of the Scriptures we learne which is the Church This is so to be vnderstood that we are able to proue from the scripture wheare the Church is but this not as from a Note of the Church which is the poynt only heare issuable but only because the scripture teacheth which are the Notes of the Church in teaching of what nature and quality the Church ought to be In this next place we will handle the foresaid question Hypotetically and by supposall only That is we will imagin for the tyme that the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments are the Notes of the Church to vs. To this end we will call to mynd what diuers learned Protestants do teach hearein Caluin thus saith Pastoribus Doctoribus earere nunquam potest Ecclesia c. The Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours to preach the Word and administrâ—r the Sacraments Doctour Fyeld confirmeth the same in these words The ministery of Pastours and teachers is absolutly and essentially necessary to the being of a Church Briefly Doctour Whitakers affirme That the said Notes being present do constitute a Church being absent do subuert it Now all this being granted I confidently auer that the force thereof doth most dangerously recoyle vpon our Aduersaries since it irrephably proueth that the Protestant Church hath bene contrary to the Nature of the true Church at seuerall tymes or rather for seuerall ages together wholy extinct and annihilated Sine during many ages it hath bene vterly voyde depryued of Pastours and Doctourr to preache the Word and administer the Sacraments That the Protestant Church hath during so many reuolutions of yeres absolutely wanted all Pastours and Doctours to preach the word and dispence the Sacraments is euicted in generall from the confessed Inuisibility of the ProtestaÌ„t Church for many Ages concerning which subiect I refer the Reader to the perusing of the Second part of the Conuerted â—ew out of which I will discerpe certaine Confessions of the learned Protestants First then Sebastianu Francus a Protestant heretofore alledged thus wryteth For certayne through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departuâ—e and for these thousand foure hundred yeres the Church hath bene no wheare externall and visible D. Parkins in lyke sort thus confesleth We say that before the dayes of Luther for many hundred yeres an Vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the World In regard of which confessed latency of the Protestant Church Caluin had iust reason as presuming his owne Brethrens preaching of the Word to be true thus to say Factum est vt aliquot secul spura Verbi praedicatio euenuerit c. It was brought to passe that the pure preaching of the Word of God did vanish away for the space of certaine ages The perspicuity of which poynt I meane of the inuisibility of the Protestant Church in former ages will more easely appeare if we insist for Example but in the ryme immediatly before Luthers Apostasy of what tyme it is thus confessed by D. Iewell as taking his doctryne to be the truth The Truth was vnknowne at that tyme and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Hulderick Swinglius first came vnto the knowledg and preaching of the Ghospell Thus we see that the acknowledged Inuisibility of the Protestant Church demonstratiuely prooueth the want of the former Protestant Notes to wit the preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments during all the tyme of the said granted in Visibility And that therefore the Protestants haue much endangered themselfs assigning the said Notes for the Notes of the true Church Now that the setting downe of the forsaid Notes do make for vs Catholicks is no lesse cleare then the former poynt for seing it is granted that Pastours and Doctours must be in the Church till the
amazement to see in a most noble Country where the Ghospell which forbiddeth all Rapine is presumed to be truly preached that men free not borne Bondslaues should thus in body and state only for feare of offending God and desire of sauing their soules lye prostrate to the depradations robberyes of certaine hungery Refuse and Outcasts of men who make show at least though wrongfully to warrant all these their pillages by force of the statute Law though otherwise prohibited by all Diuine and humane Law Si est dolor sicut dolor horum And if it fortune that any Priest be taken or Recusants do appeare then is the Pryest assured and the Catholicks in danger to be committed to a darke and loathsome prison there to remayne the Priest sometymes in fettars so long as it shall please the subordinate Magistrate His Maiesty who is most proue to mercy pitty and commiseration being wholy ignorant of such outrages and proceedings But My Lord. How base so euer the Priests Catholicks of England seeme to be in the eyes of their Aduersaryes yet no doubt their state is most gratefull through this their imprisonment in the sight of God and honorable in the iudgment of all foraine Catholicke nations who in regard of the others endurance may iustly apply to the said imprisoned Priests Catholicks that sentence of a most auncient Father Carcer habet tenebras sed lumen estis ipsi habet vincula sed vos soluti Deo estis triste illic expirat sed vos odor estis suauitatis LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE Theese exorbitancyes of proceedings Michaeas whereof you speake if any such be the Law chastizeth and the Offendours are punishable neither doth the supreme Magistrat geue allowance of them Yet heare Michaeas you are to remember that though wrong be not to be recompensed with wrong and Cruelty with Iniustice The tymes haue bene I meane in the reigne of Queene Marie When the Professours of our Religion did not only suffer losse of Goods but euen death itselfe And therefore there appeareth lesse reason why you Romanists should so tragically complayne at your present afflictions Since in so doing you are lyke to those Men who perpeâ—rate impietyes yet expostulate of Wrong MICHAEAS Indeede my Lord I grant that this is the vulgar recrimination often vrged and reinforced by the Protestants for the more depressing of our pressures in the eye of others yet though I will not vndertake the defence of all the procedures of those tymes myselfe being a stranger both to the Nation and to the affayres of those dayes Neuerthelesse let it not be offensiue vnto you my honerable Lord if I vnfould the reason why such actions in that Queens tyme may stand lesse subiect to the censure of an iniustifiable punishment then theese in the dayes of Queene Elizabeth and since The reason is this In Q. Marâ—es tyme the Professours of any Religion different from the Catholicke and Roman Religion were punished by certaine Canon and Imperiall Lawes made by most auncient Popes Emperours they not then hauing any forknowledg that Protestancy should rather sway in these dayes then any other erroneous fayth And this they did in regard that all such different Religions were reputed and â—oulden as Innouations and most repugnant to the auncient Catholicke fayth Now that ProtestaÌ„cy was to be accounted in Queenes Maryes reigne a mere Innouation in faith as well as any other sect appeareth euen from the free acknowledgment of the learned Protestants who teach expressly that for theese foureteene or fyfteene hundred yeeres the ProtestaÌ„t fayth was neuer so much as heard or thought of till Luthers dayes I will heare content myselfe for greater breuity with the authorityes of two or three Protestants Do we not then find M. Parkins thus to coÌ„fesse hereof For many hundred yeres our Church was not visible to the World an vniuersal Apostasy ouer spreading the whole face of the Earth And doth not Sebastianus Francus the Protestant confesse the same in theese words For certaine the externall Church togeather with the Sacramenti vanished away presently after the Apostles departure and that for theese foureteene hundred yeres the Church hath not beene externall and Visible In lyke sort D. Fulke speaking of the Protestant Church doth he not thus wryte The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes A verity confessed by Luther hymselfe thus vaunting of his owne supposed true faith Christum anobis primo vulgaâ—um audemus gloriari We dare boast that Christ was first preached by vs. Thus then we see that Protestancy was punished in Q. Maryes reigne as an Innouation in fayth and religion neuer afore that tyme dreamed of But now the case is farre otherwise touching the afflictions layed vpon the Catholicks for professing of their fayth since they are punished by certaine Parlamental statuts only decreed not past some threescore yeres since by the authority of a Woman Prince against a religion which by the learned Aduersaries lyke acknowledgment hath possessed all Christendome theese many hundred yeres and indeed so many hundred yeres as the Protestant Church is confessed by them to haue bene latent and inuisible And therefore those statâ—â—s were decreed not against the Catholicke Religion as against an Innouation but as against the till then only and sole Religion professed by all the Christiaâ—s through out the whole world To this end we find M. Napper a learned Protestant thus acknowledging Betweene the yeres of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian Papisticall reigne began reigning vniuersally without any debatible contradiction one thousand two hundred sixty yeres And as conspiring with the former Protestant herein the Centurists do euen from the tymes of Constantyne charge both hym and euery age and Century since till Luthers dayes with the Profession of our present Roman Religion Thus now your Lordship may clearly discouer the greate disparity betwene the proceedings of Queene Mary and Q. Elizabeth Since in the former Queens tyme the Lawes wheareby Sectaries were punished for their Religion were instituted many hundred yeres since In this later Q. raigne the Statuts were first made at the beginning of her comming to the Crowne which is yet in the memory of eich Man being but of reasonable greate yeres Those lawes were enacted by Popes and generall â—ouncells to whose charge and incumbency the burden of Religion is peculiarly by God committed secunded otherwise by the secular authority of Emperours and particularly of 〈◊〉 Valentinian and Marcian Theese were first inuented by a Woman and a Parlament of Lay Persons the incompetent iudges of fayth and Religion Breifly by the former Decrees a Religion confessed by the cheife Professours of it to be neuer heard of at lest for foureteene hundred yeres together and thearefore to be an innouation of fayth which is held by Catholicks to be a destruction of fayth necessary to Soules health is interdicted and prohibited By theese later
Agens as here you say how then can we know that Berengarius Waldo Wicklefe c. were Protestants And if these and others were Protestants then was not Protestancy and the Mantayners of it wholy extinguished by the former Popes sedulity and diligence How do you extricate your selfe Ochinus out of this Labyrinth Agayne I say this your sentence is but a meere Imagination wrought in the forge of your owne brayne For you haue neyther proofe nor colour of proofe that either the names of Protestants in former ages should be concealed or their bookes or any other Records touching them should by the labored confederacy of the Popes and their followers be suppressed and made away And why then should here your bare asseueration be credited Secondly I vrge that such proceedings as here are pretended to be as the extinguishing the light and splendour of Christs Church for so many ages togeather do mainly impugne the Prophecyes of holy Scripture deliuered of it for we reade that it is sayd of Christs Church Her Sunne shal not be set nor her Moone hid That she shall not be giuen to another People but shall stand for euer That she shal be an eternall glory and ioy from Generation to generation All which Prophecyes besydes diuers others recited by your selfe afore tending to the exaltation and glory of Christs Church how dissortingly and disproportionably can they be auerâ—ed of the Protestant Church of former tymes If so the Annals Records and all other Monuments of it former being be wholy obliterated and extinguished Thirdly this Euasion contradicteth the more ingenious and playne acknowledgments of others of your owne Brethren who do teach that your Church for sundry ages hath remayned wholy inuisible or rather vtterly extinct I will here produce the authority only of D. Parkins His words are these For many hundred yeares past an vniuersall Apostasy hath ouerspred the whole face of the Earth And our Church hath not bene visible to the world Lastly and principally this your surmise impugneth all experience touching the cheife Occurrents of the same ages and times For first we find that the personall defects and blemishes of certaine Popes are registred in those tymes and the relation of them are at this present extant Neyther could the Popes preuent the same And from such relations do the Protestants and particularly you M. D. in some of your writings vpbraid vs with the lesse warrantable life of some Popes Now then these things standing thus how could the Popes hinder the registring of any Professours of fayth aduerse contrary to themselfs in those dayes It is absurd therefore to thinke that the Popes were well contented that their owne scarts should remayne to be seene by all posterity supposing it were their powers to preuent the same and yet should affectedly labour that all testimonyes of different professours in fayth from them but especially of Protestant Professours should be buryed in eternall silence and obliuion Themselfs not being able to forsee that protestancy should sweigh more in these dayes then any other erroneous fayth and Religion Againe the Examples of the Wrytings of Hus Wicklefe the pretended booke of Carolus Magnus the supposed booke of Bertram the connterfeyted Epistle of Vlrick and all other writings of the foresaid Hereticks or any others at this day yet extant not suppressed fight mainly with this your Opinion For were it not that the said Wrytings and bookes were yet remayning to the world the Protestants of these tymes could not haue knowne what articles of protestancy the said Heretickes did mantayne in those dayes Furthermore the very subiect of the Decrees and Canons of Catholicke Councels celebrated in all former ages is chiefly the condemning and anathematizing of particular Heresyes there verbatim set downe and expressed as they did rise in the same ages with commemoration and recitall of the Hereticall doctrine inuented and the person inuenting with all other due circumstances Ad hereto that your owne Brethren confesse what we here endeauour to proue Among whom D. Whitakers shall serue for all at this tyme who being glad to make clayme for Protestants of all such as in any sort resisted the Pope thus writeth to his Catholicke Aduersary Vestris historijs nostrae Ecclesiae memoria viget Et qui Pontificij regni res narrare conati sunt ij nostrae Ecclesiae sunt testis The memory of our Church florisheth euen in your Historyes And those who labored to relate the proceedings of the Popes Kingdome are become Witnesses of our Church Thus D. Whitakers Lastly we will adioyne to all the former experiences the historyes and Cronicles euen of the Protestants whose subiect taske designed labour is to relate and make mention of such strange new doctrines as did rise in euery age shewing how the said doctrines were not proued ouer in silence by the Church of Rome but how and when and in what Popes reigne they were openly gainsaid crossed and condemned by the said Church And all this the Protestant Historiographers do borrow from the Catholicks auncient Records for but for those Catholicke Records they could not tell how in these dayes to write of those matters This we see is performed very diligently by the Century writers in their seuerall Centuryes by Pantaleon in his Chronographia by Osiander in his Epitome Eccles And by Illyricus in his booke stiled Catalogus testium Veritatis qui ante nostram aetatem reclamarunt Papae And which is here to be noted as making more in our behalfe herein diuers of these opinions and doctrines thus related by these Protestants to haue bene condemned in former ages are such as are at this present mantayned for true doctryne by the Protestants Now from all these premisses we may fully gather how far those former ages or the Popes then liuing were from laboring and affecting to keepe in silence or suppresse any doctrine whatsoeuer or persons mantayning the same which did appeare to be repugnant to the faith and Religion of the Roman Church at those tymes But gentlemen I feare I haue bene ouer longe OCHINVS Learned Michaeas I do confesse I haue seldome seene the weaknes of an opinion more fully and irreplicably displayed then this of myne is by you at large euen by direct of seuerall reasons And therfore for euer after I am resolued wholy to disauthorize and depose it For indeed I see It is but a meere aery and vasperous Conceate instantly dissipated before the least beame of a cleare Iudgment NEVSERVS I do with you Ochinus acknowledge the transparency of it since an impartiall eye is at the first able to see through it But Michaeas I see no reason but that we may auer that the Protestant Church and the administration of the Word Sacraments were in all ages though the particular professours of it were latent and indeed inuisible through the raging tyranny and persecution wherewith the Popes of former times did afflict all those
this Authours fraud and imposturous cariadge who tearmeth all such Articles wherein S. Bernard did agree with vs as the Sacrifice of the Masse Purgatory merit of Works free will praying to saincts and indeed all other Catholicke Articles whatsoeuer only his boldnes of wryting to Pope Eugenius excepted to whom afore he had bene Mayster and therevpon presumed to wryte more freely Slips Lapses as they were beleiued by him which in vs Catholicks he exagerateth by the name of Superstition Idolatry c. And thus we may see how one and the same Cause being exemplified in different Persons is by this Pamphleters deceate diuersly censured Leaning S. Bernard the Authour generally but with out any prouf at all wisheth his Reader to thinke that the Protestant Church was in all Countries in Christendome and did lie hid as those Iewes did in the tyme of Elias for feare of Persecution But this he only saith but proueth not and it is therefore reiected with the same facilitie with which it was spoken Now touching those Men who conceales their fayth for feare of persecution I refer the Reader to the former dialogue wherein the weaknes of this pretext of Persecution is particularly displayed That done the Pamphleter sayth that India Armenia Asia the lâ—ssar and Egypt had in former tymes Christians in them for he giueth them no other name then Christians And then he inferrs without any proofe at all or instances in the points of their Religion that they were Protestants Poore man that thus most insensibly reasoneth Seing we find the Christians of all those Countreyes to agree in all the cheife points with the present Roman Churrch Only some of them do not acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome aboue all other Bishopps In the last place of all he much insisteth in the Greeke Church within which are included the Russes and Muscouits he thus saying thereof The Greeke Church was neuer so much as in show extinguished And from whome the Russians and Muscouâ—ts had their fayth And then a little after he thus enlargeth himselfe We should do wrong to Almighty God c. to pull from him so many ample Churches meaning the Greeke Church the others aboue specifyed inferring from thence that the Protestant Church did in former ages rest visible euen in the Greeke Church Now this his shamelesse alleadging of the Greeke Church for Protestants shal be confronted with the testimony of Syr Edwin Sands a man of his owne Religion who plainly affirmeth that the Greeke Church doth concurre with Rome in opinion of Transubstantiation generally in the sacrifice and whole Body of the Masse in praying to Saints in auâ—â—cular Confession in offering Sacrifice and prayer for the dead Purgatory worshipping of pictures Yea the Protestant Deuines of Magdeburg do record that the Greeke Church doth not only beleiue all the former Articles recited by Syr Edwin Sands but also that it beleiueth and teacheth the signifying Ceremonyes of the Masse Confirmation with Crisme Extreme Vâ—ction all the seauen Sacraments Almes for the dead freewill Monachisme vowes of Chastity the fast of Lent and other prescribed fasts that Priests may not mary after Orders taken and finally that the tradition doctrine of the Fathers is to be kept Now heere I refeâ—re to any one not blinded with preiudice whether the professours of the Greeke Church are to be accounted for Catholicks or Protestants And from hence we may discâ—uer the idle and ridiculous vaunting of this Pamphleter who in the close of this point touching the Greeke Churches being protestant and a continuall Visâ—â—iliâ—y of Protestancy in the said Churches thus insulteth Looke to these places you Papists and Imagine that if there had beene none but these yet the words of the Scripture which in generality speake of a spouse had beene true And Christ had there had his Body vpon earth and the Church had not beene vtterly extinguished if neither We nor the Synagoâ—ue of Rome had beene extant Thus he His former examples being ended he entertayneth his Reader with great store of frothy and needlesse matter touching former differences betweene the Popes and Emperours the Kings of England and France And then all such persons as did bandy themselues either by wryting or otherwise with the said Emperour or Kings agaynst the Popes of those tymes the Pamphleter vrgeth for Protestants though the cheife cause of such differences betweene the Popes and the sayd Princes was touching Distribution of Ecclesiasticall Liuings within their owne Realmes That done the Treatiser extraâ—agantly discourseth in his deâ—lamatory rayling veyne that the Pope is Antichrist But how rouing and wandring all this is to the title of his Pamphlet and prouing of his owne Churches visibility the which he obliged himselfe to performe may appeare by what is already set downe After all this for a Close of all he obiecteth for forme-sake as if his taking notize of what we can truly obiect against his wryting were a sufficient answere to it certaine exceptions vrged by the Catholicks agaynst his former Instances of protestancy Which Obiections of ours being set downe he shapeth no true Answere vnto them And first he thus obiecteth in our behalfe l The Papists will beginne and say that we rake together as the Auncestours and forerunners of our fayth such as were notorious Hereticks as Wicklefe Hus or the Waldenses c. To which after much securtility of words he finally thus answereth We do not beleiue that all those are Hereticks whom you Papists will so call or account But we reply hereto and say That not only the Catholicks but the Protestants themselues do particularly charge Wicklefe Hus the Waldenses as also Almaricus Peter Bruus c. with many grosse and absurd Heresyes acknowledged for such euen by our Aduersaryes as may abundantly appeare by recurring to the seuerall passages of this former Dialogue The defence of which heresyes doth necessarily make their defendours absolute Heroticks seing they were mantayned by Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. with a froward and open contempt of the authority of Gods Church publikly teaching the contrary far differently from S. Austin S. Cyprtan and Lactantius their beleiuing certayne errours the which this Pamphleter for the more lesning of the Heresyes of Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. in p. 112. suttely repeateth seing these Fathers taught them only as their owne probable opinions euer submitting with all Obedience their Iudgments therein to the supreme Iudgments of Christ his Church Ad hereto that seing those Books written by Catholicks of those tymes do indifferently charge Wicklefe Hus Waldo and their followers with mantayning of some one point or other of protestancy and with diuers absurd Heresyes The authority therefore of those Writers are eyther equally to be beleiued in all their accusations or equally to be reiected in them all And the rather seing they could not foretell a consideration much to be obserued or presage what
end of World for the administration of the Word and Sacraments as not only D. Fulke and other learned Protestants do teach but also is euidently proued in the fore-said mentioned Second Part of the Conuerted Iew And seing an vnterrupted preaching of the Word and administratian of the Sacraments hath euer by the lyke Confession of our learned Aduersaries bene in our Catholicke Church Therefore it may inauoydably be concluded that either our Catholicke Church as euer enioying the former imposed Notes is the only true Church of Christ Or which is most absurd in it selfe and repugnant to infinit places of Holy Scripture that there hath beene for seuerall ages no true Church of Christ at all extant vpon the face of the Earth That the Catholicke Roman Church enioyeth the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments besides the euidency of the truth thereof other wise is confessed by D. Field who speaking of Luther and others acknowledgeth that they receaued from the Church of Rome their Baptisme Christianity Ordination and power of Ordination By Luke Osiander thus wryting Ecclesia que sub Papatufuic c. The Church which was vnder the Papacy when Luther was borne was the Church of Christ for it had the ministery of the Ghospell the sacred â—eriptures Baptisme the Lords supper c. and finally to omit many others by Luther himselfe thus acknowledging Nâ—s fatemaâ— c. We confesse that there is vnder the Papacy true Scrpture true Baptisime the true Sacrament of the Altar the true keres for the remission of Sinnes the true office of preaching true Catechisme Thus Luther And here with I end touching further discourse of this subiect remitting to the euen and impartiall censure the more sober Protestant whether the danger and detriment which fall vpon our Aduersaryes by erecting the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments for Markeâ— of Christs Church granting them for the tyme to be the marks thereof do not by many degrees ouerballance the aduantage which our Aduersaryes by pretending them for Notes do hope to gaine Since as by such their pretence they on the one side labour to reduce the knowing which is the true Church to their owne priuat Iudgments which euery learned and iudicious man at the first sight expoldeth for an impostute so on the other side they are forced euen by most necessary Inferences resulting out of their owne doctrine herein first to grant that the Protestant Church as for many ages by their owne acknowledgments wanting the said Notes being essentiall to the true Church hath for the sayd ages contrary to the Nature of Christs true Church beene vtterly extinct and not in being Secondly that during the sayd centuryes or ages our Catholicke Roman Church through it euer enioying of these Protestant Notes is the true Church or that otherwise there hath beene no true Church of Christ in all that great compasse of yeres Which last point to affirme is most repugnant to God sacred Writ That the Pope and Church of Rome may vpon most vrgent Occasions sometimes dispence with some degrees of Mariadge prohibited in Leuiticus And that in so dispensing the Law of Nature which euer bindeth is not violated or transgressed by them THE explanation of thâ— Question taketh it source from this one Proposition To wit All the preceps which are deliuered in Leuiticus touching the degrees prohibited in mariadge do not bind Christians by deuyne law to obserue them Which proposition or sentence being once confirmed and fortifyed it then followeth that the Church of Christ and the Head thereof may vpon iust and most vrgent occasion dispense without any sinne with some degrees prohibited in Leuâ—â—icus For the better vnfoulding and vnderstanding of this one proposition we are first to conceaue that both the Catholicks and Protestants do teach That the precepts of Leuiticus do not oblige Christians as they are properly Leniticall that is as they are Positiue and Iudicâ—all but only as they are Naturall that is as they are prohibited by the law of Nature Now the Catholicks do further teach that as some preceps in Leuiticus are Naturall so some other preceps are not naturall but meerely iudiciall and therefore may be dispensed with by Christ his Church as the Councell of Trent affirmeth Whereas our Aduersaryes mantayne that all the precepts of Leuiticus are Naturall and therefore â—ich of them indispensable by the Church Now here we are to remember that those are Naturall precepts which are knowne for such only by the light of nature without any discourse or at least which are knowne for such by a most small discourse of Reason And these precepts are the same among all Men in all nations and tymes both for the knowledge of them and for the rectitude and iustnes of them Now such precepts as for the knowing of theÌ„ do neede supernaturall light are called Diuina positiua diuine Positions And those other Precepts which receaue their establishment by humane discourse from the Prince or Magistrate are styled Humana humana Constitutions and these are not the same among all men and in all nations Now then this iustly presupposed The first proposition to wit That all the Precepts deliuered in Leuiticus touching the degrees prohibited in Mariadge do not bynd Christians by diuine Law to obserue them Is proued First from the consideration of the different punishments appointed in the twentith of Leuiticus against those who transgresse in Maâ—iadge the different degrees prohibited in the eighteenth of Leuiticus Thus for example we there fynd that Mariadge contracted in the first degree of Affinity in the right line God punisheth with death and compareth it with adultery and sodomy Which are manifestly against the Law of Nature The same punishment of death is there apointed for such as marye in the first degree of Consanguinity in a collaterall line as when the Brother maryeth the Sister But now in the second degree of consanguinity in the collaterall line as when the nephew maryeth his Fathers sister or the Mothers sister this Mariadge is punished with a lesse and more gentill punishment In like sort mariadge in the first degree of Affinity in the collaterall line as when one maryeth the wife of his brother being dead and in the second degree to wit when the nephew maryeth the wife of his vncle is not punished with death of the parties so contracted but only with priuation of children That is that the children begotten in such a mariadge should not be asâ—rybed or reputed the childreÌ„ of their said patents Now this punishment euidently showeth that these mariadges are not prohibited by the Law of Nature since the light of Naturall Reason doth not dictate to all Men that the former chastisement is a iust punishment of the foresayd kind of mariadge Secondly the former proposition or sentence is thus prooued If all the precepts of Leuiticus touching the degrees of mariadge were ordayned by the
the Church of Rome since the Apostles dayes Which Position is indeed the iuncture without which the whole frame almost of all other Controuersies hang loose Doctour Whitakers vndertaks to proue the Contrary In whom rather then in any other Protestant I haue peculiarly and ex professo made choyce to personate all the speeches and arguments vsed to proue this supposed change in the Church of Rome principally because there is no Protestant wryter that I know who hath so much prosecuted this presumed change as Doctour Whitakers hath done as appeareth in his Bookes agaynst the Cardinall himselfe agaynst Father Campion that blessed Saint and cheifly against Duraeus where the Doctour vndertaketh to instance diuers examples of this imaginary Reuolt Yet here you are to conceaue that I haue not so dwelled in the only wrytings of Doctour Whitakers as that I neglect what other Protestants haue also written in maintenance of this change for I assure you I haue omitted nothing of Moment which I could fynd in their Bookes to be obiected in proofe thereof though Doctour Whitakers is introduced to deliuer or speake it And withall I haue made speciall references to their Books where such their sentences or authorities are to be found And yet learned Men notwithstanding all that which can be vrged by any of them in this behalfe sooner shall they prooue that the fixed starrs haue changed their postures situations in their Orbe then that Rome hath changed it fayth So true are those words of an auncient Father Vetus Roma ab antiquis temporibus habere rectam fidem semper eam retinet What sentences authorities or instances of change Doctour Whitakers hath vsed in any of his Bookes by me alledged the same I haue set downe with citation of the Books and in a seuerall Character from that which he speaketh at large in the person of a Protestant and this to the end that the Reader may seuer the Doctours owne words from the words of a Protestant in generall In like sort what intemperate speeches euen loaded with malice and rancour the Doctourâ—seth â—seth against the Church of Rome are not by me forged and fathered vpon him But are especially those which are most virulent his owne words yet extant in his Bookes and accordingly they are printed in a different letter with the Latin words set in the margent So carefull I am not to wrong the Doctour by vniustly obtruding vpon him any scurrilous and vndecent Inuectiues or Pasquills The Conclusion consisteth in retorting that vpon our Aduersartes where with they here charge the Church of Rome I meane in demonstrating that it is the Protestant who hath made in fayth this change and innouation from the auncient fayth of the Apostles And thus by comparing these two contrary fayths doctrines together and the antiquity of the one and innouation of the other you shall find that errour is best knowne by truth as death is knowne bylife Now here your ingenuities are to suppose for the tyme that Cardinall Bellarmine and Doctour Whitakers are at this present liuing In like sort that the Cardinall hath read all bookes written either in Latin or English which are in this Dialogue alleadged Which like supposalls you are also to make in the other subsequent Dialogues touching the Persons in them produced as that they are now liuing and that they all liued at one tyme c. All which imaginations are fully iustifiable in the true methode of Dialogues since in this kind of writing the Persons you know are forged for the matter and not the matter for the Persons And thus much touching the first Dialogue Now to descend to the second Dialogue The subiect wherof is to demonstrate that the visibility of the Protestant Church cannot be iustifyed from the Primitiue Church much lesse from the Apostles dayes till Luthers reuolt And which is more that not any one Man during all that long Period of tyme nor Luther himselfe can be truly insisted vpon for a perfect absolute Protestant and such as the present Church of England can or will acknowledge to be a member of it Which point being once euicted How deadly it woundeth the Protestants may easily appeare in regard of the euer necessary and vndeniable visibility of Christs true Church whose expansion enlargment and vneclypsed radiancy at all tymes is much celebrated in Holy writ Her sunne shall not be set nor her Moone hid as will more fully appeare bereafter in it due place The interlocutours are the foresayd Michaeas the Iew Ochinus who first in King Edward the sixt his dayes did diseminate Protestancy at least seuer all points of Protestancy here lâ— England Doctour Reynolds of Oxford and Neuserus chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg in the Palatinate Why Ochinus Neuserus are brought in as speakers in this Dialogue the Argument prefixed therto will show I haue presumed to incorporate most of what can be vrged for the visibility of the Protestant Church in Doctour Reynolds as a Man who was best able in his dayes to support his owne Church from ruyne And sutably herto the supposed place of this disputation is Oxford I haue in no sort wronged the Doctour whom I well know to haue bene a blazing Comet in your Euang elicall spheare to whom as being of good temperance in his writings in respect of his brother Doctour Whitakers I am vnwtlling to ascrybe too litle only I wish his fauorits had not ascrybed to him too much If any of you shall muse why in these Dialogues all the Protestants being otherwise presumed to be most learned do reply so sparingly eyther to Cardinall Bellarmyne or to Michaeas their answeres and arguments as here you shall find them to do you are to conceaue that it is agreed in the begining of the two first Dialogues among all the Interlocutours to stand indisputably to the freqrent Confessions of the learned Protestants vrged in behalfe of any poynt controuerted Now both the Cardinall and Michaeâ—s for the most part do auoyd the other Interlocutours reasons and instances by the contrary acknowledgments of diuers eminent Protestants as also do produce their owne arguments in defence of their Catholicke articles from the like acknowledgments of the learned Protestants speaking in those points agaynst themselues and in behalfe of the Catholickes Which method being chiefly houlden throughout these Dialogues how then can the Protestant Interlocutours continue any new reply agaynst the Caidinall or agaynst Michaeas But to reflect vpon the subiect of this second Dialogue And here I do auouch that to maintayne that Protestancy was euer before the breaking out of Luther though euen then it was not in it perfection is no lesse absurd in reason then to maintayne that the byrth of any thing can precede it conception and the effect the cause True it is that in diuers former ages there haue bene some secret and indeed blind Moules who working vnder the foundation of the Roman Church haue labored
Lord the doctour you see is gone and indeed I much dislike his bitter eiaculation of reprochfull words against the Church of Rome little sorting to the presumed grauity of a christian Doctour but the matter is not great since obloquy is but basenes and the skumme of malice and that tongue which knowes not to honour cannot dishonour But now touching your learned dispute it hath I humbly thanke the Lord of Hoasts and your charitable endeauour wrought in me so much as that I well know towards what shoare I may anker and stay my heretofore floating and vnsetled iudgment I see it is already acknowledged euen by her enemies that the Church of Rome enioyed in her primitiue times a true perfect and incorrupt faith as the Apostle doth fully assure vs I see that your selfe my Lord partly by handling the Subiect in grosse partly by distribution of times in which this supposed change is dremed to haue happened partly by displaying the diuersity of the Protestants Opinions touching the first coÌ„ming of Antichrist who is said to haue beene the first who wrought this change and partly by other forcible arguments haue demonstratiuely and irrepliably euicted that since the Apostles there hath bene no change of faith made at all in the Church of Rome Finally I see that the examples of this imaginary change instanced by the Doctour who as I am aduertised hath more laboured in the search of this subiect then any other Protestant were so defectiue aâ—d maimed as that they receiue theire full answere and encounter both from your former discussed heads as also from your Lordship proouing a greater confessed antiquity of the said Articles then the instances do vrge and lostly euen from the Doctours liberall acknowledgment who plainly coÌ„fesseth that he knoweth not the time when this his change receiued it beginning Since then all these points are made so euident and vndeniable I grant they haue swaighed and ouer-ballanced my iudgment indifferently heretofore to either side enclining and haue enduced me indubiously to beleeue that the fayth of the Church of Rome at this day is as at the first it was to wit pure spotlesse and inchangeable But now seeing no man can be a perfect Christian except he actually enioy the Sacrament of Baptisme which is the first dore as you Christians teach that leadeth a man to the misteries of your Religion therefore most illustrious Cardinall I renouncing my former Iudaisme and wholy rendring my selfe a true disciple and seruant of Christ Iesus as acknowledging that the Redemption of Israell is in him come do here prostrate my selfe in desire to receiue this Sacrament euen from you that as your tongue is the cheife instrument vnder the highest for my beleefe of the Catholicke fayth so your hand may be the like instrument for the conferring vpon me the benefit of that sacred Mistery where by a man is first incorporated and as it were matriculated in the bosome of the Catholicke Church CARD BELLARM. Worthy Micheas I much ioy that our discourse hath wrought so happy a resolution in you as to embrace the Catholicke and Roman fayth and giue sole thankes to him therefore who is higher then the highest Heauen and yet as low as the Center of the earth who thus hath vouchsafed by his grace to descend to the bottome of your harte and let the remembeance of your precedent staine in Iudaisme be a spurre for your greater perfection in the Christian Religion So shall you resemble that body which receiueth it greater health from it former sicknes And be sure that euery day you encrease more and more in Christian vertues nulla dies sine linea And takeheed that you grow not lukewarme in this your resolution or come to a stand of your present feruour But remember that such motions of the soule of this nature which are stationary are therein become Retrograde since here not to go forward is to go backeward And as touching the precedent subiect of our discourse rest you assured that the faith of Christ first preached in Rome was neuer yet in any one dogmaticall point altered since it first plantation The Church of Rome was and doubtlesly is the true Church of Christ which Church is so farre from broaching change and innouation by her intertayning but any one Errour as that therefore it is most truly prophesied of it that it is a MouÌ„taine prepared in the top of Mountaines exalted about Hils It being indeed seated of such a hight as that neither the thundring fragors of the persecutours cruelty nor the windes of Hereticks speaches and endeauours were euer able to reach so high as by introducing nouelty in fayth to disioynt the setled frame thereof so true is the saying of that holy father whose fire of zeale brought him to the flames of Martyrdome adulterari non potest sponsa Christi incorrupta est et pudica Now touching your baptizing Micheas wee will take such present course therein as shall giue you all full satisfaction MICHEAS I humbly thanke your Lordship But I am further here to aduertise your Lordship that if so it might be thought lawfull and conuenient that he who heretofore denyed Christ might after be permitted to be a dispenser of the Mysteries and treasure of Christ I could then greatly wish that after I haue receiued the Sacrament of Baptisme at your hands I might be aduanced to the holy Order of Preisthood that so now in the last scene of my old age my endeauours of this nature hereafter to be attempted in the Catholicke Church might partly redeeme my former mispent labours in the Iewish Synagogue My single course of life and vnmarryed state best sorteth thereto and my owne desire is most vehement and forcing And indeed I am persuaded that the profitable talents of a good Christian ought in part to resemble the engendring riches of an vsurer who breeds vpon siluer and whose Tocòs or interest money is no sooner begotten then it begetteth So should it fare with a man of sufficiency deuoted to Christ his seruice who being become of late his adopted sonne should himselfe instantly labour to be a parent vnder Christ of other such like sonnes O how ineffable a comfort it is when a man may truly yet modestly say through his spirituall trauell fruitfully employed towardes others as your Lordship may now of me In Christo â—esu per Euangelium vos genui And how truly honourable is that profession of life which consisteth in the negotiation and trafiking as I may say of saluation of soules Et ero mercator in domo Domini Exercituum CARD BELLARM. I Commend much your great feruour herein But yet I hold it more secure to pause for a time to see whether this your resolution touching Priest hood being but the Primitiae of your spirit be steddy and permanent or whether hereafter it may alter and wauer And if so then would it follow that your present taking of that course would
into the wildernesse c. All which places are strangely deâ—orted by some few iniudicious men to the defence of the Churches Inuisibility And to the first against these Inuisibilists I say touching those former words of Elias first admitting the Iewish Synagogue to haue bene then inuisible yet is this exaÌ„ple defectiuely alleadged as applyed to the Church of Christ since the predictions and promises made to Christ his Church whose Testament is established in better promises are farre greater and more worthy then those of the Iewish Synagogue Agayne the foresaid example doth not extend to the whole Church of God before Christ but only to the Iewish Synagogue being only but a part or member thereof For besides the Iewes there were diuers others faythfull as Melchisadech Cornelius the Eunuch to the Queene of Caudace c. Secondly I say this example maketh wholy agaynst the alleadgers of it since the words of Elias were spoken not generally of all the Iewish People but only in regard of the Countrey of Israel and accordingly God answered the complaint of Elias with restraint to that only Countrey the texts saying I haue left to me in Israel seauen thousands which haue not bowed vnto Baâ—l Adde hereto that in those very tymes the Church did greatly florish in the adioyning Countrey of Iuda and was to Elias then knowne and Visible vnder the raigne of Asa and Iosaphat And thus is this obiection answered euen by Melancthon and Enoch Clapham Lastly admitting these seauen thousands were vnknowne to Elias yet followeth it not that they were vnknowne to all others of the same tyme Much lesse then is this Example of force to prooue that the Church of God may be Latent and Inuisible for many hundred yeares together as some of our ignorant brethren do teach not to one Elias only but to the whole World And thus farre of this so much vrged example of Elias To the second Those words of the Prophet The Oast sacrifice shall cease c. Are to be referred to the ouerthrow of Ierusalem and the ceasing of the Iewish sacrifices euen by the exposition of Chrysostome Ierome Austin others Neyther can the words be properly extended to the tymes of Antichrist since we teach that Antichrist is already comne and yet we see that sacrifices do still remayne To the third By the word departure mentioned by the Apostle is vnderstood eyther Antichrist himselfe by the figure Metonymia because he shal be the cause why many shall depart from Christ as Chrysostome and Theodoret vpon this place do expound as also Austin Or rather is vnderstood a departure and defection from the Roman Empyre as Ambrose Sedulius Primasius and diuers Protestants do expound this Text. To the fourth I answere that by the Woman flying into Wildernes S. Iohn meaneth not any locall or corporall flight out of the knowledge and notice of the world but only a spirituall retiring in hart from the allurements and pleasures of the World to pennance mortification and contemplation of celestiall matters And in this very sense Bullenger interpreteth the Churches flight from Babilon To the former texts I may adde though not aboue mentioned that passage in S Iohn Venit hora nunc est c. The hower cometh and now is when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and truth To this I answere that our Lord here teacheth that the chiefe worship of God which shal be exhibited in his Church consisteth in an internall worship of him but from hence therefore it followeth not that the Church is Inuisible or that all externall worship is prohibited for our Lord here speaketh not of the place where God shal be worshiped but of the manner and rite of worshiping Chrysostome Cyrill and Euthimius vpon this place do oppose those words in spirit to the ceremonies of the Iewes as they are corporall and those other words in truth to the sayd Ceremonies as they are figures of things to come Now because diuers of the former passages of Scripture are obiected to proue that the Church of Christ shal be Inuisible at the least in the time of Antichrist I do reply further hereto saying first That the former place of the Apostle to the Ephesians alledged by Ochinus touching an incessant vndiscontinued being of Pastours Doctours in the Church to remaine euen to the end of the world omitting other texts aboue cited by him as also the Protestants confessions of the Churches euer Visibility hereafter to be deliuered by Michaeas do fully answere and satisfy the supposed doubts suggested in the former texts touching the Churches Inuisibility in the time of Antichrist Secondly I reply that diuers learned brethren of ours punctually and purposely with reference to that time do teach that the Church shall remayne then Visible And to giue some tast hereof D. Pulke thus writeth In the time of Antichrist the Church was not driuen into any corner of the world but was is shal be dispersed in many Nations And againe he thus writeth The true Church though obscured and driuen into wildernes by Antichrist yet shall continue dispersed ouer the world Bullenger sayth the Church in the time of Antichrist shal be right famous But if it shal be then right famous it must of necessity be then Visible To be short Szegedine a learned Protestant thus writeth The ministers of Gods word shall preach all the time in which Antichrist shall tread vnderfoote the holy Citty Thus farre in solution of all such chiefe passages of Scripture vsually obiected against the perpetuall Visibility of the Church But now M. Doctour I thinke it is your turne to warraÌ„t the former truth from the wrytings of the auncient fathers and from arguments of Credibility which the force of reason it selfe doth minister DOCTOVR REYNOLDS I am prepared thereto And I will not presse your memoryes with a needles ouercharge of their sentences Some few and those pertinent shall serue though otherwise they are most luxuriant and plentifull herein And first thus Origin writeth Ecclesia est plaena fulgore ab oriente vsque ad Occidentem the Church is full of fulgour or brightnes from the East euen to the West Cyprian discourseth thus Ecclesia Dom. c. The Church of our Lord being replenished with light casteth forth it beames throughout the whole earth Chrysostome saith facilius est solem extingui quam Ecclesiam obscurari It is more easy for the Sunne to be extinguished then the Church to be obscured or darkened Finally for greater conpendiousnesse S. Austin is so full in this point as that he maketh the Visibility of the Church a Marke for the ignorant to discerne the true Church of Christ from all false Conuenticles thus writing Propter hoc enim motus c. By reason of the teÌ„ptations of those who are weake and may be seduced by some from acknowledging the Churches
a Protestant Church preaching the Word and administring the Sacraments vpon the face of the earth to be seene or heard of But hereat I meruayle not since Philosophy reacheth vs to speake by all â—sion that where the Obiect is wanting there the sense suspendeth it operation DOCTOVR REYNOLDS Admitting all that you say to be true touching the first twenty yeares before Luther yet it is most euâ—cent that Iohn Hus who liued anno 1400. and not very many yeares before those 20. yeares was a good and true Protestant for him I fynd registred for a most holy Martyr by M. Fox and D. Downeham MICHAEAS Iohn Hus did liue in the yeare 1400. Who first was a Catholicke Priest The cause of his death was in that he taught the Necessity of Communion vnder both kinds and the seditious doctrine touching Princes Bishops and Priests being in mortall sinne But to make a more particular dissection of this Instance The Articles wherein his followers the Bohemians dissented from the Church of Rome were these following which M. Fox thus relateth The Bohemians being demanded in what poynts they did differ from the Church of Rome the only Propositions which they propounded were these foure Articles first Communion vnder both kinds The second that al Ciuil dominiou was forbidden to the Clergy The third that the preaching of the Word was free for all Men and in al places The fourth that open crymes are in no wyse to be suffered for auoyding of greater euill Thus M. Fox of the Hussite who we see as comparting with the Church of Rome in all other points cannot possibly be alledged for visible members of the Protestant Church D. REYNOLDS But what do you say of Iohn Hus himselfe was not he a Protestant and dyed in defence of the Protestant fayth MICHAEAS M. D The testimonies of Luther and M. Fox shall decide this point betweene vs. And first M. Fox thus saith of him Quid vnquam docuit aut in concilio defendit Hussius c. What did Hus defend at any tyme or taught in the councel wherein he might not seeme euen superstitiously to agree with the Papists What doth the Popish fayth teach concerning Transubstantiation which he did not in like sort confirme with the Papists Who did celebrate Masses more religiously then he Or who more chastly did keep the vowes of Priestly single life Add hereto that touching freeâ—â—l fayth predeâ—â—nation the cause of iustification merit of Works what other thing taught he then was taught at Rome What Image of any saint did he cast out at Bethleem therefore what can we say for which he deserued death touching the which he is not a like to be condemned with the Sea of Rome or with it to be freed and absolued Thus far M. Fox with whom agreeth Luther thus writing of Hus The papists burned Hus when as he departed not a fingars breadth from the papacy for he taught the same which the papists do only he did find fault with their vices and wicked life agaynst the Pope he did nothing Thus Luther Besides all the Catholicke doctrines mantained by Hus he taught as aboue is touched the Heresy of Wiclef to wit that there are no Princes Priests or Bishopps whyle they are in mortall sinne as M. Fox recordeth with whom agreeth the Protestant Osiander thus wryting Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est Praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in mortali peccato Haec propositio approhart non potest sed passus est Ioannes Hus hac in parte aliquid humani There is no Ciuill Prince no Prelate or Bishop whiles he is in mortall sinne This proposition cannot be approued but Iohn Hus suffered herein the infirmity of Man Now I cannot but admire the incredible boldnes of M. Fox who acknowledging the former Heresy mantayned by Hus but especially granting as shewed out of his owne words that Hus did hould all the cheise points and frame of the present Roman Religion was neuerthelesse not ashamed to pronounce Iohn Hus for a most holy Martyr as aboue is expressed meaning a martyr of his owne Protestant Church So gladly you Protestants for the supporting of the continuance and visibility of your Church do make clayme to any Catholicke or hereticke whosoeuer who in one only point of Religion though dissenting in all others may seeme to compart and interleague with you Thus far of Hus whom to legitimate for a Protestant you see it is impossible OCHINVS I must here agree in iudgment with Michaeas And this Instance had far better bene forborne then obtruded And indeed it is no small blemish to our Church to insist in such weake and insufficient examples But M. Doctour Let vs entreate you to rise vp to Higher tymes in your discourse D. REYNOLDS I will satisfy your desire The next then in whom I will instance shal be our owne Contryman Wicklef Whom all the world I hope will euen dispose that he was a perfect Protestant and that himselfe and his followers enioyed the administration of the Word and Sacraments the practize of which is acknowledged to be an essentiall note of the Churches Visibility This my opinion touching Wicklef being a Protestant is not myne alone but it is warranted with the authorityes of M. Fox and the learned Crispinus MICHAEAS Indeede M D. M. Fox Crispinus I grant do so teach but how truly Obserue what followeth and then geue vp your eauen and impartiall iudgment And yet before I come to the tuche of this point I must put you in mind what thy two former Protestants grant in the places by you cited that at Wickleffs reuolt supposing him to be a Protestant the Protestant Church was wholy inuisible for thus M. Fox writeth In the tyme of horrible darknes when there seemed in a manner to be no one so little sparke of pure doctrine left or remayning Wicklef by Gods prouidence rosevp through whom the Lord would first awaken raize vp againe the World Thus he This Wicklef being an Englishman as you know M. D. was a Catholicke Priest and Person of Lutterworth in Leicestershirs and as Stow relateth He first inueighed against the Church of Rome because he had bene depriued by the Archbishop of Canterbury from a certaine benefice He liued anno 1370. Now that Wicklef cannot be truly claymed for a Protestant I proue in that besides he was a Catholicke Priest and no Church of the Protestants then knowne to him he still retayned many Catholicke Opinions and withall taught diuers notorious Heresyes Touching his Catholicke Opinions still beleiued by him I will alledge diuers out of his owne Wrytings First he beleiued seauen Sacraments thus writing of them Quaedam sacramentaper se promulgauit Christus c. Certaine sacraments Christ did promulgate by himself as Baptisme the Eucharist the sacrament of Orders and of Penance certaine also by his Apostles as the sacraments of Confirmation and of Extreme
serue only to bleare for the tyme the impenetrating and weake eyes of the ignorant do in the closure of all both by certaine necessary inferences as also in playne and expresse tearmes grant the point here controuerted to wit that the Protestant Church hath for many ages togeather bene wholy inuisible and not knowne to any one man liuing or rather that during such said ages it hath bene vtterly ouerthrowne destroyed and as it were annihilated and no such Church in being The proofe of which point shal be the subiect of this passage This point then is prooued two wayes and both from the penns of the Protestants First from their acknowledged want of succession of Pastours and of their like defect of sending by ordinary Calling Secondly from their manifest open complaints of their Churches inuisibility for former ages in expresse words or rather of it vtter extinction Nullity And as touching the first It is euident euen in reason it selfe that that Church which wanteth succession of Pastours ordinary Calling if any such Church could be must needes be inuisible at least at that tyme when such want is And the reason hereof is because this want necessarily presupposeth that there were not in that supposed Church any former Predecessours or Pastours at all which could conferre authority or calling to the succeding Pastours or Preachers But where no Pastours are there are no sheepe for it is written how shall they heare without a Preacher And where no sheepe are there is no Church And where is no Church there is no visisibility of it since euen Logicke instructeth vs that Non Eutis â—â—n est Accidens That the Protestant Church for many ages hath wanted all personall succession and ordinary Calling is ouereuident seeing besides that which hath bene sayd of this point already we find diuers learned Protestants to confesse no lesse For thus doth Sadellius write Diuers Protestants affirme that the Ministers with them are destitute of lawfull Calling as not hauing a continuall visible succession from the Apostles tymes which they do attribute only to the Papists And hence it is that many Protestants confesse that they are forced to flye to Extraordinary Calling which is immediatly from God without any help of man Thus for example Caluin saith Quia Papae tyrannide c. Because through the tyrannâ— of the Pope true succession of Ordination was broken off therefore we stand neede of a new course herein and this function or Calling was altogether extraorinary Thus Caluin And D. Fulke in like manner sayth The Protestants that first preached in these dayes had extraordinary Calling with whom agreeth D. Parkins saying The calling of Wâ—cklefe Hus Luther Oecolampadius Peter Martyr c. was extraordinary Thus we see that the Protestants confessing the want of personall succession in their Church as also the want of Ordinary Vocation and flying therefore to Extraordinory Vocation do euen by such their Confessions acknowledge withall the Inuisibility of their Church in those tymes and an interruption next before of all personall succession for if succession of Pastours had then bene really truly in being then had those men bene visible to whom the Authority of calling others to the Ministery had appertayned and consequently there had bene no need of Extraordinary Calling Which Extraordinary Calling is euer accompayned with Miracles as aboue is showed in the iudgments of the more sober Protestants or otherwise it is but a meere illusion And we haue not red or heard that any of those first Protestants who vendicated to themselues this Extraordinary Calling haue euer wrought in confirmation eyther of their Calling or doctrine any one Miracle OCHINVS I must confesse Michaeas that you haue discussed well of this poynt and in my iudgment very forcingly But proceed we intreate you to the second branch of your Proofe since I can hardly belieue that any Protestants will expresly acknowledge the Inuisibility of their owne Church for if they do then is the Question at an end and hath receaued it vttermost tryall that can be imagined MICHAEAS The euent will seale the truth of this point And first that immediatly before Luthers reuolt the Protestant Church was inuisible Vibanus Regius a markable Protestant confesseth so much But of the Protestant Church it visibility at Luthers appearance we haue already fully discoursed and therefore we will ascend to higher times M. Parkins then thus writeth of ages more remote We say that before the day of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the world Caelius Secundus Curio an eminent Protestant confesseth no lesse in these words Factum est vt per multos i am annos Ecclesia latuerit ciuesque hutus regni vix ab alijs ac ne vix quidem agnosci potuerint c. It is brought to passe that the Church for many yeares hath bene latent and that the Cittizens of this Kingdome could scarsely and indeed not as all be knowne of others D. Fulke confesseth more particularly of this point saying The Church in the tyme of Bonifacâ— the third which was anno 607. was inuisible and fleed into wildernes there to remayne a long season M. Napper riseth to higher tymes thus wrytinge God hath withdrawne his visible Church from open assemblyes to the harts of particular godly men c. during the space of twelue hundred and sixty yeares the true Church abiding latent and inuisible With whome touching the continuance of this Inuisibility agreeth M. Brocard an English Protestant But M. Napper is not content with the latency of the Protestant Church for the former tymes only but inuolueth more ages therein thus auerâ—ing During euen the second and third Ages meaning after Christ the true Church of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist hymselfe But Sebastianus francus a most remarkable Protestant ouerstripeth hearein all his former Brethren not doubting to comprehend within the said Inuisibility all the ages since the Apostles thus wryting for certaine the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure And that for these thousand and foure hundred yeares marke the lenght of the tyme the Church hath beene no wâ—eare externall and visible Which acknowledgement of so longe a tyme or rather longer is likewise made by D. Fulke in these words The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tyme. But D. Downham with whom I will heare conclude is not ashamed to insimulate the very tymes of the Apostles within the lyke latency thus wrytinge The generall defection of the visible Church foretouâ—d 2. Thessal 2. begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes Good God Would any Man hould it possible were it not that their owne books are yet extant that such eminent Protestants should confesse
Work A matter so euident and confessed by our aduersaryes as that D. Fulke thus exprobrateth the Catholicks in these words You can name the notable personages in all ages obserue these words in all ages and their gouerment and ministery and especially the succession of the Popes you can rehearse in order and vpon your fingars Thus D. Fulke 3. Thirdly We prooue the former assertion of our Catholicke Church its Visibility during the first six hundred years after Christ and consequently during the whole period of the Primatiue Church by taking a view in generall how the cheife auncient Fathers of those tymes are pryzed and entertayned by the Protestants who indeed dispensing with all Ceremonyes herein do absoluâ—ly reiect them as inexcusable and grosse Papists For as for these last thousand yeares It is acknowledged by all Protestant whosoeuer that our Church hath bene most visible tyrannyzing they say ouer the true Church for so many ages And according hereto M Powell sayth From the yeare of Christ six hundred and fyue the professed company of Popery hath been very visible and conspicuous But to proceede If the most auncient most reuerend Fathers of the Primatiue Church I meane Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Iustinus Ireneus Tertulâ—an Origen Cyprian Athanasius Hilarius the Cyrills the Gregoryes Ambrose Basill Optatus Gaudentius Chrysostome Ierome Austin and diuers others be accounted by our aduersaryes most earnest Professours of our Catholicke and Roman fayth then followeth it ineuitably that our Catholicke Church was most conspicuous in those dayes since those Fathers were then the visible Pastours of the Church and then consequently the Church whereof they were Pastours must needs be visible That these primatiue Fathers were Papists as our Aduersaryes tearme vs appeareth euidently out of these few confessions here following which for breuity I haue discerped out of the great store of like acknowledgments of this point occurring in our aduersaryes bookes And first Peter Martyr thus confesseth of this point As long as we insist in the Fathers so long we shal be conuersant in their errours Beza thus insulteth ouer the Fathers Euen in the best tymes meaning the tymes of the Primatiue Church the ambition ignorance and lewdnes of the Bishopps was such as the very blind may easily perceaue that Satan was president in their Assemblyes or Conncells D. Whitguift thus conspireth with his former Brethren How greatly were almost all the Bishops and learned wryters of the Greeke Church Latin also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merit of Innocation of Saints and such like meaning such like Catholicke doctrines Melancthon is no lesse sparing in taxing the Fathers who thus confesseth Presently from the beginning of the Church that is presently after Christ his Ascension the auncient Fathers obscured the doctrine concerning the Iustice of Fayth increased ceremonyes and deuised peculiar Worshipps But Luther himselfe shall end this Scene who most securiously traduceth the Fathers in these words The Fathers for so many ages meaning after the Apostles haue bene blind and most ignorant in the Scriptures They haue erred all their lifetyme and vnlesse they were amended before their deaths they were neither Saincts nor pertayning to the Church Thus Luther And thus much touching the Fathers of the Primatiue Church being professours of our present Catholicke Fayth and Church and consequently that our Catholicke Church was most uisible and florishing in those primatiue tymes 4. Fourthly The former inexpug 〈…〉 verity is proued from that the Church of Rome neuer suffered change in fayth since it first plantation by the Apostles Now if the Church of Rome neuer suffered chauge in Religion if it hath euer continued a Church since the Apostles dayes and lastly if at this day it professeth our present Catholicke fayth then followeth it demonstratiuely that there were visible Professours of our Catholicke fayth in the Church of Rome euer since the Apostles and consequently that our Catholicke Church hath euer bene uisible since those tymes To proue that the Church of Rome neuer brooked change of fayth since the Apostles dayes I referre you to the first former Dialogue of the Conuerted Iew. 5. Fiftly and lastly our foresaid Assertion is acknowledged for true vndoubred euen from the penns of our learned Aduersary who most frequently in their wrytings do intimate so much And here I am to craue pardon if I iterate some few testimonies and acknowledgments of Protestants aboue produced in this Dialogue Which as they there did prooue an inuisibility of the Protestant Church in those former Ages so here also diuers of them prooue so neerely do these two points interueyue the one the other a continuall visibility of our Catholicke Church during the said tymes To come then to these confessions of the Protestants in this point touching the euer visibility of the Catholicke Church I will ascend vp by degrees euen to and within the Apostles dayes And this because some Protestants as lesse ingenuous and vpright in their writings do affoard to our Catholicke Church a shorter tyme or Period of visibility then others of their more learned and well-meaning Brethren are content to allow First then M Parkins thus sayth During the space of nyne hundred yeares the Popish Heresy hath spreed it selfe ouer the whole earth This point is further made cleere from the Penns of the Centurists and Osiander all which do in euery of the Centuryes from S. Gregories tyme to Luther name and record all the Popes 〈◊〉 cheyfe Catholicke Bishops and diuers others professing our Catholicke fayth according to the Century or age wherin eich of them liued But to ascende higher M. Nappier confesseth of a longer tyme thus saying The Popes Kingdome hath had power ouer all Christians from the tymes of Pope Sâ—luester and the Emperour Constantyn for these thousand two hundred and sixtie yeares And also againe from the tyme of Constantyn vntill theese our dayes euen one thousand two hundred and sixty yeres the Pope and the Cleargy hath possessed the outward visible Church of Christians But M. Napper in an other place dealeth more bountifully with vs herein for thus he witnesseth During euen the second and third ages the true temple of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist Sebastianus Francus alloweth the Visibility of our Church from the tyme immediatly after the Apostles thus wrytinge Presently after the Apostles tymes all things were turned vpsyde downe c. And for certaine through the worke of Antichrist the external Church together with their fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure With this Protestant D Fulke conspireth thus saying The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes Which being spoken by him of the Protestant Church then may we infer that the Church of Rome and it fayth as presumed to be by the iudgment of this Doctour the false Church was visible immediatly
thereof Lastly this Inference drawne from the state of the old Testament and applyed to the New is most inconsequent Both because the New Testament is better established then the old seing to it is promised that the gates of Hell shall not preuayle against Christs Church And also it is styled The pillar and foundation of truth And finally in that the Peoples of the Iewes were not the Vniuersal Church of God as the People of the Christians are And therefore out of the Iewish Synagogue there were diuers others of the faythfull and Iust as Melchisedech Iob Cornelius the Centurion the Eueuch of Queen of Candice c. This ended this Triffler in pag. 6. seuerall other places meÌ„tioneth the vsuall Obiection taken from the words of Elias saying relictu sum solus But this is fully satisfyed in the first part or begining of the former Dialogue In the next place to wit pag. 10. he commeth to depres the glory of the Church of Christ during his aboade here vpon earth and tyme of his Passion but all this most impertinently seing the radiant splendour and Visibility of Christ his Church was cheiffly to beginne and then for euer after to continue till the worlds end after the descending of the Holy Ghost and not before This done the Authour commeth to the tymes of the Tenn Persecutions by the Heathen Emperours prouing from thence the obscurity of Christs Church in pag. 25. To which I answere that these Persecutions according to the nature of persecution were so far from making the Church of Christ in those dayes inuisible as that it became thereby most visible seeing none are persecuted but visible Men And the very names of the cheiffe Martyrs of those dayes are yet most fresh and honorable in the memoryes of all good Christians euen to this very hower they remayning yet registred in the Ecclesiasticall Historyes both of Catholicks and Protestants In pag. 26. he instanceth in the tymes of the Arians and produceth Saint Ieromes testimony and words to wit The whole World did sâ—ght and wounder that it was Arian from which authority he would proue the Inuisibility of Christs Church in those dayes But here the Authour discouereth his ignorance For here First Ierome calleth that by the figâ—â—e Synecdoche the whole World which is but a part of the World S Ierome meaning only of certaine parts of Christen 〈◊〉 Secondly S. Ierome here taketh the word Arian in a secundarye signification For here he calleth them improperly and Abusiue Arians who through Ignorance did subscrybe to the Arian Heresy For he speaketh of that great number of Bishops which came out of all parts of Christendum to Arimine and were deceaued by the Arians through their mistaking of the greeke Word Omosios and there vpon Materially only they subscrybed to the Heresy of the Arians But the same Bishopps being after admonished of their errour did instantly correct the same and bewayled their mistaking with teares and penance Thus we se the true relation of this poynt really proueth an actuall Visibility of the Orthodoxall Christians at that very tyme. Pag. 27. He insisteth in Athanasius and Liberius as the only defendours in those dayes of Christs Diuinitie and consequently that the Church of Christ did only rest in them two For thus he wryteth The Church for any externall show was brought low for if any body held it vp it was Athanasius who then played least in sight and durst not appeare Heere is strang and wilfull mistaking for though it be granted that Athanasius in regard of his feruour and learning was more persecuted by the Arians then any other Bishop yet to â—auer that himselfe alone or Liberius did only impugne the Heresy of Arius and that there were no other Orthodoxall Beleiuers at that tyme is most improbable or rather most absurd This is proued first from the Councell which was assembled cheifly for the suppressing of the Arian Heresy at which Councell Athanasius hymselfe was present This Councell consisted of three hundred Bishopps and more the greatest part whereof by their voyces did absolutly condemne the Arian Heresy Now how can it be conceaued that all the said Bishopps speaking nothing of the Orthodoxall Laity of that tyme excepting only Athanasius should instantly either a fore or after apostatate or through feare of Persecution externally profes the Arian Heresy Againe the truth of this poynt is further confirmed from the Epistle which Athanasius and the Bishops of Thebes and Lybia gathered together in the Councell of Alexandria did wryte to Pope Paelix the Second of that name wherein they vnanimously protest to defend with all Christian resolution their Orthodoxall fayth against their Enemyes the Arians Thirdly the falshood of the former Assertion is euicted from that that many Fathers and Doctours liuing in the very age of Aâ—hanasius and Libertus and diuers of them euen in the dayes of Athanasius and well knowne to hym did refute and contradict ex professo the Arian Heresy in their learned wrytings As for example Basil Gregory Nazianzene Gregory Nyssene Cyrill of Ierusalem Hilarius Ambrose Epiphanius and some others Now in respect of the Premisses can it be but dreamed that there should be no Professours of the Diuinity of Christ in those dayes but only Athanasius or Liberius Pag. 25. The Pamphleter leauing examples authorityes descendeth to Reason thus arguing Faith doth much consist of things which are not seene Therefore seing we beleiue the Holy Church as an article of our fayth it followeth that it needs not to be euer eminently visible or apparently sensible vnto vs. Learnedly concluded Therefore for the better instruction of this Pamphleter he is to vnderstand that in the Church of God there is something to be seene and something to be beleiued We do see that company of men which is the Church and therein the Church is euer visible But that that Company or Society is the true visible Church of God that we see not but only beleiue Euen as the Apostles did see that very Man which is Christ the Sonne of God but that he was the Sonne of God this the Apostles did not see but only beleiue In pag. 28. and 29. as also in some other pages afore he much insisteth in the words spoken of the Woman in the Reuelations cap. 12. of whom it was prophecyed that she should flye into the Wildernes affirming that by the Woman is vnderstood the Church which is not to be seene in tyme of persecution To this I answere first this passage being taken from out of the Reuelations cannot as euidently to vs men proue any thing seing the Reuelations being deliuered in visions prophecyes many of them being yet vnaccomplished and figuratiue speeches we cannot so easily apprehend the true sense meaning of them Secondly What diuers learned Catholicks and some Protestants do vnderstand by the Woman in the reuelations differently from the vrging of
should become accessory to our owne hurt to suffer such a man to passe vn punished Therefore I hope your Lordship will not preserue him whoÌ„ the Law hath ouerthrowne nor suffer his present calamity how great soeuer it may seeme to attract from your cleere iudgment commiseration pitty But rather you will vouchsafe to remember that he doubteth his crime who masketh it vnder the tecture of Religion This is that Michaeas homo pestiferus concitans seditionem who after his disputation in our Vniuersity with the most learned D. Reynolds made show presently to leaue our vniuersity and to retire himselfe into some forayne Countrey But many months haue since that time passed He during all the whyle secretly lourking among vs so the Spidar lyes close to surprise the incautelous flee seeketh to get priuate acquaintance with diuers eminent Maisters of Arts and others of the yonger sort Which being obtayned he then enuenometh their iudgments with Superstition and Idolatry and with his other Romish positions breathing disobedience disloyalty against the Magistrate And indeed he hath such a facility by slye and subtill insinuations to serue himselfe within the Schollars affections as that it is most wounderfull For first he commonly beginneth a farre off to talke with them of the nature of other Countreyes and of his owne trauells in other vniuersityes to which discourses our Schollars do lend their greedy eares before euer he entreth to talke of Religion And so like a good tabler he vsually playeth with them an aftergame the more speedily to come to his designed end The hurt which he hath already perpetrated in our vniuersity which is one of the two eyes of the whole Realme is great and insufferable and your Lordship well knowes that if the eye be wicked then all the Body shal be darke Therefore now at the lenght hauing apprehended him I haue conuerted him before your Lordship that so he may be punished by the Law who hath transgressed the Law LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Stand forth Michaeas Many and greiuous you see are the complaints giuen vp agaynst you from which you must either truly vindicate your selfe by being faultles therein or otherwise you must vndergoe the chastisment appointed for such offences And though we Iudges be ordayned to punish what is euill yet we are to wish that men do not prooue themselues euill And therefore I desire that your Innocency if innocent you be may be here cleared for I hould it a farre greater ouersight to punish the guiltles then to leaue vnpunished the guilty Since Iustice instructeth vs not to delight in punishment but to recurre to it for playne necessity Now speake Michaeas what you can in your owne defence MICHAEAS My Lord. I do heare first prostrate myselfe in all Humility before your Honour resting glad that though my accuser haue wronged me by thus falsly traducing me before your L. yet that it is my fortune to appeare before such a Iudge with whom Innocency shall find it sanctuary and only true faults be corrected for I presume that that sentence of the Psalmist is euen imprinted and sealed vp in your hart Rectè iudicate filij hominum Now for my more iust defense your L. may heare be aduertized that I am a Iew by byrth and Nation and a Roman by Religion and do hould that Ierusalem I meane the Church of Rome which is vpon earth the spirituall Ierusalem is the place where Men ought to worship I came into this florishing Kingdome only through my greate desire of seeing your famous and so much celebrated Vniuersityes with intention of returne in a conuenient tyme. Now I trust my L. I speake it vnder correction of your more experienced Iudgment that I as being a stranger and not borne within these dominions do not stand precisly subiect to the lawes of the said dominions And therefore what I haue committed suppose most to be true as most of it is false may well be an errour in me but any heinous cryme as now it is exagitated it cannot be And further euery Man well knowes that euen by the lawe of Nations the very name of a stranger who in this respect cannot take particular notise of the Municipall statuts and Ordinances of the Realme doth pleade excuse for many Transgressions the committers whereof being borne subiects are seuerely and deseruedly punished Therefore my L. since Lawes are made rather to succour then to wound Mankynd I dowbt not but your L. will heare dispence with all sterne seuerity and will remember that saying of an auncient Father Facilius Ira quam Indulgentia obliqua est VICE CHANCELOVR See you not my L. how this Polypragmon this Michaeas dare not only without feare violate the lawes of our Realme but also will needs braue it before your Lorship that for being a stranger and not borne in our Nation he stands not subiect to the said Lawes and thereupon doth iustify his impietyes but it seemes he gloryes to be extremly facinorous Est mali dignitas quod in summo pessimorum collocetur L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaeas Your Plea heare is most weake and defectiue for though you be a stranger and as you say not borne vnder the lawes of our Dominions yet you must know that you had leasure enoughe to be acquainted with our Lawes before you entred into our Country or at lest within short tyme after And you must conceaue that the Lawes being made by the consent of the whole Realme are not to be violated in fauour of any one Man Furthermore where you speake of Priuiledges and Indulgences allowed to strangers euen by all Nationall Lawes you must â—â—ke notize that these fauours are imparted to strangers with some conditions and restrictions to wit if the bad compâ—rtment and cariadge of the said strangers do not worthely 〈◊〉 them of participating of the said Priuiledges since otherwise no reason there is why they should be partakers of them And indeed the lesse reason because in tyme of Necessity when the Prince is to command aydes forces or Tributs from his subiects no such releife and helps can be expected at the hands of any strangers resyding in his Country Lastly it were repugnant to the nature of Iustice which in it selfe is euer sacred and inuiolable that a stranger such an one as you Michaeas are by comming into a forrayne Country and as it were by indeuizing hymselfe for the tyme should become a subiect in the fruition of the benefits of the said Country And yet when he would performe any vnlawfull act he should of new create himselfe a stranger Therefore Michaeas my iudgment here is that you stand obnoxions and subiect to our lawes And therefore you must either plead yourselfe innocent in the obiected Crymes or els the Lawes of our Realme will iustly take hould of you What say you therefore to the offences wherewith you heere stand charged MICHAEAS Well my good Lord since it is so I humbly submit myselfe
of Dauid Who though the eternall punishment due to the guilt of his sinns was for giuen yet was punished temporally by the death of his Sonne For these are the words in Scripture after his sinne was forgiuen Because thou hast caused the name of God to be blasphemed the Child that is borne to thâ—e shall dye In lyke sort Dauids sinne in numberring his People being remitted him yet was he put to chuse for his temporall punishmeÌ„t and satisfaction either Warre Famine or Pestilence Now the guilt of eternall damnation for sinne being remitted there remaineth a temporall punishment And this teÌ„porall punishment thus reserued is the sole subiect of Indulgences Therefore an Indulgence as heare the word is taken is a mercifull relaxation or remission of temporall punishment due for sinne by applying the super abundant satisfaction of Christ after the sinne it selfe and guilt of eternall damnation due to mortall sinne is remitted by the Sacrament of Confession or for want thereof by perfect Contrition The ground and foundation of Indulgencs is cheifly the treasury and satisfaction of Christs death which is of that infinity greate valew an pryce seeing euery drop of his bloud was able to redeeme a thousands Worlds in regard of his Diuinity being vnited to his Humanity as that it can ueuer be exhausted For we reade that Christ dyed for all Also that Christ is apropitiation for our sinns and not for our sinns only but for the Sinns of the whole World But it is certaine that the pryce of Christs death was not actually applyed to all Men hitherto liuing since then it would follow that all Men which hitherto haue liued should haue bene saued Therefore it followeth that theare yet remayneth a greate abundance of the pryce of Christ passion if it were not in finite as indeede it is to be applyed and still will remaine The dispenser of this treasury of the Church is the Heade of Christs Church who hath power to apply this treasury for the absoluing of Men from their temporall punishment due to their Sinns allready remitted by Sacramentall Confession according to the authority geuen him in those words Whatsoeuer thou losest vpon earth shal be losed in Heauen with which place accord other places of the Euangelists Now these words being generall they do extend as well to the punishment due for sinne as to the sinne itselfe seing the punishment is as remissible as the Sinne And as to the one are applyed Christs Meritts so to the other Christs â—atisfactions The Cause why any Indulgence is granted to any Man ought to be iust and reasonable or otherwyse the Indulgence granted is of no valew for seing the Pope is not Lord of this spirituall treasure of the Church but only the distributer thereof therefore this distribution he cannot make without a iust reasonable and lawfull Cause The Partie receauing the benefit of an Indulgence ought at the tyme of receauing it to be in state of grace since otherwise he can reape no benefit by any Indulgence to which state he is brought by true Contrition of his former Sinns although not perhaps forgeuen in respect of eternall damnation in the Sacrament of Confession And heare is discouered the trissling vanity falshood of our Aduersaries in affirming that the Catholicks teach that the Pope can giue a fore hand an Indulgence to any Man for any sinne which hereafter is to be committed Since wee see that the obiect of an Indulgence is the temporall punishment only and not the punishment of damnation and this for a sinne allready committed and not hereafter to be committed of which a Man being in state of grace and consequently not one who beareth a present resolution to commit any sinne hereafter is remitted by his Indulgence applyed to hym vpon iust and reasonable Causes We are further heare to admonish that the Partie receauing an Indulgence ought to performe entyrely and precisly all things enioyned hym by his Indulgence Whether it be prayer Alms fasting c. According to that vsuall saying Indulgentia tantum valent quantum sonant Wheare it is taught that the Merits and suffrings of some greate Saincts as of our Blessed Lady S Iohn Baptiste and some others do concurre to the encrease of this spirituall Treasure of the Church which is the foundation of Indulgences this is to be vnderstood in this sense to wit that because their Meritts works and sufferings haue their vertue and valew only from the Meritts of our Sauiours Passion And that they onely concurre to the increase of the treasure as they depend vpon the meritts of Christ therefore it may be truly said that primatiuely and Originally only the Meritts and Passion of Christ do make this spirituall treasure from whence Indulgences do flowe Ad hearto that if S. Paule might truly say in a researued sense Ad imple ea quae desunt passionum Christi in earne mea pro corporâ—â—ius quod est Ecclesia I do fullfill those things that do want of the passion of Christ in my flesh for his body which is the Church words which if any Catholicke should haue auerred of any one Sainct without the warrant of the Apostle he should haue bene mighrely calumnâ—ated and wronged by the Protestants then followeth it that the afflictions and sufferings of S. Paule as receauing their force from Christs PassioÌ„ may be said without any indignitie to Christ to encreasse this spirituall treasure of the Church For these former words do not import that there was any defect in the Passion of Christ but that the sufferings of S. Paule did fulfill the plenitude of Christ his Passion and his members for the benefit of those to whom they are to be communicated For as Christ being the inuisible and supreme heade of his Church doth with his Church make but one mysticall body so his sufferings with the sufferings of his members receauing all their force and efficacy from the Passion of Christ do make as S. Austin affirmeth one common and publâ—ke Weâ—le or one publike treasure And according hereto it is that we fynd offered S. Paules afflictions sometymes for the Colossians at other times for the Corinthians he desiring at one tyme to dye for the Romans at an other tyme to become an Aâ—athemâ— for them To proceede further The Old Testament it selfe warranteth this mutuall communication of one suffering for an other And in this sense it is said of Gods Church there entituled Ierusalem that it is as a Citty whose participationes in it selfe That is As in a publicke Citty there is a generall trafficke for the publicke benefit of euery particular Citizen So in the Citty of God which is his Church there is a communion or participation of all the spirituall works thereof to the generall benefit and behooâ—e of eich particular Man And vpon this ground it is that Dauid said in respect of the communication of one Mans sufferings for an other
to cast vp some earth of innouations and noueltyes comparting perhapps in some one or two points with the sectarâ—es of these dayes But to iustify in those men the visibility of the Protestant Church or that they were Protestants which is at this present the poynt only issuable I hould it impossible Except we will dreame that those persons did pertake of the nature of the planet Mercury which euer participateth as the Astrologers teach of all the influences of that other starre or planet with which it is in any sort in coniunction Be it then that some Innouatours in seuerall Centuryes haue contumactously defended some one or other Theoreme or principle without which the entyre frame of Protestancy cannot subsist Will any of you from hence conclude and yet many Protestants do so conclude that such Mens Religion was perfect Protestancy By the like reason you may inferre to insist in similitudes within your owne spheare that Vnity is a Number a Poynt Quantity an Instant Tyme Wheras you know well that these are only beginnings or Elements of Number Quantity and Tyme and without which these later can haue no being In regard then of such want of visible Protestants informer tymes It is lesse wounder that some Protestant wryters haue thought good to Idëate frame in their myndâ— a certayne mathematicall and airy Church within which a number only of supposed inuisibilities are comprehended Thus much touching this second Dialogue to the which I haue thought good to subnect as an Appendix a short view taken of an Anonymous and froathy Pamphlet entituled A Treatise of the perpetuall visibility and succession of the true Church in al Ages written some few yeares since and set forth as is supposed by Doctour Featly Now in this last place to come to the third and last Dialogue The subiect whereof is to manifest that the Protestants by many degrees stand more iustly chargeable both with the doctrine and practise of disloyalty agaynst their lawfull Princes then the Catholiks do And that the Protestants haue therefore small reason and lesse policy to vpbrayde in their pulpits and writings as it is their accustomed Scene to doe the Catholicks with any such hatefull cryme In this last Dialogue are also seuerall insertions of some small Treatises in defence of diuers Catholike doctrines The Interlocutours in this Dialogue are the right Honorable the Lord Cheife Iustice of England to whom all dutifull comportment is borne throughout this Discourse Michaeas the former Iew and M. Vice-Chancelour of Oxford That the Vice-Chacelour is therein introduced to be partly malignant agaynst Michaeas as charged by him besides with other offences for being a Catholike Priest is not strange considering how splenfull some Vice-Chancelours of that Vniuersity haue borne themselues towards certayne Priests there heretofore apprehended Thus farre particularly of the different subiects of these ensuing Dialogues Which point is more largly set downe in the Arguments of euery one of them Now most illustrious Men I haue presumed and I hope this my presumption will in your fauourable construction be warrantable to dedicate this whole worke to your selues not for your patronage thereof for that only it owne worth If any be in it must effect but partly because you are best able to iudge of the arguments produced on eyther side and partly in regard I haue selected out of eyther of your Vniuersities one of the most pryme and choysest men in their dayes to be speakers in these Dialogues I meane as aboue is sayd Doctour Whitakers and Doctour Reynolds I could wish you would not sleight it through a cold seuerity proceeding from a forestauled iudgment against the Catholike fayth in generall but peruse it indifferently and weigh the authorityes and reasons withall Candour and impartiality Touching my owne sincerity vsed throughout this labour know you that if I haue purposely and deliberatly detorted from it true meaning but any one authority here produced by me then let my forhead be publikly seared with an indeleble Stigma or print of shame and Confusion No. He is not Religious who handleth Religion with fraud and impostures And I am so free and guiltles herein as that I dare vaunt my selfe to be in this respect a Tetragonon cast me vp what way you will my demeanour in this case will proue eauen squared Do not expect any Oratory here but what the force of vnauoydable Demonstrations can perswade And in this sence I trust I may without vanity say you shall find Oratory Since Truth is euer eloquent But now most celebrious Academians giue me leaue to turne my pen more particularly to your selues and pardon this my boldnes it proceeding solely out of my charitable affection and out of my desire of aduancing your spirituall Good for you are Our Epistle written in our harts Well then you are learned and therefore if grace assist the more able to transpierce through any difficulties of Fayth now questioned Suffer not then your Iudgements to be enthralled to the iudgments of some few men among you more eminent then the rest they being Byrds whose Aery is but in the high Cedars of the pretended reuealing Spirit since through their assumed priuiledge therof they are not ashamed to reduce the construction of Scripture and the weight of all authorityes whatsoeuer to the Tribunall of their owne Censure scornfullly contemning whatsouer passeth not vnder the fyle of their owne approbation But to proceed forward It is a thing wounderfull and indeed deplorable to obserue the the exorbitancy of most Schollers proceedings and perhapps of diuers of you in these poynts I meane to see what labour and toyle they bestowe in humane studyes and how remisse they are in search of true fayth I assure my selfe that many of you haue indefatigably spent much tyme in seeking to know Whether the Opinions of Copernicus touching the Motion of the Earth and standing still of the sunn and Primum Mobile can be made probable Whether a Concentrike Orbe with an Epicycle or an Excentrike Orbe alone can better salue the Phaynomena and irregular Apparences of the Planetts Whether ech Orbe be moued a Propria Intelligentia or ab interna forma Whether supposing Infinitum to be in Rerum natura One Infinitum can be greater then an other Which poynt some Philosophers exemplify in the infinit reuolutions of the Sunne and the Moone the Moone performing her course twelue or 13. tymes in that space in which the Sunne doth but once And yet both their reuolutions must be infinit in Number if one will grant with Aristotle that the world was ab aeterno Whether Corpus Sphaericum tangit planum only in puncto What is the cause why the Sea keepeth a different course in it ebbing flowing in different Countreyes though to those seuerall Countreyes the Moone beareth one and the same aspect of it light Whether when the loadstone draweth iron vnto it this be effected through a naturall Sympathy of these two Bodyes or