because if they be not of that sort they affoard no such absolute separation at all but only from wilful rebellious and obstinate disobeyers euill speakers and from apparant grosse corruptions but not from the vvhole publike body of those assemblies nor from the lavvfull and good things vsed in such times aÌ„d standings as have not vvholy svvarued from the faith though there vvere divers grievous faults both in doctrine and practise suffered among them As by the example of the Ievvish Churches in the times of the Prophets especially of Christ himselfe may plainly appeare The Euangelistes make mention in diuers places That they worshipped God in vayne teaching for doctrine mens preceptes They made their proselites the Children of Hell two fold more then they were before They made the commaundements of God of none effect by theyr traditions such as beleeved in Christ they excommunicated c. Yet vvere they a true Church notvvithstanding these and many other grievous enormities vvith vvhom Christ himself and his Apostles had communion and fellovvship sometime in those good things that vvere among them And so might they vvith the Churches of England vvithout iustifying or allovving these things vvhich they see to be euill All vvhich things doe more fully appeare in the conference it selfe as it follovveth hereafter The Aunswer May it not fitly be said and applyed to D. B. in this case which Christ hath spoken concerning all such How sayest thow to thy brother Suffer me to cast a mote out of thyne eye and behold a beame is in thyne owne eye Hypocrite first cast the beame out of thyne owne eye and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brothers eye Mat. 7.4.5 Even the very last thing yea and all the show from Scripture that he brought for defence off theyr Church-estate what is it els but the wresting and misapplying of that Scripture to the Corinthians viz. 1. Cor. 3.12.15 as before may be seen in his Second note And now agayne for those Scriptures which here in his Third note he setteth downe eyther as alledged by vs or noted by himself out of the Evangelists for defence of theyr estate what other thing doth he in aunswer of the one or allegation of the other but onely pervert aÌ„d misapply them against the true sence and purpose of the Spirit of God therein Yet â—o so impudent is this Baalâ—e become as having so great a beame in his owne eye he will yet pretend as if he saw a mote in anothers eye and think he hath sayd ynough in defence of himself and his Churches estate if he can but pretend that others misapply the Scriptures against them But as Salomon saith Better is the poore that walketh in his vprightnes then he that abuseth his lips and is a foole Proveâ— 19.1 Therefore will I here both shew the vprightnes of our walking and withall convince the foolish abuse of his lips First then note that there are three things specially for which we alledge these and many other Scriptures which he concealeth Namely 1. That in the constitution of every true visible Church even from the beginning of the world this hath alway ben one speciall thing to be observed that it was separated from the world and abominations thereof Neyther otherwise could there ever be any true visible Church vpon the earth And yet with the Church of England it is not thus in theyr estate 2. That the Church of England now standing in confusion with the world and subiection to Antichrists Ministery worship c. we therefore as all other the people of God are bound to separate and depart from it because otherwise we could not but partake in her sinnes and so be subiect also to receyve of her plagues 3. That being thus separated from them we are bound to ioyne to the true Church of Christ in the communion of his Gospell to keep all his ordinances whatsoever he hath in his word prescribed for his Church notwithstanding any persecution or exception of Man to the contrary These three things are so evidently and vndeniably taught in these and the like Scriptures throughout the book of God as it is straunge and lamentable that any having them thus applyed should yet be so piteously blynd as not to see it or so impudently bold as to deny it For other the like Scriptures therefore teaching the same things see these also Gen. 9.27 12.1.4.7 19 12-16 et 35.2.3 Exod. 4.22.23 8.25.26.27 10.8.9.24.25.26 19.5.6 20.4.5.6 Numb 16.26 Deut. 7.3.5.6.11 Lev. 18.30 Ezra 9.14 Psal 110.3 119.21.113.128 Esa 2.2.3 8 12-18 9.16 44.5 Ier. 4.18 15.19 18.12.15 50.4.5.8 Ezech. 16.44 22.26 Micah 2.10 Zach. 2.7 8.21.22.23 Mal. 1.6.7.8.12.13.14 ct 2.8.9.13 3.16.17.18 Mat. 28.20 Ioh. 7.17 10.1 5. Act. 2.41.47 5.29 9.26.27.28 17.4.7.34 28.24 Rom. 16.17.18 1 Cor. 5.6.7 Phil. 1.5.27.28 3.2 Col. 2.8.22.23 1 Thes 5.22 2 Thes 3 3-12 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5.13.14 2 Tim. 3.1.2.3.13.14.15 2 Ioh. ver 9.10.11 Iude ver 3. Rev. 14.9.12 17.14 19. 9. 20.4.6 and 21.7.8.27 and 22 10-19 The words of these and the like Scriptures I need not here set downe The godly Reader will search them I doubt not after the example of the Beâ—eans so much commended by the Spirit of God Act. 17.11 Next I aunswer that the Apostles do themselues so alledge and apply the Scriptures to the matters which they handle as we after theyr example do in this For proof hereof see but these places following and mynd them well 1 Cor. 6.16 and 9.9.10 and 10 7-18 and 14.21 Rom. 9.25.26.27 28.29 and 10.18 Heb. 2 13.14 and 3.7 c. and 12.26 29. and 13.2.5.6 Iam. 2.8.9.10.21.22.23 and 4.5.6 and 5.16.17.18 1 Pet. 1.16 and 2. to and 3.20.21 2 Pet. 2. ch Ioh. 19.36 1 Ioh. 3.12.15 Iude ver 5.6.7.11.14.15 Rev. 11.8 Now compare herewith the places in the old Testament from whence these are borrowed and you shall fynd that divers differences might be noted between the one and the other Shall we therefore say that they are wrested or misapplyed by the Apostles God forbid To give an instance or two The Apostle Paul alledgeth that against fornication which by Moses was first spoken of lawfull mariage 1 Cor. 6.16 compared vvith Gen. 2.24 And in the same Epistle albeit the Corinthians which were of the Church there did not worship God by the Idols of Corinth but did onely eat at the feasts in the Temple which were after the sacrifices done yet the Apostle alledgeth agaynst them the example of the Israelites who both made a golden calfe and by it worshipped the Lord. 1 Cor. 8. and 10. chap. vvith Exod. 32.5.6 And the Apostle Iames speaking but of one particular breach of the Law viz the accepting of mens persons alledgeth and applyeth against it the summe of the whole Second Table Iam. 2.8.9.10 vvith Let. 19.18 And Iude agaynst Apostates Schismatiks disbounders
Church of England the abominations aforesayd concerning the outward order and gouernment of the Church whatsoever trueths they hold besides yet can they not by the word of God be deemed truely to hold the Lord Iesus their Prophet Priest King in such constitution of a Church Neither therefore can they in this estate by the vvord of God be accounted true Christians nor the true constituted Churches of Christ And this is all the question between vs. 7. Lastly let the godly and indifferent Reader iudge whether it will not follow vpon your aunswer in this place First that the Scriptures are not sufficient for the building vp and guidance of the Church here on earth Which is contary to 1 Tim. 3.15 2 Tim. 3.16 Deut. 12.32 1 Cor 4.6 Rev. 22.18.19 Secondly that the man of God can not by the Scriptures be made absolute and fully furnished to euery good worke Which is contrary to 2 Tim. 3.17 1 Tim. 3.15 Pro. 2.1.9 Psal 119.105.113 Thirdly that Christ himselfe in vvhome the treasures of vvisdome and knovvledge are hid yet was so foolish carelesse and vnfaithfull as having an house and kingdome which is his Church he hath not in his word appointed vnto it any Offices Lawes and Orders for the due governing and ordering thereof Which is contrary to Col. 2.3 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Esay 33.22 Ephe. 4.11.12.13 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. Rom. 12.3.4.5.6.7.8 Mat. 28.20 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Finally that the Hierachy Worship Sacramēts Traditions Canons and vvhatsoeuer constitutions of Antichrist concerning the outvvard orders and gouernement of the Church being appointed by the Church and Magistrate are to be accounted Christes ovvne Which is contrary to 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 Psa 94.20 119.21.113.128 Rev. 9.1.2.3 14.9 11. O shameles impietie This doubtles is that strange passion and meere desperatenes wherewith you do hereafter vniustly charge vs which we will not here prosecute as it deserveth but exhort you onely to take heed least that vvo come vpon you which is written VVoe vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darkenes for light and light for darknes that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter VVo vnto them that are wise in their owne eyes and prudent in their owne sight Esay 5.20.21 H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 2. Excep IN this your defence of your second Exception it pittieth me to see your extreame folly which is the more miserable because it appeareth to be not of weaknes but of wilfulnes You would know of vs if we hold Christ to be out Prophet Priest and King if we professe to obey him in his ordinances in no other I ansvvered vve do cōstantly professe so as vve professe so vve practise But to make our profession and practise in this poinct more manifest I noted hovv our state meaneth Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and hovv he is to be obeyed viz. That the vvritten vvord ought of necessity to shevv vs our invvard and meer spirituall beleif and obedience As for the outvvard Church order our state holdeth that it is arbitrary to be appoincted and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate And that the worde no vvhere forbiddeth this libertie Where note in this explication tvvo thinges First it is foule vvrong to our Churches and to my vvordes to say as you do That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures Nay it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though external yet are perpetuall things and necessarie and vnchangeable by the Scriptures My expresse vvords and our Churches meaning is That any reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement and rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be our onely and absolute King and Prophet neuerthelesse Whosoeuer doth vrge vpon our Churches further or on my wordes doth slaunder and cauill and malitiously depraue them and nothing else Secondly note in my explication that I iustifie not this opinion of our state but I say Thus to beleeue and practise simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ which you denying generally and vehemently in your sixt aunsvver you deny directly Maister Cranmer c. to haue held the foundation or to be saued vvherein you openly professe and proclaime that second generall poinct vvhich in the beginning I charged you vvith That all Churches and Christians here in King Edvvards time and namely Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper Philpot Saunders Rogers Tailor c. held not Christ their Prophet Priest and King and so consequently they vvere lims of Antichrist for they bare his marke euen to their deaths and no true Christians Alas to see hovv malice and preiudice hath blinded you Is there not greater cause for vs to cry and say against you O shamelesse mouth O vnchristian hart vvhich termes you vainely charge vpon me Is this you that white the Toombs of those Martirs yet in fine condempne them for no true Christians nor their Assemblies for Churches You adde a clause They that professe and practise as doth the Church of England c. If you meane hereby to put a difference betwene those good mens holding this opinion and our Churches now Yea betwene your owne lately and ours novv speake out vvhat is it You can imagine none but this Those good men Maister Cranmer Ridley c. and your selfe of late held these very same errors of the outvvard Church order vvhich vve do But they and you did it seemeth of simplicity vve malitiously they of ignorance vve of plaine obstinacy and hauing a convicted and seared conscience vvhereby they and you might be true Christians for all these errors but vve novv cannot be so If this be your meaning then you graunt vs our Assumption against vvhich all your dispute here is bent You graunt it I say That the whole doctrine as it is by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Secondly we now erre not in these poincts of simplicity but of wilfulnes and malice Say you so Speake that plaine then Our whole assemblies all and euery of our assemblies of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience Are you sure of this Doe you know euery mans hart and conscience so well If you do then you say somwhat indeed But you are then neere as wise as God himselfe to know mens hearts so perfectly whose faces you neuer saw You will say you know diuers whome you dare say are convicted in conscience That is much also to affirme But if you do that serueth not your turne vnlesse all be so conuicted Christ knew a great many in the Church of the Iewes yea of the learnedst and cheifest in authority that were conuicted in conscience that he was the Christ who blasphemed in denying him and yet the Assēblies then were not conuicted they still were true Churches
they adde the persecuting also of such as do convince them Now when you have showed how your self vnderstand and how we are to walke in these according to the Scriptures from point to point then applie herevnto your example of Christ here alledged and see if you do not abuse it Mind withall that if you say Christ knew this as he was God you speak nothing to the question which is how men must walk toward men If you say he knew it as he vvas man then must you prove 1. that these Iewes were convicted in conscience that he was the Christ and yet denied and blasphemed him 2. that Christ knew this as he was man 3. that still he joyned in spirituall communion with them thus convicted 4. that the estate of your Ministers and people is such as theirs was then as touching a true Ministerie and constitution of the Church 5. that the same rules and proceeding is to be vsed toward your Church and members thereof afore they can be separated from that was to be vsed toward that Church and People at that time Mind also that the Apostles preaching to the Iewes though they knew not who were convicted in conscience who not yet * Act. 2. et 13. et 17. et 18. et 19. chap vpon their refusall of the truth offred did separate from all where they were And so Christ before had required them to do Mat. 10.14 Finally mind that mens consciences are blind ignorant corrupt and the heart of man deceitful and wicked above all things Who can know it but the Lord only which searcheth the heart and trieth the reines to give every man according to his waies according to the fruit of his works Ier. 17.9.10 It is erroneous therefore to hold as you do that we may not separate till we know all to be convicted in their conscience If this were to be done then neither separation from any people neither any true Churches should ever be vpon the earth because such conviction can never be either knowen of men or had in the world It doth and must suffice vs that the truth on the one hand and the errors on the other be made knowen and convicted that is be layd open and proved from the word of God by the testimonie of his servants and that we see men by words or workes refuse the truth and imbrace error and so judg themselves vnworthy of euerlasting life Thus for your Churches M. Iacob it sufficeth vs that in your Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of people they be proved the daughters of Babylon that mother of whoredomes Out of which God hath †Rev. 18.4 17.5 vve Ezec. 16.44 charged all his people without exception or delay presently for to depart If you or any other will not obey this commaundement of God but will still partake in the sinnes of your worship and Ministery what is it to vs We must follow Christ * Heb. 5.9 who is made author of saluation to such onely as obey him Neither may we †Ier. 15.19 returne vnto you but we must waite till God bring you to vs and make you partakers of the same grace in Christ Of your third generall point here idly mentioned and absurdly gathered I have spoken before Pag. 8. Next instead of aunswering you fall a marveling because I say Mr. Hus and other of the holy Martyrs did heare and say Masse to their dying day and some of them also acknowledg the Popes supremacy But why do you not also marvell that I sayd divers of them acknowledged some the Popes calling some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some Auricular confession and such like grieuous errors For these I ioyned with the other and of them you speak not a word Belike you thinke they may stand with the Gospell wel inough and if your Church had retained or now should resume them againe you would judg of them as of the other corruptions remaining among you Yet mind withall 1. that thus you make a way for mo popish enormities to be mainteined and to prevaile apace in your Church as “ Hovv say you to those Popish doctrines novv spreading among you of Christes soule descēding into Hel. of freevvill c. beginneth alredy very fast 2. And that you can no better nor otherwise defend your present Church-estate then you could if it also retayned seven Sacraments Purgatory Auricular confession c. Let the Reader observe this And beware you in time least a wo come vpon you for such halting and pleading for Baall Now for your marvelling at me for saying thus of Mr. Hus and other the Martyrs I aske you Saith not the book of Acts and Monuments the same yea say not the Martyrs thus much of themselves Why do you not then marvell also at them For these particulars it were needles to go through all the historie of the Martyrs specially seeing they are so plainly noted in their stories and every where among you the books are in your hands Yet because Mr. Hus is here spoken of by name and you are not far frō rasing him out of the nūber of the Martyrs I will first note some particulars concerning him and then cleare him and the rest from your rash condemnation In the historie of the Martyrs before mentioned we find that Iohn Hus vnto his death held 1. †Act. and Monu edit 5. pag. 561. seven Sacramēts 2. ‡ Ibid. pag. 581. a. 584. b the Popes office and the authority of the Church of Rome 3. “ Ibid. p. 566 b. et 574. Auricular cōfession to Priests and was himself a little before his death confessed and absolved by a Monke 4. * Ibid. p. 577 a. et 581. a. said Masse himself 5. †Ibid. p. 546 held that the substance of the bread was altered into the body of Christ and that Christs body which was borne of the virgin Mary is really and totally in the Sacrament of the Altar with other the like popish opinions Now you Mr. Iacob sticke not vpon some of these to inferre that then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest that so held and did vvere holy Martyrs Your reason is because therein are found errors plainely fundamētall vvhich of them selues abolish from Christ Among which no doubt but you reckon the Masse and transubstantiation specially Thus haue you cleane put out Maister Hus and other the servants of Christ faithfull in that which they saw from being any longer in the Catalogue of the Martyrs or accounted true Christians May I not then iustly returne vpon your self your owne saying Is this you that vvhite the toombes of the Martyrs and yet in fine condemne them for no true Christians for no holy Martyrs But you say the book of Acts and Monuments vvhither I send you affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Let the book it self speak for vs both In the end of Iohn Hus his storie thus it saith
any thing more intolerable yea that the retayning of these is not a corruption of Christianity but a manifest defection from Christ Now if fower or five of theyr corruptions yea if two of them be a manifest departing from the faith of Christ what may we think of theyr whole Hierarchy and multitude of Antichristian abominations retayned among them besides Yet this mans conscience is so feared as he feareth not to say though they were thrice as many as they are yet they are not to the purpose for which they are vrged that is to convince the Antichristian constitution of theyr Church and to warrant separation therefrom Which is as much as if he should say more plainely Let the Apostels say of it what they will and let Christ himself commaund vs never so straitly to separate from such and to towch no vncleane thing at all 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 18.4 2 Cor. 6.17 Yet it is to no purpose if D. B. and Mr Iacob with theyr consorts agree otherwise The Anabaptisticall perfection then whereof he dreameth he may well apply to himself and his fellowes who will be perfit and holy in theyr way if theyr owne faucyes perswade them so albeit they stand in never so many knowen errors and those also of Antichrist yea and peremptorily condemne all such as partake not in theyr sinnes but separate from theyr Antichristian worship and Ministery as Christ hath commaunded The way aÌ„d coÌ„stitutioÌ„ of our Church is according to the TestameÌ„t of Christ Weakly in deed aÌ„d with much imperfectioÌ„ do we walk therein by reasoÌ„ of sinne that doth so compasse aÌ„d cleave fast vnto vs. Neyther was there ever in the world any Churches or Christians whose case was not such Nor can we ever look for other vpon the earth Even the Prophets and Apostles have thus acknowledged of themselves Esa 64.6 9. Psal 19.12.13 and 103.10 Iob. 9.30.31 Hab. 3.1 Rom. 7.14 c. 1 Cor. 13.9.12 Heb. 12 1. Iam. 3.2 1 Pet. 4.17.18 1 Ioh. 1.8.9.10 and 2.1.2 But should we therefore be perswaded to abide in knowen errors or to iustify such Churches as stand in the way and constitution of Antichrist Common sence might teach to reason otherwise and to discerne between things that differ so much as these doe one from another For our difference of judgement in some things if it were as he saith yet it would nothing availe them The * Act. 11. 15. and 21. Chap. Rom. 14. ch 1 Cor. 8. and 10. chap. Phil. 3.15.16 Christians in the Primitive Churches differed in iudgement amoÌ„g themselves in divers waighty things some concerning Iudaisme some concerning Paganisme c. And synce that tyme “ See the Acts and Mounuents c. the Martyrs in Queen Maryes dayes and former ages did in sundry things and those of great moment and concerning Antichrists religion differ in judgement one from another Should these therefore have approved and taken part with the Iewish Heathnish or Popish Churches in theyr other errors wherein they did joyntly see and witnesse the truth against them Or will he say there was therefore no equity in theyr dealing because they did it not Or that they were so vvholy given and bent theyr vvits and mynds so much to look into the estate of other men and other Churches and to apply the Scriptures to them as they seldome or never lookt into theyr ovvne estate or applyed the Scriptures to themselues Yet thus absurdly and vnconscionably doth this man reason against vs. Off which more hereafter Now for the particulars here mentioned the first which is of swearing by a book is an impudent vntruth so far as ever I knew or heard of any among vs. Not onely some but all of vs hold it simply vnlawfull to sweare by a book It is * Deut. 6.13 the Name of the Lord onely by which all men ought to sweare Thus we do all professe and practise In deed about the ceremony of laying the hand vpon the book thereby to signify that we do take the oath there hath ben question some thinking that it might be so done as †Gen. 24.2.3.9 Abrahams servant when he took an oath put his hand vnder his Maisters thigh and persware vnto him onely by the Lord God of heaven and earth or as Abraham did himself lift vp his hand to the Lord when he sware or vowed vnto him as we read Gen. 14.22 Others thinking that because it hath ben superstitiously abused and still may nourish in the ignorant the error of swearing by the book that therefore it should not be done 1. Thes 5.22 And notwithstanding this difference yet all of vs for the reasons last alleadged think it better to be left then retayned still and some other ceremony free from such pollution and daunger as the lifting vp of the hand to heaven or such like to be vsed instead thereof For probates of vvils taking of administration suing c. some it may be think that the things themselves being in theyr nature meerly Civill and the ordering of them being put over to the Doctors and Professors of the Civill Law they might thus far be admitted And this so much the rather because if all the Popish Hierarchy and Canons were quite abolished out of the Land as they ought to be Yet an order for these things notwithstanding were still to be had and such as are skilfull in the Civill Law might be employed thereyn aswell as any other of the Common wealth being by the Prince and Magistraeâ—s appoynted therevnto Others thinking that inasmuch as these causes Courts aÌ„d Officers are now in theyr estate committed to the Prelates whose functions are meerly Antichristian that therefore they should not be admitted at all Yet here agayne all of vs agree in this that the whole Hierarchy with whatsoever belongeth thereto is wholy to be abandoned and refused and no spirituall communion to be had therewith at all For shutting vp of shops on Holy dayes and Festivall dayes c. as he doth Popishly terme them What if some think that our bodyes goods and lands being subiect in the Lord as they ought to the Magistrates that therefore they may at theyr appointment then shift by theyr shops as they do on the Queens day or such like solemnityes And others think that forasmuch as theyr Holydayes both are popish dayes and popishly vsed for theyr divine worship that therefore they should not shut vp theyr shops on these dayes more then any other Yet all agree in this that these dayes though the Prince commaund it never so straily are no more to be set apart or vsed for publik worship then any other of the sir week-dayes Also that they need not leave theyr work any more on those dayes then any other whatsoever These are the particulars he nameth If he could have mentioned any other of greater moment you may be sure they should not have ben omitted Let him know then that we â—o and ought
vvicked persons theyr offices beeing very gainefull and besides they liuing vnder the authoritie of the Heathirish Romans vvho ruled ouer them All these things considered it is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution on vvhich they so much depend vvere vvholy altered from the right institution and therefore vvould make nothing for them As for theyr allegation of Mat. 23.1 VVhere they say Christ testifieth that they had true offices by saying they satt in Moses chaire It vvill not help them any vvhit at all For Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chaire must be vnderstood of somevvhat else themselves ‡ ‡ Mr Barrovv Mr Greēvvood in diuers Letters and Treatises have vnderstood it heretofore of Moses doctrine The Aunswer Do not they erre that imagine evill And doth not a deceyver speak lyes Prov. 14.22.25 What then may we think of him that counteth it a small thing to lye against Man if he do not also open his mouth against heaven and give the lye to the holy Ghost himself See both in this man here Against vs and I feare against his own conscience he forgeth a lye when he sayth vve do vvholy depend on their outvvard constitution c. For he knoweth we obiect against them besides and separate from them for much false doctrine publikly taught and mainteyned among them and for theyr wretched persecution of the truth and Martyrs of Iesus Therefore do we not wholy depend on theyr outward constitution From which it is to be noted that he severeth theyr publik doctrine as himself sheweth in the next Section and so therefore here we speak accordingly And that he knoweth these things appeareth both by this Treatise first published by himself where we have declared it in divers particulars Pag. 66. 108. 157. 158 159. 160. and in that himself hath seen and alleadgeth in this very Section another treatise written in answer of Mr A. H. where mo instances are given concerning this matter As may be seen in that book Pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. 22. 23. 37. 90. 91. To the holy Ghost he giveth the lye yea and maketh Christ our Lord a sinner in that which here he speaketh first of the constitution of the Ievvish Churches For the Scripture teacheth that the constitution of that Church was a true one and that Christ did himself communicate therein with them Yet this man besides that he sayth afterward that it is very likely the offices and outvvard constitution thereof vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Euen here at first he sayth peremptorily that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Which how shamefully false it is may appeare even by this that in those very tymes the estate of the Iewes Church yet was such as they were a people separated from the world having the true Ministery ordinances worship and administration which God by Moses had commanded As these Scriptures do plainely testify Luk. 1.6.8 9.10 11. 2.22.23.24.27.46 Mat. 8.4 Ioh. 1.19 4.22 5.1 11.55.2 Tim. 1.3.5 Yea they would not at any hand admit eyther of confusion of people or of any other Ministery then God had ordeyned As may be seen for the first in Act. 21.28 29. and for the latter in Iob. 1 19-25 Mat. 21.25.26 How shameles then is it to say as here he doth that theyr constitution was as greatly altered and corrupted as that of the Churches of England which to this day stand confused of all sorts of people aswell the prophanest as the best among them and have no other Ministery or Leiturgy but such as they have receyved from Antichrist the man of sinne and from Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 And further if the Iewish Church had ben thus corrupted as he feareth not to affirme how could Christ have communicated with them as he did but he must needs have sinned ād that highly against the Law of God viz. if he had as it is now in England joyned to such a Church as were vnseparated from the World or had partaken with a false Ministery or had sent others to a straunge Priesthood and Service or had approved by word or deed any other ordinances then those which God had commaunded c. This Scribe then must eyther approve the Church-constitution of England by the word of God or els confesse that it and the Iewish Churches are in this poynt nothing alike or if neyther of these that then Iesus Christ was a sinner Of whom the truth itself and work of our redemption testify that he knew no sinne at all but was like to vs in all things sinne excepted 2 Cor. 5.21 Heb. 4.15 7.26 This man then doth thus also both blaspheme the Sonne of God and make the holy Ghost a lyar But there were he saith tvvo high Priests at once vvhereas by the Lavv of God there should be but one 1. If it were so albeit thus they offended in the number yet still there was that office and function of Priesthood which God had ordeyned not a new one of mans devise as is the whole Hierarchy of England from the hyest Archbishop to the lowest Parish Priest And so there is no comparison between these two 2. This was the personall sinne of the men not the constitution of that Church neyther of the Offices wherein they were See it in another example Iudas an Apostle of Christ yet betrayeth him Doth it therefore follow that his office of Ministery wherein he was set by Christ himself was vnlawfull Nay that was the sinne of the Man not of the Office wherein he was What is this then to the question in hand when as the Ministery of England is charged to be straunge vnlawfull false in the very offices and functions thereof Yea and this man himself doth here by the whole course of his speach graunt as much 3. Is there any thing here said for the Priests and constitution of the Church of England which the most popish Priests Prelates Monks c. may not aswell alledge for theyrs Is theyr Ministery or constitution therefore such as man be ioyned withall 4. See how straungely these men forget and contradict themselves T. G. first Reply Pag. 83 84. Mr Cartwright writing against D. Whitgift saith If the vvhole practise of the Church vnder the Lavv be looked vpon it shall not be found that any other ecclesiasticall Ministery vvas appointed then those orders of hy Priests and Levites c. vvhich vvere appoynted by the Lavv of God And further that as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any straunge doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true do rine vnder the Name of any other function then vvas instituted by God Yet this man with an whores forehead shameth not to perswade that the offices and outvvard constitution of that Church vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Thus
were true Churches when they fell into those errors as were the Churches of Galatia when the errors about Circumcision and the Law crept in among them Or whether they were Hereticks Sectaryes or the like such as were Hymeneus Philetus Alexander the Apostates of Rome c. falling from the true faith and Churches of God when they came to be gathered and established as he fancyeth If they were of the former sort then they are to be estemed and admonished as true Churches till by despising the voyce of Christ the Kingdome of God be taken from among them Gal. 1.2 vvith 5.2.4 Mat. 21.33.43 1 Cor. 1.2 vvith 15.12 Rev 2. 3. chap. If of the latter then are they no true Churches at all but false and detestable Synagogues of Sathan whatsoever truth in constitution or otherwise they shall pretend Rev. 2.9 Act. 20.30 Col. 2.8.23 2 Thes 2.3.7 1 Tim. 1.19.20 6.20.21 and 2 Tim. 2.17.18 and 3.5.6.13 and. 4.14 Heb. 10.38.39 2 Pet. 2.1.2.3 In de ver 18.19 Rev. 13.11 17. 18 chap. 3. In a true constitution must alway be mynded a calling by the word of God a separation from the world a joyning together in the fellowship of the Gospell and that by a voluntary profession thereof and submission therevnto Now these things considered how is it posible that the Arrians Anabaptists or Papists retayning theyr errours should yet be gathered and established in a true outward constitution Can the light of truth have communion with the darkenes of falsehood Or can Christ in his constitution agree with Belial in the errours of Arians Anabaptists Papists c. 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 4. Finally if he will not heare our aunswer nor the Scriptures testimony let him yeâ— heare Mr Iewell a Prelate of theyr Church resolve his question in this maner * Ievvels Reply to Harding Pag 99 VVithout Christ the Church is no Church neyther hath any right or clayme vvithout his promise noâ— any promise vvithout his vvord Now this D. B. affirmeth himself that these of whom he speaketh are vvithout Christ For he sayth †Before in Sect. 3. theyr errors do of theyr ovvne nature cleane abolish from Christ Therefore by his owne assertion and Mr Iewels layd together they can be nâ—â—eue Church whatsoever faith or constitution they should pretend neyther have they anâ— right in such estate to his blessing Which yet is promised to them that are in the true waâ— and constitution of Christ Mat. 28.20 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Lev. 26.11.12 Thus then appeareth that he doth both ignorantly fever the doctrine wholy from the Churches constitution and that yet when they are considered apart as some tymes and â— some respects they may be each of them that is both the doctrine and constitution according as they are true or false avayle directly to the ouerthrowing or making of the Church to be likewise true or false so as hath ben declared before His crafty putting of faulty here for falâ— will nothing help him but bewrayeth his corrupt dealing the more Els let him shew in his next if he can whether ever there were true Church that stood in false constitution Neyther is the obiection of the Iewish constitution answered at all but remayneth of force against them still And that so much the more as the Churches of England remayne both in falâ— constitution and in false doctrine for both which they are vnder the wrath of God and all â—ound to separate from them And whosoever will not so do it remayneth a grievous sinne vpon theyr heads for which they must answer to God in that day when he will cast the Beast and false Prophet with all such as have ben seduced by them into vtter destruction to have their part in the lake which burneth with fyer and brimstone which is the second death 2 Thes â— 10.11.12 Rev. 14.9.10.11 17.1.2 19.20.21 21.8 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 7. Lastly concerning our corruptions As we cannot iustifie them to be no corruptioÌ„s but must needes acknowledge that there are many yet remaining in our land which vvere left by that man of sinne are as thornes vnto our sides vvhich vve hope God will in time abolish Iudg. 2.3 So dare vve not runne into your extremities to condempne our Churches for such corruptions but waight the appointed time of God for the redresse thereof Yet in the meane time so longe as those most excellent truthes and doctrines of salvation for which God make vs thankfull are still reteyned and held as soundly as by any Church vpon the face of the earth the other errors not simply ouerthrovving the same beeing not held of obstinacy and being also for the most part of great controversie and disputation among the learned So long I say communion in things lavvfull is to be kept with them as before is noted in the example of other Churches Othervvise it vvill come to passe by reason of the * * Mat. 25.13 10.23 dieuersitie in opinions and iudgementes vvhich by the corruption of our nature vve remaine in in this tabernacle as hath ‡ ‡ Lev. 4. Psal 19.12 bene in all ages and * * 1 Cor. 13.9 12. shal be so long as this life of imperfection indureth that no communion can euer bee had vvith any Church liuing no nor any one Christian vvith another Which to affirme vvere most absurd and vngodly These observations beeing considered I doubt not but the Lorde vvill adde a blessing to this vvorke That such as are simple hearted and have exceeded in eagernesse of zeale may see theyr extremitie in so rashly and vnadvisedly separating from and condempning the Churches of England sometymes theyr Nurses and Mothers as before is noted Whereby God may have the glory themselves the comforte euen the salvation of theyr soules through Christ D. B. The Aunswer Now at length D. B. yeeldeth the cause himself So great is the truth and so greatly it prevayleth against every oppugner thereof To omit that he confesseth they cannot justify theyr corruptions and yet they can abide in them he sayth also they must needs acknovvledge that they have many corruptions remayning vvich vvere left by that man of sinne vvhich are as thornes vnto theyr sides Blessed be God which maketh the enemyes themselues bring glory and testimony to his truth They are so convinced as he sayth plainely they must needs acknovvledge it Now therefore let him name them in his next or confesse those to be of them which I have noted hereafter Pag. 63. c. Till then I will onely inferre this herevppon that seing they are such as himself here graunteth them to be viz corruptions of the Man of sinne and thornes to theyr sides even therefore are all bound to separate from them as being condenmed by the word of God For hath not the Lord commaunded all his people wholy to leave the Man of sinne with all his corruptions not to partake in any of his
sinnes not to rest in any of his vnrighteousnes neyther to towch any vncleane thing at all 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4.5.6 Isa 52.11 2 Cor. 6.17 Yea in that very * Iudg. 2.3 Scripture which is here quoted by himself the Angel of the Lord joyneth with thorne to their sides destruction by there Gods that is by their worship and religion But they hope God vvill in tyme abolish them And so do we have too Yet we must remember that the Scripture sayth this abolition of them shal be by the Spirit of the Lords mouth a I 〈◊〉 of his Gospell in the testimony of his servants 2 Thes 2 8. Rev. 12.11 14.6.7.8.12 It is not then the yeelding vnto them but the witnessing against them by which we can hope it faith for the abolishment of them Neyther do we doubt but they being thus discovered God will also stirre vp the hearts of Kings and Rulers of the earth as already in part he hath begun to hate that whore of Babylon with her abominations and to make her desolate and naked Rev 17 16. Yet too before they come to do this they have given theyr power and authority to the Beast aÌ„d have also fought but not prevayled against the Lambe Iesus Christ and them that are on his side his called and chosen and faithfull witnesses Rev. 17.13.14 Therefore dare not we runne into theyr extremityes to allow eyther by word or deed the corruptions of Antichrist that Man of sinne to receyve in our forehead or hand the print of his Nauie or marke of his ordinances to pursue to death the witnesses of Christ or any way to approve thereof c. But we wayte the appoynted tyme of the Lord for the full abolition and redresse of all these impietyes And in the meanetyme through the grace of Christ we witnes against them Yet being both thankfull to God for any truth they hold and sory also that with it they joyne the abominations of the Man of sinne and do so set a wall between the Lord and themselues 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 17.5 Ezech. 43.8 Where he sayth they hold most excellent truths and doctrines of salvation as soundly as any Church vpoÌ„ the face of the earth albeit by this it might seem they have very yll neighbours and for so large comparison due proof also may well be desired yet for the present I will but aske how this speach of his agreeth with the testimony of others among them men of far riper iudgement and better discerning who have testifyed of theyr estate and published that * DemoÌ„stration in the Preface to the Reader Albeit many nations vvhich have renounced the vvhore of Rome are heynously sinfull against the glorious Maiesty of Iesus Christ yet there is none in the vvorld so far out of square as is England in retayning the Popish Hierarchy first coyned in the mystery of iniquity and that filthy sinke of the Canon Lavv vvhich vvas first invented and patched together for the confirmation and increasing of the Kingdome of Antichrist Also that with them “ Mr Gilbyes book Pa. 29 many religions are mixed together off Christ and Antichrist of God and the Divell That †Letter to Mr Hooker Pag. 4 vnder the shevv of inveighing against Puritanes the chiefest poynts of Popish blasphemy are many tymes and in many places by divers meâ— not obscurely broached both in Sermons and in VVriting That ♣ 2 Ad non to Parliam Pag 6. although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout great daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth coÌ„prised in the book of God * Ibid. That theyr ovvne Iniunctions Articles Canons c. may not be broken or offended against but vvith more danger then to offend against the Bible That ‡ Ibid. the Bible must haue no further scope then by these it is assigned That * Demonstr in the Prefa to the Gover they give leave to a man to be any thing sauing a sound Christian That †Admon to Parliam Pag 21. theyr publik Baptisme is fâ—ll of childish and superstitious toyes That “ Mr Gibâ—yes book Pag. 2. they eat not the Lords supper but play a pageant of theyr ovvne to blynd the people and keep them still in superstition to make the silly soules beleev that they have an English Masse and so put no difference betvvixt truth and falsehood betvvixt Christ and Antichrist betvvixt God and the Divell Thus do the best of them professe and testify of theyr estate Shall we then think as D.B. would perswade that there is not any Church vpon the face of the earth vvhich doth more soundly retayne the truth and doctrine of saluation God forbid Or doth he meane as Mr Hooker a rare conceyted man of the Prelates crew speaketh of the Church of Rome ♣ Hookers Ecclesiast Policy Book 3. Pag. 130. that it doth still constantly persist in mayne parts of the Christian truth and is of the family of Iesus Christ Yea * Ibid. Book 5. Pag. 188. that it is doe vnto her to be held and reputed a part of the house of God and a limme of the visible Church of Christ If such be D. B. his meaning here for theyr Church yet this doth but verify the Proverbe which sayth As is the Mother so is the daughter Ezech. 16.44 But no matter so long as he can with an hard forehead pretend that theyr errors do not simply ouerthrovv the truth neyther are held of obstinacy but are also for the most part off great controversy and disputation among the learned Yet marke that he saith for the most part Of them all belike he will not speak it Or if he should might he not likewise plead for the holding or intertayning agayne of Auricular Confession Seven Sacraments Setting vp off candels Reservation of the Sacrament Denying of the Cup to the common people Images in Temples for ornament or remembrance Monks Fryers Nunnes c. Or will not the Lutherans when they are driven to a straite thus alledge for themselves Yea doth not * P. Maâ—t Loc. com Epist ad Pereg Lond. Pag. 1128. c 〈◊〉 against whom Peter Martyr did therefore write very sharpely thus plead for the very Anabaptists And will not Hooker think you pretend as much for his Romish Bethal Or doth he it not in deed when he sayth even of Transubstantiation ‡ Hoâ—k Ecclesiast pol. book 5. Pag. 1â—6 that it is a thing vvhich no vvay can eyther further or hinder vs hovvsoever it stand And “ Ibid. Pag. 186. that the very thing vvhich separateth vtterly and cutâ—eth of cleane from the visible Curch of Christ is playne apostasy direct deny all vtter rejection of the VVHOLE ChristiaÌ„ faith as far as the Sonne is professedly different from infidelity Now compare with this also Mr Iacobs Replyes following Pag. 57. 101. 105. 109. 141. 156. 192. And see if theyr plea for the
Church of England be not off the the very same stampe with Mr Hookers for the Church of Rome Thus what by the Prelates and theyr Proctors on the one hand and these Pharisaicall dawbing Reformists on the other theyr case is come to be such as all may iustly feare least the end of that Church will be to look back not onely in part but euen wholy to the Romish Egypt and Sodom and to wallow agayne in the same myer from which they would seem aâ— this tyme to hâ—â—â—e â—en washed For it is just with God to make such eate the fruit of there owne way and to fill them with theyr owne devises Prov. 1.31 And what other thing do the books pretences practise and declining of all sorts both Ministers and people among them â—â—rtend Yet Lord thou God of power and Father of mercy work better things for them and among them if it be thy will To that which D. B. pretendeth next of keping communion vvith them in things lavvfull it being likewise objected by Mr Iacob I haue answered in the Treatise ensuing Pag. 88. 170. 171. 180. Here onely I aske First what one lawfull thing they have that we have not Secondly in what one thing which he counteth lawfull we can have communion with them in that estate and not sinne against God by partaking withall in the apostasy of the man of sinne Of all other things it is most like he will say that we might heare many comfortable truths taught by theyr Preachers and many good prayers conceyved by them Yet such is their case as we can not do this neyther but we must needs partake with the Ministery of Antichrist all theyr Preachers even the best being Priests and Deacons so made by the Prelates Of which see more in the latter Treatise following Pag. 188. c. Not to speak here any further of it or of theyr Book-worship taken out of the Popes Masse-book according to which they administer the Sacraments marry bury pray c. or of the compulsion of all maner people even the most wicked to be members of theyr Church or of theyr Church discipline being in the hands of the Prelates and by the Canon Law or finally of the severall offices entrance ministration maintenance of theyr whole Hierarchy To none of which can any joyne or submit in any part of Gods worship but they must needs partake in evill even in the sinnes of Babylon and of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Such is their constitution and such is the standing of all that continew therein Of his last pretence tovvching diversity of judgement by reason whereof he would perswade to keep communion with them I have spoken * In the Ansvver to Section 3. here a litle before To which now I will adde this onely that his collection herevpon viz. that we should therefore keep communion with the Ministery and confusion of Antichrist for of what els speaketh he if he speak to the poynt in question is most absurd and vngodly And will not Hooker think you for his Christian Papists and some such as Hadrianus for the Anabaptists perswade likewise And what then are we the nearer Or what will these men do in the end hereof Ier. 5.31 This then is not rightly to vse that diversity of judgement wherevnto in many things all Churches and Christians in deed are continually subiect here on earth but ignorantly to abuse it But herevnto it may be ‡ Da. Buck. this man was driven eyther by weaknes of iudgement in himself or by eagernes of contention and malice agaynst vs of whome he hath sometymes ben but now for his revolting from the truth and so persisting is according to the * 1 Cor. 5.4.5.11.12.13 1 Tim. 1.19.20 Mat. 18.17.18.20 Scriptures and ordinance of Christ cast out from among vs and delivered vnto Sathan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Which mercy the Lord Almighty vouchsafe him in Christ from whom he hath declined vnto Antichrist And this is all the harme I wish vnto him or any such even theyr repentance and salvation in Christ Iesus Hitherto of the Preface prefired to Mr Iacobs book Which I have answered somewhat largely from poynt to poynt rather for the satisfying of others then for any waight I judged to be in it my self Now it is tyme that I returne to Mr Iacob himself and deale with him in particular by whom I am spoken vnto and challenged by Name almost in every page of his book As if he had forgotten the old Proverbe which sayth Let not him boast himself that girdeth his harness as he that putteth it off Here then seing that this discourse came first from him to the view of the world and that also without my aunswer to his last Reply let the Reader call to mynd that which is written He that is first in his ovvne cause is iust then cometh his neighbour and maketh inquiry of him Prov. 18.17 So as he now having told his owne tale first and seming to some no doubt to be iust therein it is nedefull that I therefore come in the next place and make inquiry of him Which I do in the Treatise following submitting it now to the judgement of others to be examined of all by the word of God 1 Cor. 2 12-16 1 Thes 5.21 By it therefore do thou ChristiaÌ„ Reader try all things therein and keep that which is good Have no prejudice I pray thee eyther of Mr Iacob or my self but heare vs both speak and then consider what is spoken on eyther side from poynt to poynt And the Lord give thee vnderstanding in all things There is but one way of truth to life eternall And that is in no other but the Lord Iesus Christ Ioh. 14.6 who hath said I am the vvay the truth and the life If therefore the Churches of England as now they stand be in that good and old way prescribed by Christ wherein the Primitiue Churches were planted by the Apostles then doubtles then are in the way of truth that leadeth vnto life Yet this hath not Mr Iacob shewed in all his discourse Ier. 6.16 But now on the contrary if the Churches of England in theyr estate have in the Ioynes off the Church of Rome and with it departed from that auncyent and good way of Christ and do even vnto this day stand in the apostasy of Antichrist and that in theyr publik Ministery worship ordinances confusion of people c. then can they not so standing be assured by the word of God that they are in the way of truth which leadeth vnto life but in the by-wayes of errour which cary headlong to death and perdition 2 Thes 2.3.10.12 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Rev. 13.11 17.1.2 22.18.19 vvith Exod 20.4.5 For which cause all the people of God are bound to separate from them and not to partake in any of theyr sinnes least they receyve also of
His 1. Reply to the 7. Reason folloing The Papists forbidding of mariage and meats if they had done no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such These and many mo you haue in your first Reply besides an hundred the like in the second not only sounding to that sence but directly and necessarily implying it And whereas you have sometimes the contrary as I noted * His 1. Reply to the 4 Reason follovving els where that doth but so much the more shew your inconstancy and contradiction of your self Shall I therefore now turne vpon you your owne words and say O strange dealing vvithout all shame in the vievv of the vvorld to father on me this foule vntruth c. Yet I am glad M. Iacob the truth prevaileth so much with you nill ye will ye as you are driuen to confesse that this assertion is a foule vntruth and senceles errour For herevpon it followeth first that your Proposition is not generall and therefore your whole Argument faulty and to no purpose at al for the question in hand secondly that of necessity there should be some clause ānexed to your Proposition touching the Antichristian abhominations among you if you would haue your Reason good for the estate of your Churches But you account such addition would be idle and vaine I easily beleeue you are so minded But why I pray you thinke you so Is it because you did not at first mind it or because now you see it would discouer to euerie man the vanitie of your Reason Howsoeuer it must be expressed And if your self either know not how to doe it or be vnwilling I will show it Mark now therfore Hovv Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist But the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly * Book of Articles published Anno 1562 professed and practised by Lavv in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluatiō And the publik Assemblyes of England are in their estate companyes so gathered together Therefore it is also sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist Or thus rather If the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Lavv in England be sufficient to make a particular man standing member of that Church which retaineth the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist yet notvvithstanding to be a true Christian and in state of saluation as tovvching his estate and standing in that Church then is it also sufficient to make a company so gathered together and consequently the Church of England to be a true Church of Christ as towching the estate and constitution thereof But the former say you is true Therefore also the latter But the former say I is false Therefore also the latter Thus M. Iacob should your Argument be framed in right forme of reasoning for the estate of your Church and for the question between vs. Which now being done who is so simple as cannot plainely see the falshood of both the Propositions in the former and of the Assumption in the latter and consequently the vanity of your Reason every way If you still hold otherwise then must we still call vpon you for proof Bare saying will not serue we looke for due proof Mind further that now as your case standeth you are to approve the estate of your Church and the members thereof not only as they retaine the abominatiōs of Antichrist but as they withstand also the contrary truth and way of Christ which hath ben a long time made known and offered vnto them Otherwise he that hath but half an eye may see you defēd not the present estate of the Churches of England as the title of your book pretendeth In that you say wheresoeuer there are any things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient in deed is not sufficient to make a true Christian you are againe mistaken There may be in the constitution of a Church things added destroying faith and yet so much truth be held and taught as to some particular men cōsidered apart from the constitution is sufficient to make them true Christians and in state of saluation the other being not imputed vnto them by the Lord. Thus I doubt not hath * Thus haue I spoken to you Mr Iacob many tymes Yet see hovv you haue novv dealt vvith me contrary to your knovvledg God saued some in the most popish Churches and many mo in yours from time to time Yet notwithstanding this doth not iustifie the estate either of their or of your Church neither doth it warrant any to abide therein But it argueth partly the riches of Gods mercie partlie the greatnes of his power who as at first he brought light out of darknes so in the worst times and euen in the darke kingdome of Antichrist saueth them that are his But of this besides that already spoken there will be occasion to speak more ‡ In the handling of the second Exception and 7. Reason folloing hereafter Your bad dealing about the first rest of the general points aboue named I haue declared before In deed your self may tremble to think thereon as on your Antichristian estate also in that Church You I say M. Iacob who cannot be ignorant of both these things howsoever you haue advisedly if not also vvilfully now written otherwise Mind therefore if you haue not here took heauen and earth to record against your self and whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs proceed to your Replies vpon the Exceptions and Reasons heretofore alledged against your Assumption And let the Reader mind without partialitie as before God which of vs haue the truth and accordingly let him walke in all good conscience before God and men Chap. 4. The first Exception against the Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson FIrst consider the 19. Article of that doctrine and Book which by your self is alleadged for your defence and see by it if your profession and practize be not contrary one to an other Yea see if it be not manifest euen by it that you haue not a true visible Church of Christ The words of the Article are these Artic. 19. The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure vvord of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same These are your owne words and
Devills Doth your Church hold them as things indifferent Or will not this prove a blasphemous opinion even in your owne judgement 4. Mynd withall how the Dispensations given by your Prelates for eating of flesh in tymes forbidden runne stil among you as they did and do among the Papists with this clause fana conscientia that is with a safe conscience and your Excommunications with this clause Ad salutem anioâ—e that is for the salvation of the soule Doth not this shew that your Churches hold not these things as you pretend but agree with the Papists therein Or hold you matters of conscience and salvation for things indifferent 5. Likewise for your Ministery and book of common prayer c. hold you them as matters indifferent or as necessarie for the service of God and salvation of your soules 6. And what say you to the blasphemy magik errors lyes in the Apocrypha books retained among you for the service of God Count you them also for indifferent things 6. Finally towching the Popish opinion of works whereof you speak know you not how they hold that their works merit not for the work sake but for Christs being dyed with his blood Yet notwithstanding this colour the point being well considered it doth highly dishonour Christ and derogate from his office of sole Mediation In like maner the Hierarchy c. that is the governement worship confusion and Ministery of Antichrist retained among you whatsoever you pretend for them yet being duly weighed do as towching your Church constitutioÌ„ abolish the governement and MediatioÌ„ of Christ except you could prove him to be Mediatour of another Testament then his owne Behold what your Indifferent opinioÌ„ will prove when it comes to be throughly scanned As you like it you may hold it still To end this point let the Reader note and not forget it how your self do here in playne termes confesse that your Hierarchy that is your Churches governement Ministery c. was never but nought This suites yll with the title of your book and gives small encouragement for any to serve God by such Ministery worship c. For Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Pag. 40.41 I have cleared them before froÌ„ your hasty censure Now onely let the Reader observed how this is alway the foot of your song Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. As if their errors were better warrant for you then Gods word for vs. CHAP. 10. The fourth Reason against M. Iacobs AssumptioÌ„ aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THe doctrines of faith conteined in that Book alledged would not make him a true Christian who holding them should also still execute or joyne vnto the Ministery of Mahomet that open Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Therefore neither can they make him a true Christian that holding them yet doth still execute or joine vnto the Ministery and worship of the man of sinne the covert Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 4. Reason THis your 4. ReasoÌ„ is Mahomets Ministery and Antichrists Ministery are both bad alike But the good doctrines of our booke of Articles cannot save a man that ioineth also to Mahomets Ministery Ergo the good doctrines of that booke cannot save a man that ioineth also to Antichrists Ministery which thing we in England doe I deny neither the Proposition nor Assumption And yet the Argument is too bad It is a fallacie of Equivocation as we call it Wee must therefore distinguish Mahomets Ministerie and Antichrists Ministerie have a doubtfull meaning If you meane the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in Mahomets or Antichrists assemblies that is in the Turkish or Popish Churches Then I graunt your whole Argument is * Both are nought alike as touching abolâ—shing vs from Christ. true But that wee doe so in England which comes in the CoÌ„clusioÌ„ Or that any ChristiaÌ„ amongst vs thinketh so That I vtterly deny And thus indeed that Scripture alleadged 2 Cor. 6.14 is rightly vnderstood But if you meane by Ministerie the outward manner of calling to the Ministerie and some outward ceremonies vsed by Mahomet or the Pope Then I flatly and absolutly deny your Assumption and your Scripture is answered before in the First Reason For I affirme and it is manifest That such errors being ioined with the good doctrines of that our Book doe not destroy faith and true Christianitie as before was shewed in the Second Exception Fr. Iohnson his Answer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 4. Reason Here Mr Iacob the light of the trueth doeth so dazell your eyes as you freely confesse you cannot deny any whit of the Reason And yet forsooth the Argument is too bad But why so There is you say an Equivocation in it and therefore you will distinguish I answer There is no equivocation at all in the words they are all plaine to him that hath a single eye and will vnderstand the trueth Therefore your distinction here is idle and frivolous Yet let vs see between what things you do distinguish It is between the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies and between the outward maner of calling to their Ministery and the outward ceremonies vsed amongest them An absurd distinction towching the matter in hand For first who knoweth not that these latter are of the very same nature with the former Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Antichristian and accursed before God aswell as the rest of their woship and service Or hath God in his worde giuen any commaundement more for these then for the other Secondly who seeth not that the Argument here is not of whatsoever thing vsed among the Turkes and Papists but of the Ministerie and worship which they have devised and executed As in particular of the publique offices of Ministery reteined among them of their maner of calling and entrance into them of their administration of them of their stinted imposed Liturgie their ecclesiasticall governement Canons proceedings c. All which in the Church of England are taken out of * Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3.4.7.8.9.10.11.12 that golden cup of abominations wherewith Antichrist that man of sinne hath made the Nations of the earth to be drunken As may appeare by comparing their Pontificals Canons and constitutions togeather If you will needes be otherwise minded then prove the particulars aforesaide by the Testament of Christ And marke here that you graunt the doctrine of faith conteined in your booke of Articles cannot make him a true Christian who holding them doth withall receive and ioyne vnto the publike worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies This you say you graunt as most true WherevpoÌ„ it followeth even by your owne confession 1. That such things may be ioined with the doctrines of faith receiued among you as in such estate you cannot be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither the truths which you
the Papists might thus plead as you do And that so much the more as they bring more show of Scripture Pag. 129. then you More show I say as before I noted For otherwise I know both they and you pervert the Scriptures to mainteine your errors I wish it be not to your destruction Consider these things Mr Iacob and returne a sounder aunswer or els learne to lay your hand on your mouth To that which you vrge next concerning my self I have aunswered alreadie Pag. 41. But that which I vrged next to you viz your forsaking the true ministery Pag. 108. worship and order appointed by Christ as the Israelites also did and your retayning a false Ministery vvorship and confusion of Antichrist c. This you passe by and aunswer not a word vnto it Then where I alledged that you vvere not behind but rather exceeded the Israelites in persecuting vnto bands banishment and death such as beare vvitnes to the truth of Christ c. To this you aunswer It is a toy Thus first you make ‡ a mocke of sinne and so carry your self as if you had ben Chapleine to Boner Bancroft Gardiner Whitgift or some such Caiphas Pro. 14.9 By this also you testifie that not onelie the Prelates and Formalists as some would beare vs in hand but even the Reformists among whom you reckon your self have your hands in our blood consenting vnto and approving that which is done against vs. Further you do thus become like the Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites vpoÌ„ whom Christ pronounced a most heavy Wo Mat. 23 29-35 for that whiles they builded the tombes of the Prophets slaine by their Fathers themselves did kill and persecute the witnesses of Christ sent vnto them And yet they blessed themselues in their evill even as you do Behold to what height of impiety you are come and in how fearfull estate you remaine But yet you comfort your selves with two things 1. that this can not make you worse then the Iewes in Christs tyme who for all that they persecuted yet were not wholy fallen from God O most wofull estate Though yet your case be worse then theirs inasmuch as their Church was in a true constitution yours in a false Mat. 21 â—3 c. Act. 2. 13. 17. chap. 19.8.9 And therefore they to be admonished which was done by Christ and his Apostles afore anie were required to separate and save themselves from that froward generation Whereas the rule and commaundement concerning your and all false Churches is forthwith to go out froÌ„ such and to witnes the truth against them Rev. 18.4.5.6 12.17 14.12 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Phil. 1.28.29 Hos 4.15 Amos. 5.5.6 Micah 2.10 And thus far your estate is worse then theirs so as both other account is to be made of it and other maner of walking to be vsed toward it But suppose you were both alike in this yet most miserable is your case when for your persecution you are driven to plead the example of the Iewes 1 Thes 2.15.16 Mat. 23.33.34.35 †who both killed the Lord Iesus and their owne Prophets and did by persecution drive away the Church and Apostles of Christ and brought vpon themselves all the righteous bloodshed vpoÌ„ the earth froÌ„ the beginning of the world and had the kingdome of God taken from them neither could escape the damnation of hell wrath being come vpon them to the vtmost as both Christ and his Apostles testifyed against them How wofull then and miserable is your case though it be no vvorse then theirs 2. The second thing is that you say we suffer more then we need if we would but acknowledge the grace of God with you so far as it is that therefore it is not Christs crosse in that regard but our owne that we beare 1. But what if the Iewes or Papists did or should say thus much vnto them they persecuted Were it of anie moment Nay did not Boner and other of the Papists often so speak to the Martyrs 2. What think you also of the suffrings of Mr Vdall Mr Cartvvright Mr Fenner Mr Dearing Mr Merbury c. Did they suffer more then they needed Or diâ— they not acknowledge the grace of God with you so far as it is Or was it not Christs crosse but their owne that they bare 3. Tell vs next what grace of God is with you which we acknowledge not so far as it is Hold you anie truth of doctrine which we hold not Or reject you anie errors which we reject not Approve you anie way of righteousnes which we approve not Or refuse you anie evill which we refuse not If thus we do not convince vs by the Scripture †2 Tim. 3.16.17 which is profitable to these vses that the man of God may be absolute being fully furnished to everie good work But if we do thus as by the grace of God we do then your speach against vs is vntrue and your persecution of vs vnjust 4. Shew withall in what particulars we suffer more then we need 5. And prove that the things we suffer for are not good but evill Being carefull alwaie that your proofs be from the word of God which onelie is the rule of truth 6. Finallie we testify in all good conscience before God and men that we suffer onelie for bearing witnes to the truth of Christ against the abominations of Antithrist And this the Confession of our faith alreadie published in English Dutch and Latin doth and will testifie to the ages present and to come As also our other writings Examinations Aunswers Conferences c. For which you have alreadie condemned and put to death divers of vs and others you have imprisonned impoverished banished c. It is then Christ his crosse which we beare through his grace And you are become fighters against God and persecuters of Christ in his members Yea even this writing of yours proclaimeth that you are now alreadie become drunken with the blood of the Saints and with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus Els could you never have pleaded so wickedlie nor blessed your selves so foolishlie as you do But we will leave you and our cause vnto God who judgeth righteous judgement and will give every man according to his works When he maketh inquisitioÌ„ for blood he will remember all that you have done vnto vs and will not forget the complaint of the poore Therefore will wee wayte on him and say no more but with Zechariah when he was put to death ‡ 2 Chron. 24.22 The Lord look vpon it and requier it In the last place you vrge againe that there is contrariety betvveen my speach here and in the second Reason before 1 But I pray you tell me Saith not the Scripture both the things that are spoken in these two places Read we not for the one that Christ accounted the Iewes not the Samaritans the true worshippers of God Ioh 4.22 c.
seem to have erred in so mayne a poinct vve cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driven them to it Neverthelesse all this vve leave to the Lord vvith the iudgement thereof vvho hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the secrets but also to turne and dispose them even as it pleaseth him Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 9. Reason TO this Reason you answer It is a fallacy Separate from such Ergo separate vvholy But how shew you any fallacy therein You bid vs see your Replyes to the third Exception and tvvo last Reasons of all Well we have seen them and finde nothing there but against your self as hath ben shewed So this Reason and the rest stand still vnanswered and strong against you And that we may not doubt but your self also see it howsoever you seem to plead the contrary before therefore now you graunt it and so yeeld the cause both in expresse words and by not defending the points of false doctrine wherewith you were charged neyther your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. In expresse words when you say you graunt that so farr foorth as you hold othervvise then trueth so far vve may and ought to separate from you Loe here what the evidence of the truth against which you have strugled so long hath now at length drawen from you The trueth is mighty and prevaileth But you adde that vve must not separate from you any further then as before not wholy or absolutly and so say you the Apostle “ here meaneth 1 Tim. 6.3 ◠First of all let vs know what your self meane hereby If you meane that we must not for your other defection forsake the trueths which you hold I aunswer that we doe it not and this your self know well ynough And in this sence your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles You say your selves you have separated from the Papists yet you neither can nor will say that you have forsaken the truthes which the Papists hold As that there is a God that there be three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Saviour of the world that God made heaven and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust c. But if you meane that because of the truthes which you professe therefore we should not separate from you then first you contradict your self having graunted that we must separate from you so farr foorth as you hold otherwise then trueth Secondlie you condemne your owne practise in your separation from the Papists notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdlie in this sence also your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore is evident both that there is no fallacy in the Reason but that it is playne and forceable against you And that you have directlie in expresse words given vs the cause See the particulars before Pag. 63 c. and acknowledged our separation to be lawfull from your * Ministery worship Assemblies c. because in these you hold otherwise then truth And as in expresse words you yeeld it so in deed you shew it in that you leave without all defēce as vnlawfull and to be separated from your Ministery worship Church-governement Doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularlie in the First and Second Reasons before which thing we wish the Reader well to observe And because we are fallen againe into mention of your false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of your dealing and insufficiencie of all your answers therefore it shall not be yrkesome to set downe here some such poincts of false doctrine as heretofore have ben obiected against you They are as followeth 1. That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacraments yet neyther the Sacramentes False doctrine in the Church of England and in the defenders thereof nor the people that ioine with them are defiled therby Which doctrine is contrary to the trueth of God in these Scriptures 1 Cor. 10.17 Hag. 2.14.15 1 Cor. 5.6 10.28 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18.19 Exod. 12.43 Levit. 15.4.5.6.7.31 11.24 13.45.46 19.7 Num. 5.2.3 19.21.22 Iosua 7.11.12 c. Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2. That the planting or reforming of Christs Church must tarrie for the Civill Magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word and spirit of God in the testimony of his servantes except they have authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat. 28.18.20 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1.27 Psal 2.6.9.10.12 Esa 9.6.7 Zach. 4.6 6.12.13 Dan. 2.44 7.27 9.25 Mich. 5.7 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6.12 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Rev. 1.5 12.11 14.12 17.14 19.16 20.4 3. That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated company of righteous men and women from the Idolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good and bad Which doctrine is cōtrary to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 vvith 6.2 Exod. 4.22.23 Levit. 10.10 20.24.25.26 Psal 24.3.4 Ezra 6.21 2. Chron. 11.13.16 Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10.12 Act. 2.40.41.42 19.9 Rom. 12.1.8 2 Cor. 6.17.18 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 14.9.12 18.4 21.27 and 22.14.15 c. 4. To mainteine this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they pervert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church and that they may be retained and communicated withall in the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Saviours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant the world in which his Church is militant here on earth And as therein there is the good seed the righteous the Children of the Kingdome so there are also tares hypocrites the children of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous servauntes of God and being discovered are here cast out of the Church in the Name and by the power of Iesus Christ so shall they in that great day be perfectlie severed from the godly by the Angels howsoever here in the meane tyme making profession of the truth and having a show of godlines they be suffred to grow together with the good seed and be with the vpright of heart reputed mēbers of the Church on earth Note also that the Church because it is the Temple House kingdome of God on earth wherein he dwelleth by his spirit and ruleth by the scepter of his word as also the gate of heaven through which he bringeth vs into his kingdome of glory after this life is therefore by Christ in this place called the Kingdome of heaven though yet it
constitution of your Church aswell as the other if not also more They are publiklie authorised among you aswell as the other whether you respect the Prelates and Clergy in the Conuocation house or the whole body of the Land in the Parliament They are generallie receyved professed and practised of all the people in every Parish and Cathedrall Church throughout the Land aswell as the other Yea and more too your selves being witnesses One of your owne Prophets Mr Giff. Di. of the strife of the Church Pag. 100. writing of your estate saith There be thousands which be men and women growen that if a man aske them how they shall be saved they cannot tell Neither can your felf deny this to be true How do they then know and professe the faith of your book of Articles Or will you say they are as ignorant of your Service-book and of your Prelates other Articles Iniunctions Courts c. vnto which they ioyne and submit dayly Either therefore you must meddle with the false doctrines and other publik books of your Church aswell as with that book of Articles whereof you speak or els you meddle not at all with the question between vs neither defend your Churches estate The question between vs is Whether the truths you professe together with the false doctrines and abominations of Antichrist retained among you do make you true Churches and I true Christiās in that estate If you keep not to this point you may make as faire a plea for the Church of Rome and all other Hereticks whilest you meddle not with their errors and false doctrines but looke onely at the truths they professe Mynd but the Papists profession concerning Christ and his full and sufficient satisfaction for all our sinnes whereof I spake before Pag. 47. And consider now with your self how well and soundlie you have defended your Churches estate How your doctrine and constitution erreth fundamentally I have declared before Pag. 22. 114. 147. But now though you have no list to meddle with your Churches doctrine yet let vs see in your next Reply if your list will be to deale with your owne Your owne I say which I had from your self and take to be private to your self I had it from you in a Conference which passed “ between you and me April 3. 1597 in the presence of divers that can witnesse it Yet for more certainty and better remembrance I desired and obteined of you to write it downe your self So you gave it me then vnder your hand in writing which I have with me yet to shew Thus it is word for word A power borrowed from Antichrist to excommunicate may externally be committed vnto a people vsed by them who have power to excommunitate from Christ Henry Iacob When you had thus set it downe I desired your proof of it from the Scriptures But none could be had I could not obteine that at your hands Therevpon I tooke the paper and wrote vnderneath your assertion thus This is against the Scriptures 1 Cor. 5.4.5 compared with 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 Ezech. 43.8 Mat. 18.17.18.19.20 1 King 18.21 Fran Iohnson It is a good while Mr Iacob synce this passed between vs and like that you have had leysure ynough to consider of it all this tyme. Therefore in your next I hope you will have some list to meddle with this doctrine of your owne though you have none at all for your Churches Yet for the doctrines of your Church also because I am fallen into the mention of them againe let me put you in mynd of two things mo Mat. 13.24 c. The first is towching the parable of the tares spoken of before Pa. 158. of which because it is straungelie and daylie perverted among you for the maintenance of your confused and wicked estate therefore will I here in particular adde a word or two more besides that which I annexed before for the further explication of this point and conuiction of your error As first that you do consider with your selves if with this parable agree not also the Apostles doctrine where he calleth the Church the house of God and saith that in this house are not onelie vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and earth and that as some of them be for honor so some be also to dishonor from which therefore if anie purge himself he shal be a vessel vnto honor sanctifyed and meet for the Lord and prepared to every good work 1 Tim 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2.16.17.18.19.20.21 3.5 Next that howsoever the parable be vnderstood by anie whether of 1 the generall estate of the Church from the beginning of the world to the end thereof how Sathan alway hath his tares his wicked ones sometymes more open sometymes more secret even as God alway hath his righteous children and servants vntill the day of that finall and everlasting separacion Mat. 13.35.40 2 Or the particular estate of the Church in the tyme of Antichrists apostasy wrought by Sathan vntill the discovery and full abolition thereof 2 Thes 2 3.-14 3 Or the Churches continuall being and cōversing in the world with the children of the wicked Which they must needs do or els they must go out of the world as the Apostle affirmeth 1 Cor. 5.9.10 Howsoever I say the parable be vnderstood whether of these or any the like yet doth it no way make for the receiving or reteining of the knowen wicked whosoever they be in the body of the Church The scope of the parable by these interpretations also leading to no such thing but onelie to comfort and instruct the godlie how to carry themselves with patience and wisdome in such estate of things in the world And the Apostle whose doctrine doubtles is not contrarie to Christs teacheth expressely in that place to the Corinthians and the other mentioned before both that the Church is a distinct body separated from the world not partaking in their evill wayes and that if anie of the Church will not so walk but commit iniquity and repent not that then they be so far from being suffred to grow or remaine any longer in the Church as they be forthwith cast out of it and delivered vnto Sathan the Prince of the world and children of disobedience even the Enemy that soweth the tares here spoken of And thus also was the Apostles practise For both which that is both his doctrine and practise herein see these Scriptures 1 Cor. 5. chap. 2 Cor. 2 6-11 6 14.-17 Act. 19.9 Ro. 16.17 Ephes 2.1.2 Gal. 5.12 2 Thes 3.6.14 1 Tim. 1.20 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2 16-21 3.5 4.14.15 Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.38.39 To conclude then albeit that such having crept into the Church do both before and after their excommunication as do also the other of the world who never received the faith offend and trouble the Church and children of the kingdome yea and do often flourish also in outward
into prison and so deteined vnto death or otherwise evill intreated as both your prisons and so me yet alive are able to testify Synce which tyme your persecution hath increased far more even vnto exile and death vpon such as refuse to joine to your Hierarchy worship and other abominations of Antichrist by your Law then established How absurd then is it to pretend for your estate the reformations of Hezekiah Manasseh Iosiah c. Of which the Scripture testifyes that God gave the people one heart to do the cōmaundement of the King and of the Rulers according to the word of the Lord. 2 Chron. 30.12 And who knoweth not that these Kings did both abolish the false worship and Ministery which before tyme had ben in their Kingdomes and did in stead thereof establish that true worship and Ministery which God by Moses had ordeined 2 King 18.6 23.25 2 Chron. 29. 30. 31. 33. 34. 35. chap. Besides that those Churches consisted of people separated frō the world and willinglie submitting thēselves to the Lord as these Scriptures also do testify 2 Chron. 15.8.9.12 30.11.12 2 King 23.2.3 with Exod. 19 5-8 Lev. 20.24.26 Howsoever then being set in the way of God and walking therein they had their blemishes and imperfections yea and evill men arising among them as the best Churches on earth are alway subiect to have yet this is nothing eyther for such cōmaundemēt of Rulers as is not according to the word of God or for your Churches estate which from the beginning to this day neyther are separated from the world nor have the true Ministery and worship appointed by Christ but stand both in confusion with the most prophane and in subiection to the Hierarchy and worship of the man of sinne Otherwise the ten Tribes of Israell might justify their defection and the Romish Babylon her filthyest apostasy by such pretences For your people at the beginning of her Majestyes raigne you alledge 1. that they did not all generally want all knowledge and all faith I do willinglie graunt it But doth it therefore follow that your Assemblyes are true Churches rightlie gathered according to the ordinance of Christ Then by the same reason conclude the publik Assemblyes heretofore in Q. Maryes tyme and now in Rome and the rest of Italy Spayne Fraunce c. to be true Churches right lie gathered because their people neyther did nor do all generally want all knowledge and all faith But your people had then had in many places the word taught books scattered much conference daily consultations and disputations and the blood of Martyrs preaching vnto them aloud lately before All these being grāted yet they are so far from excusing your sinnes as even therefore it is far the greater inasmuch as by this it should seem you knew better and yet neyther did it then neyther do it yet vnto this day And so you are in the sinne and vnder the judgement spoken of in these Scriptures Iam. 4.17 Tit. 1.16 Ier. 6.16 Luk. 12.47.48 Let him that readeth mynd it well And this too that you speak not of the whole Land and all your Churches but onely of some places and persons such as had the books conference and disputations you speak of Pag. 3.6 Whereas your * former defence speaketh of your Churches as they are established by Law and therefore of them all 2. Next you alledge that there was more then half a yeare viz. “ from November to Midsomer for the people to heare learne and consider before the commandement came so that it was not suddayne neyther can be counted compulsion c. But know you not Mr Iacob 1. That it neyther was neyther could possibly be as you pretend that the people in that tyme throughout the Land should be taught Yet at Midsomer were all constrayned to receiv it whether they did so beleev or not 2. That this tyme was appointed not for the peoples instruction that so vpon konwledge they might do what was enjoyned but that in this tyme the Statute being knowen throughout the Land they should then do as was appointed howsoever they were perswaded thereof in themselves This I prove 1. Because the Priests and people that would were suffred by Law all that halfe yeares space to say and heare Masse as before Which I trow you will not say was to heare learne and consider as here you alledge 2. Because when Midsomer came they were bound to receyv and so did what was published for their faith worship Ministery c. howsoever eyther themselves were perswaded or the things imposed did agree or disagree with the word of God But now I would know what you will say to this that all your former pleading was from your Articles agreed vpon in the yeare 1562. and here you make your plea from your peoples estate in the yeare 1558. for then began her Majestyes reygne which I pray God long to continew and prosper If your professiō of those Articles made you now true Churches which before you were not how were your Assemblyes then rightly gathered so many yeares before as here you pretend Or if you were not true constituted Churches at that Midsomer you speak of here how could those Articles effect it being afterward agreed vpon not by your Churches See the title of those Art but by your Priests neyther by all of them but onelie by your Archbishops and Bishops and such other of your Clergy as were with them in the Convocation holden at London in the yeare 1562. If to this last point you say this agreement of your Prelates and Clergy was then published through the Land and so you count it as the agreement and ordinance of your whole Church then must you graunt withall that the Antichristian Canons Iniunctions Articles Advertissements c. agreed vpō at the same and like Convocations and likewise published are also the agreement and ordinance of your whole Church And so your Churches estate and profession is to be considered not by those Articles onelie of 1562. but by the rest likewise agreed vpō among you from tyme to tyme. Thus all your defence is found to be full of deceit and contradictiō every where But it may be in your next wee shall know your mynd better In the meane tyme we answer what you desier to know of vs viz That we condemne not reformation commaunded compelled by the Magistrate but do vnfeynedlie desier that God would put into the heart of her Maiesty and all other Princes within their Dominions to cōmaund and cōpell a reformation according to the word of the Lord As it is expressely noted that Hezekiah and other the good Kings of Iudah did 2 Chron. 30.12 2 King 18.6 23.25 2 Chron. 17.3.4.5.6 We acknowledge with thanks to God and her Maiesty that out of her Highnes Dominions there be alreadie abolished manie of the abominations of the Romish Babylon And we pray God that forasmuch as many of
it is appeareth not onely in the receyving and retayning in your Church the most profane of the Land and their seed yea and constreyning all whosoever in every Parish to be members thereof but is confessed also by your selves on all hands as I shewed * before Pag. 16. 2â— by testimony both of the Prelates and of the Reformists who do both of them testefy that your Church swarmeth with Whoremongers Drunkards Lyars Extortioners Blasphemers Sorcerers and other wicked persons Now say your self if these be not notorious dissolute and wicked Or if your Church abound not with such eveÌ„ to this day How were they then reclaymed c. as you pretend And how was your Church rightly gathered according to Gods ordinance Are these fit stones for the Lords Temple fit servants for the Lords house fit members for the body of Christ Whatsoever you think such estate is before God intolerable and by his word vnwarrantable .. Learne it by these and the like Scriptures 1. Pet. 2.5.9 1. Timoth 3.15 Zach. 14.21 Esa 35.8.9 1. Cor. 12.27 But you say we have likewise received bankrupts knowen bad men ignorant c. 1. If it were so would our sinne justifie yours 2. Neither in deed is it so as you charge vs. Knowen bad men we receive none at all By bankrupts if you meane such as are not able to pay their debts and do therefore think that they are not to be received or retained members of a true Church you do therein too much bewray your ignorance The Scripture teacheth that the true feare of God and want of ability to pay a mans debts may meet together in the same partie 2. King 4.1 Levit. 25.35 c. And who knoweth not that it is a triall wherewith God sometymes exerciseth his dearest children Iam. 2.5 with 2 King 4.1 c. Not to speak how there gathered to David who was a type of Christ in many things that befell him all that were in distresse debt and troubled in mynd c. 1. Sam. 22.2 Yet notwithstanding if any shall wilfully runne into debt not caring what they borrow so they may get it Rom. 13.8 with 2 King 4.7 neither making conscience to paie againe though they be able such do both break the commaundement of God which sayth vnto all †Owe nothing to any man but to love one another and are therefore by the Prophet accounted for wicked persons The wicked saith he borroweth and payeth not againe Psalm 37.21 Now any that are knowen to be such we neither receive nor retaine Yet you know yourselves it is common among you And what power hath your Church to redresse it if you would Towching ignorant men you have our mynd †before And as we are mynded Pag. 201. so do we practise Remembring alway that which is written of Christ our Lord A bruised reed shall he not break and smoking flax shall he not quench c. Esa 42.3 Math. 12.20.21 Where you adde further that we do still retayne men full of contention and bitter strife it is also vntrue For although with such men we have ben exercised as the Church on earth is alway subject to be that they which are approved may be knowen Yet neither is it any other thing then the Primitive Churches even in the tyme of the Apostles them selves did susteine as the ‡ i Cor. 3.3 Scripture here alledged by your self and * Act. 20.30 1. Cor. 11.16.19 Gal. 5.12.15 other the like do testifie and when such persoÌ„s and dealing once be manifest we cast them out from among vs and avoide them according to the rules prescribed in the word of God Gal. 5.12 1. Cor. 5.11.12 and 11.16 Rom. 16.17 Mat. 17.18 And yet even then when they are hardned and please them selves in strife and contentioÌ„ they may both be received and reteined members of your Church any of them that will come to your false worship and so returne to their former vomit againe That which followeth in the last place for the shutting vp of this matter when you say That which disanulleth not a Church gathered c. is directly against your self For seing confusion and commixture with the world and wicked thereof in one body of a Church will disanul and make voide a Church alredy gathered and setled how much more shall it there where a Church is but a gathering and beginning If we could imagine that to be a gathering of a Church which leaveth it still in confusion with the world and bondage to Antichrist Now that such mixtures with the profane will disanull Churches before gathered aright you may see by that which is written Gen. 6.2 c. Ezech. 16. chap. and 22.26 and 44.6.7.8 And in the Churches that were at Rome Ephesus Corinth c. Rev. 13.16 and 17.1 and 18.1 and 18.2 being compared with Rom. 1.7.2 Cor. 6.14 c. Thus all your aunswer is in a word taken away But further mynd here a contradiction with your self For now you graunt which before you denyed that your Church is commingled of all sorts of people having mixtures of profane and dissolute with the rest that are better among you The Scriptures you quote I have shewed ♣ before how you do pervert them Pag. 195. And thus much of the second particular The third was that you remaine in bondage to Antichristian Offices Courts c. This you graunt to be your generall sinne Which is directlie to give the cause For they which stand in bondage to Antichrist cannot possibly in such estate have also the power and libertie of Christ eyther for choise of Officers or for any other action to be performed by the power and in the Name of the Lord Iesus Thus having given the cause yet fearing belike to yeeld too much to the truth you labour still to lessen and excuse your sinne as much as you can Now you alledge that it is not of the most heynous nor extremest disobedience And thus may all sinne be pleaded for except the sinne against the holy Ghost Thus might Nadab and Abihu justifie their straunge fier Corach Dathan and Abiram their vsurping of the Priests office the Ten Tribes their desertion the Papists all their abominations Hymenaâ—s and Philetus all their impieties and finally all Hereticks and lewd persons their heresies and bad dealing Next you tell vs of sinnes that are against the foundation or not against it of the Iewish Church of the auncyent declining Bishops Cyprian c. of King Edwards dayes M. Cranmer Ridley Hooper c. of your Churches and Ministers generally that you are not all convicted c. These pretences are all aunswered before in the former Treatise Mynd now withall that the sinne of the later Bishops synce the exaltation of Antichrist is far more grievous then was the sinne of the other that were before that tyme hath because the Mystery of that iniquitie is now more more fully disclosed which then was more hid and secret and because these
And for the other that Christ notwithstanding said to some of the Iewes Maâ— 15.9 they vvorshipped God in vaine teaching doctrines mens precepts Mat. 15.9 How say you Mr Iacob is the Scripture therefore contrarie to it self Or were Christs speaches contrarie the one to the other Pag. 83. 2 Besides are you so dull as you can not conceive no not when it is told you that the sinnes and corruptioÌ„s of the meÌ„bers of a true Church may fitlie be alledged against whole false Churches and yet neither condemne the true constitution of that Church wherein the one stand nor justifie the false constitution of the other 3 Yea know you not that a Church in true constitution jointlie considered may be said to be true vvorshippers of God c. and yet some yea manie of that Church be said also through their owne default in other respect to vvorship God in vaine or to be tainted with Idolatry or the like And yet no contradiction be implyed in so saying Seing you cannot vnderstand it in Christs words concerning the Ievves see if you can perceive it in Pauls to the Corinthians When he speaketh to the whole Church jointlie considered he commendeth them for keping his ordinaÌ„ces and acknowledgeth they call on the Name of the Lord Iesus 1 Cor. 1.2 11.2 But when he speaketh in respect of some that sate and eat of the sacrifices in the Idol-temples he biddeth them fly from Idolatry and telleth them they cannot be partakers of the Lords table and of the table of Divels 1 Cor. 10.14.21 8.10 Yet is he not contrarie to himself for all this Mynd withall what I aunswerd before concerning this point in the Second reason Pag 90. And so againe I leave it to the Reader to judge whether the contrariety you speak of be not in deed an harmony and that therefore you abuse both the Scripture and vs. Chap. 13. The seventh Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson If the Spirit of God account them to be departers from the faith and consequentlie no true Christians who though they hold other truthes of the Gospell yet forbid to marry and commaund to absteine from meats vvhich God hath created to be received vvith thankesgiving Then such account must needs be made of the estate of the Church of England which not onelie both these things but withall forbiddeth the true Ministerie and worship of God and commaundeth a false Whose Ministers and people also do all of them partake therein For proof whereof besides their practise of these and persecution of the truth see their owne Canons Articles Statutes Iniunctions c. But the former is true 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 7. Reason â—â— 1â— THis yout seaventh Reason is They are departed from the faith that forbid to marry and commaund to abstayne from lawfull meates Also this is worse then that viz. to forbid the true Ministery and to commaunde a false which we in England doe Ergo we are departers from the faith I deny this AntecedeÌ„t that is your AssumptioÌ„ with a distinctioÌ„ The Papists †See â—hâ—â—â— Testam in Mat. 15.18 Fr. Io. See D. Fulkeâ— answer therevnto forbidding of mariage meals if they had don no worse doth not make them departers froÌ„ the saith that is not “ or not fuÌ„damentally not simply vvhich vvordâ—s I think â—itter to bee here vsed as in my next Reply is further declard totally No more could their Hyerarchie and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such The Papistes fall from Christ ‡ That is fundameÌ„tally simply see in the 2. Reply follovving wholy in other poincts namely 1. The Papall supremacy 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by workes Which blessed bee God wee are farre from Therfore the Apostle in saying They departed from the faith meaneth in * vid. in abstayning froÌ„ Mariage and meetes these poincts they erred or departed from the faith but not absolutly and wholy 2. Furthermore touching your Proposition if you vnderstand Paul of Martion the Heretike and Tatianus who did absolutly condemne Mariage and certen meats they even therein might vvholy fall froÌ„ the faith I meane somwhat like to Balaam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites “ Pag. 105.112 lately spoken of namely for having their consciences convicted and seared with a whot iron And thus are they in no comparison with vs of EnglaÌ„d nor with the Papistes neither if they had erred in nothing else Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 7. Reason HEre being not able with any colour to deny the consequent of the Proposition neither to justify your present Ministery worship Canons Articles IniunctioÌ„s c. which you must do Mr Iacob and still we call for it if you will justify your present estate yet being desperate sure for els you would never have done it you feare not to gainsay the Assumption that is the very words and testimony of the Scripture it self 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 The Apostle saith that they which forbidd Mariage and Meats are departed from the faith You say No. Now whether I pray you shall we beleev You or the Apostle But what colour have you for your deniall This forsooth That they which doe so do not depart from the faith totally and that the Apostles meaning is that in these poincts they depart from the faith but not absolutly and wholy So by your conceit none may be accounted departers from the faith that depart onelie in some poincts but they which doe it totally from all And thus may no heretikes or Antichrists that euer haue bene or shal be in the world be iudged departers froÌ„ the faith because they depart from it but in some poincts and not absolutly from all Thus have you justified at once the Arians Nestorians Sabellians Papists Familistes Anabaptistes and whom not because they depart but in some not wholy from all poincts of faith Is it not great pitie that Antichrist hath so long wanted such a stout Champion as can thus in one word justify his forbidding of meates and mariage yea and his most detestable Hierarchie and superstitions withall By your learning Mr Iacob all the Martyrs and writers heretofore which by evideÌ„ce of this Scripture convicted the Synagoges of Antichrist to have departed from the faith and therefore separated from them were vtterly deceived Yea and the Apostles themselves were wholy mistaken when they call Antichrists Church and Religion ♣ 2 Thes 2.7 a mysterie of iniquitie which ‡ 1 Tim. 4.2 speaketh lies through hypocrisy * 2 Pet. â— 1 prively bringing in daÌ„nable heresies and ‡ hauing a shew of godlines but denying the power thereof And Iohns eyes it seemeth were not matches 2 Tim. 3.4 when he saw in the whores forehead that is in Antichrists Church and Religion a name written A mystery great Babylon the mother of vvhoredomes and
abhominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 For now I would know of you who are so deep a Clerke how Antichrists Church and Religion should iustly be accounted a mystery of iniquitie and truely be said to speak Lies in hypocrisy also prively to bring in Damnable heresies and to haue a Shevv of godlines if they did absolutly and vvholy departe from the faith and not onelie frō some points thereof But over and above all it seemeth by this reason that not onelie the Apostles were mistaken in giuing vs markes how to know false teachers and false religions But also Christ himselfe when he said †Mat. 7.15 Bevvare of false Prophetes vvhich come to you in sheepes clothing but invvardly are ravening vvolves And againe †Mat. 24.23.24 If any shall say vnto you Loe here is Christ or there beleeve it not For there shall arise false Christs and false Prophets and shall shevv great signes and vvonders so that if it vvere possible they should deceive the very elect Now if they should totally depart frō the faith what sheepes clothing I pray you should they have to come in Or how should either themselves be said to come in the name of Christ affirming their Religion to be Christs and shewing signes and wonders to draw men therevnto Or the elect be in such vnspeakable danger to be deceived by them This might suffice to shew the falsehood and impietie of your answer But yet I will note a few things mo therein First it being graunted that the popish forbidding of Mariage and meats so they were no worse doth not make them depaxters frō the faith totally yet tell vs if holding never so manie truthes besides and yet forbidding these they could by the word of God truely be said in that estate to hold the faith of Christ and to be true Christians 1 Tim. 4.1.3 If they could not as the Apostle * testifieth then is your answer in this respect also nothing to the purpose but against your self both for the popish forbidding of meats and mariage and for the English Hierarchy and other abominations among you received from the Papistes which vnder colour of this answer you would defend Next see in Bales Votaries and in the Acts and monuments c. what abominable filthines the forbidding of mariage and what fowle superstition the forbidding of meats hath wrought in the kingdome of Antichrist And tell me then what man fearing God durst once open his mouth for such divelish doctrines and estate Againe where you say The Papists fall from Christ in other poincts besides the aforsaid Namely 1. The Papall supremacie 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by vvorkes vvhich England novv is far from Tell vs first whether in this sence the Papists can for these be said to depart from the faith totally If they can not what weight is there in this for defēce of your estate that the Papists could not alledge for themselves viz that in these poincts they depart from the faith but not absolutly and wholy Secondly tell vs whether there are no other poincts but these three in the Papists Religion which make them in their estate to be departers from the faith and consequentlie false Christians and false Churches If there be as you can not deny of what weight then is your answer to defend the present constitution of your people and assemblies seeing there are divers other things besides these that do and may cause that you can not be deemed true Christians or true Churches in that estate Many “ Servetus Sabellius Arius the Anabaptistes c. heretikes heretofore have and at this day do reject these three aforsaid Are they therefore in their estate to be accounted true Chrestians or true Churches Thirdly your manner of reasoning heer for your defence is as if the Adulterers to justify their course of life should alledge thus We are 1 no Blasphemers 2 no Persecutors 3 no Murtherers as such and such are therefore we depart not from the way of life but our estate and course of life is good and such as may be continued in Yet the Scripture sayth * Iam. 2.10.11 whosoever shall keep the vvhole Lavv and yet faileth in one poinct is guiltie of all For he that sayed Thou shalt not commit adulterie saied also Thou shalt not kill Novv though thou doest no adultery yet if thou killest thou art a transgressour of the Lavv and contrariwise So that whatsoever sinnes the Adulterer be far from yet as Salomon saith cōmitting adultery vvith a vvoman he fayleth in heart and destroyeth his owne soule Prov. 6.32 The same is the case of all spirituall Adulterers who whatsoever sinnes they be farre from yet in the worship of God runne a vvhoring after their owne inventions embracing the bosomes of strange vvomen and drinking on their cup of fornications Num. 15.39 vvith Prov. 5.20 and Rev. 17.4 Ier. 4.18 Fourthly shew vs sufficient warrant from the Scriptures why setting these three aside the Hierarchy and other popish abominations received among you can not be judged to make you in such estate departers from the faith and therefore false Christians and false Churches whatsoever truthes you hold besides Num. 16.1.2 c. Corah Dathan Abiram and their partakers were far from the Abominations of the Heathen they held also the poincts of faith that Moses and Aaron held differing onelie from them and departing onely from the faith in a matter concerning the Priesthood whereof notwithstanding they * vers 3. shewed their reasons why they were so perswaded Yet will you not deny I trow but they departed from the faith and were in this estate neither to be accounted true Israelits nor their assemblies true Churches with which communion might be kept If you should the Scripture is witnesse against you Num. 16.26 Now compare case with case and tyme with tyme and you shall find the estate of your people and Assemblies to be far more grievous As hath ben shewed alreadie in the Second Exception before and in other Treatises to which we have yet received no answer viz The ansvver to Maister A.H. The 9. Reasons concerning not hearing the Ministers of these assemblies of England To conclude this poinct if your Abominations in England were farre fewer then they are yet so long as you reteine that poisonfull leaven of your Hierarchy and vvorship we must tell you as the Scripture saith and experience teacheth That †2. King 4.39.40 a little poison bringeth death vnto the whole pot of potage A 1 Cor. 5.6 litle leaven leaveneth the vvhole lump And Eccl. 10.1 a fevv dead flyes cause the oynctemēt of the Apothecarie to stinke and putrifie Although indeed your abominations are not a few but swarme in abundance among you Some whereof see before Pag. 63. c. In the next place fearing belike that the evidence of “ 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 this Scripture could not by these shiftes of yours be avoided