Sunne and in the Moone and vpon the crosse that is in many places and that c Idem in Ioan. er 31. Cùm ad alium locum venerit in eo loco vnde venit non est When he is come to another place he is not in the place from whence he came and therefore that d Vigil cont Eutich lib. 4. Quando in terra fuit caro Christi non erat vtiâ— in coelo nunc quia in coelo est non est vtique in terra The body of Christ when it was vpon earth was not in heauen and now because it is in heauen it is not vpon the earth that e Ambr. in Luc. l. 1. c. 24. Ergo non supra terram nec interra nec secundum carnem ti quaerere debemus si volumus inuenire c. Stephanus tetigit quia quaesiuit in coele If we will find Christ we must not seeke him in the earth nor vpon the earth nor according to the flesh but in heauen They would neuer haue spoken thus without any limitation or exception if they had beleeued that which M. Bishop heere would make vs beleeue out of the doctrine of the church of Rome that the body of Christ may be in infinite places at once that it may be together both in heauen and earth with forme and without forme both visible and inuisible both circumscribed and vncircumscribed that is to say by a plaine contradiction both that that it is and that that it is not Surely they would haue saied as we doe If it be visible it cannot be inuisible or if it be inuisible it cannot be visible if it haue forme then it is not without forme or if it be without forme how should it be said to haue any forme both these cannot stand together True saith M. Bishop in one and the same maner of existence and being And say I if it be but one and the same body it can at once haue but one maner of existing and being for according to the same or totally to be thus not thus cannot agree to one and the same thing As for his instances whereby hee would take away the improbabilitie of this fancie they are altogether ridiculous Christ saith hee when hee was transfigured had another maner of outward forme and appearance then he had before and after his resurrection when it pleased him hee was visible to his Apostles and at other times inuisible And what then Ergo Christs body may be in many places at once it may together be both visible and inuisible and whatsoeuer pleaseth them But a man may euen as well say M. Bishop is sometimes hot and sometimes cold somtimes asleepe sometimes awake sometimes sober sometimes merrie sometimes like a schollar sometimes like a swaggerer sometimes at Rome sometimes in England ergò hee may at one time be together both asleepe and awake both visible and inuisible both at Rome and in England and in many places at once so that though by Parsons procurement he were fast laied vp in prison yet he might at the same time be personally before the Pope to acquaint him with the appeale of the secular Priests and the exorbitant dealing of the Iesuites against them What will he not call him a dreaming Sophister that should conclude thus Well then let him for his paines take his fellow to him and learne to argue more wisely another time But marke heere gentle Reader that M. Bishop maketh Philosophie a witnesse of this matter We haue thought heeretofore that they rested the same wholly and meerely vpon the omnipotent power of God and haue obserued how their schoole-philosophers when they speake of relation of bodies to their places do except this matter of the reall presence as a matter of irregularity not comming within compasse of the rules of Philosophy but farre transcendent aboue all their learning Now M. Bishop will make vs beleeue that it standeth with good Philosophy and that all their Philosophers haue all this while beene deceiued marrie it is woorth the while to note in what termes and how warily he hath set it downe The externall relations of bodies vnto their places do no whit at all destroy their inward and naturall substances as all Philosophy testifieth You say well M. Bishop and very wisely Indeed it is not relation to a place but the want of relation to a place that taketh away the nature of a body For f Aug. epist 50. spatia locorum tolle corporibus nusquam erunt quia nusquam erunt nec erunt take from bodies space of place saieth Austin and they shall be no where and because they shall be no where they shall not be at all g Cyril de Trinit lib. 2. si corpus in loco omninò in magnitudine in quantitaete si quanta facta esset non effugeret cireumscriptionem If it be a body saith Cyrill then verily it is in a place and hath greatnesse and quantitie and if it haue quantitie it cannot be but that it must be circumscribed h Didym de spâ—sancto l. 2. si spiritus veritatis iuxta naturas corporum circumscriptus est certo spacio alium deserens locum ad alium commigrauit It is the nature of a body saieth Didymus to be circumscribed in a certaine space and therefore by comming into one place it must forsake another You therefore affirming the body of Christ vncircumscribed and hauing no commensuration or space of place and comming into one place without the leauing of another doe thereby vtterly destroy the nature of a body i Ibid. Impossibile est impium ista quae diximus in corporalibus credere It is impossible and a thing impious saith Didymus to beleeue these things concerning bodily substances This was the Philosophy that these Fathers had learned They knew by Philosophy and by trueth that a body must haue extension of parts and one part different and distant from another and place correspondent to euerie part so that where one part is there another cannot be and the whole so limited to one place as that without leauing that place it cannot be in another but neither did Philosophy nor Diuinitie teach them that vncircumscribed body which M. Bishop speaketh of 3. W. BISHOP Secondly Master PERKINS chargeth vs with disgrading Christ of his offices saying that for one Iesus Christ the only King law-giuer and head of the Church they ioine vnto him the Pope not only as a Vicar but as a fellow in that they giue vnto him power to make lawes binding in conscience to resolue and determine infallibly the sense of holy Scripture properly to pardon sinne to haue authority ouer the whole earth and a part of hell to depose Kings to whom vnder Christ euery soule is subject to absolue subjects from the oath of allegeance c. Answer Here is a bed-role of many superfluous speeches for not one of all these things if
habeant notitiam leprosi vel non leprosi possint discernere qui mundus quiuè immundus fit sic hic alligat vel soluit episcopus Et Presbyter non eos qui insontes sunt vel noxij sed pro officio suo cum peccatorum audierit varietates scit qui ligandus sit qui soluendus as the Priest in Moses law did make the Leper cleane or vncleane not for that he did so properly and indeed but only tooke notice who was a leper and who was not and did discerne betwixt the cleane and the vncleane so heere the Bishop or Priest doth bind or loose not bind them which be innocent or loose the guilty but when according to his office he heareth the variety of sinnes he knoweth who is to be bound and who to be loosed Not so then as that in propriety of speech he either remitteth or retaineth sinnes but only discerneth and notifieth who is to be taken for bound with God and who for loosed whose sinnes must be holden either to be remitted or retained y Idem in Mat. 18. vt sciant qui à talibus condemnantur sententiam humanam diuina sententia roborari Which sentence of man they who are thus condemned as Hierome againe saith must know to be strengthened and made good by the sentence of God himself namely when it proceedeth according to those rules and directions which God hath prescribed in this behalfe for otherwise z Idem in Mat. 16. Cùm apud deum non sententia sacerdotis sed reorum vita quaeratur it is not the sentence of the Priest but the life of the parties that is inquired of with God Here then the Pope is a manifest vsurper first against God in that he taketh vpon him a power properly to forgiue sinnes and thereby seateth himselfe in the throne of Iesus Christ secondly against the Church of God in challenging to himselfe a propriety of that which was spoken a Gregor in 1. Reg. l 6. cap. 3. vniuersali ecclesiae dicitur Quodcunque ligaueris c. to the vniuersall Church and wherein euery one that is a successour of the Apostles hath as great power and authority as he Christ saith he gaue his Apostles authority ouer the whole earth Goe into the vniuersall world But by this Christ gaue no more authority to one of them then he did to another and whatsoeuer he gaue them what is it to the Pope that he should thereby challenge b Deecret Greg. de foro competenti cap. Licet de Appellat ca. vt debitus in glossa Papa vnusomnium hominum ordinarius the whole world to be his diocesse and should define that c Extrau de maior obed c. vnam santam subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae pronunciamus omninò esse de necessitate salutis it concerneth euery humane creature vpon perill of damnation to be subiect vnto him And what authority did Christ giue them hereby other then S. Mathew expresseth d Mat. 28.19 Goe teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost teaching them to obserue al things whatsoeuer I haue commanded you This was their authority they had no power to command but what Christ had commanded them Let the Pope conforme himselfe to the tenour of this commission and he will then renounce his Popedome and we shall acknowledge him the disciple and seruant of Iesus Christ Ouer a part of hell he saith no Pope hath authority signifying thereby according to their partition the hell of the damned But how then did Clement the sixt not doubt to say in one of his Buls e Bale in Clem. 6. Nolumus quòd paena inferni sibi aliquatenus infligatur we will that the punishment of hell in no sort be laied or inflicted vpon him and how was it that Gregorie deliuered the soule of Traian out hell as f See Bellarm. de purgatorio lib. 2. cap. 8. Damascen hath reported and sundry authours of the Church of Rome as Bellarmine acknowledgeth haue stedfastly beleeued If M. Bishop tell vs that Gregorie did that only by way of intreaty and request he himselfe granteth the Pope to haue no other ouer Purgatory and therefore ouer hell and Purgatory he hath authority both alike When he doth good to any soule in Purgatory it is per modum suffragij as a suppliant and intreater not as a commander saith he But how then did the same Clement the sixt say concerning them who should die by the way as they were comming to his Iubilee at Rome g Bale vt supra Nihilominus prorsus mandamus angelis Paradisi quatenus animam à Purgatorie pentius absolu tam in Paradisi gloriam introducant We command the Angels of Paradise that they bring the soule of such a one into Paradise being fully freed from Purgatorie paines And what is all this power no more now but to supplicate and intreat Haue they mocked the world all this while made men beleeue that the Pope not only hath power to deliuer soules out of Purgatory himselfe but can also impart the same to others and is all come now to supplication and intreaty Why M. Bishop can supplicate and intreat as well as the Pope and what reason haue we but to thinke that God is as readie to heare his praier as the Popes and so by that meanes he shall haue as great power ouer Purgatory as the Pope Such are the mockeries of Poperie such are their doctrines of religion they themselues can not well tell what to make of them Further he saieth Whether the Pope hath any authoritie ouer Princes and their subiects in temporall affaires it is questioned by some The more shame is it M. Bishop for them by whom it is questioned Tertullian reporteth the minde of the ancient Church in this behalfe h Tertul. ad scapul Colimus imâ—eratorem vt hominem à deo secundum quicquid est à deo consecutum solo deo minorem We honour the Emperour as the man next to God and as hauing receiued of God whatsoeuer he is being inferiour to God onely And is it now come to be questioned whether the Pope euen in temporall affaires haue authority ouer Princes who in their kingdomes respectiuely are the same that the Emperour then was But is it questioned onely M. Bishop and not determined Wee may indeed admire their impudency therein that they who so much pretend antiquitie should resolue a matter so contrarie to the doctrine and example of all antiquitie but yet they haue so resolued that either directly or indirectly the Pope hath superioritie ouer Princes euen intemporall affaires i Treatise tending to Mitigation c. in the Preface to the Reader sect 22. The Canonists do commonly defend the first part saith the Mitigatour that is directly but Catholike Diuines for the most part the second that is indirectly and by
appeare further As for his other quarrell that we haue in our churches neither Altars nor Images it pleaseth vs the better for that we finde the same also obiected to the first Christians by x Celsus apud Origen cont Cels l. 7. Non ferunt templa aras statuas inspicere lib. 8. Celsus ait nos ararum statuarū templorumque dedicationes fugere Celsus the Pagan We like well to be vnlike to the Church of Rome so that we may be like to them For M. Bishop we know him to be a man much delighted with babies a trimme gilded Rood and a goodly faire Lady they are the ioy of his heart Let God say what he will that y Esay 44 10. the Image is profitable for nothing and that z Ierem. 10.8 the stocke is a doctrine of vanity yet he will not be perswaded but that the sight of these goodly Idols is the only way to procure heauenly meditation As for sentences of Scripture to be set vp vpon the Church walles that is but dawbing it is but Ale-house fashion and no heauenly meditation groweth thereof But may we not thinke that he came from the Ale-house when he wrot this and that he is indeed fitter for an Ale-house than for the Church What must we thinke that the looking vpon a dumbe and dead stocke is fitter to mooue heauenly meditation than the liuelie word of God But we see his meaning well enough it is this Scripture that troubleth him his stomacke can by no meanes brooke this Scripture to haue Gods commandement written vpon the church wals as by order it is appointed a Exod. 20.4 Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image nor the likenesse of any thing that is in heauen aboue or in the earth beneath c. Thou shalt not bow downe to them nor worship them c. This is it that galleth him to the soule this is it that vexeth him in behalfe of his faire and religious pictures that no bowing downe no holy and religious worship may bee done to them But it is nothing to vs that wee offend him God himselfe who said of his Commandements b Deut. 6.9 Thou shalt write them vpon the postes of thine house and vpon thy gates did not thinke it Ale-house fashion to haue them written vpon Church-walles but that we should set vp Altars and Images in our Churches wee doe not finde any warrant to haue come from him His last exception is very idle It was the ancient custome of Christians to pray with their faces towards the East So is it ours also as appeareth vsually in all our Churches Yea but our Ministers in their highest mysteries looke into the South Well and so is it alleaged by Bishop Iewell that c Bish Iewel Replie art 3. Diuis 26. at this day in the great Churches at Millaine Naples Lions Mentz and Rome and in the Church of Saint Laurence in Forence the Priest in his seruice standeth towards the West hauing his face full vpon the people and that heereupon Durand saith that in such places the Priest needeth not to turne himselfe round when he saith Dominus vobiscum and saluteth the people as otherwise hee is woont to doe And why not our Ministers towards the South as well as theirs towards the West Will he haue vs to conclude heereof that their religion is now declining and going downe If not let him acknowledg then the folly of his owne collection that our spirituall state is now at the highest and that in our religion there is no hope of rising towards heauen but assurance of declining Albeit I must aduertise him briefely that true religion wherby the Sunne of righteousnesse shineth vnto vs and whereby we rise to heauen hath beene subiect to such condition to bee sometimes rising sometimes at the height and sometimes declining againe yea sometimes woonderfully eclipsed and hidden in a maner quite out of sight yet notwithstanding it neuer had such a fall but that as the sunne it hath had a time to rise againe But the whore of Babylon the persecutour of true religion albeit she haue flattered herselfe in the security of her state and said of herselfe d Reuel 18.7 I sit like a Queene and am no widow and shall see no mourning yet shee hath begun to fall and notwithstanding the props and staies that her louers vse to hold her vp shall fall daily more and more neuer to rise againe God hauing so foretold vs that e Vers 21. as a milstone shee shal be cast with violence into the sea thencefoorth to be found no more 21. W. BISHOP I may not heere omit that of late yeeres they haue caused the Kings armes to be set vp in the place where Christs armes the Crucifix was wont to stand the which I confesse would haue graced their Church better if it had beene elsewhere placed But I hope they will giue mee leaue to aske them how they durst set vp any such Images in their Churches as be in that armes For they haue taught hitherto that it is expresly against the second commandement and a kinde of Idolatry not only to worship Images but also to set them vp in Churches and yet now as it were cleane for getting themselues they fall into that fault themselues that they haue so much blamed in others Neither will it helpe them to say that they reprooued only the setting vp of holy pictures but not of others For the second commandement as they expound it is aswell against the one as the other forbidding generally the making of any kinde of Image And is it not a pitifull blindnesse to thinke that the pictures of Lions and Liberts do better become the house of God than the Image of his owne Son and of his faithfull seruants And may not simple people thinke when they see Christs armes cast downe and the Princes set vp in their place that there dwell men who make more account of their Princes honour then they doe of Christs And that their meeting in that place call it what you will is rather to serue their Prince than to serue Christ But I haue beene longer in their place of praier than I thought R. ABBOT The King is a great mote in M. Bishops eie and therefore he could not heere passe by without a quarrell to the Kings armes The Kings armes lawfully set vp in our Churches and not popish images We haue placed hee saith the Kings armes where Christs armes the Crucifixe was woont to stand But who made M. Bishop a herauld to assigne armes to Christ and that without any priuity or liking of Christ himselfe Did Christ euer tell him or any man else that he meant to giue a Crucifixe for his armes This is a fantasticall imagination neither did Christ take course by a picture but by the word of the Gospell to be a Gal. 3.1 described before our eies as crucified amongst vs. But if the
de notis eccles cap. 7. Si solae vna prouincia retineret veram fidem adhuc verè propriè diceretur ecclesia Catholica dummodo clarè ostenderetur eam esse vnam eandem cum illa quae fuit aliquo tempore vel diuersis in toto mundo if one only countrey should retaine the true faith yet the same should truly and properly be called the Catholike church so that it might cleerely be shewed to be one and the same with that which hath been at any time or times ouer the whole world For by this rule nothing hindreth but that our church though now it be not receiued generally in the greatest part of the Christian world yea if it were but in one onely country yet may truely and properly be called the Catholike church if it be prooued to be one and the same with the church which at any time heeretofore was spred ouer all the world But that our church is the same with that which at the first was spred thorowout the world it is very euident as Tertullian teacheth vs to prescribe g Tert. de praescript adu haeret In eadem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae by consanguinity or agreement of our doctrine with the doctrine of that church For by the Gospell which the Apostles preached the church was founded thorowout the whole world h Iren. lib. 3. cap. 1. Quod quidem tunc praeconiauerunt postea per dei voluntatem in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt fundamentum columnam fidei nostrae futurum The gospell which the Apostles preached they afterwards by the will of God deliuered to vs in the Scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith The same Gospel deliuered to vs in the Scriptures we receiue we adde nothing to it we take nothing from it as we finde it so we teach it Our faith therefore is the same with the faith of that church which at the first was planted thorowout the whole world There is no cause then for vs to forsake our owne church or to thinke that the same began with Friar Luther as this dreamer imagineth which by so plaine deduction is approoued to be the same with the first church and consequently to be truely and properly the Catholike Church Finally saith he they beleeue no church in all points of faith But doth his wisedome finde it in the articles of the Creed that we are to beleeue any church in all points of faith The church how farre to be beleeued in points of faith We are taught there to beleeue that there is a holy catholike Church which is the communion of Saints but nothing doe we finde there of beleeuing any Church in all points of faith We beleeue the Church in points of faith so farre as she yeeldeth herselfe like a faithfull and obedient spouse to be guided by the voice of her Lord and husband Iesus Christ But if the Church preferre her owne will before the word of Christ as the proud harlot of Rome doth it should be a wrong to Christ to beleeue the Church and a way to set vp humane errour in stead of diuine truth It is not the voice of the Church but the word of the written Gospell which God hath appointed as Irenaeus euen now hath told vs to be the foundation and pillar of our faith For the words of the Church are many times the words of errour and vntruth and therefore if we should relie our saluation vpon the credit thereof wee should indeed relie vpon an vncertaine ground and erring guide but the word of the Gospell is alwaies one and the same without any variablenesse or vncertainty and therefore safely may wee relie our saluation thereupon Now therefore it cannot be said but that wee alwaies beleeue one holy catholike Church according to the profession of faith specified in the Creed though sometimes and in some things we doe not beleeue that is credit the visible Church as touching points of faith because the Church sometimes teacheth vs to beleeue otherwise than God hath taught Which though it seeme strange to M. Bishop in that language which he hath learned to speake yet to vs it is not strange who in the Canonicall histories of the Churches both of the old and new Testament do so often see them diuerting and turning from the right way As for that hee saith that our learned masters doe commonly cashiere out of the Creed the addition of the cōmunion of saints it is but a fruit of the harnessing of his face and he is therefore bold to say it because he hath learned not to be ashamed of any thing that he list to say That by the Saints are there meant al good Christians all the faithful whether aliue or dead we will not denie Communion of Saints implieth neither Purgatorie nor praier to saints but that either praier to saints or praier for soules in purgatorie belong to this communion of Saints we neuer yet learned and are too old to learne it now For as for the Saints in heauen i Aug. de vera relig cap 55. Honoramus eos charitate non seruitute honorandi propter imitationem non propter religionem adorandi We honour them with loue as Austin saith but not with seruice to follow them by imitation not to adore them by religion and therefore not to pray vnto them Further entercourse as yet there is none betwixt them and vs because k Esay 63.16 they know vs not nor are acquainted with vs nor can we any way acquaint them what wee say vnto them Now beside the Saints triumphant in heauen wee acknowledge none but those that are militant vpon the earth because the holie Ghost diuideth the whole body of the Church into l Eph. 1.10 Col. 1.20 those that are in heauen and those that are in earth and pronounceth them all m Reu. 14.13 blessed that are dead in Christ as who rest from labours and sorrowes and thereby are discharged from all Purgatorie paines But if there be any soules in Purgatorie to which all good Christian soules should yeeld and affoord their helpe to doe them ease and this be one matter of the entercourse and communion of Gods Saints why doth the Pope violate the communion of Saints by withholding from those tormented soules that helpe and ease which he is able to affoord them Surely if he cannot doe them ease then is he an impudent liar and a notable impostour and cozener of the world If he can do it then is he a cruell wretch that without compassion suffereth poore souls to lie broiling in those fierie flames But we rather approoue the former member of this diuision and take him for a liar both for that without warrant hee thrusteth in Purgatorie into the articles of our faith and with lesse warrant challengeth the same for a iurisdiction to himselfe 13. W. BISHOP 10 The forgiuenesse of sinnes
condition of fraile and sinfull flesh Now because no part of this could be imported in that memoriall if it were a thankesgiuing for the Saints therefore whether M. Higgons will or not it must necessarily be taken to haue been a praier for them And heereof there is one argument more in the last part of the comparison when he saith of Christ that he is in heauen and of the Saints that they are in the earth by their bodies yet resting in the earth Where it hath some reason that they should say We pray for them as respecting that their bodies lie yet in the dust of the earth expecting a blessed and happy resurrection which we craue to bee reuealed vpon them but to say that they meant to giue thanks to God for that the bodies of the Saints lie buried in the earth it were senslesse and absurd And because it is confirmed vnto vs by the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy that the Church did pray for the dead in respect of the resurrection therefore wee cannot doubt but that the memoriall heere spoken of by Epiphanius vsed for the Saints in respect of their bodies in the earth was a praier for them to wish their full and perfect consummation by the resurrection from the dead My former conclusion therefore hence deduced standeth good that sith the ancient Church thus praied for the Saints and Martyrs therefore that certaine it is they did not pray vnto them And because they thus praied for the Saints whose soules they were assured were in heauen therefore they praied for the dead without respect of Purgatory which now is made the onely ground and reason of praier for the dead 38. The next matter for which he questioneth me is concerning the opinion of the Greeke churches as touching Purgatory and prayer for the dead My words are such as might haue serued to weaken his motiue had hee not beene resolued without any motiue to remooue and run away What could he haue better to resolue him then that which I say that the Papists themselues confesse that Purgatory was not receiued or beleeued in the Greeke Churches and therefore that it is certaine that they had no respect of Purgatory in their praier for the dead I did not onely say that the Papists confesse it but I cited the places of their confession Alfonsus De Castro saith k Alfons De Castro adu haeres lib. 8. tit de Indulgent In antiquis scriptoribus de Purgatorio feré nulla mentio potissimum apud Graecos Scriptores quae de causa vsque in hodiernum diem purgatorium non est a Graecis creditum Of Purgatory there is in a maner no mention at all with the ancients but specially with the Greeke writers for which cause Purgatory is not beleeued of the Greekes vntill this day Yea not of the Greekes only but of the Armenians also he acknowledgeth that l Ibid lib. 12. de purgatorio vnus ex notissimis erroribus Graecorum Armeniorum est quo docent nullum esse Purgatorium c. they teach there is no Purgatory calling it an errour well knowen concerning them both The words of Roffensis their great and holy Martyr I cited out of Polydore Virgil m Polyd. Virg. de inuent rer lib. 8. cap. 1. ex Roffensi De Purgatorio apud priscos nulla vel quà m rarissima fiebat mentio sed Graecis ad hunc vsque diem non est creditum esse Of Purgatory there was none or very rare mention made amongst the ancient Fathers yea and with the Greekes it is not beleeued till this day Thus did they ingenuously acknowledge as the truth is and did it nothing stagger M. Higgons to finde this so plainly acknowledged Did it make him nothing doubt of his imagined mutuall dependance of Purgatory and praier for the dead Surely he was a very voluntary conuert or else he might easily haue seene that it is no good connexion to say They praied for the dead therefore they beleeued Purgatory but rather they beleeued not Purgatory therefore they praied not for the dead in any such meaning as the Papists now doe He might haue remembred that which I told Doct. Bishop that many amongst vs of custome and of humane affection of loue doe vse many times words of praier for the dead who notwithstanding from the bottome of their hearts doe vtterly defie both Purgatory and the Pope 39. In another place hee saith that it is n Book 1. part 2. cap. 3. ¶ 4. num 2. to our great disreputation that I name the Albigenses as professours of the same faith and religion which we now prefesse But why Forsooth he knoweth no cause himselfe but referreth his Reader to Parsons the Iesuit in his treatise of the three conuersions of England Yea M. Higgons would you make Parsons his narration a motiue of your recantation Would you giue heed to him whom you knew by the testimony of his owne fellows to be a man of Belial an infamous wretch a meere politizing Atheist and therefore likely if it were to serue his turne to deale with the stories of the ancient Christian Martyrs as he hath done with M. Foxes story carying himselfe in all that worke like a very Porphyrie or Iulian applauding himselfe and seeking to bee applauded in a iollity of forcing all things euen against the haire to scorne and mockery You say the Albigenses in their opinions followed the Waldenses as indeed they were the same some part of them onely being so called of the towne wherein they dwelt and would you beleeue Parsons concerning the opinions of the Waldenses who o Exam. of Fox his calen cap. 3. num 13. Of these Waldēses see at large Simon Goulart Catalog test veritatis lib. 15. Where thou shalt see how leaudly Parsons hath dealt with them disclaimeth Aeneas Syluius who was afterwards Bishop of Rome testifying their faith and doctrine vprightly and faithfully as of his owne knowledge that so he may giue way to other either carelesse or malicious reporters who impiously fathered vpon them strange paradoxes in no other sort than Friar p Edm. Campi decem rat cap. 8. passim Campian lately dealt with vs Yea and is not ashamed to cite q Three Conuers pag. 2. c. 10. num 29. Prateolus and Sanders for witnesses thereof whose ioy it hath been to finde out any thing were it neuer so vntrue which they might report opprobrious and disgracefull to them I doubt not but that the Waldenses and Albigenses might happily in some things be otherwise minded than we be and what are they in the church of Rome all in all things of one and the same minde but if wee respect the substance of their faith and doctrine as we may discerne the same not only by r Aeneas Sylu. de Origen Bohem cap. 35. Aeneas Syluius but also by ſ Alfons adu haeres passim Alfonsus De Castro and specially by t Sleidan Comment lib. 16.