table Iudas treason was as yet hidden there were no witnesses off it and therfore by no law off God either ciuill or ecclesiasticall could be proceaded against For the law off God in all ecclesiasticall and ciuill punishmentes requireth either confession by the partie off the faulte vvhiche is committed or els profe by witnesse He proceedeth saying that the Scribes and Pharises criminous c. are commaunded to be hard in the chaire c. Good lord be mercifull vnto vs whether vvill this man goo vvill he haue traitors vnto Christ sworne open and professed enemies vnto the gospel to haue charge in the church off God and not to be deposed for whether can these examples tend els our Sauiour Christ commaunded the people that they should be heard in that they said trewly owt off the law and that their faultes should not hinder theÌ„ to embrace that which they taught well What is that to our question this dothe aptely proue that the vertue off the worde dothe not depende vpon the worthynes off the minister and thetherto it is referred But to proue that they owght not haue bene deposed from theire ministerie there is not a word But why did our Sauiour Christ not depose them And vvhy did he vvill there doctrine agreable to the law to be receiued He deposed them not for that as he was the Minister off circumcision he coulde not hauing not to doo that wayes but vvithe those that vvoulde submit themselues to his doctrine And if he should haue giuen sentence off there deposition they vvould not haue obeied yt and he had not the svvorde to compell them This therfore remained for hym to doo that vvhen neither the people could shake off their yoke nor he displace them that as he had often giuen warning off their false doctrine so he should will them to take heede that neither the hatred off there euill liffe nor off their false doctrine driue them to mislike off that vvhich vvas well taught And iff this be a good reason to proue that those that be criminouse should not be deposed because our Sauiour Christ willed the people to heare c Then spirituall theues and murtherers corrupters off the law teachers off iustification by workes owght not to be put owt off the ministerie For those off vvhom our Sauiour Christ spake these thinges were suche And as for the wicked preachers in the church off Philippos fyrst yow are greatlie abused For althowghe he vvrite vnto the Philpiane yet these preachers he there speaketh off were in the church of Rome and not in the church of Philip. And theÌ„ if I should aske yow how yow know that he did not will their ministerie to be taken from them your owne mouth condeÌ„neth yow For by your rule it is presumption to speake any thinge that the holie gost hathe not expressed And it is not onelie not expressed but it can not be gathered For if yow thinke that therfore he willed them not to be deposed because he was gladd that Christ was preached by them yow deceiue your selfe For he saith if he vvere offered vp and should die for confirmatioÌ„ of his ministerie yet he vvould reioice in it and requireth the vvhole church to reioyce vvithe him for yt Would not therfore S. Paule haue escaped the TiraÌ„tes hand if he might lawfuly or owght not the church of Philippos to haue forbiddeÌ„ the puttinge to death off the Apostell yff they could haue done yt So that yow see a man maye reioyce at the fruite off an action that an other doeth which if it laie in him to let he owght not suffer to be done For when as of euill doinge maye come good as we owght to be sorie at the euill which is done so it is lawfull for vs to reioice of the good vvhich hathe followed that euill And this distinction off reioycinge S. Paul dothe include in these wordes in this vvhich he setteth downe to be in that Christ is preached As yff he would saye yt greueth me that the word is preached by suche men but yet I am glad that yt is preached And althowghe it be hard to knowe how they sought to add to S. Paules bandes yet if be trew that the greke Scoliast vvriteth that they did it to this ende that the persecutors seing the numbre off the professors of Christ might beinge more inflamed against S. Paul as one vvhich had sowen the first seed the rather hasten his death vvho seeth not that it had bene the churches parte at Rome to haue to the vttermost off their power endeuored to haue stopped the mouth off those preachers therfore I am well assured that yf the godlie off the church vvhich vvas at Rome could haue restreyned those preachers they vvould not haue suffred them to haue abused the gospell to his streighter imprisonment much lesse to the taking away off his life And therfore that they were not restreined proueth nothinge that they owght not by any meanes so to haue bene but rather argueth the fewnes of the church which fauoured sinceritie off the gospell that S. Paule preached which fewnes also appeareth in an other place The next reason is verie straunge that everie one which is a membre off the inuisible church should be a minister off the visible For by this meanes may be taken not onelie the most vnhablest in the church but those also which are not yet called to the church But your meaning is if he be off the church and other thinges correspondent yet one off those conditions is no where expressed and the other is almost thirtie lines before in an other sectioÌ„ aÌ„d in an other case so that it is daungerously spoken and may gyue very great occasion off offense And I leaue it to the consideratioÌ„ of the teâ—der how often yow haue quarreled vvhere there is nothing the like occasion as yow giue by this losenes I will also let goo your vnproper and vnwonted speach wherby yow make one and the same at one and the same tyme a membre off the visible and inuisible church For seinge the inuisible church vppon earth is off those onely which either are not called or lie hid aÌ„d vngathered vnto any knoweÌ„ felowship where the word of God is preached and the sacrameÌ„tes administred he which by repentaunce ioineth him selffe to the visible church off God can not be said to be a membre off the inuisible church For as when the triumphant church is opposed vnto the militante one man at one time can not be said to be a membre off bothe so here where yow oppose the visible and inuisible church it can not be that he that is said to be a membre off the one should be also a membre off the other But for answere I saie that if there were here any comparison at all yet it halteth downe right althowghe we owght charytably to thinke that he that hath giuen good tokens off repentance hath trewlie repented and therfore is
which sylence yff they were handled as they deserue were the fittest answer Howbeyt to shut vpp the mouthe off them which seeke occasion I answer that as the Ecclesiasticall censures shut not owte the ciuill punishementes nor hinder not in any parte their course so the ciuill punishementes can not displace the churche censures considering that as the one is occupied in the punishement off the bodie so the other is conuersant in the instructing off the conscience and we haue a manifeste example off the ioyning off them together in one and the same action in the scripture Where yt was ordeined that he that came not at the daie appointed should be punished by the losse off goodes which was meere ciuill and by separation from the congregation whiche was altogether Ecclesiasticall howbeit it shal be sufficient here to shewe that where as the answerer shoulde haue disputed againste this that the Ecclesiasticall censures together with the ciuille punishementes haue more force to resiste synne then the ciuill punishementes onely not being able to answer to the reason as thoughe his nose blead turnethe a syde and looking another way so reasonethe as if the questiō were whether the ciuill punishement were off greater strenght to holde owte sinne then the Ecclesiasticall which neither is nor shall be the question at this time yt is sufficient that they be bothe necessarie And whereas he asketh whether the magistrate hathe not power to correcte lying vncomely iesting cholericke speaking off which onely question he might seeme to haue some colour of occasion giuen by my wordes I answer that in saying that the magistrate doothe not cōmonly punishe them I neither saye that either he maie not or he will not as he doothe vntrewlie surmise but I had regarde vnto the estate bothe of our comon welthe and of all other which I knowe this daie where there are for the moste parte in thes cases no courtes or iudgemente seates which doo once take knowledge off thes causes it being also a common principell thar the lavve doothe not take care of smal things as it is alledged in one of the lawe cases which is reported in Kinge Henry the eight his yeares And in respecte that suche like matters are onely corrected by thes censures off the churche they are called off certeine consistorie matters And therfore I refuse not onelie the iudgement off the indifferent but off the moste enemy reader which hathe but a sparcke off equitie in him How vntrew it is that either we wringe the sword by thes wordes owte off the magistrates hande or suspende the drawing off yt in anie respecte vppon the pleasure off the eldershipp off the churche In the 9. section pag. 6. as thowghe the imperfection off the churche were not confessed off our partes he setteth him selfe to proue that men commit faultes as longe as they be in this liffe Secondly to proue that the churche florisheth with vs he alledgeth that the common wealthe florisheth wherunto forsomiche as it is with owt the compas off this treatise to medle with the recitall off the breaches off the common welthe and there are other proofes enowghe to conuince the deformities off the churche I will make no answer sauing that he muste vnderstande that in supposing diuers crackes in the common wealthe we are so farre from staining the carefull watche and painefulnes off the godlie magistrate as he surmiseth that his faithfull and godlie trauailes are rather herebie commended who in so sore a sicknes and amonges so manie partely vnfaithefull and partely vnskillfull physicions hathe hetherto kept liffe in yt In the 10. section pag. 6 where he saithe that the threatening off the Prophethe appertaineth to other realmes whiche refuse ād persequute the gospell and can not belonge vnto ours the discipline being as it is propounded and offred to be proued a parte off the gospell muste needes arme the lorde againste the refusers and so miche the more as it coming into the churche as into her home is therfore more dangerouslie reiected And where the answerer in wordes calleth for fruicte off the gospell In this enemitie which he hathe with the discipline off the churche pulling downe the hedge wherwith the lordes orchyarde shoulde be false from the inuasiō of hurtefull beastes he is as freendlie to the fruictes of the gospell as the Easte winde is to the fruites of the earthe For the Discipline off the churche being one off the moste excellentest meanes that the lorde hathe ordeined to cause the doctrine of the gospell to fructifie he is founde a nourice of that barennes againste which he exhorteth In the 11. section pag. 7. he hathe broken his bridell againe and in leuing the matter in hande he run̄eth to his olde accusations wherunto I haue not to answer That there ys no heade off the churche but onely Christ shall be shewed in the treatise off the Archebishopp into whiche question this falleth And leste nothing shoulde be saide for answer to that which I had set downe the glosse hathe here charged me that I make more off the gouernement then off the gospell whiche is a manifeste vntrewthe for I speake of the discipline as off a parte off the gospell and therfore neither vnder nor aboue the Gospell but the Gospell But the reason which he addeth is to be noted for saith he he likeneth the estate off the churche to the wandring in the wildernes Firste off all iff I did liken the estate off our churche now destitute off the discipline vnto the estate off the churche whiche was in the wildernes there is wherwithe that similitude is supported For as diuers lawes were giuen vnto the Iewes in Mounte Synay the practise wheroff they coulde not haue vntill they came into the lande off Canaan euen so the doctrine off the Gospell cannot haue the full practise vnles yt haue therunto ioyned the discipline But to cut off all occasion off cauilling iff I had not fallen vpon them that seeke yt I expressed wherin the bringīg in of the discipline shoulde haue bene like the cōduction of the people into Canaan not in that yt is ether better or not so good as the doctrine off the gospell but in this that as then the people had their full deliuerance when they came into that lande so we by this addition off Discipline to the doctrine off the gospell together with a whole and entier deliuerance owte off the thraldome off the popishe Aegyte might haue greater fredome in the citie off God whiche is his churche The other Cauill is off the same sorte For as I propounded the vpright kinges to be folowed in their whole and full reformacions so those which halted I set before to the intente they should be avoyded in that their reformaciōs were not throwghe and therfore where a reformacion is not full althowghe the wante be not in the same poincte in whiche they were behinde yet therin yt resembleth thē that as they so this is vnperfecte
obserued The first proposition is manifest considering that the statutes off the Apostels are the statutes off Christ the seconde is Augustines allowed off the D. and iff bothe these be true then the third must needes be This being thus gathered that which I added that therupō yt folowed that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scriptures is thus concluded That which doothe not conteine all the will off God necessarie for vs to doo conteineth no sufficiente doctrine vnto saluation but the scripture by Aug and the d. conteinethe not all the will off God necessary for vs to doo therfore the scripture by Aug. and the d conteineth no sufficient doctrine vnto saluation The first proposition is manifest in that S. Paul to deliuer him selffe from the gilte off bloude towards the Ephes alledgeth that he had taught them all the will off God the second foloweth off that which Aug. and the d. allowe for iff there be some thing commanded off the Apostells not conteined in the worde off God that being necessarie yt must folowe that some necessarie thing for vs to doo is not conteined in the worde And where the A. saithe that neither Aug. nor he say that any thinge not conteined in the scripture is so necessarie that it may not be altered vpon iust occasion by suche as haue autoritie he can not mocke the worlde after that sorte withe faste and loose at his pleasure For if they be statutes off the Apostels and commended vnto the churches what autoritie is there vppon earthe whiche can displace them which the apostels haue placed and iff it be madnes as he saith afterward owte off Augustin not to obserue them or once to reason off them how can they take order in them And this answer is ouerthrowne by the wordes off Augustin whiche folow immediatly But other things saith he vvhich are varied by regions as that some faste vpon the sabbothe daye some doo not c. are at libertie to bo obserued neither is there any better rule to a Christian man in thes then to do as the churche doothe vvhere he comethe Where it is manifest that he opposeth the tradition off the Apostels and ther statutes receiued by tradition vnto those thinges whiche are in the churches power to ordeine and to those wherin yt ys safe for vs to applie our selfes to the order off the churche They being therfore in this opposed the one beinge in the churches power the other are nor the one being of that sorte that off which side soeuer the churche determine off them a man may saflie obey the other muste needes be off that sorte that if the churche woulde otherwise ordeine of them then the Apostels that a man may not safely obey And in the nexte sentence the thinges which he opposethe those statutes off the Apostels vnto he calleth indifferent and therby giueth to vnderstande that he tooke them for vnindifferent and hitherto perteineth that he alledgeth owt off August in Zuinglius name and is found in his booke against the Donatistes where yt ys said that they are to be holden as giuen by Apostolicall autoritie Which is more then if he had said giuen by the Apostels considering that there are thinges giuen off the Apostels as counsailes and left at the churches order to chaunge vppon occasion as were the traditions which M. Caluin speaketh off but they were neuer left vnto the church with an Apostolical autoritie Which autoritie is off the higheste nature and proceding from the higheste court that can be And that this was Augustines meaning appeareth manifestly by the place which I alledged out of his booke againste the donatistes Where he saithe that all those thinges vvhich the churche houldeth generally are to be houlden as praeceptes off the Apostels althovvghe they be not vvriten wherunto he answereth nothing And by that place the folie off the answerer wherby he woulde tune Augustin by maister Caluins wreste is more plainly discouered For where he wolde haue vs thinke that August vnderstood those traditions onely which perteine to order and politie that may be varied and not vnto doctrine yt is manifest that Augustin in that place saithe that the Apostels gaue commaundement tovvching the not rebaptising off those vvhiche vvere baptized by Heretikes and that the custome of off the churche in not rebaptizing vvhich vvas obiected against Cyprian had the beginning off the Apostels tradition Nowe I would knowe off the answerer whether he dare saye that this iudgement off rebaptizing be off traditions which may be chaunged or whether there can be any iust cawse wherefore this may be altered And if he dare not saye this then let him confesse his faut and not seeke to make vp his breaches by sutche vntempered morter Where I saye that thereby there is a gate opened vnto the the Papistes to bring in vnder the colour off traditions all their beggery he answereth that the Papistes are rather confuted by this meanes considering that the Pope hath nether at all tymes nor in all places bene receiued Where to let pas that to helpe him selfe he addeth at all times which is not in Augustines rule he towcheth not the point off the cause For in that onely that it is saide that there be precepts off the Apostels vnto the church not cōteined in the word of God is pusshed at the strongest bulwarcke which the church hath to defend yt selfe against the Popishe beggerie and all other corruptions Which bullwarke is that whatsoeuer is commaunded of the Lorde vnto the church is conteined in the worde off god yff this be once shaken there is no sufficient resistance left vnto the church against this assaut For althoughe yt hath some great likelihood which hath bene generally and from the Apostels times receiued yet for somuche as yt is not vnpossible for the whole church to erre in some point and to haue taken vp or reteined off that which yt had before some thing not deliuered by the apostels it can be no sufficiēt bar to withstand the corruptions offred to be brought in by the Heretikes to saie that the church hath ether doon or not doon so and so sythēs the Apostels tymes And althoughe we might be assured that they are the precepts of the Apostels which haue bene so generally receyued yet the doore is not so close shut against corruptions as he pretendeth For this thing standing that there are cōmaundemēts giuen of the Apostels not cōteined in the word of god they may thrust in thinges which haue not had that generall and continuall obseruation For althowghe Aug. saie that they are the traditiōns of the Apostles which are generally receiued yet he dooth not saie that they onely are and the Heretikes whose corruptions should be repulsed in this respect that they haue not bene generally nor alwaies receiued might haue an easye replye that there is the same preiudice against certen off the commandementes off the Apostels committed to writing considering that
Thes differences woulde haue serued yow as well as those and possiblie yf they had taken yow in the heade yowe woulde neuer haue let them goe withowt giuing some tribute to the lengthening off your boke But in all this diuersitie yow recken vp there is a perpetual harmonie againste the election made by one bishope againste the ambition off the elder which thrusteth owte his fellowe elders against the church robbers especially which bende ther force to spoile the people of ther consente in election off their ministers Yf yowe had shewed any diuersitie in this yow mighte haue helped your cause somewhat To those which are bleare eide one light semeth two and ther fore to M. D. which hathe the eie sight off his minde scattered they seme to differ which agree well together I well remembred what I wrote and yt hathe not the weighte off a feether to ouertourne the election off the minister by the people For yt followethe not because one deacon is inferior to the pastor therfore the whole churche is inferior to ether the pastor or the deacon or the deacon may not chuse the pastor therfore the whole churche may not chuse him But this had bene wel concluded one deacon is inferior to the pastor therfore muche more one of the people ād one decon can not chuse a pastor therfore muche lesse one off the people Which mighte haue bene casely considered by proportion off the bodye which S. Paule dothe so often poincte owte the estate off the churche by For sett a parte the heade which is our sauiour Christe and ther is no one parte so noble or so necessarie but being compared together with all the partes off the bodie that are vnder yt it giueth place and is inferior vnto them And it may be shewed by example that they that in a societie be equall yea superior vnto any one in that societie are notwithstanding inferior to the whole Peter and Iohn were equall vnto any two in the whole colledge off the Apostels and yet they were inferiour to the whole companie off the Apostels For beinge sente off them they muste be inferiour to those that sente them and being Ambassadors from them they receiued commaundement Paul and Barnabas were by their dignitie off Apostleship superior to any whiche were in the churche off Antioche and inferior to the whole churche for the cause before alledged Furthermore wee doe not permit the choise off the pastor to the people onely but to the choise off the eldership so that althoughe the people alone shoulde not be superior vnto the pastor yet all together are which haue to doe in that election And althoughe thes thinges are so plaine that they coulde not lightly be hyddē from him that hathe but moued his lypp to the cuppe of sounde diuinitie yet maister D. standeth still amased merueiling as he that hauing stepte manie years whē he awaked thowghte al thinges straunge Thes are the knowē lawes of the howse where yow were borne where also yow vndertake professiō of Do. yt is a great fault that yow are a straūger at home The peoples examinatiō off their ministers especially standeth in their behauiour And seinge in the churche off God from him that cleaueth wood to her which grindethe in the mill ther is none so ignorant but knowe and can giue reason off principall poinctes off the Christian religion the Elders which be the flowre off the church can much lesse be so ignorant as yowe make them Naashe the Amonyte meaning to dishonour the people off God thowghte yt reproche enoughe to the Gilcades yf he mighte haue put owte their right eies and althowghe a barbarous and cruell enemie off the people off God yet woulde haue satisfied him selfe with that but yow are not cōtente with that onles yow put owte bothe their eies and leaue them as blinde and ignorant bussardes Thes reproches off ignorance so oftētimes caste vpon the people off God are not spoken with the toūge off Canaan but is the proper dialecte off the Papistes and yt is reprochefull not vnto men but vnto the sonne off God whose bodie the churche is and whereoff he is the heade The prophet speaking off churches which should be gathered vnder the gospell saithe that the earthe shall be full of the knowledge off God as the waters vvhich couer the sea the accomplishment wheroff maie appeare in all places where there is any teaching minister which dothe the office of a faithfull pastor I coulde a great deale easelier beare the reproches which you vtter againste me but vvhen I heare yow thus raile vppon the lordes hoste so indefinitely speakīge of the churches of God yow are vntollerable yet if I shoulde speake againste this as oft as yow giue occasion I shoulde neuer haue doone And if nether yow vvill ceasse this language nor those that shoulde looke vnto yt vvill stope this incircumcised mouthe I vvill commit the cause vnto the lorde and vvaite for his iudgement Off the meanes of an exacte examination off the habilitie off the pastor with owte the helpe off the lorde bishoppe is spoken in an other place vvhere shall be examined vvhat the D. hath to saie It hathe appeared howe vntrwe yt is that the Deacō is superior or hathe moe giftes thē the reste of the bodie of the churche And besides that yt shall appeare in place a moste absurde sayinge that the deacon is aboue that elder which I meane for I meane the same vvhich S. Paule meaneth ther was no occasion at all here to speake off the superioritie off a deacon vnto a senior For ether he owghte to proue a deacon aboue a pastor or els he hathe saide nothinge to that vvhiche is in question In the 308 page the Bishoppe is auowed to be a Pastor here he is Superior to a Pastor and therfore no Pastor for there can be no comparison but betwene twoo thinges at the leste ād yt is very strange that a man shoulde be higher then him selffe So that to defend these bishops and Archebishops the Ans hath neede haue a newe grammer and a newe logicke for they transcende and goe beionde all the rules that euer yet vvere hearde of I knowe what is vsed with vs but is that a sufficient answer is this yowr defense off the booke I proue him to be deacō and yow can not denie it therupō I cōclude that he is inferior to the pastor and yow saie I knowe an archdeacon withe vs maie be minister off the worde But the Question is not vvhat he is but what he maie be by the vvorde off God for yow owghte to haue shewed that a man may haue the order off pastor and deacon at once For yf he be but a deacon and no pastor then beinge inferior to the Pastor he owghte not by him selfe alone iudge of the sufficiencie off a Pastor yf he be bothe a Deacon and a pastor at once then in steade off ministers yow bringe monsters
constrained by corruption off tymes maie departe from the Apostolicall election shuttinge owt the people but I denie that that is warranted by substantial argumentes Beside I haue shewed that heere in wordes against vs in his reasons he stādeth for vs Which shall beste be vnsterstanded in that the D. being not hable to lyfte the whole hath mangled them and snatched here and there a worde if peraduenture vntwisted he might deale with them which otherwise he coulde not breake For where I cited owt off Musculus that yt is a boundage vnto the church to haue their minister thruste vppon yt vvithovvt choise off the people he answereth that subiection to magistrates is no bondage wherin he toucheth nether heauen nor earth For he should haue answered as vnto Musculus and not as vnto me considering that I alledged that owt off him off vvhome he hath taken all his reasons And therfore the note off Anabaptisme which he markethe all those vvith that saie yt is bondage vnto the churche to haue their pastor thrust vppon them lighteth vppon Musculus vvhich thus speaketh and affirmeth yt constantly Then his answer is abegging off that in question when he saith that subiection in lawfull matters is no bondage yt being in question vvhether yt be lawfull for the magistrate to take awaie the election from the church To that also owt of Musculus that the minister chosen by the church maie rule vvith a good cōscience and the people obey vnto him easelier then vvhen he cometh in againste their will and thervppon concluded that forasmuche as that manner of election is to be followed vvhich maketh moste to assure the mynisters cōscience of his calling and that the people should be more obedient vnto his doctrine therfore that onely vvas to be holden his answer is that he maie be assured otherwise and that the people otherwise will obey which if yt were true as yt is not is not sufficient for that he is not so easelie assured nor they so easely obey And vvhere as he saith that he which is assured off an inward calling need not to doubte of his owtward yow should vnderstand that the assurāce of the inward calling depēdeth a great parte of the owtward for allbeyt the sprite of God worketh that assurance yet he worketh by the owtward means of the iudgemēt of the elders ād off the church touching his aptnes for the ministrie whileste he considereth that that calling is not the calling off men but off God throwgh the ministerie of men Nether is there any one excepe those vvhich are called extraordinaryly vvhich can haue assurance off any inward calling but by the means off owtwarde For if he were assured that God had called him without the calling off men he owght to obey his voice althowgh men would not call him So that this not distinction but seperation off the knowledge off an inward calling from the owtward is not onely absurde but confirmeth the Anabaptistes which boste off an inward calling where no calling off the church wente before That he addeth yf yt be according to the forme of that church where he is called is but a begging off the question For it being in question whether euery calling that any church vseth be lawfull and seing the minister can not be assured off his owtward calling oneles yt be lawfull it followeth that he vvhich presumeth one must needes presume the other Vppon Musculus saying that the thrustinge off the minister vppon the church vvithout her election dravveth bondage c. and the D affirming that suche elections are meet for the church vnder the christian Magistrate I concluded that therby great iniurie was doone to the Christian Magistrate giuen off God not onely to preserue but to encrease the churches libertie To all vvhich firste the D. answereth that he giueth nothing to the magistrate but which belongeth vnto him and that yt is the magistrates right to vse that kinde of appoincting off ministers which he thincketh good which is a grosse begging off that in controuersie Secondly he saith that the pastors had neuer better cause to obey their pastors neuer les cause to complaine off bondage and cōstraint then nowe when the pastors are chosen without the consente off the churches which as it is barely saied hath no reason to leane vppon is confuted by common sense so it is directly contrarie to that Musculus his author affirmeth in the wordes before alledged Onely for the matter off libertie he alledgeth that the true libertie of the church consisteth in libertie of cōscience and freedome from false doctrine wherunto I answer that it consisteth in them but not onely for to vse assemblies for the ministring of the worde and Sacramētes c. is a libertie of the church And they are not myne but Musc wordes which calleth the election by the church a libertie and the other a bondage of the church I imagine not the corrupt estate to be in the lawes and goūernment off the Christian magistrate but contrariwise giue that vertue to his godly gouernment that the estate off religion maie be easelie pure with him vvhich can be hardly or not without great daunger pure without him Yow if not in wordes yet in deede make the gouernment off the christian magistrate alwaies fraught with dronkardes Idolaters whoremōgers Atheistes c. which was not so before he entred which is nothing els then to make him Lorde of misrule and in steed of a noursing father a fosterer of synne which is the iniurie I complaine off Where yow saie that it is commendation vnto the magistrate to correcte such disordered persons yow saie well but smally to the pourpose smally to your aduantage For if the church hath by benefite of the Christian magistrat besides her owne censures his helpe off ciuill punishmentes for repressing synne she hauing better meanes to weed oute the wicked thē be fore maie be more easely discharged of those vnprofitable burdens I haue not therfore trāsferred the faultes off men vnto the gouernement but yow haue laied to my charge that which your felfe faulte in and I before confuted The forme off election in the Apostles tyme is not chaunged by the magistrates confirmacion For beside that that is properly no parte off the election but a thing vvhich followeth yt this right off confirmacion of elections was in the Apostles times And althoughe the practise was not generall yet there being euen in in their times some Christian magistrates as appeareth by that which hath bene spoken there can be small doubte but this forme off election had in certeine places euen during the Apostles times his approbation If it had not yet the forme theroff is no more changed therby then the forme of preaching and administring the Sacramentes when the magistrate did not allowe of them differeth from that which is nowe when he mainteineth them so appeareth that the magistrates cōfirmatiō standeth without breache of the Apostical forme of electiō which he denieth Thes
vvhich vvere sanctified to that vse although others vvere as apt to doo the vvorcke as they I concluded that homilies c. not sanctified of the Lord to that pourpose ovvght to be kept ovvt he answereth that similitudes be no sufficient proofe and that the Lord did not commaund that nothing should be red in the church but canonicall scripture not remembring that it is the holy ghostes which teacheth that the tabernacle with the vessels were made according to the patron off the church now The which in the holy trumpetes is more clearly seen considering that the holy gost commaunding them to be blowen by the priestes alone and comparing the publicke teaching with the sound off them doth not obscurely declare that they were shadowes therof Therfore as the trumpetâ— were sancrified to the temple by the commaundement off God so to make Homilies holy in Gods principall and publicke seruice the like autoritie is required Where I shew that nether homilies nor Apocrypha are to be compared in goodneâ— in themselues nor in fruict tovvard the hearer vvith the scripture and reading theroff wherin the D. laboured not but â—oâ—â—ered against the Adm. he answereth that nothing can therby be concluded against homilies which may not be against sermons and other interpretations and rather against sermons then homilies which is detestable For therby he affirmeth that homilies are both better in them selues and red more fruictfull to the hearers then the word off God preached Wherin he controileth also the order off our church which will haue homilies gyue place â—f there be any to preach For confutacion wheroff I send the reader to that before disputed â–ª for if the word preached be more fruictfull then the word yt selff red then reading off homilies inferior in fruict to the reading of scriptures by the D. confession heere must be muche more inferior to the word preached His reason is for I make no make no other difference betwixt homilies and sermons but that one is pronounced within booke the other not so Belike homilies and sermons are equall in all other thinges yet homilies excell sermons in that they are red in the booke the other is doon by liuely voice But is there no difference at all but this first â—et hâ—m vnderstand that sermons in the churche are expresly commaunded off the Lord are such as are necessary for all churches and which no one can want As for homilies if they were in this dearth off preaching graunted conuenient for our church yet haue they no commaundement wherby they are made necessary and such as the church is bound vnto they also are such as ether all or the most florishing churches haue not In which difference there is as great a goulf between them as is betwen heauen and earth I speake off them now as if they were conueniently ordeined For although in such case during the conuenience they ought to be kept as profitable orders off the church yt thes chaungeable constitutions compared with the eternall sawe off God are infinitely inferior so it is vtterly false which he saith afterward all kinde off publishing the doctrine in scripture haue necessary vses in the church Wherby he maketh thinges necessary to saluaceoÌ„ nether expressed nor necessarily concluded of the scripture and condeÌ„neth in this behalf all churches which ether haue bene or are not receiuing the vse off homilies Thus one 's the singular fruict off preaching the word is manifest to be so much greater then homilies reading as the meanes ordeined off the lord is more fruictful then that off men Secondly if they were conuenient yet they might both be made and publickely red withowt any of those ordinary ministeries which the lord hath appointed in his word for a priuate maÌ„ may write them as he may doo a commentary and if a minister make them yet he doth nor that by bond off his ministery for then he should leaue a part off it vndoon which wrote not homilies and hauing doon all other partes should be gilty off the not fulfilling off it for omitting this seing therfore there is no commaunded ministery off God required nether in making nor reading of them and sermoÌ„s can not be made withowt there is heere an other singular difference lifting vp preaching with the fruict theroff so far aboue homilies red â–ª as the Lordes autorised Embassadour with his broad seale and letters patentes is aboue him in whom no such markes appeare withowt whose ministery when as I haue shewed faith can not be engendred nor men ordinarily saued there being plentifull saluacioÌ„ withowt homilies reading as appeareth both otherwise and by other churches where they are not the difference of preaching with the fruict theroff is incomparably more then that by homilies reading The third difference is that where sermons are applied to the present circumstance which by chaunge off times budding off new vices rising of errors c. vary almost euery day this kinde off interpretation as that which is starcke and annuÌ„med can not poursue them for where the preacher with his sermon is able according to the manifold windinges and turninges of sinne to winde and turne in with yt to th end he may stricke it the homilies are not able to turne nether off the right hand nor off the left but to what quarter soeuer the enemies are retyred yt must keepe the traine wherin it was set off the maker And if it were possible which is not to make homilies against all diseases off vices and errors and that were also graunted that the reading ministers could both discerne the sickenes and apply the medicine laied vp in the homily which requireth the skill off a learned man yet as no physicion how cunning soeuer can so well prescribe at ones and in grosse against a disease as he that vpon euery step yt maketh giueth counseill and applieth his medicine so no homily maker be he neuer so great a diuine can at ones and before hand prescribe so apt and stroÌ„g remedies against sinne as he that doth yt vpon the present occasion Homilies then not able to comme to the vices further then vices coÌ„me to them their vse for this and other cawses aforesaied is priuate For a maÌ„ feeling him self assaulted in any wise and knowing a treatise arming him against that assault may for his vse be profitably occupied in it I leaue the difference in giftes instrumentall causes off sermons and homilies when as beside the giftes required in homilies ether reading or making there are in sermons required the gift off vtterance and memory I passe also that the D. in saying there is no difference between an homily red and a sermon preached but that the one is pronounced within booke the other not so maketh no differeÌ„ce between hym that writeth his sermon and readeth it and him that readeth an other manÌ„es not able to make one him self this shall be sufficlent to haue shewed that absurdity Where also goe to the ground other
cōmen wealthes and in the superiority which he hath ouer kinges and iudges he hath no superior but immediate autoritie vvith his father Therfore the mouldinge vpp off the two estates and gouernementes together is to lay the foundations off many errors Last of all admitting this distinctiō how cometh yt to passe that this poincte of his that there are manie archbishops in the owtward regiment off the church being that which is denied is lefte vvithowt any assistance off reason out off the scripture Here remaineth onely to proue the title Head off the church to belonge onely to our Sauiour Christe I muste therfore desyre the reader to tourne vnto the 6. diuis pag. 181. where the D. confesseth as much as I that Christe is onely the head of the church If Christe be onely head then that I set downe that the cyuill magistrate is head of the cōmonwealthe and not of the church standeth But if the magistrate be head off the church then Christe is not onelie Howbeit hauing for feare off the owtcry off all made a litle curtesie vnto the truthe he forth with lifteth vp his heele againste it and will haue the ciuill magistrate head also off the church wherupon muste followe infynite absurdities firste the doctrine off the Apostle is by this means cleane ouerthrowē which sheweth that this tytle Head of the church was gyuen to our Sau. Christe to lifte him aboue all powres rules and domyons ether in heauen or earth Where if this title belonge also vnto the cyuill magistrate then yt ys manifeste that there is a powre in earth vvherunto our Sauiour Christe is not in this pointe superior And by the same reason that he maie gyue the cyuill magistrate this title he maye gyue him also that he ys the fyrste begotten of all creatures the fyrste begotten off the dead yea the redemer of his people which he gouerneth For these all are a like gyuen vnto hym as dignities wherby he ys lyfted vp aboue all creatures And beside that the whole argumente off the Apostle in both places lead to shewe that this tytle Head off the church can not be saide of any creature yt ys confirmed by the demonstratiue article wherwith the Hebrewes esyecially whom Saint Paul folowed vse to tie that vvhich is verified off one vnto hym selfe alone For he saith he is the head as if he should saie he and none other is the heade of the church Againe if the church be the bodie of Christe ād of the cyuill magistrate yt shall haue two heades which being monsterous is to the great dishonor off Christe and his church So also shoulde come to passe that the church hauing the magistrate for head is accōplished and made a perfecte man without Christe so that the knittinge of our Sauiour Christe should not be an accomplishmente off that which lacked but an addition off that which is to much And if the churche be planted in a popular estate then forsomuch as all gouerne in commen and all haue autoritie all shall be head there and no body at all vvhich is another monster Now yf vve consider the cawses why our Sauiour Christe ys called the head of his church which are that as the head is the higheste parte in a man aboue which ther is none allwaies ioyned with the body so he ys the cheifest and highest in his churche inseperably knitte with yt and that as the head gyueth sense and mouing vnto all the bodye so he quickneth and to gether with vnderstanding of heauenly thinges gyueth strenght to walke therin I say when thes be the causes yt ys manifeste thes thinges nor no one off them ether agreing or hauing any possibilitie to agree with any creature in heauen or earth ether towards the whole church or towardes any partycular assembly that the name off the Head of the church can not be without great violence gyuen vnto any symple creature And yff yt be saied that the cyuill magistrate is a subordinate and mynisteriall head off the church as the magistrate beinge head off the commen wealthe hath other which maye be called vnder heades beneath hym he muste vnderstand that those heades are appoincted becawse the cheife magistrate can not be presente with the whole body off his people nor in his owne person performe the office of a head vnto them all But forasmuche as Christe is neuer seuered from his body nor from any parte off yt and is able and doth performe that wherfore he is called head vnto all his churche yt owghte not to seme strange that there may be a subordinate head in the commen wealth where there can be none in the church And as yt hath certaine grounde in the scripture that this tytle of head of the church is to highe to be gyuen vnto any man so hath yt bene confirmed from time to tyme by writers both olde and newe which haue had the honor off Christe in any conuenient estimation Let vs therfore see vvhether this ialousie ouer the title of head of the church not onely in respecte off the whole but in respecte also off a particular congregation haue their approbation Cyprian saith there is but one head off the church The bishop off Salsburie affirmeth the same Augustine proueth that the minister which baptiseth can not be the head off him which is baptized because Christe is the head off the vvhole church And in another place that Paule coulde not be head of the churches which he planted becawse Christe is head off the vvhole body which reason should be nothing worthe if ether Saint Paule or any other minister mighte be a ministery all head off the church vnder Christe And if the name of ministeriall head off the churches which Paule planted can not be gyuen vnto him which was a gouernour nexte and immediatly vnder Christe in that same kinde off gouernment in the which our Sauiour Christe is head that is to say spirituall no not then when there was no Christian magistrate to make chalenge vnto that title and to bring yt into dowbte whether yt belonged vnto S. Paule or to him yt can not be that the magistrate may take vnto him that title whose gouernmente doth not approche so nere vnto our Sauiour Christes as he is head off the church And as they haue taken awaye this tytle from the ministers ouer their flockes so haue they from Emperours and princes in regard off their subiectes Ambrose saith yt ys the greatest honor the Emperour can haue to be called sonne off the church and in the same Epistle a good Emperour is vvithin not aboue the chutch Caluin teacheth that there is but one onely head of the church vvhich is Christe that the name doth onely agree to him that in that name he can haue no substitute vpon earth Where yf yt be saide that he mente that off the Pope ouer all churches althowgh the disputation be directed againste the Pope yet his reasons are
officers bringe singular fruict vnto the commeÌ„ wealth For whilest they conquere by the word riote adultry couetousnes pride idlenes c. wherby diseases beggery translations off inheritance from the right heires needles dearthes seditions rebellions whereoff euery one is an engin able to pull downe the commen wealth they may be well called the horse and chariot of the coÌ„men wealth But yet as the pastors can not therfore be saied officers of the commeÌ„ wealth no more can the magistrate which by vertwe of his ciuill office giueth singular assistance vnto the churche be called properly the churche officer Yf as I see it like some to call magistrates a kind of officers in the churche because they being members by publike calling procure the quiet theroff they which are disposed may so speak I will not striue But why I esteme the title off head of the church not to agree vnto any simple creature etherin heauen or earth I haue shewed my reasons let the church Iudge The questioÌ„ is not whether the name of Archbishop is but whether it owght to be coÌ„tinued and if the coÌ„tinuance of it in our church draw such credit the putting downe of it in all other churches throwghowt ChristeÌ„dome must needes bring great preiudice But it is lawfull therin is the question Which althowgh he hath ofteÌ„ affirmed yet we are come to an end of the decisioÌ„ of this question by the scriptures and no word browght to confirme it Wherin ether he is litle beholding to his cawse which will minister him nothing to say or his cawse to him which leaueth it thus destitute For althowgh the reasons against yt should be insufficieÌ„t yet if he would haue this title continew in the church he should haue by shewing the lawfullnes of it owt of the word both perswaded those which haue an euill opinion of it and confirmed them which wauer For the sixt diuis let the Iudgement be the readers Before I come vnto the 7. I will for the cause alledged in the beginning off this treatise take in here the residue off the 20. off S. Math. Yowr transâ—ation the kinges off the Gentils wherby yow would prone that he putteth not a difference betwene the cyuil and ecclesiasticall power is faulty as that which withowt necessity goeth from the proper signification off the word For it signifieth naturally not the Gentils but symply any nation in which signification yt is taken oft in the ould and new testament and not onely when the Israelites are ioyned together with other nations but euen when the holy gost speaketh of the Iewes a part he calleth them by the same word here vsed Therfore it appeareth that there is nether any such meaning of the EuaÌ„gelistes and if there were yet he gaineth nothing For it is easy to answer that he therfore maketh mention off the Princes off the Gentils forasmuch as there was no King nor soueraigne ciuill principality amongest the Iewes Wheruppon our Sauiour was coÌ„pelled to take example off princely autority from the Gentils And if there were any small fragments of cyuill gouernement in the Iewes handes yt was the high priestes and other ecclesiasticall persons Which beside that yt was bastard and degenerate from the institution off God it was both more ambitiously sowght as may appeare by the ecclesiasticall stories and more tyranically administred as appeareth in scriptures then any the most disordered gouernement amongest the Heathen So that if our Sauiour would haue set forth a patron off ambition and tyranny in gouernment he needed not haue sowght it amongest the Gentils when he had it at home Yt may be saied further that he taking his example off the cyuill dominion off the Gentills would therby pull owt off the peoples heades that fond opinion amongest them and the rest off Iewes that they at the comming off the Messias should be Emperours off all the world and all the Gentills be their subiectes Especially considering this petition off the sonnes off Zebedy was grounded off that idlephansie And if neede required it were not hard to bring examples off diuers Kinges and principall magistrates amongest the Gentils which both came vnto their gouernement modestly and vsed yt with all equitie and commoditie off the subiectes as off the contrary part diuers off the Kinges amongest the Iewes whose entry hath not bene so honest nor gouernement so easy vpon which consyderations it may appeare that there was an other reason off making mention of the Gentils Math. 6. then in this place Last off all there is nothing answered to the example off our Sauiour Christ which doth manifestly ouethrow the D. interpretatioÌ„ For wheÌ„ as it is certeine that examples are browght to explane the rules which goe before and in the example our Sauiour Christ opposeth mynistring vnto others to this to be ministred vnto by others it must needes follow that the place which went before must be vnderstanded simply of domynion and not tyrannicall domynion for if the example had bene sitting vnto M. D. meaning he should haue saied as I came not tirannically to be ministred vnto or ambitiously to desyre it but modestly to rule The distinction also of the Magistrate and off the minister wherin the weight of this cawse lieth is not towched This diuision off domynion is altogether idle for it is plaine that when I say the cyuill Magistrate is seuered by bearing domynion from the ecclesiasticall person I ment lawfull and when as I deny that the ecclesiasticall person can exercise any domynion at all what place is there left to this diuision for what dominion soeuer he had proued to haue bene lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person had bene suffycient ouerthrow of that I set downe And as the diuision is superfluous so yt is vnskilfull For the two first partes the rule with oppression and the rule described 1. Sam. 8. be all one and the last member comprehendeth all that goe before And so it is not onely no good diuision but no diuision aâ— all Nether is he any happier in applying off it for where my second proposition was that the ecclesiasticall person is seuered from the cyuill by bearing domynion he saith that is true in the two fyrste significations Wherby muste follow that ether yt is lawfull for the cyuill magistrate to rule with oppression or els for the Bishop For if it be lawfull for nether of them theÌ„ one is not seuered from the other in those kindes off domynion The last section off the 62. page c. perteining altogether vnto the question off Bishopes bearing cyuill offices I will put ouer vnto the proper place Here the question is onely what belongeth to the mynister in respect off his ecclesiasticall ministery The autoritie off man in Gods cawse weigheth no further then weight is giuen by reason Therfore yow should not preiudice the exposition of this place by Bucers Iudgement especially coÌ„sidering it hath counterpois of other as learned Howbeit although
how this vvill agree vvith that here in the tenth and 13. diuis I haue shewed that it is one thing to be conteined an other to be expressed in scripture Therfore if yowr cawse haue no better hould then that it must goe to the ground I haue shewed how this answer of leauing thinges to the order off the church varied by circumstance c. can not stand in the Archbishops case nor ordinary gouernement of the church The argument is not off lykes or payres but of the smaller vnto the great And although it should be true that yow say that the Lord loued the church then aswell as he doth now yet the reason is still of the les vnto the great For yf he did so particularly describe the offices not of such excellencie and vveight as the offices and mynisteries of the gospell yt must follow that he hath much more vsed that dyligence in particular description of the mynisteries hereof If the 4. off Iohn meane that our Sauiour should tell all thinges necessary to saluation then the Mynisterie vvith the degrees theroff being necessary and vvithowt the vvhich the Lord doth not ordinarily gyue any saluacion at all yt is cleare that he hath also declared all degrees thereoff That owt off Sainct Iohn 20. is spoken of the miracles our Sauiour did not off his doctrine and is thrust in by strong handes in this place The cheif amongest the rest off the Mynisters I might well with S. Paul call the pillers and therfore if the Lord should haue made no mention off the Archbishops they keping suche a place as they doo yt is truly saide that the pillers should haue bene forgotten Yf the Magistrate were an officer of the church and not of the commen wealth there are many places in scripture both ould and new that describe his office ād all that perteineth to him at large Wherof if the Ans can bring but one for his Archbishop this controuersie is at an end Here be many we knowes wherof some are not indebate and those vvhich be haue no causes annexed vvith them vvherby other might come to knowledge off them as vvell as he Yt is therfore enough to haue mentioned mine answer vvithout staying in confutation of all those thinges vvhich he at all aduentures throweth owt to make vp an answer He saith it is daungerous to say that the ministeries owght not to be reteined withowt which the church is fully builded becawse the Magistrate is therby shut forth as well as the Archbishop Our questiō is what ecclesiasticall ministeries are sufficient the mention therfore off the ciuil Magistrate is absurd Also it is too great ether ouersight or peruersenes not to vnderstand that an vniuersall rule is not to be racked to euery thing but is true off those thinges vvheroff it is gyuen Beside that hereby at vnawares he confesseth that the church may be fully builded and accomplished withowt a Christian Magistrate which is against that he saith the magistrate is the head of the church His exception that there is no perfection off vnitie off the church by reason off good and bad mingled first is nothing to this question secondly yt is a quarell not against me but S Paul vvhose wordes I vsed Thirdly as the ministeries off the vvord are saide to saue and bring vs to the kingdome off heauen becawse they gyue both entrance and aduancement therunto although vve come not to full possession off them so long as we being in this life need them still so they are vvell saied to bring vs to perfectiō of vnitie because hauing begun to knit vs together here they follow still vvith new increases vntill vve come to perfection in the life to come As for that there must be offices as well to preserue and kepe the perfection off vnitie as to build yt and bring it therunto beside that for shift off answer he is driuen as yt were with one breath to affirme that he denied before off the perfection of vnitie he must vnderstand that the church is alwaies in building as long at it is here vpon earth and alwaies in knitting Therfore if those offices be sufficent to build and knit they are perfectly sufficient and if tharchbishops office be to kepe the church builded and knit yt is manifest vve may spare him here and that his seruice must then begin when all other ministries take end The next diuis hath for answer according to the D. coustome onely that which I preuēting answered afterwad sauing that he addeth as an exceptiō that there be Apostles which there reckened are notwithstanding by vs shut owt from the present estate off this church as yf he vnderstood not that in the founding of the church thes may be necessarie which afterward are not which also being intreated off in an other place needeth not here to be repeated Yt is Calu. which reasoneth of the place of the Ephesiās that forsomuch as the Apostle saith that the church is fully builded withowt a Pope therfore there owght to be no Pope and how slenderly soeuer he seemeth to the Ans to haue reasoned yet shall yt appeare by the vanitie of his exceptiōs against it cōming afterward to be discussed that yt is weighty But where he saith albeit the argumēt be good against the Pope yet yt ys not so against the archbishop onles he can exempt hym by miracle or teach vs some other Logick then hath hitherto bene heard off the reason includeth him as well as the Pope For if it be graunted that the Popes office is therfore vnprofitable to the church becawse S. Paul made no mention off it in the ministeries requisite for the building theroff there being like wise no mention off the office off an Archbishop yt must theruppon follow that tharchbishop also is vnprofitable yf there be the same cawse there must follow the same effect The reason added off the Pope doing thinges which tharchbishop doth not claiming thinges which tharchbishop claimeth not c. hath no place at all for the question is not off the abuse and tyrannie off the Pope but whether as it is vnprofitable that one should gouerne all the churches in the world so yt be also that he should gouerne all in a whole prouince And by the D. answer the office off Pastors should be vnlawfull if they chalenge vnto them selues thinges vnlawfull and the Popes office good and lawfull if he bearing rule ouer all churches would absteine from those and such like chalenges which the Ans setteth downe The contrary wheroff is true For as the Pastors office can by no owtrage of him that exerciseth it be made vnlawfull so the vsage of dominion off one ouer all be yt neuer so moderate and qualified can neuer be lawfull Last of all the Archbishop him self if he should chalenge those thinges in his prouince which the Pope chalengeth ouer the world should be by this reason as vnlawfull an officer as the Pope
set downe off the Ans He saith it is a poore refuge to discredite the autor I spared the autor casting part of the error vpoÌ„ the times wherin he liued which I proued corrupter and further from the truth left by thapostles by a reason which he could not so much as wrangle with althowgh as towching the proofe off an archbishop or bishop suche as ours I am content the Ans set vp his credit as much as he will. He saith there is no difference betwene Cyprians bisbop and Ieromes Seing he will needes haue it so let one measure be off both and therby I trust shall appeare off that which I haue spoken before that Ieromes bishop is lower by heade and shoulders then they for whom his autoritie is houlden owt Howbeit if in Cyprians time the bishop onely had not the laying on of handes and ordeining him that was chosen to the ministrie by the church but the Elders and he did nothing in his church or parish but vvith aduise of the Elders theroff yt appeareth that Ieromes bishop althowgh differing onely from an other minister in ordeining Elders and Deacons had somwhat encroched vpon the boundes off the presbitery more then Cyprians Lastly he saith for the corruption off times this kinde of bishop was deuised I willingly giue testimonie vnto those gouernours or at least the most off them that they had a good meaning in that inuention off man but that it was remedy against the corruptions I deny And to the reasons before alledged for proofe therof let this be added that euen from the first day wherin this deuise was established the corruption in the church was not deminished but grew and got strenght by litle vntill the whole face of the earth was couered and the power off darcknes in the fulnes off Antichristes kingdome wholy setled Likewise that the first resistance by any setled church against that corruption was by those which abolished that deuise off man and receiued the order in the Apostels times towching the equalitie off ministers As the Bohemians Merindoles the churches in Germany and Geneua whose standerd bearers as partly hath appeareth and more hereafter shall fowght against this stately dominion both of bishops and archbishops The next diuis I leaue to the readers iudgement referring him to that answered in the beginning In the next as one whose forehead is more hard then Adamant he shameth not still to affirme that this manner off bishop and archbishop was in the Apostles time notwithstanding the autor owt off whom he draweth his proofes confesseth that at the first there was no difference betwene a bishop and an Elder and that after it was decreed that in euery church one onely should haue the name of bishop Yf it were the first institution that they shoulde be one and the first institution be the Apostels institution it was the Apostels institution that they shoulde be all one yf the Apostels did reuoke this institution off theirs shewe their handes bringe forthe their euidence Ierome prouethe by diuers testimonies off scripture that a bishop and elder were one according to S. Paul. Therfore if the D. auoide this autoritie he must shewe vs the Apostels autoritie in writing for herin yt is trwe that the lawe saith matter of vvriting and recorde can not be auoided but by that of as high a nature He gathereth that this order of bishops and archbis was in thapostles times because there were schismes then I haue by this reason proued in an other place that thâ—â—e were no archbishops where if he had any thinge he should haue spoken And how is he bewitched which seeth not the wordes of his autor For when Ierome saith this came by custome he euidently declareth that â—â— was not by determinacion of the Apostels The same declareth Augustin when he saith the office of a bishop vvas greater then off an other mynister as tovvching the names off honor throvvghe a custome off the churche vvhich novve hathe gotteÌ„ the vpper hand Likewise when Ierome saithe this preferment of the bishop is not by any necessitie of lavve but for that yt vvas graunted to honor him vvithall yt ys manifeste that yt was not by the Apostlels determinacion For yf yt had bene their institution yt had bene necessarie After admitting yt was after the Apostels he procedeth to answer Tertullian which saithe that ys true vvhich is first that ys false vvhich is later But how cometh yt to passe that he anwereth not that alledged owte off our Sauiour Christes e wordes which calleth the Pharisies vnto the firste institution that was belike to harde for him to byte vpon And the answer vnto Tertullian is absurde For he bringeth him in reasoning as he vseth that is prouing the thinge in controuersie by that a like doubtefull For if the rule of Tertullian extende yt selfe no further then vnto thinges he there speaketh of and in debate his reason is no reason but a giddie turne aboute wherin altowghe greate paines be taken yet there is no grownde gotten Wheras Tertullian proue the that Praxeas iudgement of our Sau. Christe was therfore naught because yt was new aÌ„d new because yt was not agreing with that gyuen by the scripture Moreouer his answer to the place presumeth that the gouernement off the churche is not a matter off faithe and saluacion which is the question And as for his Phantasies he resembleth my reason with they haue nothing like For beside that there were Christian magistrates baptisinges in churches coÌ„munion ministred vnto more then 12 â–ª in thapostels times and off their alowance the Apostels neuer tawght that there should be no ChristiaÌ„ magistrates no baptisinges hut in riuers no eating off thinges strangled c. the contrary off all which they plainly taught ordeining onely that the Gentils should support the Iewes in strangled thinges abut they rawght that a bishop and traching elder be all one and neuer alowed that one Pastor shoulde take the name off a bishop from all his fellows within 40. myles compas The testimonie owt off Tertull maketh way for Montanus heresie wherof I haue spoken beforé Vnto the nexte diuis he answereth not For yt being plaine that the Apostels tawght that a bishop and elder were all one because he had nothinge to answer he leueth that and runnethe backe to that handled in the beginning off the equalitie off ministers As for the testimonie owte of Zuinglius firste yt is vntrw that the Anabaptistes obiecte this place againste Zuinglius which I haue pressed him with secondly yt is vntrue that they obiected vnto him in the like case which wee doo for in all their controuersies with him they haue not one of those pointes now debated And where he saith Tertullians wordes serue not because thes degrees are not againste the truth let him denie if he dare that this is the truth off God that a Bishop and an other minister off the word be all
whom there is any light off iudgement would say it is matter off storie vvhether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest is remedie againste heresie or no I◠perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme and place as is set downe by Ierome likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace and none off thes is denied but whether this cawse were well assigned and whether this supposed to preserue peace banished godly peace is the question If this be a matter off storie storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with after in Iustines testimonie where likewise I denie no part off his storie Yf this be to discredite men to say their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further then yt hath vveight ether off scripture or some reason grovvnded theroff then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time For by thes weightes I haue esteemed the best But I leaue to be cōsidered what a popish tyrānie he goeth abowt to bring into the church which lifteth the credit of any be he neuer so godly ād learned aboue that which I haue here alledged Where he saith I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger when all is doon at the pleasure off one as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other yt is but a vaine shifting hole For althowgh thes wordes at the Pleasure and lust off one be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise and I willingly confesse I vsed them becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie seldome or neuer deserueth better yet my wordes following declare that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically and many moderatly For supposing that both the Archbishop and those which gouerne in commen be godly and catholike I affirme that he being one is sooner drawen into error then many sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie In answer wherof and reasons wherwith this is confirmed the D. falleth flatly into that wherewith he chargeth me For in steed that he should haue marched many godly and learned ministers with one he matcheth him with the multitude and commē sort and in steed off comparing one ruling by law with many gouerning by the same he compareth him with a lawles companie and in steed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the same kinde he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead with much fennish and muddy Which what leaden answers they be let the reader iudge For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in a man may proue it better to haue but one eye then two becawse some see better with one then other some with both His answer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace that we haue the true doctrine and right administration of Sacramentes c. and therfore no contention is to be moued is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether For the question is not of the estate off our church but off all generally nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine c. but by what way yt ys best kept His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes is more fond For I shewing by yt that contētion is better then wicked peace he answereth the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies As if the fire off the truth which I spake off and so called off our Sauiour can consume any thing but straw stuble c. or the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth allthowgh by contention or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorāce ād errors are like an haircloth which is the time I spake of And where hauing shewed that tharchbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth I admit by way off disputation that he vvere the fittest adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it this in commoditie ovvght to driue vs to some other gouernement he answereth a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes Where first I refer the reader to that before that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement an other of the commēt wealth which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted Secondly the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the cōmen wealth so extreme wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it and consequently off the church But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder there is nothing but destruction and ruine withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth as a church tyrant vnto the truth there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth then in the church as that which can not stray so far as the other from the end wherunto it was ordeined Moreouer the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned is for that it is one off those gouernementes which God hath established and allowed by his word But the Archbishoprick to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God yt is sufficient in this consideration that yt hath no allowance off the same For therupon foloweth that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued can not destroie the lawfull vse off them yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off mē may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters be worthely reiected So yt may be seen that althowghe the Ans would make one case off a Magistrate and archbishop yet there is as far distance betwene them as betwene heauen and earth Yt resteth to shewe that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces Againste vvhich the Ans alledgeth firste the testymonies off Cyprian and Ierome Wherin besyde that I haue shewed that they helpe him not yt is before declared that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all nor Ieromes the ordination excepted but by common consent off all the elders Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops
allegde Iacobs tvvo vviues to proue he might haue as many as he liste should ansvver that althovvgh he might haue tvvo yet yt folovveth not that he may haue as many as he liste proueth that one may ouerthrow one vnlawfull thing by an other withowt teaching ether off them lawfull which the D. calling yt a ieste answereth not And yet yt ys manifest that thes he his reasons both here and there which may in deede worthely be iested at albeit there is no worde in the example I browght that carieth the countenance off a ieste Vnto that I browght of greater necessitie off vnitie in the vvhole church then in ane Prouince there is nothing answered here he saith I am greatly deceiued considering that the Pope claimeth his temporalities by Constantine and his supremacie by Peter If he listed he might haue vnderstanded that diuers Papistes which handle that matter off supremacie alledge Constantines donacion for his temporalities onely I said not that the Pope maketh his claime onely by Constantine Althowgh yt may be shewed that Sozimus who yow say claimed the supremacie ouer all the church made his claime not by Peter nor by any autoritie off scripture but by the Councell off Nice confirmed by the Emperour Constantine Where he saith my supposition touching one Caesar ouer all the realmes which haue churches is but supposed I meruaile that he is ignorant that Constantine in the ende off his reigne had the Empire whole in his handes and that all the churches had rest vnder him that the Emperour off Rome is called lorde off all the earth Lord off all the vvorlde So that if he would haue appointed one bishop ouer all prouinces vnder him the bishop of his appointement should haue had more then double the iurisdiction that the Pope euer had when his kingdome was largeste the Pope him selfe making no further claime then ouer the churches which bare the name off Christe as Pighius him selfe confesseth Wherupon foloweth that his answer often alledged to put a difference betwene the archbishop and Pope the one taketh it to him selfe the other hath yt of the gifte of the Prince is not worthe a strawe Where I shew that the sufficientest mynister finding enovvghe to doo in one onely congregacion no man can be hable to vvelde the gouernement off all the churches in a Prouince he answereth that lacke off will or skill of some busie Pastors to dispatch controuersies which them selues be autors off letteth not but that bishops and archbish may be sufficient for their charges I make my argument off all and he answereth off some I of the moste fyt and sufficient pastors and he off vnfit If he haue any better answer wee will attend after yt if not then the archbishop is here againe taken by defaulte And when ether he must needes let his Archbishop fall to the ground or els denie that men off greatest giftes haue found enowgh to doe in the gouernement of one congregacion being both vnwilling to graunte the one and ashamed to denie the other yt is manifest he crept into this corner When I shew that as the patrons off the Archb. may alledge the supplie off Archdeacons Chauncelors c. in their absence so the popes aduocates may pretende his deputacion off Cardinalls c. he answereth that the office off bishop and Archbishop may be well excuted so farre as yt is conuenient for the estate of the church which ys that in question Where lykewise otherwhere I alledged to this pourpose that his bishop and Archbishop hauing their charge assigned by him the same vvith a commen pastor the gouernement onely excepted are therby bounde to pastorall preaching and ministring off sacramentes in all the parishes off their iurisdiction vvhich is impossible he staggereth to and fro saying the bishop hath to procure his diocese ys muche as in him lieth wheras he is charged for laying hand to more then he can gripe He addeth according to the lawes of the churche he is afraied to say off god that they preach where and when they see yt moste conuenient by that rule neuer also and no where yf in their sighte yt be conueniēt That yt foloweth not because the archbishop is bound to minister the word and Sacramentes therfore he muste doo yt in all the parishes of his prouince which followeth well For the bishop appointed by the holy ghoste is commaunded to feed the whole flocke committed vnto him euen with the same feading Saincte Paule fedd the Ephesians that is with preaching so plentifully that all might vnderstand the whole will off god Wheruppon followeth that his charge is not to feede where and when he seeth good but to feed and that to sufficiencie all the people off his charge as he that shall answer for the bloude off all which perish for wante of sufficient instructiō by his mouth And if there be as he saith the same deutie off the Archbishop towardes his charge as off the bishop towardes his the same foloweth in him for the charge off his Prouince being a lyke committed vnto him by the same reason he is bounde to preach in one parte he is bounde in all if not in all in none Now to returne where he saith preaching ordeining mynisters and suppressing herysies is not committed vnto the Archdeacon Chauncelor c. but such as by rules off the church are permitted them firste yt is his continuall faulte that he should proue by the lawe off God he proueth by the lawes of our church yea and by those which remained off the estate which was in poperie I mighte much better alledge the lawes off the reformed churches which haue abolished them And if he wil againste the reasons browghte oppose autoritie and binding me for my proofes within the compas off the worde off God vvander him selfe in the broade feilde off mens lawes in question yt is time to shuite vp the disputation which is mainteined by such grosse begginge Secondly how will he proue that he may sett ouer his charge vnto an other or that yt ys more lawfull to committ other thinges perteining vnto his office then those which he reserueth vnto him selfe Or if he may commit yt whether he may commit yt to tharchdeacon so farre vnder degree of the mynisterie off the Archbishop to whome those thinges belong or to Chauncelors c. which haue no entrance into the ministerie by any ecclesiasticall institution all which are shewed vnlawful in the booke of discipline lately set forth And why may not the Pope cōmmunicate his charge with his Cardinales as well as the archbishop with his Suffraganes c If he can shew no word why he may doo it but it be onely vpon constitution off the church that he casteth the ouerplus off his bourdē vpō the neck of his Chancelour c by the same reason the vniuersall bishop may discharge him self vpon his deputies Where he saith the vniuersall bishop can not ordeine
nedes be affirmed to apperteine vnto the elder neither doth Epiphanius answer the reason owt off S Paule that Timothe was ordeined by imposition off handes off the companie off elders Likewise that browght off a bishop aboue an elder because S. Paule vvilleth Timothe not to rebuke an elder to let goo other faultes as many as are wordes in the sentence yt is absurde that he referreth that vnto an elder by office which is spoken of an elder by yeares and referreth that to the publicke minister which is vnderstanded onely off a priuate membre off the churche as appeareth manifestly by the opposition off a yong man and after off the elder woman So I leaue to be estemed what good cause the D. hath to couer his face in that wheroff he so greatly vaunteth The next diuision is answered In the next I leaue it to the reader whether the D. order hath the heeles vpward which after endeuoure to shew the necessitie the causes yea the examples off a thinge setteth him selfe to proue that it was Althowgh if this be his trim order he hath kept it euill for Chrysostome browght for confirmacion off the first comethe after Ierome which is browght to beare vp his seconde That Ignatius bishop was but off one particular congregation onely I haue shewed and therfore the wordes ouer all pressed off the D. as they are off Pigghius from whence this was taken are vnderstanded of those within his particular churche Besides the kinde of speach may be easelier drawen vnto the whole worlde then off a diocese or prouince for the reason assigned in my former booke That the bishop owght to be aboue the elders which onelie gouerned and deacons is confessed yf he were aboue the teaching elders that was by custome whether good or bad let it be iudged off that said Howbeit that that be graunted yt maketh nothing to proue a bishop ouer a diocese muche lesse an Archbishop When the bishop in euerie church or to speake as the D. in euerie diocese was the Cheife aboue whom there coulde not by this Ignatius be any higher bishop in earthe I leaue yt to the readers iudgement how absurde the D. is who saith that Ignatius dothe not ouerthrow his Archishop for therby he affirmeth that albeit the bishop off the Diocese were the highest bishop that coulde be vpon earthe yet there might be an other higher then he Also how fonde he is in his reason that for as muche as an archbishop is a bishop therfore Ignatius allowing one allowethe the other When yt is manifest by his owne confession that Ignatius speaketh off one onely sort off bishops either of one particular church as the trwthe is or off one diocese as he imagineth So that his argument is Ignatius allowethe one sort off bishops therfore the Archbishop all one as if a man should say he hath a kinde off fishe in his moate therfore a whale fishe The D. detected in that Iustins president was neither bishop off diocese nor Archbishop off Prouince but of one congregation for excuse saith he browght the place to proue there might be superioritie ouer the ministers Where first his trim order that all my logicke and Rhetoricke is not able to moue is too pitifull for how childishe is yt after so long trauaile to proue a bishop ouer the ministers off a diocese and tharchbishop of a Prouince in the ende to endeuour to proue that ther may be superioritie as if any man would denie this that graunted the other and yt is to set the fondacion vpon the louer yet I would know off him what meanethe the word this wherby appeareth not onelie that he browght yt to proue superioritie but the superioritie either off a bishop ouer a whole diocese or an Archbishop ouer a Prouince considering that this is the superiority which he speake of before and im̄ediatelie after Secondly where I bothe by the vse of the scriptures and auncient writers shewed the word Brethren not taken for the gouernours but the people obserue how vainly he answerth that Iustine meant the ministers and deacons by brethren because he calleth the people after by the name off people As if the rest off the church were not called both in scripture ād other writers by diuerse names Thirdly how if it be graunted that Iustins presidēt had superioritie ouer the minister yet how fondly yt is concluded that yt is lawfull because yt was Then how his weapons fetched from Maister Beza haue alwaies their edge towarde him and his cause For he alledgeth him to proue that Iustins president did gouerne the reste and had the name off bishop which in the same place flatly condemneth that pollicie as is declared Lastly how by this answer he maketh euerie pastor off a congregacion to handle the gouernemen which before he tooke from him when he shutteth him vp in the administracion of the word and samentes only Iustines writinges compared as I compared them with the holie scripture are as I said a ditche I added the reason that ther was in them not a litle mudd off errors which the D. could not answer otherwise I acknowledge him both godlie and learned Maister Beza sought not the word president in Iustine but sheweth how Timothe did the office at Ephesus which Iustines president did which was meete considering he had a higher ministerie then any there So that althowgh Timothe aboue the degree off a bishop kept that presidentship continually during his abode yet there was no reason that one Pastor off the same degree with other should take that vpon him Yf he were the true Ignatius he should in dede be before Iustin but to let passe other exceptions withe M. Caluins sharpe censure off him yt is absurde to ascribe to Ignatius S Iohns scholer that vaine boaste off being able to expound the orders off Angells their varieties the distinctions and differēces betwene vertues powers Thrones c. That priest is no fit name for a minister off the gospell is towched after that the names proper to our S. Christ can be cōmunicated with man is absurd and before confuted where also the name off Prince a peace off Prince off Priestes is shewed vnfit fer the ministery That there may be one Archbishop ouer bishops as there is one bishop ouer pastors hathe no parte trw as hathe bene shewed onely let yt be noted that the reason here for the Archbishop is Hardinges for the Pope This argument browght before and after to proue our Archbishops iurisdiction that one had care of the whole Prouince here is pursued wherunto I answer here that care dothe not necessarily draw iurisdiction or rule ouer that cared for seing that there is no minister I might haue said also no magistrate yea no priuate membre which owght not to haue and shew forthe a care off all the churches which are in Christendome euery one according to the meanes which