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earth_n	church_n	invisible_a	visible_a	3,670	5	9.2967	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A16571	All the examinacions of the constante martir of God M. Iohn Bradforde before the Lorde Chauncellour, B. of Winchester the B. of London, [and] other co[m]missioners: whervnto ar annexed, his priuate talk [and] conflictes in prison after his condemnacion, with the Archbishop of york, the B. of Chichester, Alfonsus, and King Philips confessour, two Spanishe freers, and sundry others. With his modest learned and godly answeres. Anno. Domini 1561	Bradford, John, 1510?-1555.	1561 (1561)	STC 3477; ESTC S116578	60,488	240

writtynge his aunsweres he began to tell me how what he had done for Grymbolde howe that I neade not to feare anye reproche or slander I shoulde sustaine belike meanīg to haue me secretly to haue come to them as Grymbold dyd for he subscribed And therefore I speake on this sorte vnto hym Maister Deane quod I I wold gladly that you should not conceaue of me that I passe of shame of men simplye in this matter I rather would haue you to thincke of me as the verye truth is that hitherto as I haue seene nor heard nothinge to infirme my faith againste transubstātiaciō so I am no lesse setled in it then I was at my comminge hyther I loue quod I to be plaine with you to tell you at the first that you shall finde at the last In good fayth Maister Bradforde quod he I loue you the better for your plainnesse do not thincke otherwise of me quod he but that you shall find me plaine in al my talke with you Here he began to aske me of my imprisonment and condempnacion So I began told hym how I had ben hādled wheare at the semed to wounder yea in playne wordes he saide I had ben handled otherwise then I had gyuen cause so showed me howe that my Lorde of Bath reported that I had deserued a benefite at the Queenes hande and at all the Counsels In this kind of talke we spent an houre almost and so as one wery I did arise vp ▪ and he called in the keper and before hym bad me be of good comforte and to bee out of all peril of death Mary sir quoth the keper but it is in euery mās mouth that hee shal dye to morowe Whereat he semed some thyng halfe amased and sayde hee woulde goe before euensong before the Queene and speake to her on my behalfe And I thynke the Queene hadde almoste supped at that presente for it was paste sixe of the clocke Before the keper I tolde hym againe that styll I was the same manne I was at the firste and til I should see matter to touch conscience to the contrary must nedes so continewe The keper desyred me to hearken to mayster Doctours counsayle and prayed M. Doctor to bee good vnto me And so after we hade dronke together maister Doctor with most gentle woordes tooke his leaue for three dayes Nowe when he was gone the keper tolde me how that mayster Doctor spake opēly how that he sawe no cause why thei should burne me Whiche sentence for the ambiguitie of the meaning made me sorye leste I had behaued my selfe in any thinge wherin he gathered anye conformablenesse to them in their doctrine which god knoweth I neuer as yet dyd so God oure father blesse vs as hys chyldren for euer and keepe vs from all euyll for euer Amen Vpon the fifth daye of Apryll came maister Doctor Westō to the coūter aboute .2 of the clocke in the after noone who excused hymselfe for beyng so long absent partely by sickenes partely for that Doctor Pendleton tolde hym that hee woulde come vnto me and partely for that quoth he I withstoode certaine Monckes which would haue come agayne into Westminster After whiche talke he told me howe that the Pope was dead and then he tolde me how he had spoken to the Queene for me and how that death was not nere vnto me Laste of all he excused himselfe for not aunswering myne argumentes against transubstanciacion because my commynge to daye quoth he was more by fortune then of purpose I woulde gladlye quoth I omittyng all other talkes haue seen an aunswer to my argumentes Why quoth he you haue remembered some thynge what I spake to you whē I was last with you No sir quoth I I neuer called them in maner to mynde sythen that tyme as well because I hoped you would haue writtē them as also for that they semed not to bee so materiall In good faith ꝙ he I cannot see any other or better waye for you then for to submit youre self to the iudgement of the Churche ▪ Marye so I wyll sir quoth I yf so be by the churche you vnderstand Christes church Lo quoth he you take vpon you to iudge the church No sir quoth I that doe I not in takyng vpon me to discerne I do not iudge the church yes that you do quoth he and make inuisible I dooe neyther quoth I. Why sayth he who can see youre churche Those sir quoth I that haue spiritual eyes wherewith they mighte haue dyscerned Christes visible conuersacion heare vpō earth Nay quoth he Christes churche hath thre tokens that all men may looke well vpon namely vnitie antiquitye and consent These thre quoth I may be as well in euil as in good as well in synne as in vertue as well in the deuyls churche as in Gods churche As for ensaumple quoth I Idolatrie amongest the Israelites had al those thre Chrisostome telleth plainly as you wel knowe saide I that the church is well knowen Tantummodo per scripturas alonely bi the scriptures In good faithe ꝙ hee you make your churche inuisible when you wyll haue it knowen alonelye by the scriptures No sir quoth I the scriptures dooe playnely set furth to vs the churche that all menne maye well ynough thereby know her yf thei list to loke The church ꝙ hee is like a Towre or towne vppon a Hyll that al men may se True sir quoth I al men that be not blynde Visible ynough is the churche but menues blindnes is great Impute not therefore to the churche that whiche is to bee imputed to mens blindenes Where quoth he was your church forty yeares agoe or where is it nowe excepte in a corner of Germanye Forsooth sir quoth I the churche of Christ is dispersed and not tied to this or that place but to y e word of god so that where it is there is Gods churche yf it bee truelye taught Loe ꝙ hee is not thys to make the church inuisible Poi●n me out a realme a hundreth yeres paste whiche mayntayned youre doctryne Syr quoth I yf you wyl or woulde well marke the state of the church before Christes commynge with it now as saint Paule and Peter wylleth vs I thynke you woulde not looke for suche shewes of the churche to be made as to poynte it oute by realmes You knowe quoth I that in Helyas time both in Israel and els where Gods churche was not poyntable and therefore cryed he oute that he was lefte alone No marye quoth he dyd not God say that there was .7000 whyche hadde not bowed theyr knees to Baale Loe sayeth he 7000. shewe me seuen thousande a hundreth yeares agoo of your religion Syr quoth I these .7000 were not knowen to men for then Helias woulde not haue sayde that hee hadde bene before left alone And thys is playne ynough by that whiche the texte hathe namelye that God sayeth Reliqui I haue reserued to me .7000 Marke that it sayeth God had reserued to hym selfe to hys own knowledge as I doubt not but the hundreth yeares agoe God hadde hys 7000. in hys proper places thoughe menne knewe not thereof Well maister Bradforde sayeth hee I wyll not make youre case woorse then for transubstanciacion all thoughe I knowe that we agree not in Other matters And I praye you quoth he make you it youre selfe not woorse If I canne dooe you good I wyll hurte you I wyll not I am no Prynce and therefore I cannot promyse lyfe excepte you wyll submytte youre self to the diffinicion of y e church Syr quoth I so that you wyll defyne me your churche that vnder it you brynge not in a false churche you shall not see but that we shal soune bee at a poynt In good fayth maister Bradford quoth hee I see no good wyl be doone and therefore I wyl wishe you as muche good as I can and hereafter I will perchaunce come or sende to you agayne and so he sent for maister Weale and departed Nowe after his departynge commeth the keper maister Claydon and Stephen Beiche and they were verye hotte with me and spake vnto me in suche sorte that I should not loke but to haue thē vtter enemies vnto me notwithstandyyng the frendeshippe they both haue hitherto pretended God bee wyth vs what matter is it who bee agaynste vs. Finis ¶ Imprinted at London in Fleetstrete at the Signe of y e Faucon by William Griffith and are to be sold at the litle shop in saincte Dunstones churchyard Anno .1561 The .xiii. daie of Maye Cori. 10. Mat. 10 Mat. 7. Mat. ● Mat ● Ioh. 5. Luk. 23 1. Io. Virgi● A prayer ●f M. ●rad●ords 2. Pet. ●

haue it To those quoth he we maye thincke perchaunce some mercie God will shew yea quoth I. those infants whose parentes doo contēpne baptisme wil not I contempne vtterlye because the childe shall not beare the fathers offence Well quoth he we agree that by baptisme then we are broughte and as one would say begotten of christ for christe is oure father and the churche his spouse is our mother as al men naturallie haue Adam for their father and eue for theyr mother so all spirituall men haue Christ for their father the churche for their mother whiche churche As Eue was taken out of Adams side so was she of Christes side where out flowed bloud for satisfaction purging of our sinnes Al this is true quoth I and godlye spoken Nowe then quoth he tel me whether this churche of Christe hathe not ben alwayies yes quoth I sithen the creacion of man and shalbe for euer Verie good quoth he But yet tel me wether this churche is not a visible Chusche or no yes quoth I that it is howbeit none otherwyse visible then Christe was here on earthe That is no exterior pompe or shewe setteth her forth commonlye And therfore to see her we muste put on such eyes as good men put one to see and knowe Christe when he walked here one earthe For as Eue was of the same substaunce Adam was of so is the churche of the same substaunce Christe is of I meane fleshe of fleshe and bone of hys bones as Paule sayeth Ephe. 5. Looke therefore howe Christe was visible knowen to be Christe when he was on earthe that is by considering him after the word of God so is the church knowen I do not come to reason saith he at this present therfore I wil go on forward Is not this a multitude yes ꝙ I that it is Howbeit quod la●et anguis in herba You meane a sutteltie in y e worde what visible multitude was ther in Helias tyme or when Moyses was on the mounte Aaron and al Israel worshipping the calfe you goo from the matterr quoth he No nothinge at all said I. For I doo but preuent you knowynge wel where aboute you go therfore fewer wordes might serue if that you so would Well quoth he I perceaue you haue knowledge and by a litle perceaue the more Tell me yet more whether this multitude haue not the ministerie or preaching of gods word Here syr quoth I you go aboute the bushe If you vnderstande preaching for confessing the gospel I wil go with you or els yf you wil you may know that persecution often letteth preachinge ▪ Wel I meane it so quoth he Tel me yet more hath it not the sacramentes quoth I howbeit the mynisterie therof is often letted But I wil put you of your purpose because I see where about you goo If heretickes haue baptized and doo baptize as they did in sainct Cyprians time you knowe thys baptisme is baptisme and not to be reiterated This I speake that the staunders by might see that thoughe the poptshe church haue baptisme whiche we receaue of them yet therefore is it not the true churche nor neuer neade we to be baptized again which thing he sawe well ynoughe and therfore he said I went frō the matter addynge that I had more errors then one or two So ye say quoth I but that is not ynough till you proue them Well quoth he this churche is a multitude hath the preaching of the gospell and the ministracion of the sacramentes and yet more hath it not the power of iurisdiction Oh sir quoth I whether goo you you walke not wililey ynough you cā not deceaue me I thancke god what iurisdictiō is exercised in time of ꝑsecutiō ī afflictiō I meane quoth he by iurisdiction admonishing one an other and so forthe well go to said I what then It hathe also quoth he succession of Byshoppes And here he made muche adoo to proue that this was an essenciall point you saye true quoth I. For if this poīt fale you all the church you go about to set forthe will fall downe you shal not fynd in all the scripture this is essentiall pointe of succession of Byshoppes quoth I. In Christes churche Antechrist will sitt And Peter telleth vs as it wente in the olde churche afore Christes comming so will it be in the newe churche sithen Christes comming That is as their were false Prophetes suche as bare rule were aduersaries to the true Prophetes so shal there be sithen Christes comming false teachers euen as of such as be byshoppes and beare rule amonges the people you alwayes goo out of the matter quoth he But I wil ꝓue saeth he the succession of Byshoppes Doo so quoth I. Tel me quoth he were not the Apostles byshoppes No quoth I excepte you will make a newe definition of Bishoppes that is giue no certein place In dede sayth he the Apostles office was more thē byshopes for it was vniuersal But yet Christe instituted Byshoppes in his Churche as Paule saith he hathe gyuen Pastours Prophetes so that I troue it be proued by the scriptures the succession of byshoppe to be an essentiall pointe To this I aunswered that the ministerie of godes word and ministers is an essenciall pointe but to translate this to byshoppes and their successiō quoth I is a plaine subtiltie And therfore quoth I that it may be playne I wyll aske you a question Tell me whether the scripture knowe anye difference betwene byshoppes and ministers whiche you call pristes No saithe he well then goo on forwardes quoth I and lette vs see what you shall get nowe by the succes●ion of Byshoppes that is of ministres whiche can not be vnderstande of such Byshoppes as minister not but Lorde it I perceaue quoth he that you are fare oute of the waye For your doctrine you can neuer showe this a multitude whiche ministrethe goddes woorde and his Sacramentes whiche hath iurisdiction and succession of Byshoppes to haue from tyme to time beleued as you beleue beginning nowe so go vpwards as I wil do quod he of our doctrine And therefore you are out of the Church and so maye not be saued Perchaunce you wil bring me downewardes a shew to bleare the peoples eyes but to goo vpwardes that can you neuer doo And this is the true triall To this I aunswered that he ought to giue me leaue to followe the scripture and examples of good men Then said yea Wel then quoth I Stephē was accused and cōdempned as I am that he taught newe and false doctrine before the fathers of the churche then as they were taken Now what doth Stephen for his purgacion but improued theire accusacions But how doth he it by goinge vpwardes No but by goinge downewardes Beginning at Abraham and cōtinuing stil till Esaias time and the peoples captiuitie From whence he maketh a great leape vntill that tyme he was in whiche was I thincke vpon a foure