by God therefore wee saye there are so manie heades of Churches as there are gouernours of countreys So that you sée the magistrate to be the head and chief gouernour of a particular church in this respect that it is a visible societie and must haue besides the spirituall an externall gouernment also whereof bicause the ciuill Magistrate is the head and chief therefore it can not be therin established without the ciuil magistrate Your spare speches for the authoritie of the Magistrate in the gouernment of the Church I will note in a seuerall place by themselues and therfore doe I the lyghtlyer passe them ouer in this place In the meane tyme this is no good argument to saye that the Magistrate is but a member of the Churche therefore he is not the heade and chiefe gouernoure thereof in earth for the head though it be the chiefe yet is it a parte of the bodie But you still confounde the visible and inuisible Churche of Christe the spirituall and externall gouernment of the same which confusion maye make you seeme to say something to suche as doe not diligently consider it when in very déede you say nothing to the ouerthrowe of any thing that I haue answered The Churche may be established without the magistrate touching true faith and the spirituall gouernment of it by Christe in the hearte and conscience of man How y t church may be established without a Magistrate but not touching the visible societie and the externall gouernment Upon this confusion also is that grounded whiche followeth that the Churche in the respect of Christ the head is a Monarchie c. For when I sayde that the state of the Churche was popular in the Apostles tyme I spake of the outward forme shewe and gouernment of it which therefore I call popular bycause the Churche it selfe that is the whole multitude had interest almost in euery thing especially whylest the Churche yet remained at Ierusalem I knowe that all these thrée kyndes of gouernmentes maye bée mixte together after dyuers sortes but yet the state of gouernment is named according to that whiche moste ruleth and beareth the greatest sway as when matters are moste commonly gouerned by the consent of the more parte of the people the state is called popular when by diuers of the best and wysest it is called optimorum status when by one it is called a Monarchie as in thys Realme in the Courte of Parliamente althoughe all the states be represented yet bycause the iudgemente confirmation and determination resteth in the Prince therefore the state is neyther Aristocratie nor Democratie but a Monarchie Euen so in the Apostles time especiallye as I haue sayde whylest the Churche remayned at Hierusalem thoughe they myghte be counted Optimates yet bycause moste thyngs in gouernmente were doone by the consente of the people therefore the state for that tyme was popular You saye that I shoulde haue shewed howe thys difference of hauyng a Christian Magistrate and hauyng none oughte to bryng in a diuersitie in the choyse of the Pastor by the churches I haue shewed you before the reasons of it And nowe I adde this that for as muche as the Magistrate is the chiefe and principall Gouernoure of the Churches vnder Christe and oughte to haue a speciall care and regarde to and for the same It is not méete that anye thyng touching the gouernmente of the Churches or any publyke function perteyning therevnto shoulde bée otherwyse doone than he shall thynke conuenient and profitable for the present state of it And therefore well sayeth M. Musculus in his common places titu de verbi ministris Musculus It is not conueniente that those thinges whyche are publikely to bee doone or which concerne the people subiecte vnto them or to bee shorte are suche as concerne Religion and in that respecte perteyne vnto them excepte wee will saye with the fantasticall Anabaptistes that Christians may not bee Magistrates should be done without the consent and knowledge of the ciuile Magistrate And againe wherefore for the condition of tyme necessitie required that the Magistrates and Princes by the meanes of a fewe men which were of excellent iudgement and had a care that the Church of Christ should be prouided for might herevnto be induced that they might appoint faithfull and learned Pastours ouer their subiects And titulo de magistratibus speaking of the Ciuil magistrate he sayth Firste that he shoulde place ministers of Churches where they are wanting whether he chooseth them himselfe or confirmeth them whiche are chosen of others by his commaundement For it is not conuenient that any man should take vpon him anye publike offices in the Church without the authoritie of the publike magistrate But you will saye it was otherwise in the primitiue Churches in whiche the prelates of the Churches were chosen of the ministers and the people I answere Suche was then the state of the Churches that the ministers were not otherwise to be chosen bicause they had not a Christian magistrate if you call backe the manners of those tymes first call backe the conditions and state of them also The Prince hath to sée that all thyngs be doone in the Churche orderly and profitably and therfore hath he the altering and changing of suche elections Your offering of an hundreth differences betwene a persecuted Churche and that whiche is in peace shall goe with that bragge whiche you vsed Fol. 22. where you offered twentie to one c. But to what purpose make you this offer the more differences there are betwéene them the more is my cause iustifyed But you will be bolde to shewe meehow that if it were lawfull to breake the order of God c. and I will also be as bolde to answere your reasons seuerally Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 1. In the tyme of persecution a churche chooseth an vnlearned minister or one that is wicked in lyfe howesoeuer it be he is vnfit the Churches rounde aboute by their ministers or Elders admonishe this churche of her faulte and moue to correcte it the Churche will not by no meanes be admonished what can now the other churches doe in the tyme of persecution if they excommunicate the whole churche it is a harde matter and yet if they maye doe that there is all they can doe the euill is not remedied which may be easily taken away where there is a godly Magistrate and the Churche as is before sayd compelled to a better choyse So you see that there are * This is but one and yet none in deede for the case you put is verie vnlikely se the tyme you speake of inconueniences in the choosing of the Pastor and other the gouernours of the churche by the churche in the tyme of persecution which are not in the tyme of peace vnder a christian Magistrate Io. Whitgifte This is your only reason to proue that in a Churche persecuted it is méeter for the
And it is absurde to say that the Ministers nowe with the helpe of the Magistate can laye surer foundations of the churche or builde more cunningly or substancially than the Apostles could which were the maister builders of the church of God and as for the consūmation of the body of the church and the beautie of it seyng it consisteth in Iesus Christ which is the head that is alwayes ioyned vnseparably in all times of the crosse and not the crosse wyth his body which is the church I can not see why the churches vnder persecution should not be established hauing both the foundation and the nethermost partes as also the toppe hyghest parte of the churche as well as those which haue a christian Magistrate If in deede the Magistrate whom God haue sanctified to be a ourse vnto his churche were also the head of the same then the churche coulde not be established without the Magistrate but we learne that althoughe the godly (a) The Magistrat is head of the common wealth and but a mēber of the Church by T. C. his iudgement Magistrate be the head of the common wealthe and a great ornament vnto the churche yet he is but a member of the same The churche may be established without the Magistrate and so that all the worlde and all the deuils of hell can not shake it but it can not be in quiet in peace and in outwarde suretie without a godly Magistrate And therefore the churche in that respect and suche lyke prayseth God and prayeth for the Magistrate by the which it enioyeth so singular benefites Therevpon you conclude that the churche was then popular whiche is as vntrue as the former parte For the churche is gouerned wyth that kynde of gouernment which the Philosophers that wryte of the beste common wealthes affirme to be the best For in respecte of Christe the head it is a Monarchie and in respecte of the auncientes and pastoures that gouerne in common and wyth like authoritie amongst them selues it is an Aristocratie or the rule of the beste menne ▪ and in respecte that the people are not secluded but haue theyr interest in Churche matters it is a Democratie or a popular estate An image whereof appeareth also is the pollicie of this realme for as in respecte of the Queene hir Maiestie it is a Monarchie so in respect of the most honourable Councell it is an Aristocratie and hauyng regarde to the Parliament whiche is assembled of all estates it is a Democratie But you shoulde haue shewed howe thys difference of hauing a Christian Magistrate and hauing none oughte to bryng in a diuersitie in the choyse of the Pastor by theyr churche it were not harde if one woulde spende his tyme so vnprofitably to fynde out an hundred differences betweene a persecuted Churche and that whiche is in peace but seeyng you can shewe me no reason why the Churche maye not choose her ministers as well vnder a godlie magistrate as vnder a tyrant I wyll be bold to shewe you howe that if it were lawefull to breake the order of God it were meeter in the tyme of persecution that the election shoulde be in some others discreate and learned persons handes to bee made without the consente of the churche than in that tyme when there is a godlie magistrate and that it is then most conuenient to be chosen by the churche Io. Whitgifte There was then no Churche established in any Ciuill gouernment bycause How the Church was not established in the Apostles time the Magistrates did then persecute and not defende the Churche The Churche in the Apostles tyme was established in doctrine moste perfectly in discipline gouernment and ceremonies as was conuenient for that tyme and as the Church maye be in tyme of persecution but the tyme was not yet come wherof the Prophete Esay 49. sayde Kings shall be thy nursing fathers and Princes shall be thy nursing mothers therfore it was not established in any ciuill gouernment neyther did it so publikcly and openly shewe it selfe The Gospell and the Church was in Queene Maries tyme here in Englande but it was persecuted not established not maynteyned not allowed of nor professed by the publike magistrate and the lawes of the lande and therefore of necessitie a greate difference betwixte the gouernmente of it then and the gouernmente of it nowe the outwarde shewe of it then and the outward shewe of it nowe the placing of Ministers then and the T. C. often offendeth in ignorance of the Eiench ▪ placyng of them nowe My meanyng and my woordes be playne you needed not to haue offended agayne as almoste contynually you doe in the ignorance of the Elench whylest you doo not reason nor answere ad idem If you speake of the Churche as it is a communion and societie of the faithfull and elect onely and of the gouernment thereof as it is onely spirituall then is it moste certaine that the Churche is as thoroughly established as perfectely gouerned as gloriously decked and beautified in the tyme of persecution as it is or can be vnder the ciuill Magistrate But if you speake of the externall societie of the Churche which comprehendeth bothe good and euill and of the outwarde gouernment of it then neyther it is nor can be in suche perfecte state nor so thoroughly established or outwardly adorned in the tyme of the Crosse as it is and may be vnder a Christian Prince The ignorance of thys distinction of the Church and of the gouernment thereof of the whiche I haue spoken more at large in an Tract 2. other place causeth you to fall into so many and so grosse erroures concernyng the same You saye that if the Ciuile Magistrate were the head of the Churche c. Christe The Prince head of the Church onely and properly is the head of the Churche for it is hys body but yet in the respecte of the externall societie of the same and the Supreme authoritie that is gyuen of GOD to the Prince ouer his people in all causes he maye bée also in that respecte called the head of the Churche c. Chrysostom in Epistol ad Philip. Homel 13. gyueth thys name to certaine women Chrysost. of whome he sayeth thus Videntur mibi istae mulieres caput fuisse Ecclesiae quae illic erat These women seeme to mee to haue bin the head of the Churche which was there And therfore a learned mā answering Hosius who reproued Vergerius for mouing y t king Iaco. Andraea ▪ of Polonia to take vopen hym to be the head of that Churche sayeth on thys sorte As the Churche of Christ in earth is but one bodie so hathe it but one head as the Apostle teacheth which is Iesus Christe who is always present with his Churche and gouerneth it with his holie spirite c. but bicause this Church being visible is not onely ruled by the worde but by the sworde of the magistrate also appointed
Eradium mibi successorem volo c. Therefore least anye shoulde complayne of me I doe heere signifye vnto you all my will whyche I thynke to bee the wyll of God I will haue Eradius the mynister to bee my successoure c. Lastlye he sheweth howe he hymselfe was appointed Byshop his predecessor being yet aliue Here it is to be noted first what stirre began to be in Augustines time about such Notes out of the restunome of Augustine elections made by the people which was the cause why he and others appointed vnto themselues successors whilest they yet liued Secondly that Seuerus appointed to himselfe a successor and thought it not necessary therein to require the consent of the people which he would not haue neglected if it had bin either necessary or vsuall Last of all that Augustine pronounceth Eradius to be his successor in the presence of the people that they might know his minde but yet without asking their voyces although they did willingly of themselues consent for that which afterward he requireth them to subscribe vnto was the petition that he made vnto them no more to trouble hym with their ciuil matters but that they would resort vnto Eradius his successor for such causes When the reader hathe well considered these circumstances which he shall better learne in the place itselfe then let hym iudge how muche it serueth for your turne It may appeare by that Epistle of Ambrose what contention there was in Vercellensi Contention about popular elections ecclesia to the which he wrote about the election of their Byshop for they had bene long destitute of one as it there appeareth Wherefore he exhorteth them to agrée ▪ ment by the example of their predecessors who so well agréed in choosing of Eusebius wherevpon he saith meritò vir tantus meaning Eusebius euasit quem omnis elegit ecclesia Ambro. epi. 82 meritò creditum quòd diuino esset electus iudicio quem onmes postulauissent He worthily proued a notable man whome the whole Church elected he was rightly thought to be chosen by gods appointment whome euery one desired And who doubteth but that he is called of God whome the whole Church without suite without sinister affection without intent to mainteine factions and schismes doth desire this proues that in Ambrose his time in that Church the people desired their Byshop which is not to be denied but it also sheweth that in the same time there were maruellous contentions about such elections which is to be considered Nazianzene in that oration hath not one argument to proue that the election of the minister Nazianzene performeth not that for the which he is auouched Contention in popular elections doth perteyne to the Church neyther doth he confute those things which should séeme to hinder it for there is none alleadged only he declareth what a maruellous stirre and sedition there was at two sundry times in the Church of Caesaria about the election of the Byshop what violence was vsed about the same how the people were deuided among themselues first and after against their ministers Likewise how they suddenly misliked their owne choise and would haue disanulled it if they had not bin restreyned of their willes by Nazianzene his father How the Emperoure also and the ruler of the citie taking part with the factious company were by him pacifyed Surely this maketh very little to the commendation of popular elections Nay in the second contention that he there reciteth declaring who were the especiall authours of it he saith Ecclesiae enim a malo erant immunes pariter opulentiores potētiores sed omnis The common people especial authours of tumults in elections impetus ac seditio inter plebem erat ac precipuè vilissimam For the churches meaning the Cleargie were cleare from that mischiefe so were the richer sort also and they which were of greater authoritie but all the violence and sedition was among the common people and among them especially which were of the basest sort And a little after telling how his father pacifyed that sedition he saith that his father writ vnto them admonished them p pulum sacerdotes necnon alios quotquot qui ad gradum pertinebant obtestabatur eligebat * calculum ferebat c. He humbly intreated the people the priests and others which perteyned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to that order he elected chose c. What is here spoken that maketh not rather against you than with you no man denieth but that the people at this time had interest in the election of the minister in diuers Churches but that doth not proue that they ought to haue so nowe or that the Byshop hath no interest in the same nay inconueniences of popular elections did then manifestly appeare There is not as yet one authoritie brought in to proue that the ordering of ministers T. C. reasoneth not ad idem and defendeth not the Admonition doth at no hand apperteine to the byshop whiche the Admonition affirmeth and I haue improued but you haue not replyed vnto it kéeping your olde accustomed manner still not to reason ad idem for whereas you shoulde conclude thus the ordering of ministers doth at no hand perteyne to a Byshop you conclude thus The election T. C. letteth slip y e which he shold proue and yet proueth not that which he would The propositions that should haue bin defended of a Pastor or Byshop perteyneth not to one man alone And yet you haue not proued that only you bring in examples of popular elections and so haue I broughte in both examples and authorities for the sole election of the Byshop for they be both true But you ought to proue these two propositions if you will iustify the Admonition firste that popular elections ought to be perpetuall and secondly that the ordeyning of ministers dothe at no hand perteyne to the Byshop But you subtilly passe these ouer and cast a mist before your readers eyes in heaping vp out of Illiricus néedelesse proofes Chap. 7. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 41. Sect. 3. And that this election continued in the Churche vntill within a CCC yeares at what tyme there was more than Egyptiacall and palpable darknesse ouer the face of the whole yearth it may appeare in a treatise of Flaccus Illiricus whiche he calleth an addition vnto his booke that he entituleth the catalogue of the witnesses of truth of whome I confesse my selfe to haue bin (a) Not only much but almost altogither muche holpen in this matter of the choise of the Church touching the ministers especially in the Emperours edicts whiche are before cited For lacking opportunities diuers ways I was contented somewhat to vse the collection to my commoditie for the more speedy furtherance and better proceeding in other matters which I will leaue of bycause they may be there red of those that be learned whome I wil also referre to the sixt
Sect. 3. Touching the behalfe of God and his glory if any man will say that they can not perish which once haue beleeued and therfore those may be left and others attempted I can say of those that are in ignorance and blindnesse that they can not perishe that be elected although they neuer haue the Gospell preached And therfore we must walke in those wayes that God hath appoynted to bring them to saluation which is to feede them continually and watche ouer them so long as they are in daunger of hunger in daunger of wolues in daunger of the enimies within and without which is so long as the Churche is heere vpon the earth Io. Whitgifte God forbid that any man should vse any suche kinde of excuses to take away the meanes wherby God vseth to cal such as be his but it is a coÌ„fort to the pastor when he is in conscience persuaded that he hath not omitted to open vnto his flocke those wayes and meanes and that he ceasseth not still to admonish theÌ„ of the same in time conuenient S. Paul Act. 20. sayth to the Ministers of the Church of Ephesus that he Act. 20. was free from the bloud of them all and that he had opened vnto them the whole counsel of God c. and yet he had not bin muche with them and after that time he thought that he should not sée the most of them any more Wherfore a man may do his dutie and open all things and meanes necessarie vnto saluation although he be not continually remayning in one place Chrysostome expounding the place in the thirde to Chrysost. 〈◊〉 3. Col. the Collos. Let the worde of God dwell in you c. after that he hath willed them to prepare them Bybles and tolde them that it especially perteyneth to them to reade the scriptures he addeth cast not all vpon our shoulders You are sheepe but yet reasonable the Apostle hath committed many things vnto you Those that are to be instructed muste not alwayes learne c. And agayne he sayth Habes oracula dei nemo te docebit quemadmodùm illa Thou hast the word of God no man can teache thee like vnto it Chap. 1. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag 49. Sect 4. Upon all which things I conclude that the residence of the Pastor is necessary to doubt whether the Pastor ought to be resident amongest his flocke is to doubt whether the watchman should be in his towre the eye should be in the head or the soule in the body or the shephard amongest hys flocke especally where the sheepe are continually in daunger of wolues as in the land of Iurie froÌ„ whence this similitude or maner of speach was taken where they watched their flockes night and day as I obserued before out of S. Luke Io. Whitgifte The question is not whether the pastor ought to be resident or no but of the time the maner and kind of residence No man must continually be absent for that were altogether to neglect his flocke neither is it required that he be continually present for that can not be But if he neglect not his duetie in preaching performe other things requisite although he be sundry times absent vpon the occasions before specified yet is he not to be condemned seyng it often times commeth to passe y t such kind of men do most good both in their Churches particularly and in the Church generally Of the watchman and of the shephard I haue spoken before and shewed wherin the similitude Tract 4. caâ— â–ª diuis 6. tract 5. ca. â— diuisi 3. holdeth wherin it holdeth not no one watchman is continually in y e towre neither is it possible that he should be it is sufficient if the towre be watched the chiefe watchman neglect not his duetie the shephard also is not alwayes present wyth his shéepe but sometime he leaueth them alone when he hath folded theÌ„ or brought them into a safe pasture sometimes he coÌ„mitteth theÌ„ to his seruaunt or to some other to be kept in his absence The similitude of the eye and of the soule in some pointes may be aptly applyed but not in this of residence for if either the eye be plucked out of the head or the soule separated from the body neither of them both can be restored again But you must confesse that there be causes why a pastor may be absent froÌ„ his flocke without any such vncurable daunger and therfore these similitudes in these cases of absence holde not T. C. Page 49. Sect. 5. If any will here vpon conclude that they haue no space giuen them to slepe to eate to drinke c. they are cauils which I will not vouchsafe to answere Io. Whitgifte A very modest and short answere Chapter 1. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 49. Sect. vlt. Againe if he will say that then they may not go forth of the towne to do their necessarie businesse Here you ouerthrow all your former building â–ª â—1 Iohn for their families I desire them in the name of God y t they abuse not his graces in deuising cloakes to couer their disorders but that they would set before them the loue of Christ which shal be found to de so much as they shall shew themselues diligent in continuall feeding their flockes to feare the iudgement of God before whom no feined or coloured excuse will stande And so I trust they will make no longer absence than must needes and if vpon any occasion at any time they be somewhat longer that the same be not without the leaue of their Churches whose they are and which they for the Lord his sake serue then also that in suche rare and necessary absence (*) Here you admit curaâ— which is contrary to your formeâ— assertion they prouide theÌ„ of some able man to teach in the meane season which the Churche by hir gouernours wyll allowe of Io. Whitgifte Yet such doubtes woulde be directly resolued for they séeme something to trouble you And in very déede they cause you to ouerthrow whatsoeuer you haue hetherto gone aboute to builde for nowe you confesse that the Pastor maye be absente of hys owne priuate busynesse if he haue leaue of hys Parishe and if he prouide some able man to teache in the meane season c. I pray you let me aske you a few questions may not a man be aswell absent for publike affaires or at the commaundement of the Prince or chiefe Magistrate as he may be for his owne priuate businesse Is not his flocke in as great daunger when their Pastor is absent with their leaue as when he is absent without their leaue or where do you finde it in scripture that the Pastor oughte to aske leaue of his Parishe when he hath occasion to be absent Or howe shall he get Pag. 42. c. an able man in the meane season to teache his flocke when as you affirme that no man
the Metropolitane as it is euident in the words of that same epistle which I haue recited Moreouer it is manifest that this name Archbishop was then vsed and after that The name of Primate allowed in the Councell of Carthage M. Foxe time continued and not disalowed by any as it may appeare by that which hath bin hitherto written And this name Primate whiche is as hautie as the name of Archbyshop is allowed euen in that councell of Carthage as may appeare in the. 13. 17. and. 23. canons as it is in the Gréeke copye Wherfore in my opinion M. Foxe doth aptly decide this controuersie in that learned treatise of his firste tome where he speaking of this same Councell and of this Canon which you haue recited for I suppose you did borrow it there signifyeth in effect that neyther the name of Primate Archbyshop or Metropolitane is by that Canon prohibited but rather these ambitious titles of uniuersall Byshop prince of all priests head of all priests and suche like Whiche names séeme to derogate authoritie both of iurisdiction and office from all other priestes and therfore alittle after he saith Thus then these titles aboue recited as Byshop Metropolitane Byshop of the first seate Primate Patriarke Archbyshop that is to meane chiefe byshop or headbishop o other byshops of his prouince we denie not but were then in old time applyed and might be applyed to the Byshop of Rome like as the same also were applyed to other Patriarks in other chiefe cities and prouinces And in the same place after he a the declared this title summus orbis Pontifex as it is now vsed in Rome to be vnhard of in the primitiue time of the Churche that is fiue hundred yeares after Christ. He saith the like is to be affirmed also of other presumptuous titles of like ambition as the head of the vniuersall Church the vicar of Christ in earth Prince of priests with such like which be all new found termes c. so that it is plaine that these general titles of vniuersall iurisdiction ouer all and not the particular names of superioritie ouer seuerall Churches is by this Councell forbidden Thys farther appeareth in the fyfth Councell of Constantinople where Iohn not Con. Const n. alias the. 2. being content with the name of Patriarke of Constantinople would néedes haue it ratifyed by the councell that he should be called Oecumenicus Patriarcha that is vniuersall Patriarch Against which title not of Patriach but of vniuersall Patriarch both Pelagius and Gregory at that time byshops of Rome the one succéeding the other did earnestly write and this is the true meaning of that Canon Ignatius immediatly after the Apostles time calleth a Byshop principem sacerdotum Ignatius epist. ad Smirn. Ambros. in 4. Eph. the Prince of priests or chiefe Priest and so doth Ambrose in the fourth ad Ephesios But this they do not attribute to any one as hauing vniuersall authoritie ouer all but to euery byshop in respect of such as be vnder him Touching the byshop of Constantinople your are deceyued very muche and declare in hym the same vnskilfulnesse that you haue done in the other For it is euident that he required thys name and title of vniuersall Patriarch ambitiously as béeing desirous to be superiour to all the Patriarchs in the worlde This to be true Distinct. 99. is manifest by the decrée of Pellagius Distinct. 99. Canon Nullus And by the Epistles of Gregory written purposely of that m̄atter Neyther do I reade in any approued author to the contrary Agayne you are deceiued greatly in the Councell For though the Byshoppe of Constantinople did chalenge in the Councell of Chalcedon the righte of ordering Metropolitanes in those places yet doth he not in that Councell chalenge the title of vniuersall Patriarch whiche notwithstanding was offered to the Byshoppe of Rome in that Councell of Chalcedon but first giuen to the Patriarch of Constantinople in the seconde Councell of Constantinople or as it is termed in the booke of Con. tom 2. Councels the fifte bycause it was the fiftegenerall Councell as it may appeare in the same councell Moreouer whereas you say that the Byshop of Constantinople required that he might ordeyne Byshops in Asia c. if you marke the words diligently you shall perceiue that he re quired therin nothing but according to the sixth Canon of the Councell of Nice whiche is also there alledged for that purpose but I haue shewed before how the Byshop of Rome made this chalenge of vniuersalitie in effect and indéede euen in that Councell of Carthage where this Canon by you alleadged is and therefore I néede not stand any longer vpon this poynt Chap. 2. the. 29. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 66. Sect. 6. 7. 8. Page 67. Sect. 1. 2. Damasus calleth Stephen an Archdeacon Archdeacons Hierome in his epistle ad Euagrium hath this name Archdeacon Sextus in his decrees saithe that Laurence the Martyr was an Archdeacon Sozomenus lib. 7. cap. 19. maketh mention of an Archdeacon reading the scriptures Socrates in the seuenth booke of his ecclesiasticall historie speaketh of one Timothie an Archdeacon T. C. Pag. 72. Sect. 5. 6. 7. For to proue y e lawfulnesse of the name of an Archdeacon the antiquitie the necessitie of it the testimonies of a foure are brought which neyther speake of their lawfulnes nor of their necessitie * T. C. f eth in his accompt and telleth but fower for fiue and they say not indeede so much as god saue them and two of these witnesses are Popes whereof the first and best ordayned that if the Metropolitane did not fetch his pall at the Apostolike see of Rome within three moneths after he be consecrated that then he should lose his dignitie as (b) In what part of Gratian. Gratian witnesseth in the decrees that he ascribeth vnto Damasus I doubt not therefore that this is but a forger vpon whome you would father the Archdeacon For that Damasus in whose place you put this forger liued Anno. 387. at what time the see of Rome had no such tyrannie as this and other things which are fathered of him do pretend And if this be inough to proue Archdeacons I can with better witnesse proue subdeacons Acoluthes exorcists lectors ostiarios these doth Ensebius make mention of an (c) This is vntrue for Sixtuis more ancient auncienter writer than any you bring and out of Ruffine Theodorete Sozomene Socrates c. monkes almost in euery page and herevpon it is more lawfull for me to conclude that monkes subdeacons exorcists acoluthes ostiarij lectores are necessary ecclesiasticall orders in the Churche as you conclude the necessitie of the Archdeacon I perceiue you care not whether the Archdeacon fal or no that you bestow so little cost of him and leaue him so nakedly And if I would be but halfe so bold in (d) What haue you else but cōiectures comectures and diuinations
haue much a do to proue that Antichrist had not inuaded the sce of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote nay it is most certayne that then he had possessed it but what is that to the purpose although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted vp yet corruptiō of doctrine of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion pompe of y e Cleargie new orders functions of y e ministerie which were the hāds that pulled him y e feete which brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued hym vp into that seat were in the Church Neither while you do thus speake do you seeme to remember that this monster needed not nine monethes but almost nine hundred yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could with all his parts be brought to light And althoughe the louer of this Antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations thereof being secretly and vnder the grounde laid in the Apostles time you might easily know that in those times that you spake of y e building was wonderfully aduaunced growen very high and being a very daungerous thing to ground any order or pollicie of the Churche vpon men at all which in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles I wyll shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to send vs for our examples and patterns of gouernment to these times which he doth dicette vs vnto Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes the same mighte be also spoken of the Apostles times For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist sayd Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis for the mysterie of iniquitie doth already worke And S. Iohn sayd that there then began to be many Antichristes but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time or shall we therfore refuse to take such examples of it as is conuenient for our time There is no man of learning and modestie which will without manifest proofe condemne any order especially touching the gouernment of the Churche that was vsed and allowed during the time of the primitiue Church which was the next 500. yéeres after Christ within the which time most of my authorities are conteined Neyther was there any functiō or office brought into the Church during al that time allowed by any generall Councel or credible writer which was not most meete for that time and allowable by the word of God I graunt that Antichrist was working all this time and grewe more and more for else could there neuer haue bene so many sectes and heresies from time to tyme spred in the Church which was the cause of so many singular and notable Councels so many profitable and necessary bookes written by such learned and godly Doctors as did with might and maine striue against them Out of the which Councels and fathers and best witnesses what was done in those times I haue fetched my proofes euen out of them I say that did with might and maine labour to kepe out Antichrist from the possession of the Church and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist I knowe that those sectes and heresies gaue strength vnto Antichriste and at the length were one speciall meanes of placing him in his throne euen as I am also perswaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious persons that he worketh as effectually at this daye by your styrres and contentions wherby he hath and will more preuaile against this Church of England than by any other meanes whatsoeuer Therefore it behoueth you to take héede how you deuide the armie of Christ which should vnanimiter fight against that Antichrist As for vs we must follow the examples of those good fathers and labour accordingly to restore vnitie and to preserue it Chap. 2. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth y e as long as the Apostles lyued y e Church remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the darke and as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the Apostles and that generation was paste whiche God vouchsaued to heare the diuine wisedome with their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church Io. Whitgifte It is euident in diuerse places of the Scripture namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the churche in the Apostles time ▪ Corinthians and the Epistle to the Galath that there were many grosse and greate corruptions openly professed in the Churche by diuerse not onely in maners but also in doctrine euen in the Apostles tyme and Eusebius hymselfe declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idē Lib. 3. was one Simon mencioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresie Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewyse he sheweth Lib. 3. that Ebion Cerinthus and the Nicholaites all horrible heretikes were in the Apostles time Wherefore if this be a good reason then is it not safe for vs to follow no not the Apostles time Chap. 2. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Element also in a certayne place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat somvvhat after the be ginning after the Apostles time alleageth the prouerb that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers Io. Whitgifte I can finde no such thing in Clement but the matter is not great whether he saye so or no. The argument is starke noughte for if this followe that we may take no example paterne or testimonie of gouernment out of that time bycause it was corrupte then by the same reason muste we not take examples of any tyme no not out of the Apostles time bicause that was also corrupte as I haue saide Your argumentes be passing strong surely I maruaile with what boldnesse you write them Chap. 2. the. 39. Diuision T. C. Page 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates sayth of the Church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous Li. 7. 11. Churches in the Apostles tymes that aboute the yeare 430. the Romane and Alexandrian Byshops (*) Socrates fal fied leauyng the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion wherevpon we see that it is safe for vs to goe to the Scriptures and to the Apostles tymes for to fetche our gouernment and order and that it is very daungerous to drawe from those ryuers the fountaynes wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie than is the head itselfe Io. Whitgifte You falsifie the wordes of Socrates for thus be sayth For euen till that tyme the Nouatians florished maruellously at Rome and had manye Churches and had gathered Socra lib. 7. Cap. 11. muche people But enuie tooke holde of
Lorde These therefore be they whome we call excommunicated and who for two respectes are not members of the Churche one according to men bycause they are excluded from the holy felowship of the faythfull the other according to God bycause that saying of Christe is sure that that is bounde in heauen whiche is ryghtlye bounde of the Churche in the earth But it is an other thyng truelye to bee bounde in heauen than to bee cast out of that true kyngdome of heauen whiche neuer happeneth to anye of the electe For that saying of Christe standeth that those shall neuer bee caste out whome the Father hath giuen the Sonne and that of Lohn if they had bene of vs they woulde haue taried with vs and that of the Apostle the foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale the Lorde knoweth who be is Therefore as touching Christe these are sayd not to be his nor members of the Churche not as the firste whiche are reprobate and damned but bycause for a tyme as concernyng the force and efficacie of the spirite they are without hym as beyng so engraffed in hym that they receyue not that lyuelye nouryshement of the spirite of Christe for a tyme that is tyll grace of repentaunce be gyuen them To conclude the difference betwixt these and the firste is such as is betweene a legge of woode ioyned cunninglye to a true bodye whiche notwithstanding is not a legge in deede neyther is truely called a parte of that man and betwyxt a true legge that yet for a tyme receyueth not nouryshement in suche sorte that vnles it be refreshed by the strengthe of some sharpe medicine it wyll necessaryly putrific and cleane peryshe VVherefore seeing these thinges be thus and charitie byddeth vs to hope well of all yea and also to take care for them whiche are helde as captiues in the snare of the Deuyll God forbydde that the Parentes beyng excommunicated wee should conclude that theyr posteritie belongeth not to the kyngdome of God Furthermore there is great difference betweene those whiche although they bee notorious offendours neuerthelesse departe not from the Churche and betweene those that are manifeste rennegates ioyning them selues with the enimies to oppresse the truthe of the Gospell Further it were vnreasonable to esteeme of Papistes muche lesse Christians excommunicated no otherwise than of Turkes for although it bee vnpossible to serue the Pope and Christ togyther yet it is certayne that Poperie is an erring of the Christian Churche VVherefore the Lorde hath in the middest of that goulfe of Papistrie preserued Baptisme that is the first entering into the Churche whereby it appeareth as also the thing it selfe proueth in vs that although Papisme be not the Churche yet the Churche hathe bene and is as it were drowned or couered in it whiche can not by anie meanes bee sayde of the Turkes whiche neuer gaue theyr names to Chryst. Lastly for so muche as the goodnesse of God is extended to a thousande generations that is as it were without ende it were harde if wee shoulde iudge of the children whether they belong to the couenant of God or no by the profession of their last Parentes Therefore of all these argumentes ioyned togither we conclude that the children of persons excommunicate abyding yet in the Churche of God can by no right bee debarred from Baptisme if in case a meete suretie bee had whiche will make promyse to the Church that they shall be vertuously brought vp which I thinke ought to be done of the Ministers them selues and other Godly men rather than theyr Baptisme shoulde anie longer be deferred Yet it shall not be amisse if the Minister before he baptise the infant taking hereof occasion earnestly exhort the father that is excommunicated being present to epentance before the assemblie whiche is oftentymes practised in oure Churches Hitherto Beza Chap. 4. the 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. 2. And in the. 193. page he asketh what if the Parentes of the childe be vnknowen if it be yet if godly men will present it to baptisme with promyse of seing it brought vp in the feare of the Lorde for so much as it is founde in a place where the churche is and therefore by likelyhoode to apperteyne to some that was of the churche I thynke it may be baptised if the churche thynke it good in this last case Io. Whitgifte And why should you but thinke so what reason is there why it should not be baptised But yet this answere of yours dothe nothing iustifie the Aomonition Whiche would The parentes to presente their chyldren if conuentently makyng an open confession of that faythe wherein he would haue his chylde baptised For this can not be done where the Parentes be vnknowen neither is in such case any other man able to testifie of what faythe or behauiour the parentes were Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. vlt. Then he goeth forth in the. III. Page to proue that the children of those which he hath reckened may be baptised and demaundeth whither a wicked father may haue a good childe a Papist or Heretike father a beleeuing chylde yes verily may they So may haue and hath the Turke and the Iewe and yet their children are not to be receyued vnlesse their fayth doth fitste appeare by confession But you say the Papiste an Heretike be Baptised and so are not the Iewes and Turkes Their baptisme beyng cut of from the Churche maketh them as much straungers vnto it as was Ismaell and Esau whiche albeit they were circumcised yet beyng caste out of the Churche they were no more to be accompted to be of the body of Gods people then those whiche neuer were in the Churche Now you see (*) It is poyson in deede and the same whi he I suspected the poyson as you terme it which lieth hidde vnder these wordes and if it be as you say poyson let vs haue some of your triacle In all the reste of that section there is nothing but that which he spake of before onely the Eldership is amed which commeth to be intreated of in the next section Io. Whitgifte If their baptisme be so cut of that it also taketh away the priuiledge from their children howe can they be admitted agayne into the Churche without rebaptisation S. Augustine in the place before recited sayeth that Heretikes though they be cut of from the Churche yet they do retayne their Baptisme whiche beyng true there is no reason to seclude their children frō it I cannot learne but that the Sonnes of Ismaell were circumcised for it is written of the Egyptians as P. Martyr doth note P. Martyr in 4. Rom. that they circumcided at 14. yeares of age bycause Ismael was then circumcised Which tyme of circumcision the Arabians obserued in lyke manner And therefore it is not vnlike but that the Posteritie of Ismael was circumcised And as for the Sonnes of Esau it is not like that they were debarred from circumcision
person that is called to a lawful and a publike function as he did vpon Saule yet doth he not alway so God doth not of necessitie tye his graces to God bestoa weth his gifts by meanes offices for as he in the beginning of his churche miraculously bestowed his giftes so doth he now leaue the same by outwarde meanes in parte to be obteyned as by education learning instruction reading studying c. which meanes being neglected God doth of his iustice permitte euill Magistrates and officers which he also sometymes doth for the offences of the people as may be séene in the most parte of the kings of Iuda and of Ierusalem and almost in all christian princes and gouernours vnder the Popes tyrannie For I suppose you meane such giftes as be profitable for the Churche Surely if this were true that you here so boldly withoute proofe affirme then should it not much skill what kind of men wer chosen to be either Pastors or Magistrates for howsoeuer they were before furnished with gifts yet when they be once The absurditie of the R plye called God will miraculously poure vpon them gifts necessary though they be the rudest and ignorantest men in a whole countrey Is not this to boast of the spirit as the Anabaptists do but I thinke the Reader vnderstandeth that God now worketh by ord narie meanes not by miracles And though it be certaine that God dothe endue magistrates such as feare him with singular gifts yet doth he it by meanes as is said and it is not at all times so nor in all persons but whē where and in whome it pleaseth him Therefore to ground any generall doctrine vpon singular examples or to stablish an externall kind of gouernment vpon Gods inward and secret working to bind God vnto that of necessitie that he doth bestow of grace and mercy to make that common to al which he of his infinite wisedome bestoweth vpon some is not the part of a skilfull diuine But to let all this passe you do still petere principium and take that as graunted which you cannot proue that is that the office of Seniors is an office established in the Church by the commaundement of God and not to be altered whiche I for my part can neuer graunt vnto you except you haue more pithie reasons to proue it than any that you haue as yet vttered Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 26. Sect. 1. 2. It is true that we ought to be obedient vnto the ciuill magistrate which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto him and according to that callyng But it muste be remembred that 〈◊〉 magistrates must gouerns it according to the rules of God prescribed in his worde and that as they are nourises so they be seruantes vnto the churche and as they rule in the churche so they must remember to subiect themselues vnto the church to submit their scepters to throwe downe their crownes before the churche yea as the prophet speaketh to licke Esay 49. the dust of the feete of the churche Wherin I meane not that the church doth eyther wryng the scepters oute of princes handes or taketh theyr crownes from their heades or that it requyreth princes to licke the dust of her feete as the pope vnder this pretence hath done but I meane as the prophete meaneth that what soeuer magnificence or excellencie or pompe is eyther in them or in their estates and common wealthes whiche dothe not agree with the simplicitie and in the iudgement of the world poore and contemptible estate of the Church that that they will be content to lay downe And here commeth to my minde that wherewith the worlde is nowe dec iued and wherewith M. Doctor goeth about both to deceyue himselfe others too in that he thinketh that the Church must be framed according to the common wealth and the Church gouernment according to the uill gouernment (*) A dangerous doctrine which is as much to say as if a man should fashion his house according to his hangings when as indeede it is cleane contrary that as the hangings are made fit for the house so the common wealth must be made to agree with the Churche and the gouernmente thereof with hir gouernment For as the house is before the hangings and therefore the hangings which come after must be framed to the house which was before so the Churche being before there was y common wealth and the common wealth comming after must be fashioned and made suteable vnto the Church Otherwise God is made to giue place to men heauen to earth and religion is made as it were a rule of Lesbia to be applyed vnto any estate of common wealth whatsoeuer Seing (*) An obscu e and deformed argument that good men that is to say the Church are as it were the foundation of the world it is meete that the common wealth which is builded vpon that foundation should be framed according to the Churche and therefore those voyces ought not to be heard this order will not agree with our common wealth that law of God is not for our state this forme of gouernment wil not match with the pollicie of this realme Io. Whitgifte These words would be well considered for they conteine the ouerthrow of the The ouerthrow of the princes autho ritie conteined in the Reply princes authoritie both in ecclesiasticall and ciuil matters But I will only giue a breefe note of them in this place meaning to set foorth this matter more at large elsewhere When he saith that the ciuill magistrate must gouerne according to his calling and according to the rules of God prescribed in his word c. although the wordes be true et if you marke vpon what occasion they be spoken you shall perceiue the venome that lyeth hid vnder them for he doth thereby insinuate that the ciuill Magistrate may not intermedle with the office of the Senior that is with ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction for he taketh Seniors to be the officers appointed by God for that purpose which is to be reaue the ciuill Magistrate of his authoritie and to giue that to Seniors whiche the Pope vnder the like pretence doth arrogate vnto himselfe And therefore w ll and truly sayth M. Gualter in the place before recited Those men meaning suche as Gualter call for Seniors when they haue a Christian Magistrate do distinguish betweene the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in respect of the punishmente of sinnes and the discipline of manners But this distinction is taken out of the Popes shoppe and in the holy scriptures it is no where to be found For there is the same reason of the magistrate in the new Testament that was in times past in the old for so much as Christ hathe sayde that he came not to breake the law but to fulfill it But in times past the Iudges and kings had power to punish those that
watring the grounde with the droppes of his teares he asked forgiuenesse But this proueth not that the people had anie authoritie in excommunicating of him In this Church of Englande though the Bishop alone doe excommunicate Excommunicate persons not receyued before publike confession and repentance yet he that is excommunicated for any notorious cryme is not receyued into the Churche againe before he haue made a publike confession in the open Congregation and asked pardon and forgiuenesse of his offence Wherefore there is nothing yet alledged of any such force to proue that Ambrose alone did not excommunicate Theodosius Chap. 1. the. 15. Diuision Admonition Act. 11. 30. Act. 15. 2. 4 ▪ 6. c. The sixtenth In that the Lord Bishops their Suffraganes Archdeacons Chauncelors Ro. 12. 7. 8 Phil. 1. 1. Officials Proctors Doctors Sumners and such rauening rablers take vppon them whiche is most horrible the rule of Gods Churche spoyling the Pastor (t) Mat. 18. 17. 18. of his lawfull iurisdiction ouer 1. Co. 12. 28 1. Thes. 5. 12 13. his owne flocke giuen by the worde thrusting away most sacrilegiously that order whiche Christ hath left to his Church and which the primitiue Church hath vsed 1. Tim. 4. 14 ▪ 1. Tim. 5. 17 Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 220. Sect. 1. And first you shewe yourselfe greatly offended that the Pastor is spoyled of his lawfull iurisdiction ouer his flocke therfore you brust out into these wordes of heat rauening rablers horrible sacrllegiously and such like It had bene well if you had tolde vs what that lawfull iurisdiction of the Pastor ouer his flocke giuen by the worde had beene For the places of Scripture which you quote for that purpose do not plainly enough set out that matter In the. 18. of Mathew vers 17. after certaine admonitions in priuate offences Christ sayth Dir Ecclesiae tell the Church In whiche place as I tolde you before the Church doth signifie such as haue authority in the Church or else publike reprehension in the open congregation by such as be called thereunto It giueth not any peculiar iurisdiction to the Pastor for any thing that I can learne And in the same Chapter 18. verse where Christ sayth vvhat soeuer ye binde on earth shall be bounde in heauen c. according to your iudgement vttered before it is ment of the whole Church and not of the Pastor onely You haue before denied that one man can excommunicate and therefore this place maketh nothing for your assertion T. C. Pag. 149. Lin. 21. In the. 220. and. 221. pages he speaketh of this thing afresh but hath no newe matter but maketh a bare rehearsall of the places of the Admonition asking after his accustomed maner of confuting what maketh this or what proueth that onely whereas he sayde before and proued as he thought that the Minister had onely to doe with excommunication beeing pressed there by the Admonition eyther to defende or renounce his Chauncelors c. He had rather denie both the truth and himselfe than he woulde haue any of that horrible confusion and prophanation of the holy discipline of God brought in by Poperie threatning the ouerthrowe of the whole Churche and seruing for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and ydlenesse of a fewe to be driuen out of the Church Of the which I will vpon occasion speake a worde if first I shewe that the vse of the auncient Church hath beene not to permit the excommunication to one but that the sentence thereof shoulde come from the gouernours and elders of the Church vnto whome that did especially apperteyne Although I cannot posse by that which maister Doctor sayeth that for so much as the Authours of the Admonition had alledged the wordes tell the Churche to proue the interest of the Churche in excommunication that therefore they coulde not vse the same to proue the interest of the Pastor as who shoulde say that the Pastor is not one of the Churche But of the absurditie of this I haue spoken sufficiently before and howe all men doe see the vanitie of this reason that bycause the people haue an interest by this place therefore the Pastor hath none Io. Whitgifte I do indéed speake of this matter there againe after a sort for I am driuen vnto it by the order of the Admonition But in all those words there by me vttered touching excōmunicatiō I do not once aske what maketh this or what maketh that as you charge me although I might iustly vse these kinde of questions as sufficient answeres to such vnskilfull quotations as they paint theyr margent with and somtimes indéed I make such demaundes but it is to shewe the fondnesse of their allegations I defende no Chauncelors c. that vsurpe any office wherevnto they be not lawfully called but I woulde not haue the Scriptures abused to confute them least thereby séeing the weaknesse of our reasons they be animated rather to procéede than perswaded to leaue of I doe not thinke that Chauncellours ought to excommunicate with this kinde of excommunication that wée talke of except they bée Ministers and so muche haue I vttered in my Answere but I will not disquiet the Church for it by séeking reformation extraordinarily neyther will I bée wilfull if I can heare any sounde reasons to remoue me from this perswasion wherfore you doe in this cause and in this place vniustly charge me The place in the eightéenth of Sainct Mathew is vnderstāded of those to whom the discipline of the Churche is by the authoritie of the Churche committed that is in this churche of Englande the Bishop And therfore that place can not proue that there is any iniurie done to the Pastor or that hée is spoyled of his lawful iurisdiction and this is the effect of my answere whereat you only cauill as your nature is I saye in déede that this place was before alleaged in the Admonition to proue that the whole Churche shoulde excommunicate and not one man onely and therefore I sée not howe the same place maye aptly bée alleadged to proue anye iurisdiction of the Pastor ouer his flocke séeyng it gyueth to the flocke equall iurisdiction with the Pastor and not to the Pastor any superioritie ouer them if the interpretation vsed in the Admonition be true Let the Reader consider the wordes of my Answere to the Admonition and trie whether there be any suche absurdities in them or no. Surely it is a fault both in you and the Admonitors to make the Scripture so pliable to your fansies and the same place to serue as many turnes as you lyst Chap. 1. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 149. past the middst But I come to shewe the vse of the primitiue Churche in this matter wherof we haue a manifeste This place of Tertullian is verie corruptly alleaged as will appeare ▪ testimonie in Tertullian If sayeth he there be any whiche haue committed suche a Tertull. in Apol.