Selected quad for the lemma: earth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
earth_n	church_n	invisible_a	visible_a	3,670	5	9.2967	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14657	The svmme of a dispvtation betweene Mr. VValker, pastor of St. Iohn Euanglists [sic] in Watling-street London, and a popish priest calling himselfe Mr. Smith, but indeed Norrice assisted by other priests and papists : held in the presence of some worthy knights, with other gentlemen of both religions.	Walker, George, 1581?-1651.; S. N. (Sylvester Norris), 1572-1630.	1624 (1624)	STC 24960.5; ESTC S2955	22,486	46

you our King will marry his Son and aske the Pope no leaue if the other party will aduenture it as well as he It is most intollerable that you should so boldly slaunder his Maiestie Secondly for the tearmes of my questions which you call vnmannerly they are the same which it pleaseth Gods spirit to vse in the holy Scriptures and his holinesse hath in his wisedome been pleased to stile the Pope and Church of Rome by the same titles as I shall quickly proue if you will vndertake to answer me And therefore you are too bold to taxe Gods spirit of vnmannerlinesse But perhaps this is a shift of yours to put off our disputation vpon these poynts which pay you home with a cleanely excuse of vnmannerly tearmes yet it shall not serue your turne for the more vnseemly that the questions are the more disgrace it will be to me and the more hard taske to proue them and to you it will be more credit and ease to defend the contrary so that this is no excuse for you at all Thirdly in that you doe charge vs here at home so manifestly contrary to common sense that we haue neither Church nor Faith when as we beleeue and professe all holy truthes taught in the holy Scriptures which by your selues cannot be denyed to be Gods infallible word But I pray you let vs leaue all loose and idle discourses and come to a strict forme of Disputation writing downe the Arguments and answers which doe passe betweene vs. Your taske which you haue vndertaken is to proue that we haue no Church nor Faith let vs heare your arguments briefly Mr. Smith Well that we may come quickly and closely come home to the matter let me aske you a question and doe you answer me that I may ground my Arguments vpon your owne words and I shall quickly proue against you my assertion and make the truth of it plainely appeare First I aske whether the true Catholike Church be visible M. Walker The true Catholike Church is not visible neither can it be seene with eyes of any mortall man on earth M. Smith Marke Gentlemen he will deny this Canon he saith the Catholike Church is not visible which I will proue to be against all reason Mr. Walker Indeed if I should say that it were visible considering it as it now is I should speake against all reason For the greatest part of it being Saints in heauen are without the reach of mans eyes and cannot be seene Mr. Smith You doe but equiuocate of purpose to decline all Disputation you know that I meane not the Church triumphant in heauen but the Catholike Church militant on earth Mr. Walker Nay rather doe you equiuocate or worse for to say that the Catholike Church is militant on earth is as absurd as to say that all mankinde euen the whole vniuersall race of Adam are now liuing on earth when reason and experience teach vs that the greatest part are dead and many also yet vnborne I hope you know that the word Catholike signifies vniuersall and therefore the Catholike Church is vniuersall company of the Elect and faithfull and includes in it euery one whosoeuer hath beene or is or shall be hereafter a true beleeuing member of Christ and a●l they cannot bee seene at once on earth because they neuer were altogether on earth The militant number of them on earth are the least part of them Mr. Smith You doe wrangle to auoyde D●sputation I therefore tell you that by the Catholi●e militant Church I vnderstand the true Church of Iesus Christ which all true Christians here on earth ought to heare and obey as it is the pillar and ground of tru●h now answer whether you hold that to be visible or inuisible M. Walker I iudge of your meaning by your words and therefore I cannot conceiue this Church which you doe speake of to be the Catholike that is the vniuersall Church for euery true particular Church in which euery true Christian doth loue and whereof he is a member is that which he ought to heare and to obey because by reason of the faithfull and elect which are in it it is the house of God and the pillar and firmament of truth Now euery such Church is partly visible and partly inuisible M. Smith How is it visible and how is it inuisible Mr. Walker Euery such true Church hath in it elect and faithfull men professing outwardly in word and practise true Christian religion who doe belong to the Catholike Church and are true liuely members of Christ It hath also some hypocrites and carnall professors which doe also make an outward show and profession of christianity but are not truely ingraffed into Christ by vnion and communion of the Spirit neither haue the true holy sauing Faith and by consequent are not members of the true Catholike Church Now the men who professe religion in the Church and are the members of it if we consider them as they are men and as they practise and performe outward duties of christians as preaching and hearing of the word administring and receiuing the Sacraments publike outward worship and such like they are visible But as for the election faith spirituall and in word graces and deuotion in the one sort by which they are indeed true christians belong to the Catholike Church and the hipocrisie and carnall corruption lurking inwardly in the other sort by meanes whereof they are seperated from communion with Christ in spirit they are things inuisible and to be discerned spiritually not with bodily eyes Thus euery true Church is partly inuisible to wit in respect of the spirituall graces which make men true Christians indeed and partly visible to wit in respect of the outward profession common both to elect and reprobates to faithfull men and hypocrites Mr. Smith No sooner was the answer giuen but Mr. Smith as one full of anger protested with vehemency of words that now he saw indeed there was neither Church nor Faith among Protestants they were all so contrary among themselues neuer agreeing together in any opinion He affirmed to the standers by that Doctor Whitakers Doctor Reignolds Mr. Perkins and many other chiefe Protestants did euer grant that the true Catholike Church was visible Another Priest sitting by scornefully repeated the name of Perkins and spake of him as of a poore silly man not worthy to be counted among the learned Mr. Walker Mr Walker moued with the falshood of the one and the scorne of the other first answered the scorner that none could count Mr. Perkins silly and vnlearned but either out of ignorance or wilfull mallice and that he knew it to be the fashion of popish Priests outwardly to sleight vilifie before the people such as do most cut and gall them To Mr. Smith he answered that if he would grant that Protestants haue a true Church and the true faith as truely as that which he affirmed of Doctor Whitakers and the rest was false

he would desire no more for the victorie Yea saith hee if you haue read Doctor Whitakers you know that he holds as I doe and that you wilfully and falsely father on him things vntrue Mr. Smith Mr. Smith enraged with this answer protested what he had said was true and the more to perswade the standers by he added more specially that Doctor Whitakers doth in his writings maintaine that the whole essence of the true Church consists onely in the true preaching of the word and the right administration of the Sacraments which are things visible Mr. Walker Sir I doe not loue to contend by oathes and protestations but by proofes I will here write downe your wordes which he did and read them in the hearing of all and asked if hee had not truly written and all assented he had Then hee proceeded thus I doubt not sir but you haue learned Logick and doe knowe that the definition of a thing doth expresse the whole essence and that what a man defines a thing to be that he holds to be the essence of it Tell me here doe you not grant this Mr. Smith I doe Mr. Walker Well then it must be granted that Doctor Whitaker doth hold that to be the essence of the Church which he doth comprehend in the definition of the Church Now his definition of the Church is Coelus electorum fid●lum A company of elect and faithfull men and he proues against Bellarmine that none can be seene with the eye to be members of the Catholike Church because the elect onely faithfull and godly belong to it whose graces are inuisible and not hypocrites and reprobates as Bellarmine doth hold Dare you deny this Mr. Smith I am sure he holds as I said before that the whole essence of the Church consists in true preaching of Gods word and in administration of the Sacraments Mr. Walker Because I will not spend time in contesting with you let this be the issue before these Gentlemen let vs send for Doctor Whitakers workes and if I doe not shew that he doth proue against Bellarmine that the Catholike Church is inuisible and that this is a maine point largely disputed by him and a maine controuersie betweene him and Bellarmine let mee be branded with the marke of a wilfull lyer impostore and false prophet But if I shew it presently before them all out of his owne writings then shall you confesse your selfe a forger and falsifier an impostor and a priest of Baal The Gentlemen all confessed that this was faire play and desired it might bee so Whereupon Mr. Smith began to draw backe and shewed himselfe vnwilling and much affraid to hazard his credit so quickly and would gladly haue left this point and fallen into another But Mr. Walker proceeded on this wise and said Gentlemen it is true that Doctor Whitakers maintaines that the Word truly preached and the Sacraments rightly administred are the certaine and infallible notes and markes by which euery true particular Church may be discerned to bee Christs true church and you know that the markes of a thing differ from the essence and substance of it as the signe hanging at the dore of a Tauerne and shewing that house to be a Tauerne differs from the Tauerne it selfe and the habit and Cowle of a Monke or Frier which is the marke of his order differs from the Monke himselfe and is not any part of his essence I beseech you therefore take notice of the boldnesse and impudency of popish Priests how they can snatch here and there a speech out of our learned mens writings without any vnderstanding of it and thereby make show as if they had throughly read those Authors yea and can in common talke and in titles of their printed pamphlets professe that they haue confuted Whitakers Reignolds Field Perkins and many others whose bookes they neuer durst reade throughly neither haue the hardinesse to sift any of their maine arguments I assure you that as you see this which I say here verefied so I finde it a common thing among them all Mr. Smith Mr. Smith and all his company on his side were very vnwilling to insist any longer vpon this point therfore answered nothing but presently proceeded to another question and asked Mr. Walker Whether the whole militant Church on earth may erre Mr. Walker I answer that this question is captious and ambiguous and cannot directly in one word negatiue or affirmatiue bee answered my reasons are these First because the whole militant Church if such a Church may be acknowledged is nothing but the whole number of particular Churches militant on earth and in diuers points they doe differ among themselues and it is impossible for any man to finde out the iudgement of them all in euery point as it is impossible to gather them all at once into one place Secondly it may bee said both that it may erre and also that it cannot erre in diuers respects and considerations if wee consider it by it selfe alone as it is militant and according to the militancy and weaknesse of it as I may so speake we grant that it may erre and in euery particular part of it there may bee found some errors but if we consider it according vnto the relation and dependance which it hath vpon the Triumphant Church and the assistance which it hath from Christ his Prophets and Apostles vpon whose doctrine and Scriptures it doth wholly cast it selfe and builds all the doctrines of faith so it cannot erre for in so doing it doth follow infallible guides euen as the Apostle saith of a man regenerate and borne of God that he cannot sinne 1 Ioh. 3. to wit in the maine against the maine precepts of the Gospell Beleeue and Repent for he cannot fall into impenitency and infidelity because the seede of God euen his holy Spirit abides in him But that he hath sinne and doth lie if he saith he hath none to wit through infirmity and weakenesse of the flesh So likewise it is truely said of the true Church and euery part thereof that as it builds onely on the Scriptures and doth vrge no doctrine of faith of necessity to be beleeued but such as the Scriptures teach So it cannot erre no more then the Scripture for this is a work of infallible faith But because all men liuing in the Church haue as infirmities of life so imperfections in iudgement and some peruersnesse in affections and therefore may faile in conceiuing some doubtfull and obscure places of Scripture amisse or in cleauing not so close to the word as they ought or following their owne affections to much as we see in all the writings of the Fathers and in the most part of the generall Councells in this respect we truly say that the Church militant may erre Mr. Smith You doe what you can to keepe off and not to come to the point but I will bring you to it doe what you can if you will answer me