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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
earth_n	church_n	invisible_a	visible_a	3,670	5	9.2967	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08426	A true report of the disputation or rather priuate conference had in the Tower of London, with Ed. Campion Iesuite, the last of August. 1581. Set downe by the reuerend learned men them selues that dealt therein. VVhereunto is ioyned also a true report of the other three dayes conferences had there with the same Iesuite. Which nowe are thought meete to be published in print by authoritie	Nowell, Alexander, 1507?-1602.; Day, William, 1529-1596. aut; Fielde, John, d. 1588.; Fulke, William, 1538-1589. aut; Goad, Roger, 1538-1610. aut; Campion, Edmund, Saint, 1540-1581. aut; Walker, John, d. 1588. aut; Charke, William, d. 1617. aut	1583 (1583)	STC 18744; ESTC S113389	169,017	230

purpose is not to deale by discourse but briefely by Logical arguments according to the order of schooles c. After he had inquired D. Fulkes name Campion also spake after this maner Campion The disputation that I desire is yet behinde for I desire it might bee in the Uniuersities This may bee called a conference but it is not the disputation which I require Besides these conferences are vnequall both in respect of the suddainnesse of them as also for want of such necessary helpes as were fitte and conuenient I see that you haue some appoynted to note as if it were made a solemne matter I shoulde haue the like so shoulde I haue come better furnished and all these might haue bene better profited Besides I haue bene yll dealt withall already things heretofore spoken by me haue bene mistaken and published in print otherwise then I euer meant D. Fulke For the suddennesse it is all alike with vs. Master Lieutenant sent you worde by my request to chuse the question your selfe on Saturday last at noone so that you had knowledge of the question as soone as we and also the choyse and appointing thereof As for the noting it is not made so solemne a matter that it can preiudice you but to preuent false reportes that may bee spread of the conference iniurious as well to you as to vs. As for the disputation you require it is not at our appoyntment It must be ordred by them that are to appoynt both you and vs. We come by commandement c. but let vs goe to the matter You slaunder vs and Master Caluine likewise in the thirde chapter of your booke for defining of the Catholike Church as we do You say we make it a Platonicall Idaea an ayrie thing that is no where c. But I will proue that it is against the nature of the Catholike Church at any time to be visible Campion Where do I slaunder you or Caluine Reade my booke I wil maintaine my booke and euery part of it And as for the Catholike Church I will mayntaine that from the time of Adam to Christ and from Christ vnto vs the Church hath bene visible But because you say I slaunder you and Caluine shewe my wordes D. Fulke These are your wordes Non est ausus contrauenire sonitu videri noluit Ecclesiae quam toties Scripturae commemorant refragari nomen callidè retinuit rem ipsam funditùs definiendo sustulit c. And ye quote Cal. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 2. 3. Here you plainely slaunder Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church comprehending all the elect of God that haue bene are or shal be to be inuisible Camp The Catholike Church is considered according to her parts triumphant in heauen and militant on earth generally particularly and I am ready to maintaine that alwayes the militant Church in earth is visible euery 〈◊〉 in his mayer knoweth this who in their prayers pray for the Church militant therefore this is the poynt whether this be alwayes visible Fulke Wel then it appeareth in the very beginning that you swarue from the title of your owne booke sclaundering vs without cause for the definition of the whole Catholike Church and Sophistically you goe from the whole to a parte from the Catholike Church to the Church militant which is but a part of it when as the whole Catholike Church comprehendeth all the elect and is the full body of Christ that filleth all in all things as the Apostle sayeth and as we confesse in the articles of our faith We beleeue the Catholike church We deny not that the church militant sometime is visible but we affirme that the whole Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen is not visible And what cause haue you then to exclaime vpon Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church to be inuisible This we are here ready to prooue Camp I haue sayd that vpon earth the Church is alwayes visible But I pray you let vs speake of the Church militant I am sure these gentlemen would heare not of a Church of Saints in heauen but of a Church in earth w●…etd they may ioyne themselues what shoulde we talke of the Church in heauen They would rather knowe I am sure of what Church they are here Aske them Fulke Wel then you are found recreant in this paynt openly to sclaunder our definition to be such as should take away the nature of the Church in that we make it inuisible and now when it commeth to the tryall you will not deale with the Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen but with a part of it to witte that which is vpon earth which wee neuer denyed in some sense to be alwayes visible because it consisteth of men vpō earth although it be not alwayes seene because it is oftentimes hidden from the worlde and sometimes also from the true members thereof But this Church vpon earth you wil haue to be alwaies visible Seeing therefore you giue ouer y● defence of your slaūder of our definition of the Catholike Church which we came prepared to maintaine we are ready also to reason of the church militāt Campion The state of the question is that the Church militant vpon earth can not be hidden but it is alwayes knowen so that a man may vnderstand of what Church he is c. Fulke The case may be such as a member can know no more but himselfe what meane you by visible Campion I meane to be visible is to knowe one another to meete at Sacraments when I can tell that I am of this church and you of that I a Catholike and you a Protestant as I certainely know there is a Church in Fraunce a church in Spaine and in Flaunders though I be farre from it and we may knowe one another a member can say This is my pastor these are my prelates and gouernours This is playne I would to God I had one also to write for me I pray you let me not be mistaken for I haue had great wrong that wayes and thinges haue bene put in print that I neuer spake or meant Fulke If we haue this discoursing we shal neuer haue done I would you would be briefe I will prooue from a place of scripture that the church militant vnderstanding visible as you say is not alwayes visible in earth Elias complaineth that he was left alone c. Ergo the Church was not then visible Campion I deny the Antecedent further declare the meaning of the place which maketh altogether for me For Elias setteth out the schismatical church of the Samaritanes In this schismaticall church a member being driuen out as sometime it falleth out to be the worlde turning and changing he might not know the rest but yet knew there were 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal Agayne you must not bring a particular to ouerthrowe a generall There were none there therefore

there were none in other places But this place is an excellent place against you For as the Prophet complained there so we may iustly complaine now O Lord they haue forsaken thy couenāt they haue destroyed thine altars and slayne thy prophetes with the sword and I am left alone c. Yet no doubt there were many as for example I might haue complayned of Geneua when I was there that I had bene alone not knowing of any other Catholike there Were all the Protestants in England in Queene Maries time gone were there none and are all Catholikes nowe gone Whatsoeuer they bee I knowe certainely there is a Church in Fraunce c. And so then there was a florishing church in Iudea vnder Asa and Iehosaphat whither Elias was flying for succour and reliefe c. Fulke I thought wee should haue discoursing You declare your selfe vtterly ignorant in all this matter For where were these wordes spoken Cāp They were spokē as he was flying into Iudea to y● church whither he knew to repaire teaching vs what to do in y● like case Fulke That is not true they were spoken in mount Horeb as he was in the wildernes after he was fled from the persecution of Iezebel when she had determined his death Campion The text is playne Venitque Beersebae Iudeae c. He came to Beerseba of Iudea c. Fulke His flight was into the wildernes Beersheba was in his way where he left his seruant so went forward into the wildernes For Beersheba was the vtmost towne in Iudea towards Horeb both Beersheba the wildernes of Arabia were from Iudea towards Horeb. And therefore the text sayth Ipse verò perexit He went forward c. continuing his iourney to the wildernesse and therefore it is not true you sayd he went into Iudea to ioyne himselfe with the Church or to seeke reliefe there Campion But his complaynt was of a particular place for the Church florished in Iudea vnder two notable kinges Asa and Iehosaphat And when he sayeth Ego solus he meaneth that hee was the onely prophet that was left c. Fulke This answere cannot stand with the oracle which pronounceth that God had left 7000. true worshippers Wherefore it is manifest that Elias thought himselfe the onely true worshipper that was left in Israel except you will say there were 7000. prophets whereof he was ignorant But ye answere y● the church was then so visible that he knew whither to resort But I will proue y● the church of Iudea vnto which y● cōgregation of Israel if they be a true church must be ioyned was so inuisible at some time that it had not so much as the face of a church whither any mā in Elias case might resort It is written 2. king 16. that vnder y● raigne of Achas there was taken a paterne of the Altar of the idolaters of Damascus that Vrias the high Priest remoued the Altar of the Lord. Whereby it appeareth that the priesthoode was corrupted the altar was remoued and the sacrifices vtterly ceased c. Campion That might well bee For there might be such a time and the case might so fall out that there could be no exercise of the priestly function yet it might remaine visible ynough c. Fulke Uery wel what visibilitie could there be in those daies of Achas Manasses and such like when there was no face at all of an outward Church neither in the head nor in the members whē the high Priest was become an idolater How could they knowe whither to resort the Temple being defiled and the priesthoode it selfe so defiled with idolatrie c. Camp What meane you by the face of a Church It might for all this be knowen though they could not exercise their function Fulke How could that be when there was no outward forme of a Church it fayled in the head in the chiefe in the members There was no place for their publike sacrifices seeing that only place to which they were bounde to resort was defiled with heathenish idolatrie For it must be there and no where else And I doubt not but there were particular members that were knowen to God or might knowe one another yet was there not a visible Church as you determine of the worde visible to be when men know their pastors prelates and the place whither to resort c. Campion I say the dayes were as these dayes are nowe to Catholikes or as they were to you in the daies of Queene Mary to them that are in prison yet we know there were protestants left and those that were in prison knew well inough to resort vnto them that were abroade and so of the Catholikes though nowe Masse be forbidden and the execution of their priesthood yet Catholikes know Catholikes and whither to resort for the exercise of Catholike religion Fulke But in Iudaea they knewe not whither to resort when the temple it selfe was defiled where onely by the law of God the sacrifice was appoynted to be offered Therefore although there were a Church then yet it could not be visible Camp Reade the wordes The kinges of Iuda were as our kings as I said before the times turned there was many changes But doeth this follow there is no church in England where Masse is said which I dare say many catholikes loue would go a great way to heare with all their hearts Ergo there are no Catholikes in England They had no open Cōmunions in Queene Maries time ergo there were none c. Fulke You make bolde cōparisons you cloye vs with wordes and goe from the matter We say not that the Church could euer perish out of the earth for one moment of time or that they were not because they were not seene but wee saye against your assertion the Church in Iudaea was not visible because there was neither place nor sacrifice nor high Priest c. The Priest was wicked the Temple was defiled c. Nowe all kingdomes may professe religion and haue their exercises thereof in all places though they could not doe so in Iudaea Campion You haue made a good argument for mee Master Doctor I will knit it vp with this though they might onely exercise in the Temple yet we may euery where and though Elias sawe them not yet there were thousandes so though it be not permitted now to say Masse publikely and to exercise our functions yet there are thousandes Fulke Here is nothing but repetitions All this is not denied but where is the visibilitie of this Church vpon earth knowen to men as for God he alwayes knoweth them that are his when the head Pastor and the only place of exercise of Iewish religion was corrupt Campion And yet there was Tobias in Israel and other Fulke That is not the matter it was not visible because they had no other place to exercise in but the Temple at Ierusalem which at these times was

polluted the very Aultar of God being remoued and an idolatrous altar set in the place Campion That is not alike for we haue our functions free we may sacrifice euery where say Masse vpon euery mountaine Fulke Like enough for that matter But there was not so much as an outward face of the Church the high Priest being an Idolater and the true Altar taken away and therefore there could bee no visibilitie You answere nothing to the matter but abuse the presence with multitude of wordes and therefore committing the iudgement to them that be wise and learned I will giue place vnto my brother Mast. D. Goade Concerning the short warning the case is al one with vs as it was with you we had no longer deliberation thē you had litle aboue one dayes space concerning the question and therefore you haue no cause to complaine c. Campion What shall I call your worships name Goade My name is Goade Campion Yes that may appeare by this preparation as it were to a set and solemne thing these bookes also declare besides the bringing of a writer with you c. Goade Well all these concerne not the matter you had word assone as we and were so made acquainted with the question as it was of your own choice c. but in deede you are gone from the state of the question against which we came prepared being of the whole Catholike Church as your owne booke doth importe and it is apparant that you haue wrongfully challenged our definition being as hath bene truely sayd of the Church in general wel we must I see now followe whether you leade vs. We must leaue the Catholike Church and talke of the militant Church the generall goe to a particular One thing before I ioyne with you I woulde wish you to forbeare namely your dealing with the present state and personall speaches it will better beseeme modestie and pertaine more to the matter we haue in hande c. which may be performed with lesse waste of wordes and more humilitie You answere not to the report I haue heard of you for modest behauing your selfe in conference Campion Concerning my selfe I will lay my handes vnder your feete but I must not hūble God to you you know who saith Ne sis humilis in sapientia tua be not humble in thy wisedome I must with courage mainteine religion Haec est sapientia vestra coram populo this is your wisdome before the people c. I must not be prayed in religion Goade Howe fitly those places of Scripture are applied I will not now stande to discusse but concerning the state of the question as your selfe set it downe you are fallen from it And the Church euen as it is vpon earth being but a part of the Catholike Church I will proue sometime to be hidden But what meane you when you write that it must be of the nature of the Church to be visible Campion I meane that it must be an essentiall marke of the Church and such a qualitie as is inseparable It must be as visible as fire is hote water moist c. Goade Uery good but as you vnderstande this qualitie of visibilitie you declare your selfe to dissente from others of your side who by visible vnderstand a notable glorious Church who hath her beautie and pompe as your Bristow writeth her continuall succession of Bishops c. Campion That same outward pompe and glorie may be wāting and yet the Church be visible inough I woulde bee loth to medle with that question of succession You knowe why I woulde not willingly deale in it Goade Well as hath bene proued out of the olde testament that there was a time when the Church militant was hidden so will I proue it out of the newe There was a time when our Sauiour Christ being smitten and all the rest of the Apostles scattered and hidden that visibilitie was not an inseperable qualitie ergo this qualitie is not alwayes inseparable Campion I denie the Antecedent Goade I thinke any here might proue the Antecedent the storie of that time sheweth it plaine The face of the visible Church was then not in Christ his Apostles but in the Iewes amongst the Scribes and Pharisees they had the succession of the Priesthoode and held the chaires Christ was crucified put to death and buried the Apostles scattered and fled into holes and corners so that if visibilitie be such a certaine marke of the true Church then the high Priestes Scribes and Pharises were the true Church and not our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles Campion It was a Church in choate beginning not perfect Goade Therefore it was at sometime hidden c. namely in the beginning of the Church where was then this visibilitie Campion In the virgin Marie Zacharie Iohn Baptiste Peter c. Goade What shewe you me these to proue the Church visible who was Pastor when the Pastor was smitten and killed who occupied the chaires where was the outward face of the Church which you will haue to be so glorious and where was the Pastor and outward exercise of Religion Campion I haue said before that it is not necessarie it should haue alwayes that outward pompe and glorie In the beginning it is not apparant as afterwards Goade Ergo there is a time when it may be hidden Campion Not hidden for they were gathered together It was in deede pusillus grex a litle flocke but proue that it was not visible Goade Because you make light accompt of these times as being but the beginnings of the Church let vs goe on to the proceedings and encrease In those great persecutions vnder the cruell Emperours the Church became hidde and inuisible ergo visibilitie is not an inseparable marke specially in thee time of Dioclesian Christians were so wasted as to the iudgement of mē there were none remaining their bookes were burnt their churches destroyed and them selues put to death with sondrie tormentes Camp You answere your selfe For against whom was this ●…secutiō so hot against whom fought they were they shadowes I am sure there were Christians or els they could not haue stoode forth to haue endured those tormentes but I coulde shewe you Rome in that time Some escaped till Constantines time much about three and twenty yeeres All were not eaten vp for then euery man would be a Christian and well was he that could shewe him self so I could name you the Bishop of Rome that then was Goade But in the ende after that great hauocke was made and crueltie had wasted all that could be founde where was then the visible Church In the ende it was enforced to be hidden It had lost that which you say must needes be of the nature of it the glorie of it was so eclipsed that it shined no where Campion It was most visible then and most glorious and not long after when Constantine came al were Christiās Wherby it appeareth that diuers remained

but because of these hearers wee should seeke most for edification and it is the speciall cause of our meeting Goade Thus then I reason This speciall place alleadged by those of your side can not be vnderstoode of the Church Ergo it proues not this visibilitie Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade I would be glad for the better waying of this place that you would remember what your selfe hath written concerning the finding out of the sense of any place of Scripture in the second chapter of your booke I would you had bene as reasonable in other thinges of your booke and then we should haue agreed better for the rule is very good to helpe to the true sense that the circumstances of the place be considered the wordes that goe before that followe after the scope the clauses and whole context Nowe both out of that which goeth before and of that which followeth out of the whole scope and drift of the place it is euident to be spoken onely of the Apostles and their successors in the ministerie Ergo it is onely to be vnderstoode of them and not of the whole Church Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade Whatsoeuer is spoken properly of the Apostles doctrine and life can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church But this is properly spoken of their doctrine and life Therefore it can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church Campion You must not petere principium It was not onely spoken in respect of the Apostles function but of y● who le church no otherwise then as the Apostles were Christians including the whole Church Goade Then that commaundement Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this spoken to the Apostles much more must include the whole Church being spoken of the sacrament which appertaineth to all and yet ye exclude the people from the cuppe Campion This was not spoken to them as they were Christians but in respect of their function as they were priestes the other was spoken as they were Christians Goade Neither of these is true but briefely deny one part of my argument Campion I deny the minor Goade Out of the circumstāces of the place and conclusion it is manifest that it is properly spoken of the Apostles doctrine and life and not of the whole Church Consider the wordes Vos estis sal terrae You are the salt of the earth Vos estis lux mundi c. You are the light of the worlde Non potest ciuitas abscondi c. A citie can not be hid Then the conclusion Sic luceat lux vestra So let your light shine c. You are the salt of the earth noteth the Apostles doctrine wherwith they should seasō others You are the light of the worlde noteth their life whereupon all mens eyes are cast and so can no more be hid then a citie vpon an hill Both these poyntes are proper to the ministerie and hereupon the conclusion inferred So let your light shine c. Campion You haue very well answered your selfe For the text conteineth both There is the salt and the earth the light and the world who must season and who must be seasoned who must shine and to whom they must shine Do you not see plainely that he includeth both the teachers and them that are taught c. Goade Nowe you fall to discoursing cleane besides the purpose It is true that the one can not be without the other but yet it is playne that to season to lighten and to be set as vpon an hill is proper alone to the Apostles and their ministerie For the drift and scope of the place is onely to set forth the Apostles doctrine conuersation and you violently wrest it to the whole Church The life of the ministerie is as it were set vpon an high stage the light of their conuersation is looked vnto of all what is this to the visibilitie of the whole Church Campion Uery wel doth a candle shine to it selfe and is not a master of a familie a Master and that which is spoken to him may it not be sayd also to them Goade I pray you howe holdeth this argument The life and doctrine of the ministerie is as it were set vpon a stage for all men to looke vnto and therefore they are called the salte of the earth the light of the worlde Ergo the whole Church is visible This is the force of your argument from this place Camp I haue sayd the text maketh not for you It is not vnderstoode of their ministerie and life only as they were Apostles but as they were Christians Goade As I haue proued this out of the text so nowe I will shewe this to be the sense out of the Fathers both Chrysostome and Ierome vpon the place Campion You may spare your labour you shall neuer finde Doctor that vnderstandeth it onely of the ministerie I tell you that aforehand Goade Yes I will shew out of Chrysostome that it is onely vnderstoode of the ministerie and of their life in the afternoone according to your request the place shal be shewed Campion It is a common and an vsuall kinde of speache to vtter that to the master which is meant to the seruants Goade Wil you beleeue none but your selfe hearken what Saint Hierome sayth vpon this place Campion Yes if you would beleeue Hierome as well as I we should be soone agreed What thinke you is Hierome of your religion would you be of his Goade I would not be of any mans religion to buylde vpon man I holde neither of one nor other but of Christ and grounde my religion onely vpon his worde But remember your strong place you spake of to proue the perpetual visibilitie of the church Let vs heare what it is Campion Shall I then haue one argument Goade Yea let vs heare it you shal be answered though it be not your part to oppose Campion It is out of Matthew chap. 18. Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church I will proue out of this place that the Church of necessitie must continually be visible I proue it thus This is a commaundement that is perpetuall and must be alwayes executed in the Church But that can not be vnlesse the Church be visible Ergo the visibilitie of the Church is continuall Goade I distinguish of the maior When the Church is gathered may retaine a face when it doeth-execute gouernment hath a consistorie to heare matters then it ought to be done but this cannot be alwayes had being often hindered by persecution Camp Offences betweene brother brother happen alwaies and this is the medicine and remedy There is no age wherein there are not offences where shal I seeke the perpetual remedy that is appointed vnles the Church be perpetually visible Goade I haue said before Whē there is a state an established Church this remedy is to be sought for But this cannot alwaies be had because the militant afflicted church oftentimes

faith being of things that are not seene You haue graunted many absurdities this daye while you labour to defende that the Church on earth is alwayes visible And now the conclusion is worst of al that the visible Church for which you are so earnest is proued to be no article of faith Campion Why may not a man see yet beleeue Peter sawe him whom he beleeued saying thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God c. Fulke That which hee sawe of Christ was experimentall knowledge but that which he confessed Christ to be the sonne of God was of faith and not of sense For flesh and blood reuealed it not vnto him but God from heauen That which Peter sawe of Christ with his bodily eyes was seene of many vnbeleeuing Iewes and of Iudas the traytor but his confession which came of faith he had not by bodily sight but by diuine reuelation It is not of faith to see men which are the members of the Church but to see them as they are members of the Church that is of faith therfore that which is seene of the Church is not of faith Camp Why you said the Church might be seene by experimentall faith as Peter sawe Christ and beleeued Fulke When said I so Campion Euen now when you spake of Peter Fulk I neuer thought it much lesse did I speake it It is needfull there should be writing els I see you would outface the matter I said the cleane contrarie That which Peter sawe of Christ was experimentall knowledge and not faith that which he beleeued and confessed he sawe not Euen so I say that which we beleeue and confesse in our Creede of the Catholike Church wee neither do see neither can we see Campion I can see the whole world though I cannot see it all at once so I can see the Catholike Church in her parts although I cannot see it all at once or in one place Fulke Whatsoeuer you can see at seuerall times and in seuerall places of the Catholike Church is no article of faith For that which we beleeue of the Catholike Church is not seene at any time or in any place Campion That is true Fulke Ergo the whole Catholike Church and euery part thereof as it is of faith is not visible Here Campion of himselfe brake vp Campion Shall we meete againe It were to be considered of what question we shall talke Here question being made what point they should deale vpon and being asked whether he would defend the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ he denied to medle therein as being daungerous vnles leaue might be obtained of her Maiesties most honourable Counsail Then being demanded whether he woulde deale with that question in the after noone Whether the Church might erre he consented the company present agreeing therunto And so the houre was appointed at two of the clocke after dinner the Replyers hauing no longer time to prouide their arguments In the after noone ❧ The Question whether the visible Church may erre FIrst because promise was made in the forenoone that those places which were omitted should bee shewed D. Goade brought forth his place out of Chrysostome vpon Math. 5. Rursus eos per ista ad bene viuendum ac diligetiam cohortatur ostendens vt studeant esse soliciti quasiante omniū oculos constituti in medio orbis terrarum theatro Nolite inquit aspicere quia in isto nunc residemus loco in exigua sumus parte certaminis Sic enim eritis manifesti cunctis quemadmodum ciuitas in montis vertice collocata vel sicut lucerna in domo super candelabrū relucens Againe by these things he exhorteth them by diligence of well liuing that they might stande to be carefull as they that are set before all mens eyes and in the middest of the Theatre of the whole world Do not you regarde saith he that we remaine nowe in this place and are but in a small part of our battle for you shal be so manifest to all men as a citie placed vpon the top of a hill or as a candle shining in a house vpon a candlestick c. Here you see by the iudgement of Chrysostome expounding the place that it onely respecteth the Apostles which you denied to day For he exhorteth them to liue well as those that are set in the sight and eyes of all and therefore must be carefull howe they beare them selues vpon that open stage of the whole worlde being as a citie vpon an hill Campion The place is nothing against me for it pertaineth to the whole Church Doth Chrysostome cōtrarie any thing spoken by me doeth not their function their faith and religion their place shew that this is not spoken onely to them Goade These are but wordes It is plaine hee noteth their doctrine by the salte and their conuersation by the light Campion He speaketh not any thing contrarie to that which I haue said Goade Yes you say the place meaneth the whole Church to proue the visibilitie thereof as a citie set vpon an hill can not bee hidde Whereas Chrysostome interpreteth it of the Ministerie onely as is manifest by the word Salt the whole drift of the place Campion Of all other first it belongeth to the Prelates then to their flockes as I haue shewed you by the example of a Master of a familie Goade It belongeth in deede to the flocke also to liue well but this place is not directed vnto them It is absurde against the whole scope of the place to make a general conclusion from a particular from the Apostles to the whole Church Campion The Apostles were faithfull they include the whole Church as they were Christians and not Apostles Goade Why then that which was spoken to the Apostles was likewise spoken to the Church But it was said to the Apostles Drinke you all of this ergo to the whole Church Campion That was personall and in respect of their functiō he spake onely in respect of those that were present but there was none present but the Apostles like that which was saide to the Apostles Go ye and preach to all nations baptizing c. doeth he therefore commande the people also to preache and minister the Sacraments Goade The rase is farre vnlike The receauing of the Sacramentes belong to all Christians they must all receaue And though preaching the word and ministring in respect of the funetion be onely appropriate to the Apostles and Ministers yet the word and Sacraments are commō to al Christians So by manifest difference it appeareth that the commādement Go preach is personall belonging to one calling and the commandement Drinke ye all of this is generall to all the faithfull Campion There is no place in the institution that cōmandes the common people to drinke or not to drinke Goade The Apostle the best interpreter of Christes institution applieth it to the whole Church 1. Cor. 11. verse 23. That

can not be suffered to exercise this medicine of holsome discipline Camp The disease is continuall ergo the remedy is continual I must tell my Prelates where shal I tel thē if they be not Goade The remedy is continually necessary holsome but can not cōtinually be vsed Diuers most necessary things are not alwayes in vse It is most necessary the Gospel should be cōtinually preached it is Christes commandement yet this oftentime fayleth as in persecution whē the church is driuen into streights and the publique exercise of the worde restrained I deny your argument It is alwayes necessary therefore it is alwayes in vse and practise Many other necessary thinges are wanting many times that ought to be and yet this taketh them not away neither maketh them vayne or vnnecessary c. Campion The disease is common it is perpetual To whom shoulde I haue gone before Luthers time What Prelats should I haue made my complaint vnto in those dayes I must tell my Pastor c. Goade You are answered that in times of persecution this coulde not be and specially in those times of generall Apostacie foretolde by the Apostle 2. Thess. 2. this could not be practised no more then the true preaching of the worde You deale straungely with vs. When you had shut vs in prison embrewed your handes with our blood driuē the true Church as it were into the wildernesse through your grieuous persecutions and tyrannies so as there coulde be no meetings for publike exercise of religion then you aske where was our Church and to whome we shoulde haue gone before Luthers times Campion Where was your Church for 900. yeeres agoe Whose were Iohn Husse Hierome of Prage the Waldenses c. Were they yours Helpe him Master Doctor Fulke It needeth not this is beside the matter your place is answered The remedy is not ydle or vayne though sometimes men are restrayned from the vse of it Cyprian complayneth aboue 1200. yeeres agoe that for the great persecution that was against the Church they could not meete so often as they desired to execute discipline and yet who will deny but the discipline of the Church is perpetuall It must be vsed when it may bee had A medicine is not an idle medicine in the Apothecaries shoppe nor Galens prescription thereof is vayne because sometimes it can not be had Campion Though of some at sometimes it cannot be had in one place yet it may be had in another There may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it but if I wil seeke it I may finde it Fulke The words are spoken generally to euery man Si peccauerit aduersus●…te frater If thy brother offend against thee c and yet euery man can not obteyne it You that are in prison what Church can you tell if you bee offended will you say the remedy is vayne because you can not vse it Againe there are meane remedies before a man come to this that he should tell the Church hee must first giue priuate admonition and before witnesses which euery man can not do that is offended As to whom shoulde Elias haue complayned when hee knewe none but himselfe Therefore it is no more necessary that there should be a visible Church alwayes to complayne vnto then it is necessary that euery man should alwayes bee able to admonish priuately or to haue two or three witnesses to call vnto him Againe you aunswere your selfe that there may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it Therefore it was very yll concluded of you that if a man can not alwayes haue a visible Church to make his complaynt vnto the remedie prescribed by our Sauiour Christ is vayne or idle And concerning the name Ecclesia in that text when it is sayde we should tell the Church ye abuse the audience for it meaneth not the whole Church but the consistorie and eldershippe that haue the gouernement of euery particular congregation For howe can a man tell the whole Church on earth or yet the whole parish where he dwelleth but he may tell the company of Elders and gouernors when such are established to haue the execution of discipline and this also may be interrupted by persecution Campion Master Doctor you haue sayde well for mee the worde Ecclesia is taken for the gouernours of the Church and they are alwayes in sight In what place of the Scripture is the worde Ecclesia taken for an inuisible Church you can shewe mee no place Shewe mee one place shewe mee one place if you can Fulke I can shew you a great many But because you call so earnestly for one I will shew you one It is taken for the whole body of the Church therefore for an inuisible church in the first chapter to the Ephesians in the latter ende where the Apostle sayeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And he appoynted him head ouer all thinges vnto his Church which is his body and the fulnes of him which filleth all in all So that it is taken for the whole Catholike Church as it containeth all the elect of God those that haue bene are and shal be c. which vniuersall Church is inuisible Campion I graunt it is there taken for the Church triumphant and militant Fulke Ergo it is there taken for an inuisible Church For we speake of it as it conteyneth euery member and is the whole body of Christ whereof some are yet vnborne Campion I graunt it of the whole but the Church militant is visible the other inuisible Fulke But the Catholike Church of Christ being the body of Christ is mysticall ergo insensible Campion Prooue it according to all partes to bee inuisible Fulke It is sufficient for mee to prooue that the Catholike Church which is the whole body of Christ is mystical therfore it is inuisible I speake of the Catholike Church as it is an article of faith For wee beleeue the Catholike Church according to the articles of faith Nowe fayth is of things which are not seene ergo the Catholike Church is inuisible Campion I knowe that the whole Catholike Church and euery part of the same as it is of faith is inuisible but what is this to the Church militant Fulke You vrged me to shewe a place where the word Ecclesia is taken for an inuisible Church and I haue shewed you that it is taken for an inuisible Church wheresoeuer it is taken for the Catholike Church which you confesse to be inuisible both in the whole and euery part Campion So farre as it is of faith Fulke And we speake of it as it is of faith For the whole Catholike Church being an article of fayth is considered no otherwise then as it is of faith neither any part thereof by your owne confession whereof it followeth that the visible Church for which you striue so much is no article of our faith because it is seen

erre about the matter of resurrectiō the church of Galatia about the matter of iustificatiō Camp The Apostle though he wrote to all yet he meaneth but some fewe of them And what are these to the whole Church being but particular churches the militant Church of Christ cōprehendeth y● who le nūber of churches on earth As for y● error of y● church of Galatia it was no otherwise reproued then as preachers are wōt to reproue who are wōt to rebuke al for some y● are faulty Goade In deede you say some thing concerning that of Corinth I grant that the error was not so generall For he said Quidā inter vos c. Certaine amongst you c. But for the Galathians it was otherwise For the whole Church was iustly reproued according to that O you foolish Galathians who hath be witched you that you should not beleeue the truthe These wholy fell were not particular mēbers but whole Churches planted by the Apostles them selues replenished with speciall giftes of the holy Ghost And if these faded in the Apostles time in so great a matter what priuilege haue any other churches since y● they shuld not likewise erre so cōsequētly what priuilege hath y● militāt church Camp Make your argument then we shal see what ye will conclude Goade So then I make mine argument Whatsoeuer congregation doth erre in matters of faith is not the true Church But the Church of Rome erreth in matters of faith Ergo the Church of Rome is not the true Church Campion This is from the question M. Lieutenant might doe well to put vs in minde of the question Goad I remember the question well I bring an instance according to your meaning because you in saying that the Church cānot erre meane y● the church of Rome cānot erre this priuilege agreeth not to y● church of Rome which you say is y● true Church Campion I deny your Minor The Church of Rome hath not erred You suppose the Church of Rome to be y● true Church and I beleeue it Goad In deed I only suppose it for disputatiōs sake beleue it not but y● errors are infinit I should weary my self al y● company to rehearse many I omit inferior errors of lesse waight and moment and come to those that shake the foundation of faith Campion We shall then runne into all controuersies bring some proper errour that I my selfe shall coufesse to bee an errour that the church of Rome holdeth Goade Why a general must be taken away by particulars Campion That is true Goade Then I reason thus It hath erred and doeth erre in the foundation touching saluation by Christ Ergo it is subiect to errour Campion It doeth not God forbid it should But if you will properly proue it hath erred shewe me that some generall Councill hath erred Goade Well I will followe you in this poynt The Councill of Trent hath erred in m●…ny poyntes of doctrine and namely in the matter of iustification ergo a generall Council hath erred Campion I deny the Antecedent c. Goade It ascribech whole or part of righteousnesse to be inherent in our selues But this is an errour Ergo it errcth in iustification c. The very words I do not remember but this is the effect of the doctrine that Inhaerens iustitia est pars iustificationis That inherent righteousnesse is a part of iustification Campion The Councill hath no such wordes or if it haue it doth not ascribe any thing to righteousnes cleauing in our selues as of our selues but as giuen of God In deede it is in vs but as y● gift of God As there are vertues faith hope charity which must be in vs seruing to this righteousnes which yet are not of vs. Goade Whatsoeuer is in vs that must iustifie vs before the iust iudgement of God must be perfect But our righteousnes is not perfect Ergo our righteousnes cānot either in whole or part iustifie vs. Campion I answere your Maior it must be perfect according to that perfection that God requireth of vs in this life Goade This is most corrupt For God wil haue a perfect vndefiled righteousnes such as he hath set downe in his own law Qui fecerit c. He that shall do them shal liue in them Gal. 3. Againe Maledictus est omnis qui non permanserit in omnibus quae scripta sunt in libro Legis vt faciat ea c. Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in that booke to doe them c. Campion I say God doeth not exact such a perfect righteousnesse according to the lawe for we are deliuered from that by Christ c. Goade Then we must rest on Christ alone but if we will be iustified by any part of righteousnes in our selues it must be perfect For Gods iustice alloweth no vnperfect righteousnes Doe you thinke you can fulfill this law c. Campion Yea that I can Goade Can you loue God aboue all things your neighbour as your selfe Can you loue him with all your heart with all your soule and with all your strength Campion I can For when I preferre God before all things and loue him chiefely I loue him aboue all Fulke Note that Blasphemous absurditie Goade If a man may fulfill the lawe to iustification then Christ dyed in vayne Campion What now shall we haue hissing c. Goade Sure it is worthy of hissing and of blusshing too if you had any feare of God before your eyes or conscience I praye God make you to vnderstand the absurdities that you holde that you may be ashamed of them and renounce them Campion Why is euery motion to sinne deadly sinne c. Goade You are like the Pharisee that thought the keeping of the law to consist in the outward letter What say you is not cōcupiscence the motions of the flesh against y● law of God sinne Campion No that they are not for if I being tempted refraine my selfe and when I haue a motion to euill bridle my selfe from it as if I see my neyghbours goods and haue a motion to steale and do not do I not herein loue my neighbour as my selfe If a man bee in the Queenes Iewell house where he may take some precious thing and bridle himselfe of it and abstaine shall this man be condemned What wil you cōdemne a man for euery litle tentation It is a good thing to be tempted c. Iam. 1. Blessed is he that endureth temptation Goade Ye abuse the place For it is vnderstode of afflictions And as for concupiscence it is the transgression of the law Thou shalt not lust ergo it is sinne But I will leaue this as impertinent to the purpose Consider that notable place in the ende of the fift chapter to the Corinth Epist. 2. Him that knewe no sinne he made sinne for vs that we might be made the righteousnesse of God in him not in

the matter that he had in hand Goad You answere not the argument Thus I vrge it briefly Christ is now present with his Church only touching his spirit and grace Ergo he is no way present touching his body Mine argument you see is grounded vpon Augustines plaine wordes opposing the one presence to the other Secundum presentiam maiestatis semper habemus Christum c. Campion He compareth these two together how he was present to his Apostles and how to vs he talketh generally of an vsuall presence as euery māmay haue Christ present by prayer c. Goad And he maketh Christ present to vs none other way but by his maiestie and inuisible grace and touching all presence of his flesh saith it is true me ye shall not haue alwaies I pray you would or durst Augustine so haue written in so plaine wordes absolutely to allowe onely of Christes presence by his grace denying that touching his bodily presence we should not alwaies haue him with vs if Christ any way were still bodily present vpon earth Camp Yea I warrant you being rightly vnderstoode For he opposeth his presence then and his presence now not any more according to visible conuersation And so your argument ye woulde make out of Augustine is not good Goad You vse not to answere the point of the argument but your manner is to holde you stil to one shifting distinction though it be often taken away Your kinde of answering is not onely against learning but against common sence Fulke I will take an other argument If Christ be present in the sacrament in his naturall body he is present in truth and in deede not onely in a signifying misterie But he is not present in the sacrament in truth and in deede but onely in a signifying misterie Ergo he is not present in his naturall body Cam. I denie your Minor he is present in the truth of his body Fulke I proue it out of the Canon Lawe De Consecratione Distinct. 2. cap. Hoc est Sicut ergo caelestis panis qui Christi caro est suo modo vocatur corpus Christi cum reuera sit sacramentū corporis Christi illius videlicet quod visibile quodpalpabile mortale in cruce positū est vocaturque ipsa immolatio carnis quae sacerdotismanibus fit Christi passio mors crucifixio non rei veritate sed significante mysterio sic Sacramentum fidei quod Baptismus intelligitur fides est●… Therefore euen as the heauenly bread which is the flesh of Christ after a peculiar maner is called the body of Christ when in deede it is the Sacrament of the body of Christ to wit of that body which being visible which being palpable being mortal was put on the crosse and euen that immolation of the fleshe which is done by the Priests handes is called the passion death crucifixion of Christ not in trueth of the thing but in a signifying mystery so the Sacrament of faith which is vnderstoode to be baptisme is faith And the Gloss. hereupon sayth Coelestis c. id est Coeleste Sacramentum quod ver è repraesentat Christi carnem dicitur corpus Christi sed impropriè vnde dicitur suo modo sed non rei veritate sed significante mysterio Vt sit sensus Vocatur corpus Christi idest significat The heauēly bread that is the heauenly Sacrament which truely representeth the flesh of Christ is called the body of Christ but vnproperly whereupon it is sayd by a peculiar maner but not in the trueth of the thing but in a signifying mystery So that the sense is It is called the body of Christ that is it signifieth it Camp All this maketh for transubstantiation That which we see is called the body of Christ where in deede it is but the colour and the accidents Fulke All makes for you but let vs see whether you can so runne away with the matter He saith Coelestis panis the heauenly bread can the colour or accidents be called the heauenly bread Campion The meaning is of the accidents and of the signe Fulke This is a straunge proposition color or accidens is coelestis panis Campion It is called Coelestis panis because it is heauenly bread by consecration Fulke That can not be For he calleth that heauenly breade which is the fleshe of Christ and after the maner of it the body of Christ But accidents are not the flesh of Christ nor the body of Christ Ergo they are not the heauenly bread Campion If you respect the qualitie it is the heauenly bread by consecration Fulke It seemeth you knowe not the place the Glosse sayth the heauenly bread which is the heauenly Sacrament is called vnproperly the body of Christ not in trueth of the thing but in a signifying mysterie Camp Saint Augustine there speaketh popularly You bewray your slender reading of Augustine in citing this as Gratians authoritie Fulke It is Gratian in the decrees of your owne Canon law and the Glosse thereupon In deede the decree is borowed of Augustine but it is more fully against the carnall presence as it is cited by Gratian. Campion I will answere both Gratian and the Glosse Fulke Set it downe then in few wordes Campion It is called coelestis in respect of consecration and transubstantiation bread in respect that it is bread wine in outwarde shewe and for the accidents it is called Sacramentum the Sacrament in respect that vnder those outward shewes the naturall body of Christ is present Fulke So you vnderstand the sacrament which is denyed to be the body of Christ in trueth of the thing to be the accidents but it is absurd that accidents should be called the heauenly bread Campion It is not absurd if it be heauenly vnderstood but accidents visibly considered of themselues import absurditie Fulke The Sacrament is the outward shewe which is not the body of Christ. I will proue that he taketh the worde Sacrament for the whole Sacrament not for the accidents as you doe Campion He speakes of the whole Fulke He speaketh of the whole and not of the whole this is manifest contradiction Campion The worde Sacrament is here taken for the exterior formes and not for the whole Sacrament Fulke I proue it must be taken for the whole Sacrament els it could not be compared with Baptisme But it is compared with Baptisme Ergo he taketh it for the whole Sacrament Camp Your maior I answere He compareth the element of the sacramēt of the altar with the elemēt of water in baptisme Fulke He speaketh of the whole Sacrament of Baptisme which is called faith euen as the heauenly bread is called the Sacrament of Christ But the water of Baptisme is not called faith Ergo he speaketh of the whole Sacrament Campion He respecteth the externall signes and compareth signes with signes Fulke That which he spoke of is called the body of Christ But the accidents are not called the body of Christ Ergo