loosed in heauen and what she did bind in earth shoulde bee bound in heauen to witte that whosoeuer would not beleeue his sinnes might bee forgiuen in the Church should not haue them forgiuen and whosoeuer would beleeue it and depart from his sinnes by amending his life in the bosome of the same Church shoulde by that faith and conuersion be healed And neuer writer since Christs time did euer extend the power of the keyes vnto any thing saue vnto the forgiuing and retayning of sinnes Phi. No more doe wee this onely we adde that when Princes are bounde in earth for their sinnes they loose that interest which they had in their kingdomes Theo. That position you vndertooke to proue by the holy Scriptures but as yet you be wide you still suppose it and doe not proue it Phi. Now in the newe Testament all Christes sheepe without exception bee they Princes be they poore if they be Christian men are put to Peters feeding gouernement Now the keyes of heauen be deliuered to Christs Vicar in earth to let in to locke out to bind to loose to punish to pardon Now we be coÌ„manded euery one be we kings be we Caesars to obey our Prelats and Pastors and to bee subiect to them as to those that must make accompt to God for our soules wherein what Christian Prince may except himselfe Theo. You role from text to text abusing the woordes and peruerting the sense as you goe and when all is saide you bee euen as neere as you were at first before you began For what if al these places do concerne Princes as well as others wil you thence inferre that princes may be deposed Then these must be your argumentes Princes must bee taught ergo Princes may bee deposed Prieâ—tes may exclude them from the kingdom of heauen ergo likewise from their kingdomes on earth Princes must obey sounde doctrine comming from their Pastours mouthes ergo if they refuse they may be deposed Surely such reasons set not them besides their seates but you rather besides your wittes for what apparance of trueth haue these ridiculous and impious mockeries Feede my sheepe that is depose Princes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdom of heauen that is I will giue thee the thrones of earthly kinges Be aduised by your leaders and yeeld to their good perswasions for they watch ouer your soules that is obey the Pope when he thrusteth you from your goods landes and liues Had you but one dramme of shame or sense in you you woulde neuer sende vs such sottish and vnsauorie sequeles Phi. They be of your framing we sent them not Theo. We annexe the conclusion which you must and would infer to the places which you alleadge and in so doing we can not abuse you Out of the 21. of S. Iohn what woulde you cite but this charge to Peter feed my sheepe In the 16. of S. Matthew what finde you there but the promise of our Sauiour I wil giue thee the keies of the kingdom of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou bindest or losest in earth shal be bound and losed in heauen All the wordes which the 13. to the Hebrewes hath for your purpose are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yâ— is be perswaded by their words and giue place to their admonitions which watch ouer your soules Nowe what your conclusion is and must be neither can any man doubt nor do your selues dissemble For the fift chapter of your immodest and vntrue defence of English Catholikes as you call them proposeth purposely handleth the depriuation of Princes for heresie and falling from the faith So that helpe the matter how you can with your glozes and phrases these be your antecedeÌ„ts and this is your consequent Phi. Well if Peter must feede Princes why may not Peter depose Princes Theo. Taking their Crownes from them is not preaching the Gospell vnto them which Christ ment by feeding Phi. But Peter may correct them as well as feede them and depriuation is but correction Theo. Any Pastor may reproue them if they withstand the trueth that bindeth them in earth shutteth heauen against them But other correction on the goodes landes or bodies of priuate men preachers may not exercise much lesse intermeddle with the Seates and Scepters of Princes Phi. Be we kinges be we Caesars we are commaunded to obey our Prelates and Pastours and to be subiect to them Theo. Princes and all other christians must be reuerent and obedient to the word and Sacramentes which God hath put in the mouthes and handes of his messengers other subiection to Prelates or Pastors is none due Phi. And if they refuse to be subiect to the word or Sacramentes shall not Pastors punish them though they be Princes Theo. Let them sinke in their sinnes and leaue them to God that is punishment enough Phi. Shal they goe no farther Theo. Externall or corporall meanes by losse of life landes or goodes God hath not allowed any Pastour to compell or punish his sheepe withall Phi. Then may Princes freely despise both the word and the Preacher Theo. If you call that freedome to fall into the handes of the liuing God which S. Paul saith is a fearefull thing Whosoeuer shall not receiue you nor heare your wordes when you depart out of that house or that citie shake off the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall bee easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement than for that citie Is not this reuenge sufficient for Princes that turne from the truth vnlesse you also must be fingering of their crownes and treadding on their necks Phi. That would terrifie them more than the threatning of helfire Theo. It may be that contenteth your appetites better but God hath reserued the punishment of Princes to himselfe and not assigned it ouer vnto you Howbeit why doe you wander thus from the question You should proue by the worde of God that Princes may be deposed Why then doe you linger and make so many profers before you come to your purpose Phi. Will you haue a plaine proofe out of the new Testament that Princes may be deposed Theo. That is it wee looked for all this while Phi. Pastours haue full authoritie to forbid vs the companie of heretikes blasphemers and idolaters and such like and not so much as to salute them much more not to obey them Theo. Is this your best discretion We must not be companions with idolaters ergo we must not be subiects to Princes Phi. If they be conuicted of heresie or idolatrie Theo. Put you no difference betwixt familiars and subiectes Phi. If we may not be familiar with them much lesse subiect vnder them Theo. Are you not low drawen when you come with such dregges Phi. Iest not at it but answere it Theo. Be earnest in any case It is a very profound and substantiall reason Phi. Substantial or
Father or Councell for 800. yeares that proueth the Pope superiour to the Prince Bring somwhat to that end or else say you can not and I am answered Phi. I proue the church superior to the Prince which is enough to confute the supreme power that you giue to Princes Theo. And what for the Pope Shall he be superiour to Princes or no Phi. We wil talke of that an other time we be now reasoning of the church which I trust you will grant to be superiour to Princes God saide to the Church The nation and kingdom that will not serue thee shall perish And kinges shall serue thee Theo. This is right the trade of your Apologie to pretende the church and meane the Pope You sawe you were neuer able to proue the Popes vsurped power ouer Princes and therefore you thought it best to put a visarde of the Church vppon the Popes face and to bring him in that sort disguised to the stage to deceiue the simple with the sounde and shewe of the Church And for that cause your fourth chapter neuer nameth the Pope but stil vrgeth The regiment of the church The iudgement of the church The churches tribunall conuerted kingdomes must serue the church and euerie where the church the church and when the Church is confessed to bee superiour to Princes you set vppe the Pope as heade of the Church to take from her all the superioritie power and authoritie which before you claymed for her and so you make the Church but a cloke-bagge to carrie the Popes titles after him but staie your wisedomes the Church may bee superiour and yet the Pope subiect to Princes Kinges may serue the Church and yet commaund your holie father and his gymmoes the parish Priestes of Rome for their turning winding euery way iustly called Cardinals Phi. Can Princes bee supreme and the church their superiour Theo. Why not Phi. If any thing bee superiour Princes bee not supreme Theo. That I denie The Scriptures bee superiour to Princes and yet they supreme the Sacramentes bee likewise aboue them and yet that hindereth not their supremacie Truth Grace Faith Prayer and other Ghostlie vertues bee higher than all earthly states and all this notwithstanding Princes may bee supreme gouernours of their kingdomes and Countries Phi. You cauill nowe you shoulde compare persons with persons and not thinges with persons there may bee thinges aboue Princes and yet they supreme but if anie persons bee superiour then can they not bee supreme Theo. No The Sainctes in heauen and Angels of God bee persons superiour to Princes and yet may Princes bee supreme Phi. Why Theophilus these bee wrangling quiddities for shame leaue them The Sainctes bee superiour in perfection and dignitie but not in externall vocation and authoritie Theo. I like that you saie but if you looke backe you shall see Philander that you giue iudgement against your selfe Phi. Against my selfe Why so Theo. The Church is superiour to Princes for those very respectes which I nowe repeated First because the Saincts in heauen which are part of the church in happines perfection and dignitie bee many degrees aboue worldely states Secondly though the members of the Church bee subiect and obedient to Princes yet the thinges contayned in the Church and bestowed on the Church by God him-selfe I meane the light of his worde the working of his Sacramentes the giftes of his grace and fruites of his spirite bee farre superiour to all Princes Nowe view your consequent The Church in respect of her members in heauen and graces on earth is aboue the Prince ergo the Prince is not supreme but subiect to the Pope This is worse than wrangling You confound things and persons heauen and earth God and man to beare out the Popes pride Phi. You stretch the name of the church whither you list Theo. I may better stretch it to these thinges which I specifie than you restraine it to one onelie man as you doe But why doe I stretch the church farther than I should The Sainctes in heauen bee they not members of the church Phi. They bee membees of the church which is in heauen Theo. And the church in heauen is it an other church from this on earth or the same with it Phi. I thinke it bee the same Theo. You must not goe by thoughtes Sainct Paul saith You are of the same citie with the Sainctes and Ierusalem which is aboue is no straunger to vs but the mother of vs all Cum ipsis Angelis sumus vna ciuitas Dei cuius pars in nobis peregrinatur pars in illis opitulatur Wee saith Austen are one and the same citie of God with the Angels whereof part wandereth on earth in vs part in them assisteth vs. And againe The true Sion and true Ierusalem is euerlasting in heauen which is the mother of vs all She hath begotten vs shee hath nurced vs in part a stranger on earth in a greater part remaining in heauen For the soules of the godly that be dead be not seuered from the church which euen now is the kingdome of Christ. Certaynely Christ hath but one bodie which is his church and of that body since the Sainctes be the greater and worthier part they must bee counted of the same Church with vs. Phi. I stick not at that so much as at the next where you make the word and Sacramentes togither with their effectes and fruites to be parts of the church Theo. I do not say they be members of the Church but thinges required in the church without the which we can neither become nor continue the members of Christ. In a naturall bodie the spirits and faculties be no members yet without them the members haue neither life motion sense nor action So in the mysticall bodie of Christ the members be men but the meanes and helpes to make vs and keepe vs the members of Christ are the word and Sacraments without the which we can neither be planted quickned nor nourished in Christ. For the members be dead if they liue not by faith if they grow not by grace if they cleaue not by loue to their heade and moue at his will by obedience And therefore these thinges though they bee not members yet they bee ioyntes and sinewes vaines and vessels that giue life groeth strength and state to the bodie of Christ which is his church and may iustly bee called the principall powers or partes of his bodie Phi. Powers if you will but not partes Theo. As though the powers of the soule were not partes of the soule Phi. Not properly partes but powers and faculties Theo. What call you partes Phi. Whereof the whole consisteth Theo. And since without these there can be no Church ergo these be partes of the church Phi. You take partes very largely Theo. No larger than I should The foundation of the house is it not a part of the house Phi. Yes a chiefe
part Theo. Faith is the foundation of the church why then should not faith be a part of the church Phi. The Church consisteth of persons not of thinges Men are the church saith S. Augustine Againe The church that is the people of God throughout all nations Theo. I doe not deny the church to bee many times taken for the faithfull on earth but I adde that the graces mysteries and word of God bee contained in the Church and without them the Persons are no Church Our bodies and soules doe not make vs members of Christ but our faith and obedience By Baptisme not by birth doe we Put on Christ and grace not meates establish our heartes They bee the sonnes of God that he led by the spirit of God And if any man haue not the spirit of Christ the same is no member of his Phi. All this is true Theo. The church then consisteth not of men but of faithfull men and they bee the Church not in respect of flesh and blood which came from earth but of trueth and grace which came from heauen Phi. I graunt Theo. Ergo the perfection of Gods giftes the communion of his graces and direction of his word are the verie life and soule of his Church so within the compasse of the church are comprised not onely the persons that bee earthly but also the things that be heauenly whereby God gathereth preserueth and sanctifieth his Church Phi. What doth this helpe you Theo. That when wee saie with S. Ambrose Imperator bonus intra Ecclesiam non supra Ecclesiam est A good Emperour is within the Church not aboue the Church you can conclude nothing out of these words against vs. Phi. Can we not If good Princes bee not aboue the church ergo they be not aboue the prelats pillours of the church Theo. That is no consequent Phi. Why not Theo. By the Church are ment sometimes the places somtimes the persons sometime the things that be cheefely required in the Church Of the place S. Austen saith We cal the Church the temple where the people which are trewly called the Church are conteined that by the name of the Church I meane the people which is conteined we may signifie the place which conteyneth And againe The Church is the place where the Church is assembled for men are the Church The Church as it is taken for persons hath a triple distinction First the Church of glorious and elect Angels and men Ecclesia deorsum ecclesia sursum Ecclesia deorsum in omnibus fidelibus ecclesia sursum in omnibus Angelis There is a Church beneath there is a Church aboue The Church beneath in all the faithfull the Church aboue in all the Angels And againe The right order of confession required that in our creed next to the three persons in Trinity should stand the Church as next to the owner his howse to God his tēple to the builder his citie which must here be taken for the whole not only that part which is a pilgrime on earth but also for that part which abiding in heauen hath euer since it was created cleauen vnto God This part in the holy Angels persisteth in blessednes and helpeth as it ought her other part wandring in earth The temple of God therfore is the holy Church I mean the vniuersall in heauen and earth Secondly the Church is the people of God through out all nations ioyning reckning al the Saints which before his cōming liued in this world The whole Church euerie where diffused is the bodie of Christ and he is the head of it Not only the faithful which are now but also they that were before vs and they that shall be after vs to the end of the world they al pertaine to his bodie The Church is the body of Christ not the church which is here or there but that which is here and euery where throughout the world neither that Church which is at this time but from Abel vnto those which shall hereafter bee borne and beleeue in Christ euen till the end the whole companie of saintes belonging to one Citie which is the bodie of Christ and whereof he is the head Thirdly the Church may bee limited by time and place as the particular Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus and such like Behold saith Austen in the Church there be Churches which be members of that one Church dispersed throughout the world There be many Churches yet one Church and in that sort many that there is but one Somtimes the church importeth besides the persons y◠things in which those persons must communicate before they can be members of the Church as when the church is called the kingdome citie and howse of God whereby wee learne that it is furnished not onely with persons but with all thinges needefull for the seruants citizens and people of God to the conuerting and sauing of their soules In that sense saith S. Paul The kingdome of God is righteousnes peace and ioy in the holy Ghost meaning these be fruits and effects of Gods kingdome which our Sauiour threatned to take from the Iewes The kingdome of God shall bee taken from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof shewing that when the woorde of trueth and seales of grace are taken from vs wee cease to bee the people and Church of God Christ raigneth in his Church by his word and spirit without these men are not the Church An earthly citie must haue vnitie societie regiment sufficiencie for an earthly state the number of men doeth not make a citie if these thinges want Howe much more must the citie of God haue abundance of al thinges profiting to eternall life S. Austen sayth of the house of God which is the Church It is founded by beleeuing erected by hoping perfected by louing noting these three to bee the maine partes in the building of Gods house It is playner than that longer proofe shall neede If wee woulde define the Church wee must comprehend not onely men but other thinges also which may seuer the Church from those that are not the Church and those thinges that are required to the explication are wee say contained in the appellation of the Church The Church is not simply a number of men for Infidels heretikes and hypocrites are not the Church but of men regenerate by the woord and Sacraments truely seruing God according to the Gospell of his sonne and sealed by the spirite of grace against the day of redemption Men thus qualified are the Church and the giftes and graces of GOD that so qualifie them bee not onely the iewels and ornaments wherewith the spouse of Christ is decked but euen the seede and milke whereby like a mother shee conceyueth and nourceth her children The church our mother saith Austen conceiued vs of Christ nourished yea nourisheth vs with the milke of faith Shee conceiueth by the Sacraments
title of vniuersall Whom doest thou imitate in so peruerse a name but Lucifer that despising legions of Angels his fellowes would needes aspire to be singular and alone to be ouer all To let one man haue all the members of Christ in subiection vnder him is not the meane to reduce Princes and their people to trueth as you falslie suppose but the high way to wrappe them and the whole church in blindnesse and error Ecclesia vniuersa corruit si vnus vniuersus cadit If he that is vniuersall fall the whole church falleth with him Yea this very subiection of all kingdomes and countries to the Popes beck made him first forget his duetie to God and man whiles his clawbacks aduanced him to the height of heauen and gaue him all power both in heauen and earth and so quailed disabled all others that they neither might reproue nor durst resist his wicked and wilfull fansies were they neuer so pernicious to the faith or opprobrious to the church For you made it Sacrilege to dispute of his fact Heresie to doubt of his power Paganisme to disobey him Blasphemie against the holy Ghost to doe or speake against his decrees and canons and that which is most horrible you made it Presumption not to goe to the diuel after him without any grudging O shameful sinful subiection such as Lucifer himselfe neuer offered the bondslaues of hell Phi. Nay rather O shamefull and sinnefull report doeth hee require any such subiection Theo. If your lawe doe not auouch as much as I report let mee beare the shame Sacrilegij instar esset disputare de facto Papae It were no lesse than sacrilege to dispute of the Popes fact And the Capitall Register of your decrees Commit tunt sacrilegium qui contra diuinae legis sanctitatem aut nesciendo committunt aut negligendo offendunt Similiter de iudicio summi Pontificis alicus disputare non licet They commit sacrilege which of ignorance transgresse or of negligence breake the Lawe of God Vnder the like paine of sacrilege it is vnlawfull for any man to dispute of the Popes iudgement For all the sanctions of the Apostolike See of Rome are to be receiued as confirmed with the diuine voice of Peter himselfe Hee saith Pope Nicolaus that defraudeth any church of her right doeth vniustlie but hee that indeuoureth to take from the church of Rome her priuilege hic procul dubio in haeresin labitur est dicendus haereticus hee out of all doubt slideth into heresie and is to bee counted an heretike Uppon the warrant of this and such like textes your Glozer as it were falling on his knees and holding vppe his handes to that Idoll exalting him-selfe in the Temple of God pronounceth distinctly and leasurably Credere Dominum Deum nostrum Papam non potuisse statuere prout statuit haereticum censeretur To thinke that our Lord God the Pope coulde not decree as he hath decreed must bee counted hereticall For as Pope hee might doe manie things not only declare but also bring in a new article of faith Bonifacius the eight would needes haue it to bee Manicheisme and that he found by the first booke of Moses Whosoeuer saith he resisteth the Popes power resisteth the ordinance of God vnlesse with Manicheus he dreame of mo beginninges than one which we adiudge to be false and heretical because as Moses saith in the beginning God made heauen and earth not in the beginnings Therefore we declare affirme define pronounce that it is a necessarie point to saluation for euerie humane creature to bee subiect to the Bishop of Rome Gregorie the seuenth produceth Samuell to proue that it is idolatrie and infidelitie to disobey the Pope Hee that will not obey this most holsome precept of ours forbidding Priestes their wiues vnder the colour of fornication incurreth the sinne of Idolatrie as Samuell witnesseth Not to obey is the sinne of witchcraft not to be content is the wickednesse of idolatrie Therefore he falleth into Paganisme whosoeuer obeieth not the Apostolike See of Rome They may be well saide to blaspheme the holy Ghost saith Pope Damasus which willingly or frowardly do or dare speake against the holy canons For this presumption is plainly one kinde of blasphemie against the holie Ghost And as though this were too litle the gloze addeth Blasphemie nay ipso facto he is accursed and an heretike Phi. You wrest that to the Popes decrees which was spoken of the canons of councels Theo. I wrest it not the same place will tell you the word compriseth as well the Popes decrees as canons of councels Sancta Romana Ecclesiaius authoritatem sacris Canonibus impertitur habet enim ius condendi Canones The holy Romane church giueth strength and authoritie to the sacred canons for shee hath right to make canons And againe Sic summae sedis Pontifices Canonibus siue à se siue ab alijs sua authoritate conditis reuerentiā exhibent So the Bishops of the supreme See doe reuerence the canons which them-selues make or others by their authoritie And lastly speaking of the Bishoppes of Rome Ipsi soli Canones valent interpretari qui ius condendi eos habent Popes onely may interprete the canons which haue right to make canons Or if you thinke Popes woulde not accompt it blasphemie to breake their decrees reade the words of Pope Adrian in the same section Generali decreto censemus constituimus vt execrandum anathema sit velut praeuaricator fidei Catholicae semper apud Deum reus existat quicunque Regum Episcoporum vel Potentum deinceps Romanorum Pontificum Decretorum censuram in quoqua crediderit vel permiserit violandam By a generall decree we order and determine that he shal be execrably accursed and guiltie for euer before God as a transgressor of the catholike faith whatsoeuer king Bishop or Noble man hereafter shal beleeue the censure of the Popes decretals may be broken in any thing or shall permit the same That horrible curse which the Apostle pronouceth If any man loue not the Lord Iesus this Apostata thundreth on them that doe but doubt of his decretals This is bad enough yet this is not the worst For Bonifacius a Martyr as you make him requireth al men to follow the Bishop of Rome to the diuel of hell without making any words Si Papa suae fraternae salutis negligens deprehenditur inutilis remissus in suis operibus insuper à bono taciturnus qui magis officit sibi omnibus nihilominus innumerabiles populos cateruatim secum ducit primo mancipio gehennae huius culpas istic redarguere praesumit mortalium nullus Your forgeries be as grosse as they be wicked the latine is so good that I can skant english it yet thus it is or should bee If the Pope be found to neglect the saluation of himselfe
Priesthoode who with his Iron rodde bruseth the pride of Princes that rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters poâ—shard and hath right in his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom al kings shall fall downe and all Nations do him seruice Theo. That the Sonne of God will bruse the pride of those Princes with an Iron rodde which rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters shard and that he hath right both within and without his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom all kings on earth and Angels in heauen shall fall downe and doe him seruice these thinges are vndoubted with vs and brought in by you but onely for a windlace to make the reader cast his eyes on Christ and his kingdome while you closely conuey the Princes Scepter vnder the Popes feete Accursed bee hee that doeth not confesse the supereminent power which the Sonne of God hath ouer all kingdomes ouer all creatures ouer the States and liues bodies and soules of all men Wil you thence inferre the Pope hath the like In sooth masters you must make hard shift before these reasons will bee good Phi. Christs Priestly prerogatiue passing his owne regall dignitie much more excelling all other humane power of the worlde in most ample and exact termes is coÌ„municated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules and secondarily to the rest of the gouernours of the Church in other manner of clauses than any earthly Princes can shewe for their pretensed spirituall regiment Fie on that secular pride wilfull blind heresie so repugning against Gods expresse ordinaunce and yet is of wicked Sect-masters and flatterers vpholden to the eternall calamitie of themselues and of millions of others Theo. This is stale Rhetorike to come with an outcrie when you should make your conclusion Conclude first and rayle after otherwise you shewe your selues to trust more to the slippernes of your tongues than to the soundnes of your cause Phi. Our illation is euident Christ as a Priest bruseth the pride of Princes with his Iron rodde and hath right ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vppe buyld and destroy But Christs Priestly prerogatiue in most ample and exact termes is communicated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules The chiefe Pastor therefore hath the like right ouer all kingdomes to plant plucke vp buyld and destroy Theo. The power which you mention in your first proposition is attributed to Christ not as a Priest but as a king The wordes of the Psalme are very plaine to that end I haue set my king vpon my holy hill of Sion Aske of mee and I will giue thee the heathen for thine inheritaunce and the endes of the earth for a possession to thee Thou shalt crush them with a scepter of Iron and breake them in pieces like a potters vessell S. Iohn applieth the same place to the royal and not to the Priestly power of Christ. I saw the heauen open and beholde a white horse and hee that sate vpon him was called faithful and true and hee iudgeth and fighteth in righteousnes On his head were many Crownes and out of his mouth went a sharpe sword that with it he should smite the heathen and hee shal rule them with a rod of Iron And hee hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written the King of Kings and Lord of Lordes Howe thinke you His horse his Crowne his robe his traine his sworde his stile described in this place expresse they his Priestly or Princely prerogatiue As a Priest hee sacrificed himselfe on the crosse and had his owne blood shed for the remission of sinnes As a King hee subdueth his enemies and maketh them like dust vnder his feete bee they Princes or others Your Maior is therefore false that to bruse kings with an Iron rod and to breake them in pieces like a potters shard is a priuilege of Christs Priesthoode and not of his Princehoode Your Minor that Christs Priestly prerogatiue is communicated in most ample exact termes to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of the Church hath farre lesse trueth in it than your Maior For al the prerogatiue of Christs Priesthood is not communicated to any other Such an high Priest saith S. Paul it became vs to haue which shoulde be holy vndefiled separated from sinners made higher than the heauens who in the end of the world appeared once to put away sinne by the offering vp of himselfe and after that one sacrifice for sinne is set down for euer at the right hand of God hauing obtained eternal redeÌ„ption for vs and being able perfectly to saue them that come to God by him seeing he euer lyueth to make intercession for them These and many such prerogatiues of his Priesthood I hope you will not empart to the Pope lest wee crie fie on your blasphemous hearts and mouthes which set the man of sinne equall with the sonne of God If you restraine your Minor by confessing that not all but some of the prerogatiues of Christes Priesthoode are communicated to others then your conclusion hath no force both your premisses being meere particulars For though Christ gaue some part of his power honour to his Apostles yet this hee gaue not and therefore his gift to them can doe you no good vnlesse you prooue that hee gaue them this prerogatiue amongst the rest which he bestowed on them Phi. Hee sayd to Peter and his successours Whatsoeuer thou bindest on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou losest in earth shall bee loosed in heauen Can you require a more ample graunt Theo. Peter and the rest were to bind and lose the sinnes and soules of men by the woord and sacraments not the Scepters and swords of Princes And so Christ himselfe expoundeth his graunt vnto them Whose sinnes soeuer you remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes soeuer yee retaine they are retayned And in this place you leaue out the first part of the graunt which should direct the whole I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen not of the kingdomes on earth Bernard though he were but of late yeeres yet was he not afraid to tel Pope Eugenius ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra quoniam propter illa non propter has accepistis claues regni caelorum Your power concerneth sinnes and not possessions because yee receiued the keyes of the kingdome of heauen for those thinges and not for these And so Theophilact Vnderstand the keyes which bind and lose to bee the pardoning or punishing of sinnes And so S. Ambrose The right of the holy Ghost consisteth in bynding and losing of sinnes As also Saint Augustine The keyes Christ gaue to his Church that what she loosed in earth should be
opinion is common but not currant with vs If you meane to proue it you shall haue the longer and stiller audieÌ„ce Phi. S. Peter being but a meere spiritual officer and Pastor of mens soules yet for sacrilege and simulation stroke dead both man and wife S. Paul stroke blind Elymas the Magician So did he threaten to come to his contemners in rod of discipline So did be excoÌ„municate a Principal person in Corinth for incest not only by spiritual punishment but also by bodily vexation giuing him vp to Satans chastisement As he corporally also corrected and molested with an euill spirit Himeneus and Alexander for blasphemie and heresie Finally he boldly auoucheth that his power in God is to reuenge al disobedience and to bring vnder all loftie hearts to the loialtie of christ and of the Apostles and Sainctes in this life Nescitis quoth he quoniam Angelos iudicabimus quanto magis secularia knowe you not that wee shall iudge Angels how much more secular matters Theo. Such dissolute mariners were neuer like but to make such desperate aduentures You shoulde proue that spirituall Pastours haue power to sease the goods and possessions and chastise the bodies of such as they excommunicate and you shewe where God afflicted those for their sinnes which the Apostles cast out of the Church either with euill spirites or some corporall plague or death as hee sawe cause which is not pertinent to your purpose Can you not distinguish the finger of God from the factes of men Or see you no difference between miraculous vengeance from heauen and iudicial processe on earth God strake Ananias dead for tempting him in Peter and Elymas for resisting him in Paul May Preachers therefore putte out mens eyes and murther such as beleeue them not In deede you practise this new kinde of preaching but not by warrant from Christ or his Apostles Philand Did not Peter kill Ananias and Sapphira with his worde Theo. And since you can not do the like with your words you will take helpe of your handes Phi. With wordes or handes so they bee slaine all is one Theo. Not so The one is a miracle wrought by God the other is a murder committed by man which God prohibiteth and of all other thinges ought to bee farthest from the Preachers of peace Phi. Peter did so Theo. Peter reproued them for tempting the holie Ghost but the hande of God and not of Peter inflicted the punishment Reade the place Then saide Peter Ananias why hath Satan filled thine heart that thou shouldest he vnto the holie Ghost Thou hast not lied vnto men but vnto God Nowe when Ananias hearde these words saith the Scrâ—pture hee fell downe and gaue vppe the Ghost I aske not what faâ—t of Peters you finde that shoulde hasten the death of Ananias but what one worde purporting any such thing can you shewe vs in all that Peter saide to Ananias Phi. In his wordes to Sapphira wee can For hee saide to her The feete of them that haue buried thine husband are at the doore and shall carrie thee out Theo. Did Peter by these words kill her or foretell her that God would doe to her as hee had doone to her husbande Phi. Which say you Theo. Peter we say neither desired nor inflicted that iudgement on them but onely signified what God would doe The like we saie for Paul when Elymas was stroken blind He warned that Sorcerer what should befall him from God but himselfe did neither enuie nor iniurie the Sorcerers eyes His wordes were Wilt thou not cease to peruert the streight waies of the Lord Now therefore behold the hand of the Lord is vpon thee and thou shalt be blind not seeing the Sunne for a time Paul denounced Paul imposed not that corporall chastisement on him The deede was Gods who may iustly take from his enemies not onely their eies but their breathes and spirits when he wil and in what sort it pleaseth best his righteous and sacred wisedome Phi. But Paul himselfe corporallie corrected and molested with an euill spirite Himineus and Alexander for blasphemie and heresie So did he excommunicate a Principal Person in Corinth for incest not onely by spiritual punishment but also by bodilie vexation giuing him vp to Satans chastisement Theo. You drawe the word of God to your fansies by turning doubtes into certaineties antecedentes into consequentes mans actions into Gods iudgementes That the Apostle deliuered Himineus and Alexander vnto Satan and so the incestuous Corinthian whom you of your owne head without any witnesse call a Principal Person in Corinth because the slide you saw was easie from Principall to Princes is a matter out of question but that he corporally corrected and molested them with euil spirites these be your additamentes wherewith you thought to lengthen the text to your own liking Phi. S. Paul gaue iudgement of the Corinthian that he should bee deliuered vnto Satan for the destruction of the flesh And how could the flesh be destroied without bodily vexation affliction The. This phrase for the destruction of the flesh hath diuerse expositions therefore vpon a doubtful kinde of speech you can not build an vndouted conclusion S. Ambrose expoundeth the place thus The Apostle decreed that by the consent in the presence of all men he should be cast out of the Church Cum eijcitur traditur Satanae in interitum carnis Et anima enim corpus intereunt His casting him out of the Church is the deliuering of him to Satan to the destruction of the whole man which is nothing but flesh For both soule and bodie perish And lest you shoulâ— thinke it much that the soule is called fleshe he giueth this reason Victa anima libidine carnis fit caro the soule once ouercome by the lustes of the flesh becommeth flesh and is in the Scripture so commonly called the lusts of the flesh deliuereth the soule defiled with it and also the body to hell Phi. But S. Paul addeth that the spirite may bee saued in the day of our Lord Iesus Christ which can not stand with this exposition that both fleshe spirit were deliuered vnto perdition Theo. The same father will tell you that the spirit may be referred not to him that was excluded but to the rest that remained in the church as if S. Paul should haue saide I haue decreed to cast this vncleane person out from among you to his iust condemnation that the grace of Gods spirit may be preserued in the rest of you to the day of iudgement The same Sainct Augustine followeth What spirite doeth the Apostle affirme shoulde bee preserued when he saieth I haue deliuered that man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh c. The destruction of the flesh ment in this place is a man addicted to pleasures and fleshly delightes purchaseth hell to himselfe For by such sinnes the whole man becommeth
and chastise the bodies of such as offende Preachers may shut the gates of heauen against non-repentants Princes may roote them from the face of the earth and let them feele the iust vengeaunce of their sinnes in this worlde This is the power of Princes which wee say must bee directed by Bishoppes but is not subiected to their willes or Tribunals and though the Preachers charge concerne thinges which bee more perfect and excellent yet that is no reason why Bishoppes should corporally correct or depose Princes no more than if Philosophers or schoolemasters shoulde take vpon them to doe the like because they professe to trayne vp others in wisedome and vertue which farre exceede the feeding or clothing of the bodie which seeme to bee the Princes care And yet may you not rashly exclude the Princes function from caring for religion and vertue It is euident that God first ordained and authorized the sworde to punish error and vice and to maintaine trueth and integritie amongst men and therefore the Princes and the Preachers functions by Gods institution shoulde concurre euen in those Ghostly and heauenly thinges which you would chalenge to your selues the Preacher declaring the Prince establishing the word of trueth the Preacher deliuering the Prince defending the Sacraments of grace the Preacher reproouing the Prince punishing the sinnes and offences of all Degrees and States Howbeit wee must confesse the Preachers seruice in these cases excelleth the Princes for that the woorde in the Preachers mouth engendreth faith and winneth the soule vnto God to serue him with a willing mind whereas the sword in the Princes hand striketh onely a terror into men to refraine the outwarde act but refourmeth not the secrets of the heart Phi. When the temporall power resisteth God or hindereth the proceeding of the people to saluation there the spirituall hath right to correct the temporall and to procure by all meanes possible that the terrene kingdome giue no annoyance to the state of the Church Theo. What you want in proofes you make out in woordes Wee haue heard you I know not how often full solemnly affirme that the Spiritual power hath right to correct the temporal whereby you meane that the Pope may depose the Prince but as yet we see you not prooue it Your exquisite and affected vtterance which is the chiefest furniture of your booke and the best support of your cause can not turne hard into soft nor sower into sweete men must haue some better euidence for the depriuation of Princes before they beleeue it than your meretricious and deintie speach Pastours are you say to procure by all meanes possible that the terrene kingdome giue no annoyance to the state of the Church you shoulde haue added by all meanes possible and lawful for by periurie rebellion and slaughter of Princes though it bee possible yet is it not lawfull to procure the welfare of Christes Church If you receiue that addition and auouche it lawfull for Bishoppes to depese Princes you runne to the point which wee first beganne with absurdly presuming and neuer proouing the thing which is called in question Phi. The Church excelleth the terrene state and Domination as farre as the Sunne passeth the Moone the soule the bodie and heauen the earth By reason of which excellencie and preeminence aboue all states and men without exception of Prince or other our Lorde proclaimeth in his Gospel that whosoeuer obeyeth not or heareth not the Church must bee taken and vsed no otherwise than as an heathen Theo. You must needes bee cunning in counting howe many degrees a Priest excelleth a Prince Innocentius the third twelue hundred yeeres after Christ beganne this comparison and proueth it out of the Scripture full like a Pope Thou shouldest haue knowen sayth hee to the Emperour that GOD made two great lights in the firmament of heauen the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night Whereby is meant that GOD made two great lightes that is two great dignities which are the Priest and the Prince for the firmament of heauen that is of his vniuersall Church But that which ruleth the day to witte spirituall thinges is the greater that which ruleth carnall thinges is the lesser that wee should acknowledge as great difference to bee betweene Bishops and Princes as there is betweene the sunne and the moone Your gloze setteth downe and casteth by plaine Arythmetike howe much that amounteth to Therefore sayth hee since the earth is seuen tymes bigger than the Moone and the Sunne eyght tymes bigger than the earth it resteth that the Bishoppe bee fourtie seuen tymes greater than the Prince And yet aduising himselfe better for that his totall summe rose no faster hee sheweth out of Ptolomie that the sunne contayneth the bignes of the moone seuen thousande seuen hundred fourtie foure tymes and so many degrees iumpe is euery Bishoppe aboue euery Prince These paringes and offscouringes of your Decretals you haue swept together and vsing the name of the Church to make the matter more saleable though by the Church you vnderstande as they did the Bishoppe of Rome and his Colledge of Cardinals you perfume their follies with a fewe words of your owne and newe proclaime them for some precious wares but take backe the filth and slime of your vnlearned and ill aduised Canonistes wee looke for grauer and better authorities than either your or their flatteries Phi. Whosoeuer obeyeth not or heareth not the Church must bee taken and vsed no otherwise than as an heathen Theo. I coulde answere you that this place toucheth onely wronges and iniuries done by men to their brethren when as yet there were no Christian Princes And that in these woordes our Sauiour charged his Disciples not to breake the bonde of peace and vnitie with any brother that offered wrong vntill they had first secretly warned them then with witnesses and last of all publikely before the whole multitude of the faithfull where hee and they liued and if after so many lawfull warnings hee ceased not to afflict and vexe his brother the partie grieued should no farther be bound to communicate with him in brotherly loue and charitie no more than hee was with an Ethnike or a Publicane S. Ambrose giueth this note vpon the wordes In te Against thee Pulchrè posuit si peccauerit in te Non enim aequa conditio in deum hominemque peccare The Lorde very well added if hee sinne against thee for the same rule doeth not serue when hee sinneth against God that doeth when hee trespasseth man Saint Hierom likewise If our brother sinne against vs and in any thing doe vs wrong wee haue power to forgiue it yea wee must forgiue it but if a man sinne against God the matter is out of our handes Lest therefore in priuate quarrels and offences men should at their listes forsake the communion and felowshippe of their brethren our Sauiour will haue
but the poyson of Dragons vnhappily with Iudas Therefore sayth Paul sauor you those things which are aboue not the things which are on earth For this cup of the new Testament is not any where receiued but aboue in heauen Where the carkaâ—â—e is thither will the Eagles resort that is saith Austen into heauen whither froÌ„ hence Christ caried with him the body which hee tooke in the nature of man Had we no better ground to refuse that your corporal cating reall presence this were sufficient For where without question the flesh of Christ must bee locally present in your host before it can bee really pressed with teeth the sacred scriptures catholik fathers affirm that the true flesh of Christ is absent from earth verily present in heauen whither we must and may send our harts and faithes to be partakers of him our hands mouthes we can not sende therefore your late deuised doctrine must needes be dissident from the scriptures and vnknowen to the former purer church of christ I see saith Stâ—uen the heauens open and the sonne of man standing at the right hand of God whom the heaueÌ„s saith Peter must contain vntil the time that al things be restored Phi. As though he might not also be in earth Theo. Being ascended into heauen he is no more in earth if that be true which the Angels said to his Disciples This Iesus which is taken vp from you into heauen shall so come as you haue seene him go into heauen ergo when he ascended into heauen he was taken vp from them and not left with them and so the Lord himselfe before had taught them I came foorth from the father and came into the world now contrariwise I leaue the world and go to the father So that his ascending to the father was the leauing of the world and his abiding with the father imployeth his absence from the world The poore you alwaies haue with you but me sayth hee you shall not alwayes haue Nowe am I no more in the world but come to thee holy father ergo now Chriâ—t being with his father is no more in the world but remaineth in heauenâ— and as touching his humane nature is absent from the earth which not onely the scriptures pronounce but also the fathers with one voice professe Tertullian In the very palace of heauen to this day sitteth Iesus at the right hand of his father man though also God fleshe and blood though purer than ours neuerthelesse the very same in substaunce and forme in which he ascended Augustine Let vs shew the Iewes at this day where Christ is would God they would heare and take hold of him Hee was slaine of their fathers he was buried he rose againe and was knowen of his Disciples and before their eyes ascended into heauen and there now sitteth at the right hand of the father Let them heare this and lay hold on him Perhaps he will say whom shall I take holde of him that is absent howe shall I reach my hand vp to heauen to take hold on him sitting there Send thy faith and thou hast hold of him Thy father 's held him in the flesh hold thou him in thine heart Hee is both departeâ— and present he is returnâ—d whence he came and hath not left vs. His body hath hee caried to heauen his maiestie hath hee not withdrawen from the world Mee shall you not alwayes haue He spake this of the presence of his body For touching his maiesty prouidence inspeakeable and inuâ—sible grace it is true that he said I am alwayes with you to the end of the world But as touching the fleshe which the word took touching that by the which he was born of the virgin fastned to the crosse laide in the graue you shall not alwayes haue me with you And why because he is ascended into heauen and is not here there hee sitteth at the right hand of the father Cyrill Wee must here diligeÌ„tly marke that albeit hee haue withdrawen from hence the presence of his bodie yet in the maiestie of his Godhead hee is alwayes with vs euen as himselfe readie to depart from his Disciples promised behold I am with you at all tymes vnto the end of the world For the faithfull must beleeue though hee be absent from vs in body yet in his diuine vertue he is euer present with all that loue him with whome hee euer hath beene and will be present though not in bodie yet in the vertue of his Deitie Hee coulde not bee conuersant with his Apostles in fleshe after hee was once ascended to his Father yet for so much as Christ is truely God and man they should haue vnderstood that in the vnspeakeable power of his Godhead hee meant to bee alwayes with them though in fleshe hee were absent and by that onely meanes notwithstanding hee bee absent in fleshe hee is able to saue his Origen according to his diuine nature hee is not absent from vs but hee is absent according to the dispensation of his bodie which hee tooke As a man shall hee bee absent from vs who is euerie where in his diuine nature For it is not the manhood of Christ that is there wheresoeuer two or three bee gathered togither in his name neither is it his manhood that is with vs at all times vntill the ende of the worlde neither is his manhood present in euerie congregation of the faithfull but the diuine vertue that was in Iesu. Ambrose Steuen amiddest the Iewes saw thee O Lord absent Marie among the Angels sawe thee not being present Steuen sought not for thee on earth who sawe thee standing at the right hand of God Marie which sought thee in earth could not touch thee Steuen touched thee because he sought thee in heauen Therefore neither on the earth nor in the earth nor after the flesh ought wee to seeke thee if we wil find thee Gregory Christ is not here by the presence of his flesh which yet is nowhere absent by the presence of his maiesty The word incarnat both remaineth departeth He departeth from his in bodie and remaineth with his in diuinitie Wee must therefore brethren follow him thither in hart whither we beleeue him to be ascended in body If the fleshe of Christ bee not in earth nor on earth as these learned Fathers teach vs howe can it be locally closed in your massing waters If his humane nature be placed in heauen at the right hand of God there to remaine till the time that all thinges be restored and from thence not from any place els shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead howe vainely doe you suppose him to bee corporally present in your pâ—xes and really lodged in your bellies Phi. His bodie wee say may be present in many places at one time Theoph. This you
to the ministers of the word and Sacramentes Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 21. God hath alreadie by his law prescribed which way he wil be serued that Princes may and must command in their realms though the Pope say nay Princes be not supreme to do what they list in religion but only free from the Popes iurisdiction The feare of God and not the practises of Popes must keepe Princes from doing euill The other toucheth our duetie to the Prince not the Princes duety vnto God The Prince beareth the sword vnder and not aboue God Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 22. Epist. 55. The spirituall regiment of the soule is properlie Christes and not the piests The Preachers functioÌ„ excelleth the Princes in perfection comfort but not in power to commaund or meanes to compell The same god forceth by the Princes sword that teacheth by the preachers mouth * Iohn 3. * Heb. 12. The kingdom is not aboue the Church though the Prince punish wicked priests The true sheepeheard is only Christâ— the rest are his seruantes and not the owners of the sheepe * 1. Pet. 5. Princes in their vocatioÌ„ be shepheards and beare the staffe to compel where the voice will not serue 1. Chron. 11. Psal. 78. The Prince is bound to obey the preachers worde if he speak truth and so is the Preacher bound to obey the Princes Lawes if they be good 1. Thes. 4. Aug. Epist 166. Princes be no iudges of Religion S. Cyprians words alleadged without his meaning Cypr. lib. 1. Ep. 3 Cyprian allowed the people to reiect their Bishop if hee were vnworthy Lib. 1. Epist. 4. Cypr. lib. 1. ep 4. Though the Bishop of Rome tooke his part Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 22. The Prince not free from Christes Preceptes Princes must hear the word and receiue the Sacraments in such sort as God hath appointed The Preacher is prescribed how he shall minister the Sacramentes not how hee shall depose Princes We deny this argument Excommunication made a wrest to lift Princes out of their seates The seruant must not thinke himselfe superiour to all that his master may commaund In vaine seeke they reasons to make the Priest superiour to the Prince whom God himselfe hath made subiect to the Prince Apol. cap. 4. Sect. 23. They harp on Christs priesthoode as if they were Christes own fellowes in his priestly dignitie Christ hath no higher title than the king of glorie and Prince of the world to come Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 23. The communion of Saints consisteth not in obedience to the Pope Nor in externall rites and ceremonies The true communion of the church The communion of the Church not dissolued by the varietie of rites Epist. 118. Euseb. lib. 5. câ— 26. Ibidem Euseb. lib. 5. ca. 23. The Church from the beginning had diuersitie of rites Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 22. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 22. Heb. 12. Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 23. The Popes pride first decaied the West Churches Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 13. A number of watchmen in the Church better than one Apol. chap. 4. sect 24. Vsurpers and forrainers The Iesuits cauill at the word Forrainer God is no forrainer to men Soules in heauen be no forrainers Soules in heauen exercise no iurisdictioÌ„ ecclesiasticall nor spirituall on earth Apol. Cap. 4. sect 24. Princes beare the sword in these causes to see that permitted and defended in their realms which Christ commanded None but Princes can giue freedom and protectioÌ„ to these spiritual functions and actions Apolog. Cap. 4. Sect. 25. Generall couÌ„cels were woÌ„t to be assistaÌ„ts vnto Princes not tribunals aboue princes A generall councel must haue the consent of al christian couÌ„tries The late councel of Trent a mere factioÌ„ of the Popes sworne to take his part and content to refer all things to his power Concil Triden Sess. 25. decres de reformatione cap. 21. Item Sess. 7. Such wronges were neuer offered in the Councell of ancient times The Prince for 1200. yeres called general Councels and not the Pope The poore Friers were 18 yeares disputing whether the Pope and his Cardinals were conspiring against the godly Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 25. We yeld more subiection to Christ his Apostles than they do The Apostles we reuereÌ„ce obey as the messengers of Christ. Distinct. 34. ¶ Lector caus 15. q. 6. ¶ autoritate in gloss Pig Hierar lib. 1. cap. 2. 1. Thes. 2. 1. Thes. 2. Râ—m 1. We owe communion not subiection vnto Councels Reuelat. 22. Cypr. ad Quirinum Peter claimed no subiection to his tribunall In sententijs Concilij Cartha The Popes councels are tyrannicall Many before vs haue refused forraigne tribunall Cypr. in sententijs Concil Car. Ibidem Ibidem Polycrates Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. Augustine Concil African cap. 29. Concil African cap. 105. The Britons Gaâ—frid Monemutens lib. 8. ca. 4. Lib. 7. indict 1. Epist. 30. This Bishop of Rome claimed no Tribunall ouer other countries Greg. Lib. 4. Epist. 38. No Tribunall ouer the whole church but onelie Christ. Gregor lib. 6. Epist. 24. The Popes Tribunall made him first forget both God man A Tribunal fit for the diuell him selfe Distict 40. ¶ Non nos glos ibideÌ„ ¶ quis enim Caus. 17. quaest 4. ¶ Si quis Sacrilege to doubt of the Popes fact or dispute of his iudgement Distinct. 19. ¶ Sic omnes Distinct. 22. ¶ Omnes Heresie to mutter against the Popes pride Extrau Iohan 22. ¶ cum inter nonnullos glos ibide◠¶ declaramus Extra Iohan. 22 ¶ quia quondaÌ„ glos ¶ non vt Papa Extrau communium de maioritate obedient ¶ Vnam sanctam Manicheisme and Paganism not to obey the Popes worde Distinct. 81. ¶ Si qui sunt What saide Samuell more of God than the Pope here applieth to himselfe Caus. 25. quaest 1. ¶ violateres Ibidem glos ¶ Blaspheâ—aâ—e Cans 25. quaest 1. ¶ ideo permittente Ibidem No canons but what the Pope maketh or alloweth Ibidem Caus. 25. quaest 1. ¶ generali A breach of the faith to violate the popes decrees 1. Corinth 16. Distinct. 40. ¶ â—i Papa No man must finde fault with the Pope for leading men to hel by heapes Contra 2. Gaudentij Epist. lib. â— cap. 25. The Pope not Patriark ouer England Patriarks not erected by Christ but by consent of Bishops Hiero. in epist. ad Tit. cap. 1. Ibidem Hiero. Euagâ— tom epist. 2. Ibidem Hierom. IbideÌ„ The Patriarks grew by consent and custome Concil Nicen. Cap. 6. Concil Ephes. 1. Decretum postquaÌ„ Cypr. episc accessissent ad concil Patriarks alwayes subiect to Princes their ecclesiastical lawes Concil Chalced. actio 16. Nouel constit 131. Princes gaue Bishops their prerogatiues ouer others Constit. 123. The Prince coÌ„maunded the Patriarks by name This Realme not in the Popes ancient Prouince Inter August epist. 95. IbideÌ„ epist. 96. Beda hist. gentis Angler lib. 2. Câ— 2. The Pope affecting to be Christs vicar neglected his Patriaâ—kdom The Kings of this land
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather
greatest Councel that euer was was called by him the determination of those fathers lawfully confirmed beseeching the Emperour with teares to imitate his Father Constans vpon the hearing of these thinges presently writeth to his brother and warneth him to keepe inuiolably the inheritance of his fathers faith Constantius moued with thâ—se letters appointed a Councel to be held at Sardica and willed the Bishops as wel of the East as the west to be their present After this Councel had likewise concluded for Paulus and Athanasius against their deposers Constans wrate to his brother the resolution of the Synode and exhorted him to restore them to their places which when Constantius delayed and differred the West Emperour offereth him this choyse either to restore them their Churches or if he woulde not to looke for hostilitie and warre Wherupon the East Emperour being driuen to this streit sent for Athanasius and his fellowes by three seuerall letters and not only restored them but abolished all things that might any way be preiudiciall to them By this you see Iulius had no power to cal a general Councel but Athanasius was fayne to begge it of the Prince with teares and the Bishoppe of Rome was not then taken for the last and supreme Iudge on earth But the Councel sate in Iudgement after him where matters were ended by number of voyces Phi. Yet we saide trueth that Athanasius called for ayde of Iulius Theo. I said as truely that you florish with generalities and ambiguities conclude nothing For what haue you gotten nowe more than we graunted at first or which way doth this example perteyne to that which is in question betwixt vs Phi. You make too light of our proofes Theo. Then put you more weight to them I take them as I find them and for ought that I see you can not mend them Phi. Well esteeme them as you lift they proue that the Bishop of Rome was euer a sure refuge for the Catholiques against heretikes which he neuer perfourmed more worthily than in our dayes Theo. I thinke in deede Rome was neuer fuller of deuises and practises than at this present Antichrist is so carefull for his kingdome lest it fall that hee spareth neither men nor money to be reuenged on those that shrinke from him but when all is done God will strike the stroke Phi. No doubt he will but neuer for you that bee so shamefully fallen from his Church Theo. You be more shamefully fallen from his word consequently from faith which is the foundation of the Church neither can he be ioyned to the Church which is seuered from the Gospel But we go from the matter your examples bee not yet all discussed Phi. Returne when you will Theo. Chrysostome and Augustine you say asked ayde of Innocentius Phi. They did so Theo. Ayde they might aske and he might yeeld and yet neither make for your purpose Phi. That were maruaile Theo. None at all Chrysostome whom you first name sought for helpe as Athanasius did but the displeasure which Arcadius the East Emperour had conceiued against him was so great that Innocentius coulde not preuaile Phi. It serueth our turnes that Chrysostome did seeke to the Bishop of Rome notwithstanding Arcadius by force did ouerbeare him Theo. Chrysostome sought nothing but that his cause might bee heard in a full Synode before indifferent Iudges Phi. It maketh much for Innocentius supremacie that Chrysostome sought this at his handes Theo. You must make your foundation surer before your building will stand You sawe by the last example of Athanasius that the Bishop of Rome and the west Church might reiect refuse the sentence of any Prouinciall Synode giuen against the Patriarke vnlesse their consents were first had And euen the very same doeth Chrysostome request of Innocentius that he would neither admit nor allowe the proceedings of his aduersaries against him as good nor communicate with him that was chosen by them to succeede in his place Phi. This still confirmeth that nothing was good if the Bishop of Rome did dissent Theo. And still that inferreth nothing but yâ— the Bishop of Rome and his Prouince were a part of the Church and by reason and equitie were to giue their voyces as wel as others before the rest might conclude any thing that did concerne or should bynde the whole Church And this is strange that where the Bishoppe of Rome for himselfe and his Prouince seeketh en equalitie with others as a part of the Church you frame him alone a superioritie ouer all others as the heade of the Church Your examples shewe this that others without him could not bind the whole Church because the conseÌ„t was not general your conclusion must be this that he without all others as Christes UicegereÌ„t in earth might dispose the whole Church at his pleasure See you no differeÌ„ce betwixt these two positions Phi. I confesse they differ but can you shew that others withstoode him as well as he withstood them Theo. Yea that I can Phi. Arians perhaps or Donatists Theo. Nay Catholike fathers Councels Phi. Shew that and you say somewhat to the matter Theo. That I will shew when your proofes are ended I thinke not good to mingle yours and ours together Phi. Ours I graunt are much after one sort and therefore I long to heare yours Theo. No hast but good anon you shall you would faine I see ridde your hands Phi. You shall well know the contrarie Say what you can Theo. I say nothing but that you gaine litle by Chrysostoms example Phi. Doe we not These be Chrysostomes wordes to Innocentius Wherefore least this confusion inuade euery nation vnder Heauen I beseech you write that these vniust proceedings both in our absence and when wee refused not iudgement may be of no force as in deed of themselues they are not and let them which haue doone this wrong feele the censure of the ecclesiasticall Lawes and suffer vs that were neither conuicted nor charged with any crime nor so much as conuented to enioy your letters of communion and charitie and likewise of all others whose fellowship wee had before Doeth he not in these wordes request Innocentius to pronounce the sentence voyd that was giuen against him to remoue the authors of this disorder from the communion Theo. To Dissent from it was enough to vndoe it because neither he nor his prouince were acquainted with it to excommunicate the doers was nothing els but to communicate no longer with them which euery Bishop and prouince might do when any wilful breach of the Canons was offered Phi. This petition was made to Innocentius alone and not to the residue of the West Bishops Theo. If Innocentius alone were spoken to the matter is not great Sure it is the Bishop of Rome neither did nor might deale in these cases without the consent of his brethren for feare least when the matter came to voyces as in the end it
and Paul in the fifteenth yeare of his conuersion or as himselfe speaketh After fourteene yeares came not to Rome but to Ierusalem to conferre with Peter which at least must be the 48. yeare of Christ and foure yeares after Peters installation at Rome And after that when Peter came to Antioch and began to dissemble for feare of the Iewes which were sent from Iames Paul resisted him to his face and sharpely rebuked him not respecting that hee was then in his pontificalibus and newly made Bishop of Rome as you your selues beleeue Now choose whether you will disclaime Peter for no Bishop of Rome and so loose your succession from him or graunt that the Bishop of Rome may be lawfully resisted as Peter was which is the very thing you required vs to proue One of these twaine you shall neuer auoide do what you can Phi. I may not deny that Paul did it the Scripture is plaine I resisted him to his face but whether he did no more than he might or how to his face is a Schole-point and a pretie question Theo. No question at all vnlesse you will charge Paul with rashnesse in doing it vnshamefastnesse in writing it and wilfulnesse in directlie defending it For by this dissention doth he proue the â—oundnesse of his doctrine and by Peters yeelding hee confirmeth the Galathians that were wauering And therefore you must either allowe this resistaunce for good and lawfull or else conclude this Epistle to bee no Scripture and Paul to be voide of the holy Ghost in proposing an vnhonest and vngodly fact of his owne for a president which to say were no small blasphemie Phi. I did not auouch it but only moue the question Theo. You must moue no such questions if you be a Christian they be reprochfull to the spirit of God and iniurious to his word You were driuen to a narrow straite when you came to this shift You be loth I see to confesse either but there is no remedy Philander you must yeelde vs one of these whether you will or no. Phi. Let me heare the rest and then you shall know my minde Theo. Resist not truth to maintaine your credit God will surely reuenge it This example is ineuitable studie till your braines ake for an answere But the rest you shall heare Polycarpus being at Rome when Anicetus was Bishop there they dissenting in some other small matters were by and by reconciled but touching the obseruation of Easter-day which in diuerse places was diuersely kept Anicetus could not perswade Polycarpus to leaue those thinges which he had alwayes obserued with Iohn the Disciple of our Lord and the rest of the Apostles with whom he had beene conuersant Phi. The contention was but in words betweene them Theo. Yes they differed in deedes and Polycarpus could not be induced by any wordes to follow that manner of celebrating Easter-day which Anicetus receiued from those Apostles that founded the Romane Church This coÌ„trouersie waxed hoatter in Victors time who for the very same cause went about to cut off al the Churches of Asia from the vnitie of communion as intangled with some strange opinion and by letters inueighed against them and vtterly denounced al the brethren there excommunicated but for all his hast he was quickly staied Phi. By whom Theo. Polycrates in the behalfe of the Churches of Asia amongest other thinges replyeth thus to Victor I that haue seene threescore fiue yeares in the Lord and haue coÌ„ferred with the brethren throughout the world and haue turned and searched the holy Scripture will neuer be afraid of those thinges that are done to terrifie me I could make mention of the Bishops that are with me whoÌ„ you required me to send for and so I did whose names if I would recken they would make a great multitude which taking the paines to visit me a man of small account consent to this Epistle Victors deede did not please all the Bishops that otherwise were of his side Yea many of their letters saith Eusebius are extant that did sharply reproue Victor Amongest whom Ireneus was one that wrote in the name of his brethren of Fraunce where he was chiefe and allowed Victors opinion that the mysterie of the Lordes resurrection should bee kept onely vpon Sundaie But yet he wisely and largelie warneth Victor that he should not excommunicate all the churches of God obseruing their auncient tradition Phi. They withstood him in a small and trifling cause Theo. You take holde of that which doth hurt you To resist whom they should not in a matter that they neede not is a double offence and then shoulde Ireneus and others haue rather reproued Polycrates and his adherentes for neglecting their dueties than the Bishop of Rome for passing his boundes but in that hee was stoutly resisted by the one and sharpelie reproued by the other it is euident that neither of them tooke him for his sole and supreme directer of Christes Church on earth Of Cyprian I said before that he counselled the Church of Spain to reiect Basilides notwithstanding his restitution by Stephanus Bishop of Rome and howe vehemently the saide Stephanus was resisted by Cyprian for the rebaptizing of such as forsooke their heresies his Epistle to Pompeius doth aboundantlie witnesse Because you desired to knowe what aunswere our brother Stephanus Bishoppe of Rome returned to our letters I haue sent you a copie of that he wrote By the reading whereof you shall more and more perceiue his error that hee laboureth to maintaine the cause of heretickes against the Church of God For amongest other thinges either superfluous or impertinent or contrarie to themselues which he writeth vnskilfully and vnwisely hee added this c. And hauing repeated and refuted the wordes of Stephanus What blindnesse of heart saith Cyprian is this and what peruersenesse that hee will not acknowledge the vnitie of faith comming from God the Father by the deliuery of our Lorde Iesus Christ And where no heresie no nor schisme can haue the sanctification of healthfull baptisme out of the Church why doth the inflexible obstinacie of our brother Stephanus breake out so farre that of Martions baptisme and such like blasphemers against God the Father he auoucheth children may be borne vnto God It commeth of too much presumption and frowardnes that a man had rather defende his owne though it bee false and naught than yeelde to an others deedes and words How like you this resisistance doth it go to the quicke or no Phi. This was an error in Cyprian for Stephanus held the truth Theo. The question is not whether Cypryan were deceiued but whether Stephanus were resisted I grant in this case Stephanus had the better part but yet Cyprian the Bishops of Africa thought theÌ„selues to be right vpon that opinion of truth how far they resisted the Bishop of Rome their acts Epistles declare Phi. Their matter I tel you was naught
of bishops euen froÌ„ the apostles time So that neither the words which you alleage should be referred to Sedes Apostolica the apostolike seate nor if they were doth yâ— phrase infer yâ— the church had al her credite froÌ„ Rome but yâ— by the confessioÌ„ of al men the catholike Church had bene in greatest credite euer since the time that Peter sate through the successions of her bishops heretiks barking against her in vain Phi. You said there was nothing in our secoÌ„d chapter worth answering it hath cost you more paines theÌ„ you thought Theo. Your general dissolute discourses I told you were to litle purpose For grant that some godly men resorted to Rome whiles the bishop there was equal with his brethren obedieÌ„t to the magistrate which is all that you proue what doth this help you to coÌ„clude that you may now runne to Rome the Pope clayming and vsurping a newe founde power repugnant to the scriptures iniurious to the Church of Christ and pernitious to the Prince whom God hath annoynted ouer you Phi. The Pope claymeth no such power as you speake of Theo. What power he claimeth vseth ouer princes is too wel knowen for you to denie The worlde hath had long experience of it this Realme hath had late What authoritie he chalengeth ouer the Church of Christ if he did keepe secret you doe not You make him the rocke of refuge in doubtful daies doctrines the chiefe pastor Bishop of your soules in earth The vicar generall of Christ and he that taketh these titles to himselfe without alowance from God is an enemie to Christ oppresseth his Church Phi. God hath allowed the Bishop of Rome that power which he claymeth Theo. That if you could proue the matter were answered that til you do proue your popular perswasions are as I said but lip-labour and no way concerne the cause Phi. That is shal be proued Theo. Neuer feede vs with shales you neuer were nor euer shall be able to proue it Phi. Suspend your iudgement till you see the end Theo. I am content to heare all mary in the meane time you may not presume that which is but lightly touched by you to be clerely proued Phi. We wil not Theo. By that which you haue done I gesse what you wil do We haue discussed two chapters of your Apology where we found nothing but words And therefore vnlesse you drawe to some matter I see no reason why I should stand refelling your phrases Phi. The thirde chapter goeth neerer Theo. In your third chapter what shall we find Phi. The meaning purpose why both our Seminaries were erected Theo. Your owne purposes you can best tell Phi. First to draw diuers youth who for their conscience liued in the lowe Countries from sole seueral voluntarie studie to a more exact methode course of common conference publike exercise to be pursued by their superiours appointment rather than their own choyse Secondly doubting the time of our chastisement might be so long as to weare out either by age imprisonment or other miseries the elder sort of the learned Catholikes both at home and abroad it was thought a necessarie duetie for thâ— posteritie to prouide for a perpetual seed supplie of Catholikes namely of the Clergie Thirdly their purpose was to draw vnto this College the best wits out of England that were either Catholikely bent or desirous of more exact educatioÌ„ than is in these daies in either of the vniuersities where through the delicacie of that sect there is no Art holy or prophane throughly studied some not touched at al or that had scruple of coÌ„scieÌ„ce to take the oth of the Queenes supremacie in causes ecclesiastical or that misliked to be forced to the Ministerie as the vse is in diuers Colleges a calling contemptible euen in their own conceipt very damnable in the iudgement of others or that were doutful whether of the two religions were true which hath driueÌ„ diuers ouer to their great satisfaction admiration of the euidence of our part These were the chiefe respects that led his holines to found our two Seminaries the fruits wherof we haue seene to our great comfort Theo. And this I see you keep your old wont You affirme what you list vpon your own credite disdaining your aduersaries as prophane vnlearned you coÌ„mend your selues for the onely minions of the world set this aside and what one thing is there in your third chapter worth the speaking to Phi. You mislike that Seminaries were appointed for English Students beyond the seas We now proue the first erection of them to be needful healthfull for this realme Theo. Sir your liege Ladie misliked and had good cause so to doe that her subiects were â—locked from her encouraged against her by your practises promises that her open and sworne enemie kept them in couerts which you cal Seminaries and trayned them vp at his charges to bee fit instruments for his secret deuises and purposes Of this you speake not a word but arrogantly defacing both Uniuersities with loosenes of life slackenes of studie you come in with your exact education holy conuersation as if the report of your owne vertues from your owne mouthes were enough to auoyd and preuent al obiections Phi. That answere might serue where nothing was proued but only surmised against vs. Theo. You forget that a Prince did obiect it to whom you were bound with all reuerence and duetie to make your ful and sufficient answere Phi. So haue we done Theo. Mary that you haue in deede The things misliked were these First that by your meanes yong boyes were prouoked and allured to forsake their parents vnstable wittes their Studies subiects their Prince without asking leaue no tyrannie nor torment inflicted or offered to cause them to flie Next that your seminaries as well for their direction as prouision do wholy depend on his pleasure fauour that hath euer since the beginning professed shewed himselfe a mortal enemie to your soueraigne deposing her Person inuading her land and pulling her subiects from her obedience Thirdly that your teachers learners in either of your colleges do not only nourish this trayterous position in their own brests that her highnesse neither is nor ought to bee taken for lawfull Queene of England longer than the Pope shall permit but also labour to poyson her people with that diuelish perswasion vnder colour of religion These points your Patrone cunningly skippeth and falleth to the coÌ„mending and preferring the maners orders vertues of your two Colleges before our two vniuersities which comparison is neither seemely to be published nor easie to be credited Phi. Concerning his holinesse intentions if they be any other in the institution entertainement of those Seminaries than ours are they by vnknowen to vs none being so presumptuous to search further into his secrets than standeth with his good
Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
yet by Gods and mans ordinance it is so diuided that euery one of you in his order and calling hath a part of our charge in so much that I should bee your admonisher and you all my coadiutors For which respect our intent is by other good meanes and by commissioners appointed for this purpose to learne and trie howe well our lieutenants fauour and execute iustice and howe religiously our Bishops liue and preach WILLING TOV ALL VVITHOVT EXCEPTION TO OBSERVE OVR COMMANDEMENT IN ALL THINGS AND HONOVR SVCH AS WE SEND FOR ANY OCCASION OR BVSINES EITHER ECCLESIASTICALL OR TEMPORAL AND IN RESPECT OF OVR AVTHORITIE NOT TO FAILE BVT PERFORME THOSE THINGS WHICH WE HAVE ENIOYNED YOV BY THEM Nowe the charge that wee giue our visitours is this First they shall indict assemblies in two or three places whither all within the limittes of their commission shall resort and there make it knowne to all men what is the summe and effect of their message to witte that wee haue appointed them for this cause that IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant can not do his duetie by reason of any impediment hee should haue recourse to them and by their helpe discharge his dutie and if the matter bee such as by their industrie can not bee redressed then shall it bee brought by them to our knowledge and againe IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant BE FOVND NEGLIGENT IN HIS OFFICE by their monition he shal be refourmed Wee charge them likewise to make knowen to all men the Chapters or Lawes QVAE GENERALITER DE QVIBVSCVNQVE CAVSIS STATVIMVS WHICH WE HAVE DECREED GENERALLY CONCERNING ALL MANER OF CAVSES and do their best to see them throughly kept of all men And if any of the things which we haue ordained and commaunded be found imperfect by some defect happily which they can not amend then shall they with speede make relation thereof to vs that we may correct that which they cannot And because the last yere our expectation was not satisfied in such sort as we looked for we will that this present yere our visitours whom wee haue allotted to this seruice haue better respect and care how euery man that we haue preferred to the gouernance of our people in his calling dischargeth his dewtie to Gods pleasure our honor the benefite of our subiects and this shall be the very course of their inquirie whether the things contained in our Capitular which we deliuered them this yere past be kept and obserued according to Gods will our commaundement Therefore about the midst of May next shall they assemble I meane our visitours euerie man in his diuision with all the Bishops Abbats Lieuetenants our fee men and aduocats the Abbesses and such as cannot come to send their proxies the liuetenant to bring with him his vnder officers and hundreders and in that conuent shall they first conferre touching Christian religion and ecclesiastical order next they shall inquire of our officers how they doe their duties last of our people in what concord and peace they liue And this inquisition shall they make so diligently and exactly that we may be trewly certified by thē of al these points And if any such cause be brought before thē which needeth their help according to the condition of the causes specified in the short rehearsal of our lawes then our wil is they shall go to the place and redresse it by the warrant of our authoritie You can neither bee so simple but you may see nor so partial but you must graunt that Ludouike and Lotharius behaued themselues as rightful superuisours of the Bishops in their Empire how they liued and preached ayding those that were hindered correcting those that were negligent in their ministeries and sent visitours to inquire and redresse by their Princely power any cause that needed reformation in Christian religion or ecclesiastical order commaunding all men generally to reuerence and obay them as wel in ecclesiastical as common wealth matters in respect of their royal authoritie What more than this doth that oth impart which you so much declaime against Or what lesse than this did Ludouike and Lotharius execute Can their proceedings please you and our words expressing the selfesame right offend you You must either reiect both or admit both they bee so neare linked you can not disseuer them I now make your selfe iudge whether these Christian and Catholike Princes were not commaunders and punishers those we call gouernours of Bishops Priests and Moncks in maters and causes ecclesiasticall Phi. I see they were but yet not supreme which is the cheefest thing that we mislike in your oth Theo. I beleeue you well for by that worde we denie Princes to bee subiect to the Popes consistorie which is the chiefest thing you respect Phi. That worde maketh them superiours to God himselfe for supreme is superiour to all neither Christes owne person nor his Church excepted Theo. Can you make such merriments when you be disposed Phi. Doth not the word inferre superiour to all or at least subiect to none Theo. Was it in question when this othe was made whether God should be superior to man or whether Princes should bee subiect to the Pope Phi. It skilleth not what was then in question these bee nowe your woordes Theo. By this cunning you may conclude all that euer wrate with pen or spake with tongue to be wicked blasphemers Phi. Why so Theo. Where the superlatiue is vsed by your rule God himselfe is not excepted And so these phrases a most wise teacher a most holy Bishoppe a most mightie prince and ten thousand such like which we find in all mens bookes and speeches bee meere impieties For they import that many bee wiser holyer and mightier than Christ himselfe or at lest as wise holy and mightie as he which is open inexcusable blasphemie Name me what father or writer you will and see by this art of yours whether I proue him not a blasphemer Phi. That is no right vnderstanding but a foolish carping at mens wordes For when we giue these titles to men sanctissimus potentissimus beatissimus the most holy father the most puissant king the most blessed Martyr we meane amongst men wee compare them not with God Theo. And since all men euen your selues speake so why doe you take that foolish aduantage at the word supreme which we vse as if we ment not amongst men but exalted Princes aboue God Phi. But the Church of Christ is not excepted and that consisteth of men Theo. If by the Church of Christ you meane the faithfull liuing on earth certainely Princes be not subiect but superiours to all Christian men Peter spake to the chosen and elect of God when hee sayde Bee subiect to the king as to the chiefe Paul willed Titus to warne not the miscreants but the beleeuers in Creta to bee subiect to principalities and powers and wrate himselfe to all the Saintes at Rome
You must bee subiect for conscience sake If the Saintes must bee subiect to Princes ergo the Church for the Church on earth is nothing els but the collection of Saintes And if euery soule that is euery man must bee subiect howe can the Church consisting of men bee exempted But if by the Church you meane the preceptes and promises giftes and graces of God preached in the Church and poured on the Church Princes must humbly obey them and reuerently receiue them as well as other priuate men So that Prophets Apostles Euangelists and all other buylders of Christes Church as touching their Persons bee subiect to the Princes power mary the word of trueth in their mouthes and the Seales of grace in their handes because they are of God not of themselues they be farre aboue the Princes calling and regiment and in those cases kinges and Queenes if they will bee saued must submit themselues to Gods euerlasting trueth and testament as well as the meanest of their people but this neither abateth the power which God hath giuen them ouer all men nor maketh them thrall to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee forced and punished at his pleasure and therefore this notwithstanding Princes bee supreme that is superiour to all and subiect to none but onely to God Phi. Who euer taught before you that Princes were subiect only to God Theo. The Church of Christ from the beginning Colimus Imperatorem vt hominem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem Wee reuerence the Emperour sayth Tertullian as a man next vnto God and inferiour only to God Againe Deum esse solum in cuius solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes super omnes Deos hommes It is onely God in whose power alone Princes are in comparison with him they bee second and after him first afore all and ouer all both Gods and men So likewise Optatus Super Imperatorem non est nisi solus Deus qui fecit Imperatorem Aboue the Empe-rour is none but onely GOD who made the Emperour And Chrysostome Parem vllum super terram non habet The Emperour hath no peere on earth much lesse any superiour And that Princes are aboue all Saint Paul is cleare Let euery soule bee subiect to the Superiour powers All must bee subiect to them ergo they bee superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Chrysostome calleth the Emperour The highest and head of all men vpon earth Iustinian sayth the Emperour hath receiued a common gouernement and Principalitie ouer all men Ambrose sayth of Theodosius that hee had power ouer all men And Gregorie as you hearde affirmeth that Power is giuen to Princes from heauen ouer all men not onely Souldiers but also Priestes And since I before concluded and you confessed all men were they Monkes Priestes Bishoppes or whatsoeuer to bee subiect to the Princes power and authoritie both in causes ecclesiasticall and temporall why shoulde that nowe bee reuoked or doubted Phi. I neuer did nor will confesse Princes to bee supreme For he that iudgeth on earth in Christes steade is aboue them all Theo. You come nowe to the quicke This very clayme was the cause why the woorde supreme was added to the othe for that the Bishoppe of Rome taketh vppon him to commaund and depose Princes as their lawfull and superiour iudge To exclude this wicked presumption wee teach that Princes be supreme rulers wee meane subiect to no superiour iudge to giue a reason of their doings but onely to God Phi. This you teach but this you can not prooue Theo. It forceth not what wee can doe The burden in this case to prooue is yours and not ours You say Princes bee subiect to the Popes Consistorie wee say they bee not Must wee prooue the negatiue or must you rather make good your affirmatiue Againe Saint Paul auoucheth with vs that euery soule is subiect to their power You contradict those woordes and say the Pope is not subiect but Superiour to Princes The generall in precise tearmes concludeth for vs you except the Pope must you not prooue your exception Phi. You be loth to proue you knowe the weakenes of your side Theo. You crosse the plaine wordes of the holy Ghost and woulde put vs to refute your fansies Phi. Wee say Christs Uicar is not included in those woordes Theo. Wee say the generall includeth euery particular Phi. How could Paul make Peter a subiect to Princes when Peter was none Theo. Why shoulde not Peter bee subiect to Princes when God himselfe pronounced by the mouth of Paul that euery soule was subiect to them Phi. Who euer constred S. Pauls words so besides you Theo. The Church of Christ neuer constred them otherwise Peter and the Bishoppes of Rome for the first three hundred yeeres did they not patiently submit themselues as subiects to those punishments and torments which heathen Princes inflicted on other Christians Phi. In deede they were martyred for the most part by the rage of Infidels that knewe them not Theo. And the Christians that knewe them neuer tooke armes to defend thē against the rage of Infidels but thought them subiect to higher powers by force of S. Pauls words as well as all other Bishoppes were Phi. They might not resist though they were wrongfully vexed Theo. And why might they not but because they were subiect by Gods ordinance to the Princes power Unlawfull violence might well bee resisted Phi. Christian Princes were neuer superiours to the Bishoppes of Rome Theo. Syr your courage is more than your cunning The Bishops of Rome for eight hundred and fiftie yeres after Christ that we can directly proue were duetifull and obedient subiects to Christian Emperours Phi. Are you not ashamed to tell such a tale Theo. Will you be ashamed of your error if I proue it a trueth Phi. Shewe mee that and I will yeeld the rest Theo. The rest is alreadie proued and this shall be presently shewed I might alleage that after the Romane Emperours began to professe the name of Christ Iulius and Liberius were banished by Constantius Bonifacius the first by Honorius Syluerius and Vigilius by Iustinian Martyne the first by Constantine the thirde and diuers other Popes by sundrie Princes but that I will skippe come to the submission of Leo the fourth made to Ludouike the West Emperour with these wordes If we haue done any thing otherwise than well and not dealt vprightly with those that are vnder vs wee will amend all that is amisse by the iudgement of your highnes beseeching your excellencie to sende for the better triall of these surmises such as in the feare of God may narrowly sift not onely the matters infourmed but all our doings great and smal as well as if your Maiestie were present so that by lawfull examination all may bee finished and nothing left vndiscussed or vndetermined In all things great and small the Pope
to keepe them he that might commaund not he that must obey Lotharius not Leo. Can you looke for stronger proofes or plainer wordes that the Prince was the Popes superiour in causes Ecclesiasticall If the Bishop of Rome were a SERVANT to christian Emperours then was he not their ruler If a SVBIECT vnder them then no superiour ouer them If SVPPLIANT to their persons and OBEDIENT to their lawes then no deposer of Princes nor reseruer of their edicts to bee short if they were correctors and iudges of his demainour and doinges then his claime to punish and depriue them of their kingdomes is vsurped and wicked and so Princes hauing no superiour but onely God are consequently supreme gouernours ouer all their subiectes be they laie-men or Clerkes to commaund that which is good and prohibite that which is euill not in ciuill affaires only but in matters also concerning diuine Religion Phi. I confesse places somewhat moue me neither can I vppon the suddaine answere them yet are there many both authorities and reasons that make with vs for the contrarie Theo. Shew me but one Scripture Father or Councell all this while that proueth the Pope to bee the Princes superiour and I will aske no further answere Phi. God saith to Ieremie I haue appointed thee this day ouer nations kingdomes to pull vppe to beate downe to disperse to ouerthrow to build and plant Theo. Was Ieremie euer Pope Phi. I doe not saie hee was Theo. Then that which God spake to Ieremie concludeth nothing for the Pope Phi. If a meane Prophet had that power to plant and remoue kingdomes how much more he that is head of the vniuersal church and iudge ouer the whole earth Theo. Your antecedent is false and your consequent foolish For Ieremie had no such power as you dreame of hee was appointed a Prophet to denounce the wrath of God against nations and Countries not a Prince to displace Rulers and translate kingdomes It is a grosse peruerting of the Scriptures to wrest them to that sense Next your consequent supposeth that the Pope is head of the vniuersall Church and iudge ouer the whole earth which vaine presumption is no good illation you must bring vs better conclusions before they wil be currant Phi. The text is plaine I haue appointed thee ouer nations and kingdomes Theo. I haue appointed thee ouer them not a Prince to subdue them but a Prophet to warne them Phi. How proue you that exposition Theo. The text it selfe saith so Prophetam Gentibus dedite I haue made thee a Prophet ouer nations And the verie next wordes before yours are these Ecce posui verba mea in ore tuo ecce constitui te hodie super gentes super regna c. Behold I haue put my wordes in thy mouth behold I haue appointed thee ouer nations and kingdomes that is a Prophet with my wordes in thy mouth not a magistrate with the materiall sworde in thine hand This we likewise proue by the execution of his office For he prophesied the captiuitie of the Iewes the taking of the king and the citie the destruction of the Aegyptians Philistines Moabites Ammonites Idumeans Persians Damascus Babylon and other kingdoms nations but he neuer deposed king nor altered state ergo his coÌ„mission was to foreshew the ruines ouerthrows decaies changes of kingdoms natioÌ„s common-wealthes not to practise them he was the man that foretolde them he was not he meanes to worke them Theodorete saith of these words I haue appointed thee ouer natioÌ„s kingdoms to pul vp beat down disperse ouerthrow build plant for he prophesied not only the Iewes captiuity but their deliuerance by Cyrus He prophesied also to many other nations al kinds of calamities And likewise Bernard Rusticani sudoris quodam schemate labor spiritualis expressus est Disce sarculo non sceptro tibi opus esse vt facias opus Prophetae By a certaine resemblance of the husbandmaÌ„s paines the spirituall labor of the Preacher is expressed Learne that thou must haue an hooke to weed not a scepter to rule if thou wilt do the worke of a Prophet Nicolaus de Lyra 1300. yeares after Christ could hit the right sense of this place I haue appointed thee to roote vp that is to denouÌ„ce the inhabitaÌ„ts shal be remoued out of the laÌ„d to built plaÌ„t that is to denouÌ„ce that the Iewes shal be builded plaÌ„ted again in their own couÌ„try This I take to be the right meaning of the text if that please you not but you will haue the Prophet himselfe to be the workman then Ieremy was sent not to plant and pul vp Priâ—â—es not to build and beate downe kingdomes but as your own gloze saith to roote vp vices to beate downe heresies to build vp vertues Euery plant saith Hierom vpon those words which the heauenly father hath not planted shal be rooted vp the building which hath not his foundation on the rock but in the sand is vndermined ouerthrown by the word of God And Gregory The Prophet is first willed to destroy after to build first to roote vp after to plant because the foundation of truth is neuer wel laid except the frame of error be first subuerted Yea Many saith HieroÌ„ vnderstand this place of the person of Christ which destroied the kingdom of the diuell Take which of these senses you like best so you bestowe not that on Ieremy which is proper to Christ to be king of kings Lord of lords nor allow him the liberty that God reserueth to himselfe to bear rule ouer the kingdom of men to giue it to whome hee will which no Prophet before Christ no Apostle since Christ no mortall creature euer claimed or vsed but onely the whoore of Babilon that raigneth ouer the kinges of the earth Phi. The nations and kings saith God by Esaie that wil not serue thee shall perish Theo. Whose translation is that Phi. The Septuagintes Theo. But the Hebrew is That nation and kingdom which wil not serue thee shall perish And so doth S. Hierom translate Phi. There is no great difference betwixt them Theo. As much as is betweene the Prince and the people Phi. Both Prince and people must serue the church or else they shall perish Theo. Wee reason not what they must doe but what Esaie saith and hee saith the kingdome must serue the king must nurce the church which is a word of more dignitie than seruice is Thou shalt sucke the breastes of kinges And againe Kinges shall bee thy foster fathers and Queenes thy nurcing mothers but I sticke not on this Phi. You neede not for in plaine wordes it is said a little before Reges eorum ministrabunt tibi Their kings shal serue thee Theo. Their kings shall attend thee or minister vnto thee The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth him that is next about a maÌ„
your holy father hath taught kings Emperours to waite on his trencher to hold his stirrop and kisse his feete Phi. We would haue Princes to serue that is to obey the church so S. Paul willeth them Obey your rulers be subiect to them for they watch as being to giue accōpt for your souls This is spoken as well to Princes as to priuate men Theo. You leape from one thing to an other neuer resolue certainly any thing Can you shew where S. Paul or Esaie or any other Prophet or Apostle teacheth Princes to be the Popes Bedels Bailifs to execute his pleasure The questiō betwixt vs is not whether princes as wel as others must be guided directed by religious godly Pastours the way to eternall life which is S. Pauls meaning in this place but whether the Pope cloathing himselfe with the name of the church may command the swords of Princes if he like not their doings take their kingdoms frō thē Do the places which you bring proue this that I mention say yea or no. Phi. Not expressely but only because the Pope is Christs Uicar on earth head of the church Theo. Will you neuer vnderstand how weake your proofes how wide they be from your intention First you stil presume we stil deny that your holy father is the head of the church and Christs Uicar general vpon the face of the earth On that false foūdatiō what God promiseth to the church in respect of her head which is Christ you closely conuey to the Bishop of Rome as heire apparant to that honor and excellency which Christ hath in his church a friuolous but a blasphemous imagination Next what submission obedience God requireth at al mens euen at Princes hands for the reuerencing of his word obseruing of his law that you wittingly confound with the temporall iurisdiction dominion that the church of Rome claimeth ouer Princes to command their scepters if they resist to depose their persons which is a wicked wilfull error If you loue truth deale plainly let this cunning go Phi. I seeke for truth let truth preuaile Theo. Would God you were so minded Phi. I am Theo. That shall wee see by your proceeding Phi. What say you by the wordes of S. Paul Obey your rulers Theo I say the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth leaders as well as rulers in this place standeth rather for leaders than rulers because S. Paul in this very chap. vsing the same worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remember your leaders addeth Beholding the end of their conuersation imitate their faith that is followe their steppes If wee must marke them and imitate them then surely must they be leaders to direct vs and not rulers to master vs. Secondly by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whether it be leaders or rulers are ment not the Pope and his Cardinals but all that be christian and godly Preachers this is S. Pauls own construction Remember your leaders which haue spoken to you the word of God We be not bound to their fansies or pleasures but only to the word of truth proceeding from their mouthes Lastly obedience here required is no corporal subiection to their persons but an inward liking and imbracing of their doctrine For as touching their persons whom it pleaseth you to call rulers in this place S. Paul maketh seruāts in other places We preach not our selues saith he but Christ Iesus to be the Lord our selues your seruants And againe Not that we haue dominion or rule ouer your faith but wee are helpers of your ioy And that was our Sauiours charge to them al. Kings of nations rule with you it shal not be so but whosoeuer wil be chiefe among you shal be the seruant of all Their function is as you see TO SERVE not to rule their brethren I meane to feede not to master the flock of Christ. Phi. The Apostle saith God hath placed thē To rule the Church Attend to your self to your whole flock ouer which the holy Ghost hath put you to rule the church Theo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not To rule the church but to feed the church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be no rulers but Sheepheards Are you not very desirous of rule when you thus wrest the Scriptures to make your selues rulers Phi. S. Hieroms translation hath Regere ecclesiam to rule the church That we follow The. You follow the old corrupt translatiō where it maketh for you and where you list you leaue it S. Hierom vpon the first chapter to Tite saith In quo posuit vos spiritus sanctus Episcopos pascere ecclesiam Dei not regere And yet regere is to lead guide with counsel as wel as to rule or force with authoritie as you may perceiue by dirigere the compound which is to direct any man what way he shal go what things he shal do what words he shal speake yet these be no rulers nor haue any iudiciall power ouer the parties so directed The english word that you abuse hath the same sense In many matters men are ruled by their friends in sicknes they are ruled by their Physition in traueling they bee ruled by their guides and yet neither friends Physitions nor guides haue any iurisdiction ouer the persons that are ruled by them Why then do you trouble the world with such ambiguities perplexities of words why speake you not distinctly why conclude you not directly The Bishops of Ephesus were set by the holy Ghost to attend their flock feede the church If by this you collect that they were placed by God to teach instruct the faithful how to walke in his waies that we graunt that we know to be most true so long as they do their message from God sincerely without adding altering or diminishing but if by colour of those wordes to rule the church you seeke to giue the Pope iudiciall power to compell and punish Princes as a Superiour iudge which is the point we striue for see what shamefull violence you offerre the Scriptures First you falsifie the Text by putting ruling for feeding the church Next you dawe the word ruling from instructing and exhorting which is Apostolike to commaunding and forcing which our Sauiour forbiddeth all his Disciples thirdly that which was spoken to the Elders of Ephesus and is common to all Pastours you present the Bishop of Rome with as his peculiar charge though hee neither feede nor leade the flocke And so where S. Paul ment the Bishops of Ephesus were set to teach and instruct their brethren you conclude the Pope must ouer-rule Princes and take their crownes from them if they yeelde not the sooner Phi. You mistake me I do not bring these places to that end Theo. To that end you should bring them for that is the doubt betwixt vs that was my demaund I required you to shewe Scripture
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
not admit which they said against others Hee euer doth that which the Arrians woulde haue and they againe saie that which hee liketh And whereas the Bishops in those dayes were wont to be lawfully chosen by the people of the place and sufficiently examined and allowed by other Bishops adioyning and openly created in the church Constantius in steede of the church would haue his palace succeed and for the multitude of people and right of assemblies to elect hee commaunded three Eunuches to bee present and three of his spies or prolers for you can not call them Bishops that they sixe in his palace might create one Felix a Bishop And noting what manner of Bishops the Emperour and his Eunuches made hee saith In illorum locum iuuenes libidinosos Ethnicos ne catechismo quidem imbutos necnon digamos de maximis criminibus malè audientes modò aurum darent veluti emptores è foro ad Episcopatus summisere They sent in their places that were banished yong men leacherous persons Ethnickes not so much as taught the first principles of faith hauing two wifes and spotted with enormous crimes so they would giue mony as cheepe-men out of a market The furious violence that was vsed in the time of Constantius to driue men to participate with Arrians not onely by imprisonmentes and banishmentes but by chaining whipping scalding with fire trampling vnder feete stoning choking and secret murdering such as refused without all respect of vocation age or sexe was so lamentable that no christian hart can read it without teares and it is so largely described and pithily disproued by Hilarie and Athanasius that no man except he be blinder than a bitle can doubt whether Constantius were a wilfull tyrant in the church of God or no. Peruse the places and you shall find proofes enough of that which I say I proclaime saith Hilarie that to thee Constantius which I woulde to Nero Decius and Maximinian thou fightest against God thou ragest against the Church thou doest persecute the Sainctes thou hatest the Preachers of Christ and ouerthrowest Religion a tyrant not in humane but in diuine thinges a newe kinde of enemie to Christ the forerunner of Antichrist I repeate nothing rather than thy doings in the Church because I would open no other tyrannie but that which thou vsest against God And Athanasius shewing the reasons why hee calleth Constantius Antichrist Who seeing or hearing saith he these thinges who considering the rage of these wicked ones and so great iniustice would not deepelie sigh at it Who hereafter will dare to call Constantius a Christian and not rather the image of Antichrist For which of Antichristes markes doth hee lacke Or what cause is there why Constantius should not in euerie respect bee counted Antichrist Haue not the Arrians and Ethnickes as it were by his precept vsed their sacrifices and blasphemies against Christ in the great church at Caesarium in Aegypt As a Giant he exalteth himselfe against the most high and hath inuented waies to change the◠Lawe of God breaking the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and inuerting the customes of the church And since he is cloathed with Christianitie and entereth into holy places there standing and wasting the churches Abrogating the Canons and by force compelling that his pleasure may preuaile who at any time will affirme that these dayes are peaceable to christians and not rather that this is a persecution and such a persecution as was neuer before and no man after shall make the like except that sonne of perdition which is the true Antichrist Howe thinke you did not these Fathers reproue Constantius for changeing the faith oppressing Synods corrupting iudgementes infringing the Canons barbarons enforcing the christians and shortly for subiecting all to his will and violence Phi. I knowe they make mention of these things but yet they reproue him generally for intermedling with Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I hope they reproued him for that he did Phi. The case is cleare they coulde not reproue him for that hee did not Theo. These things which I last rehearsed Constantius did as I proue by their witnesse that chiefly rebuked him ergo Constantius was reproued of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius for these thinges that is for playing the tyrant in diuine matters or as you call them in causes Ecclesiasticall Phi. But Osius saith Medle not O Emperour in causes Ecclesiastical nor do thou commaund vs in that kind but leaue such things to vs rather Theo. You were answered before but that you wil neuer be satisfied Osius dissuadeth Constantius from vsing his absolute power obstinate wil in those things that were then in question betwixt the Christians Arians He saw the manifolde and excessiue disorders of Constantius in forcing Synodes of Bishops by terror and violence to bow at his becke in making his palace a consistorie for their causes and there iudging what his Eunuches would in dissoluing the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and doing all thinges against the Rules of the church and therefore had good cause to saie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis neque nobis in hoc genere praecipe sed potius ea a nobis disce Enterpose not thy selfe as thou doest O Emperour in Ecclesiasticall matters neither commaund vs in this kinde but learne such things rather of vs and not as you say leaue such things rather to vs. God hath cōmitted the Empire to thee to vs the things of the church as he that enuieth thine Empire contradicteth the ordinance of God so take thou heede least drawing vnto thy selfe the things of the church thou be guilty of great sinne It is written Giue vnto Caesar that which is Caesars vnto God that which is Gods It is therefore neither lawfull for vs to holde a kingdome on earth neither hast thou power O Prince ouer sacrifices sacred things These words put a difference between the function of Priestes Princes shew that neither may intrude with ech others charge which we confesse with a good wil. But as Priestes must teach truth and conuict error that is their office so princes must commaund for truth and punish error because publike authoritie to commaund and punish is not the Priestes but the Princes right where-with Priestes must not meddle Phi. Yet the Prince must learne at the Priestes hande which is truth and which error Theo. If the Priest teach truth and the Prince reiect it the Prince shal answere to God for the cōtempt of truth but if the priest teach error in steed of truth a godly prince hath lawful power to banish the doctrine punish the teacher Phi. And if the Prince saie that truth is error error is truth shall truth be banished and the Priest punished vpon the Princes saying Theo. And what if the Priest saie that light is darkenesse and darkenesse light shall Princes be excused before God for
breath ergo the Prince conferreth life and breath to thē Or the Prince permitteth her Subiectes to beleeue in God and relieue ech others ergo the Prince conferreth faith and charitie to them Phi. It giueth her to do that which is more euen to prescribe by her selfe or her deputies or lawes authorised onely by her selfe which waie to worship and serue God how and in what forme to minister the Sacramentes to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which waie she will be gouerned in soule Theo. That Princes may prescribe what faith they list what seruice of God they please what forme of administring the Sacraments they thinke best is no part of our thought nor point of our doctrine And yet that Princes may by their lawes prescribe the christian faith to be preached the right seruice of God in spirit and truth to be vsed the Sacraments to be ministred according to the Lords institution this is no absurditie in vs to defend but impietie rather in you to withstande And that Princes may punish both Bishoppes and others for heresie dissention and all kinde of iniquitie by banishing and commaunding them to bee remoued from their Churches which you call depriuing cā not now be coūted absurd vnlesse you reiect the stories of the church and lawes of christian Princes which I before cited as absurd For there shall you finde that Emperours by their Lawes and Edictes haue commaunded Bishops to be iudicially depriued by other bishops actually displaced by their temporal Magistrates as well for erronious teaching as vicious liuing Phi. When you giue princes supreme power in matters of religion you giue thē leaue to do what they lift The. If you affirm that of vs your report is vtterly vntrue if you infer it vpon vs your reason is very ridiculous For what a fond illation is this Princes be supreme that is not subiect to the Popes iurisdictiō ergo princes may lawfully do what they wil. Phi. We say not lawfully but if there be none to cōtrole thē none can let thē to do what they list The. The dreadful iudgements of God not the leud practises of Popes must bridle Princes frō doing euill If they feare not a reuenger in heauen whom they can not escape they will neuer regard a conspirator in earth whom they may soone preuent yet we dispute not what tyrāts de facto wil do but what godly Princes of dutie should of right may do This is it that we seek for therfore you must conclude this or nothing Phi. You giue thē authority to make lawes punish for religion without anie mētion of truth or error The. The oth expresseth not their duty to God but ours to thē as they must be obeied whē they ioin with truth so must they be endured whē they fal into error which side soeuer they take either obediēce to their wils or submissiō to their swords is their due by Gods law that is al which our oth exacteth And yet when we professe thē to be gouernors that word restraineeh thē from their own lusts referreth thē to Gods ordināce For they which resist God impugn the truth oppresse the righteous assist error fauor impietie be no gouernors vnder God as all princes oughtto bee but tyrantes against God not bearers but wilful abusers of the sword which God hath appointed for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well And this though it be not expressed yet is it euer imploied in the very scepters swords thrones of princes For dominiō power maiesty belōg of right to god alone are by him imparted to Princes with this condition to this end that they shold raign vnder him not ouer him cōmand for him not against him be honored obeied after him not before him therefore this quarrell sauoreth not of ignorance but of malice when you say we giue Princes power to do what they wil in matters pertaining to God his seruice We reiect detest that sinful assertion more than you do In deede we say that the Pope may not pull Princes crownes frō their heads nor seeke to master them with contriuing rebellions treasons against them whiles hee pretendeth to depose them In this onely sense wee defende them to bee supreme that is not at libertie to do what they lift without regard of truth or right but without superiour on earth to represse them with violent meanes and to take their kingdomes from them Phi. It maketh the bodie aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spirituall the earthly kingdom aboue Christes mysticall bodie It maketh the sheepe aboue the Pastour it giueth her power to commaund them whom wherein she is bound to obey It giueth power to the subiect to be iudge of the iudges yea of God himselfe as S. Cyprian speaketh Theo. I am loth to bring you out of loue with your owne conceits otherwise I neuer saw more boldnes lesse soundnes in any man If we did preferre earthly things before heauenly you might iustly charge vs that we set the body aboue the soule but betweene Princes Priests that comparison is foolish except you thinke Priests to be without bodies Princes without soules which were a mery deuise The spirituall regiment which Christ hath ouer the faithfull in his Church is infinitely before the temporal regiment of Princes ouer their subiects But if by this you would inferre that good Princes may not punish euill Priestes you deface godlinesse and trueth in Princes as temporall and exact wickednesse and error in Priestes as spirituall which is more than absurde As for the right functions of Preachers and Princes if that bee the matter you speake of for you speake so doubtfully that wee can gather no certaintie what you meane know you that as in spiritual perfection and consolation the Preacher excelleth the Prince by many decrees God hauing appointed Preachers not Princes to bee the sowers of his seede messenges of his grace stewardes of his mysteries so for externall power and authoritie to compell punish which is the point that we stande on God hath preferred the Prince before the Priest so long as the Prince commaundeth that which God alloweth And in this case wee make not temporall aboue spirituall as you tricke it with termes but auouch that the same God who teacheth the simple and leadeth the willing by the Preachers mouth driueth the negligent and forceth the froward by the Princes sword which himselfe that is a spirit and the father of spirites hath ordained to that end The mystical bodie of Christ which is his church containeth not only Prists bishops but all the faithfull in heauenly graces inward vertues far exceedeth all earthly kingdomes and yet hath God himselfe authorized the sword on earth in Princes handes to be keepers
Gods appointment ergo they beare it in all thinges where the sworde must or may be vsed as well spirituall as temporall Phi. No doubt where the sword must or may bee borne they beare it but howe proue you that in spirituall thinges and causes the temporal sword must or may bee vsed Theo. Pitch that for the question and trie how wel you shall speede with it Phi. Wee neuer denyed but in some sort the temporall sword might bee vsed for spirituall thinges and causes as namely to defend the fayth and Canons of the Church and to put them in execution This Princes may do and must doe with their royall power but they may not commaund what they list in ecclesiasticall causes as you would haue them Theo. You snarle stil when you see your selfe brought to the wall What we woulde haue Princes to doe shall soone appeare if you cease from slaundering and keepe to the matter Our tongues ake with telling you that we hold no such opinion and yet you neuer leaue grating at vs as if we did The point that nowe wee stande at is this whether in a Christian common wealth the temporall sworde as you call it that is the publike authoritie of the Magistrate must bee vsed to receiue establish and defende the true faith of Christ and wholesome discipline of his Church and to prohibite displace and punish the contrarie say nay if you dare Phi. Wee neuer ment it Theo. Then in all spirituall thinges and causes Princes onely beare the sword that is haue publike authoritie to receiue establish and defende all poyntes and partes of Christian Doctrine and Discipline within their Realmes and without their helpe though the fayth and Canons of Christes Church may bee pryuately professed and obserued of such as bee willing yet can they not bee generally planted and setled in any kingdome nor vrged by publike Lawes externall punishments on such as refuse but by their consents that beare the sword This is it that wee say refell it if you can Phi. This is not your opinion but ours Wee confesse Princes to bee defenders of the faith and assisters of the Church with their secular might and power you auouche them to bee supreme moderatours and directours of all spirituall thinges and causes without restraint Theo. Wee auouche you to bee Supreme lyars and that which is worse you thinke with facing in time to get some credite to your fabling You finde no such thing in our words nor deedes as you report of vs. We confesse Princes to bee supreme gouernours that is as wee haue often told you supreme bearers of the sworde which was first ordained from aboue to defend and preserue as well goodlines and honestie as peace and tranquillitie amongest men We giue Princes no power to deuise or inuent new religions to alter or change Sacraments to decide or debate doubtes of faith to disturbe or infringe the canons of the church The publike power and outward meanes which God hath vnited and annexed to their swords as namely to commaund by their Edicts and dispose the goods and bodies of such as resist them this power and meanes wee say must be conuerted and vsed first to the seruice and glorie of God next to the profit and welfare of their Realmes that is as much or rather more for thinges spirituall than temporall Phi. If you giue Princes no iudicial nor spiritual power in matters of religiō but an externall and temporall power to permit and establish that which God commaundeth howe can they bee supreme Theo. Supreme they be for that by Gods Lawe they bee not vnder the Popes checke and correction though to leade on the simple sort with a better shewe you conceale that superiority which the Pope chalengeth ouer Princes and enter your whole action for the Church which woord you knew was more gratious and will in no case bee brought to take our meaning right lest you shoulde bee driuen either to proue your assertion which you can not or to confesse ours which you will not And therefore you wrest the word supreme against the very grounds of our common fayth and rules of your priuate speach to make it seeme false and absurde and then as valiant Captaines you wrestle with the fansies which your selues haue deuised fighting thus with your own shadowes you thinke your Seminaries the only lights and lanternes of Christendome but you must go more syncerely to worke before you can winne the cause Phi. Supreme is superiour to all and subiect to none Theo. And so bee Princes superiour to all men within their Realmes and subiect to no man without their Realmes Phi. What superiour to Christ the Church and all Theo. Haue you neuer done with that idle and eluish obiection Wee compare not man with God nor bodies on earth with spirites in heauen but wee conferre mortall men with their like bearing flesh about them which the sworde may touch and in comparison of them wee say Princes are superiour to all men within their dominions Bishoppes and others and subiect to no man without their dominions Prelate nor Pope to bee commaunded corrected and deposed by their tribunals This is the supremacie which wee attribute to Princes that all men within their Territories shoulde obey their Lawes or abide their pleasures and that no man on earth hath authoritie to take their swordes from them by iudiciall sentence or martiall violence Leaue wrangling and rouing and speake directly to this question Phi. I will if you first graunt that your meaning is not so large as your woordes bee Theo. You would fayne seeme with your eloquent nifles to woorke some masteries but it will not bee Our woordes are no larger than our meaning and both be true Phi. Why supreme is superiour to al none excepted no not Christ himselfe The. And what are these phrases the most holy the most mightie the most blessed which you applie to the Pope do they except Christ or no Phi. If nothing else be added they doe not by rigor of comparison but common vse of speach vnderstandeth them of earthly men and alwayes excepteth first God with whom there can bee none compared and next his Saints which be farre from vs in an other and better life Theo. I crie you mercie You may salute your Romish Pharaoh when you will with the most mightie Priest the most blessed father the chiefe Pastor and many such loftie stiles and wee must come after with salt and spoones and conceaue that Christ is excepted though he bee not because your flatteries bee common and if wee to signifie that Princes by Gods lawe bee not vnder the Popes yoke defende them to bee superiour to all men at home and subiect to no mans Courts or Consistories abroade and therfore call them supreme Gouernours of their owne people and Countries you sounde alarme against vs as if wee went about to defeate Christ of his kingdome and disseism
spared by Prinâ—es shoulde bee driuen to earnest and open repentaunce before they bee â—eceiued into the Church or admitted to the diuine mysteries yea rather I thâ—nke it very needefull in a Christian common-wealth that God bee pleased and the Church preserued from all felowshippe with these monsterous impieties as well as the Scepter is intreated for their liues but that you shoulde exempt or saue the workers of wickednes from the Princes sworde and their iust desertes by your priuileges or penances in steede of punishmentes that is quite repugnant to the sacred Scriptures Saint Paul sayth the Prince is Gods minister to reuenge him that doeth euill and not the Priest You may not reuenge malefactours you may separate your selues from them and haue no communion with them the Prince must punish them It passeth your Commission to beare the sworde and without the power of the sworde your corporall correcting and afflicting of them is vnlawfull and wrongfull violence And so for tythes testaments administrations seruitude legitimations and such like you went beyonde your boundes when you restrayned them to your Courtes and without Caesar made Lawes for thinges that belonged vnto Caesar. The goodes Landes Liuings States and families of Lay men and Clerkes are Caesars charge not yours and therefore your decrees iudgements and executions in those cases if you claime them from Christ as thinges spirituall not from Caesar as matters committed of trust to you by Christian Princes are nothing else but open and wilfull inuasions of other mens rightes you chaunging the names and calling those things spirituall and ecclesiasticall which in deede bee ciuill and temporall and shouldering Princes from their cusshins who first suffered Bishoppes to sitte iudges in those causes of Honour to their Persons and fauour to their functions which on your part is but a bad requitall of their Princely graces and benefites Phi. Affinitie consanguinitie contractes mariages diuorces and a number of those which you recken are thinges that depende vpon the lawes of GOD and haue often times such questions incident to them as none but Bishoppes are fit to resolue Theo. All vertues and vices all the partes of mans life both priuate and publike as namely the dueties of Princes Counsellours Captaines Iudges Parents Husbandes Masters Subiectes Souldiers Children Wiues and Seruants yea the woords thoughts and actions of all men depend in this respect vppon the woorde of God whether they shall bee followed as lawfull or auoyded as vnlawfull and haue often tymes in them such questions as none but diuines are â—it to resolue will you therefore inferre that all crimes causes and consultations domesticall Politicall and martiall are within the limittes of your spirituall iurisdiction to bee guided ordered and ended as it seemeth good to your Ghostly fathers Phi. Bishoppes haue power to binde and loose as well in all sinnes as in some Theo. Bishoppes are to teach and instruct men what the will of GOD is in all priuate publike spirituall temporall yea ciuill and warlike affayres but their authoritie goeth no farther than to denounce the woorde and dispence the Sacramentes in such sort as GOD hath prescribed them It passeth their power to make Lawes and appoynt externall and corporall punishments for any sinne that is proper to the sword which GOD hath ordayned of purpose to compell and punish for the better execution of his will and obseruation of his Lawe which â—ee things of all other most spirituall And therefore as Preachers by their office haue instruction and direction in all thinges both temporall and spirituall to compare them and pronounce them consonant or dissonant with the Lawe of GOD so Princes haue compulsion and correction annexed to their swordes as well for spirituall causes as temporall or rather of the twaine to see Godlinesse and honestie preserued amongst men than foode and rayment prouided Phi. This were a Paradoxe in deede that the Princes sworde was first ordayned by God rather for spirituall thinges and causes than for temporall Theo. None at all if you marke it well To buyld and plant sowe and reape eate and drinke there needed no sworde on earth but to preserue the Rules of pietie charitie sobrietie and equitie amongest men for this cause were Magistrates first ordayned by God and these bee thinges precisely and properly called spirituall in the sacred Scriptures The lawe is spirituall sayth the Apostle and the commaundement both the whole and euery part of it is holy iust and good which bee the right notes of spirituall vertues If then the sworde were first erected by GOD to defend and execute the partes and braunches of his Lawe and the contentes of his Lawe be spirituall ergo the Princes power was first ordayned of God for thinges spirituall and not onely for temporall as you fondly dreame and are foully deceiued And this is the meaning of Saint Paul when hee sayth that Princes are not to bee feared for good workes but for euill With whome Saint Peter agreeth calling the king preeminent for the punishment of euil doers and the prayse of them that doe well Nowe good and euill are to bee measured by Gods law not by mans for as no man is good but only God so no mans Lawe is the rule of good and euill but onely Gods And temporall thinges bee neither good nor euill but altogether indifferent ergo Princes were not ordayned of God for temporall things but the goods bodyes and liues of their subiects were coÌ„mitted to their handes for spirituall respects that is for the preseruation of fayth and good maners which shall go for spirituall thinges and causes when your tithes and testaments shall stande backe for temporall Phi. Understand you what temporall is Theo. It should seeme you doe not by your diuiding temporall against spirituall Repugnant to spiritual is carnall corporall and naturall not temporall as you counter set them and opposite to temporall is not spirituall but eternall And here you may see the falsenes and absurdnes of your diuision The spirituall thinges which your Courtes discusse bee temporall not eternall for after this life there bee no such questions nor actions The keyes and Sacraments in which consisteth your spirituall power bee not eternall but temporall they serue for the Church in earth not in heauen Saint Paul will teache you that Prophesyings tongues and knowledge notwithstanding they bee giftes of the spirite and namely rehearsed among spirituall thinges by the holy Ghost yet shall they cease and bee abolished So that all the spiritual things which wee striue for are but temporall and thinges eternall bee neither vnder the Priestes power nor the Princes but reserued onely to God and expected onely from God Phi. Eternall they bee not but spirituall they bee Theo. Then may the selfe-same thinges bee both spirituall and temporall which euerteth cleane your loose diuision of Temporall against spirituall Phi. Temporall wee call those thinges that serue to maintaine this temporall
greater part of those which professe christianitie or some speciall places or persons must for euer be directed vnto all truth and preserued from all error this can not be concluded by these wordes Phi. To teach all truth and preserue in truth and from errour the holy Ghost is promised and perfourmed onely to the church and the chiefe gouernour and generall councels thereof Theo. In deede you take vpon you like Gouernors to appoint what the son of God shal meane who must haue the holy Ghost as if the matter were in your hands not in his Phi. Do we take vpon vs to limit the holy Ghost Theo. What else do you when of your owne heades you restraine the words of our Sauior as you liâ—t Phi. As we list Theo. Our Sauiours words are When that spirit of truth commeth he shal teach you al truth This say you is promised perfourmed only to the church the chiefe Gouernor the Pope and generall Councels thereof As if You in S. Iohns Gospel did signifie none but the Pope the chiefe Gouernor and such Bishops as the Pope will admit to his conferences which you call the generall councels of the church and what is this else but to diuide the holy Ghost as you thinke good Phi. The rulers of the church must needs haue the holy Ghost Theo. Meane you all or some Phi. The most part of them Theo. How proue you that to be Christes meaning that the most part of them which can procure themselues miters or rather catch vp Bishoprickes shall be sure of the holy Ghost in such measure that they shall neuer mistake the saith nor any parte thereof Phi. If they should erre the church should erre Theo. You run from bad to worse Your own law wil shew you the falsenes peruersnes of your Rhemish obseruations and expositions Quaero de qua Ecclesia intelligas quod hic dicitur quod non possit errare Side ipso Papa certum est quod Papa errare potest Respondeo Ipsa congregatio fidelium hic dicitur Ecclesia talis Ecclesia non potest non esse I demaund of what church it is ment when it is saide as here that the church can not erre If of the Pope himselfe it is certaine that the Pope may erre I answere the congregatioÌ„ of the faithfull is here called the church and that church can not chose but continue The spirit of truth is not promised to the Pope nor to his councels but to the faithfull whether they be seuered or assembled and they shall not erre that is they shall not perish in errour as the wicked do but shall either be recouered from their errour or find mercy for their ignorance Phi. May the whole church erre Theo. If wee shoulde graunt you that the whole church can not erre to wit that all the faithfull on the earth at one time can not bee deceiued in any necessarie point of faith but that Christ for his promise sake will preserue truth amongest them what is this to the Pope or his Cardinals or Conuenticles to whom you conuey the holy Ghost by inheritance Phi. Neuer delude vs with ifs but tell vs whether you think the whole church may erre or no. Theo. In matters of faith wee thinke it can not Phi. If the church can not er the Gouernors of the church can not The. Leaue trifling and fall to reasoning The whole church can not erre ergo what Phi. Ergo the Pastors Preachers can not erre Theo. Conclude you all or none Phi. To say no Pastour can erre were apparent madnesse Theo. And the next which is all Pastours can not erre doeth you no pleasure For the Bishop of Rome may erre so may the rest of his mitred and twiforked creatures yet many good Pastours and Preachers keepe fast to the faith Howbeit this conclusion doth not follow vpon my confession The whole church I graunt can not er that is all and euery the faithful can not er therefore all Pastours can not er this is no kind of consequeÌ„t For some of the faithful may be directed vnto truth they no pastors nor preachers many preachers may be preserued from errour they no Bishops many Bishops may be kept in the faith and they not assembled a great number of those that be assembled may bee rightly affected and yet not the most part of them and the greater side may be wel disposed and yet not the Bishop of Rome whom you make to be the moderator and guider of all councels And therefore your argument is very childish The whole church can not erre ergo generall councels can not erre and specially the Pope which later part your best friendes haue not onely refuted as false but also detested for incredible and shamefull flatterie Phi. So say you Theo. So say they Alfonsus that wrote bitterly against Luther when he came to this point dealt plainely in these wordes Non credo aliquem esse adeo impudentem Papae assentatorem vt ei tribuere hoâ— velit vt nec errare possit I can not thinke any man to be so impudent a flatterer of the Pope as to attribute this vnto him that he can not er Phi. Alfonsus hath no such words Theo. You say truth Alfonsus now hath not but Alfonsus had those wordes in his former editions And this commendeth your cunning that you can curtaile the writinges of your fellowes leaue out what you list when you new print them Phi. It was his owne correcting in his seconde edition Theo. Whether it was his doing or yours we care not the wordes remaine in the olde Printes to the manifest condemnation of your follie and flatterie in this behalfe And in his new copies though he qualifie his termes hee holdeth flatly the same opinion Omnis homo errare potest in fide etiam sipapa sit Euerie man may erre in faith euen the Pope himselfe And so you heard your owne gloze before affirme It is certaine the Pope may erre The same is confessed by the best of your side both canonistes and diuines Panormitane saith Concilium potest condemnare Papam de haeresi vt in cap. Si Papa Distinct. 40. vbi dicitur quod Papa potest esse haereticus de haeresi iudicari A councell may condemne the Pope of heresie as appeareth in the 40. Distinct. cap. Si Papa Where it is saide that the Pope may be an heretik iudged of heresie Lyra saith Multi summi Pontifices inuenti sunt apostatasse à side Many Popes haue proued apostataes Augustinus de Ancona Papa est deponendus pro haeresi ad CoÌ„ciliuÌ„ spectat PapaÌ„ in haeresi deprehensum condeÌ„nare vel deponere The Pope may be deposed for heresie A couÌ„cel may condemn or depose the Pope deprehended in heresie Antonius Archbishop of Florence Pro haeresi Papa congruè ipso facto
mentio habetur In the said declaration of Pope Nicolas there is mention made of renouncing the proprietie only but none other right And so Ius aliud a proprietate habuisse potuerunt they might haue some other right besides the proprietie Phi. So they might Theo. As if Christ and his Apostles had been cunning in the ciuill Lawes to renounce the proprietie for a fashion and yet to reserue an interest in those thinges which they seemed to renounce so that they might both keepe and vse them at their willes This exposition that Christ taught men to renounce the proprietie of their goods and reserue the vse is as false and hereticall as the former assertion of Pope Nicolas that Christ and his Apostles renounced their right in al earthly things both in special and common and taught others to do the like Your gloze tumbleth a long while in the myre after he hath confessed the one to be expresly contrarie to the other at length submitteth himselfe to the Church of Rome though hee see not howe to loose the knot Nicolaus the second in a Councel of 114. Bishoppes appointed Berengarius to confesse that The very body of Christ is in trueth and sensually broken and brused in pieces with the teeth of the faithful this confession the Pope receiued allowed and sent to the Bishoppes of Italie Germanie and Fraunce as catholike which your owne gloze saith is a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held Phi. Hee saith it is vnlesse you vnderstand it soberly Lheo And that sober vnderstanding hee graunteth must bee cleane against the text For where the text affirmeth this of y◠very body of Christ excludeth the outward sacrament as the words declare your gloze sayth that vnlesse you vnderstand this of the outward formes of bread and wine and not of the bodie of Christ it is a greater heresie than that of Berengarius and so is it in deede a very palpable a brutish error and can no way bee salued except you take the woords cleane contrarie to themselues which conuinceth the Pope and his whole Councell of a monsterous error Phi. This was Berengarius fault in his confession but not the Popes iudgement or resolution Theo. You would faine wind out if the text it selfe did not hold you fast but there it is sayde that Pope Nicolas and the Synode deliuered this faith and assured it to be Apostolike and Euangelike And therefore if Berengarius erred in subscribing this fourme of confession the Pope his Councell erred in prescribing the same Phi. You take nice aduantages of words which men may soone misse Theo. The heresie of Arius differed but one letter from the truth and yet his doctrine wa◠very blasphemous One word may containe a whole kingdome of impietie Phi. The best is you find not many such ouersightes in the Popes decrees Theo. You print and publish none but such as you thinke your selues able to defend suppressing the rest that might bee chalenged and then you aske vs howe wee prooue that euer the Bishoppe of Rome gaue definitiue sentence against the fayth in open Court or Councel which refuge of yours is very ridiculous For what hath Christes prayer for Peter to doe with definitiue sentences and open Consistories If the Pope may beleeue defende and preach an error what neede wee care whether his sentence bee conclusiue or perswasiue definitiue or interlocutorie And so for the place what skilleth it where and in whose presence the words be written or spoken if they be certainely his And where you thinke it maketh much for the Bishoppe of Rome that wee can not proue these errors of Popes to haue beene definitiuely pronounced in their publike Consistories if that were true as it is not you shew your selues to be but wranglers For wee can name an infinite number of Bishoppes and Churches that neuer erred in this speciall precise maner which you propose Howe prooue you that euer the Bishops of Yorke or Durham in England of Poycters or Lions in Fraunce of Valeria or Carduba in Spaine of Rauennas or Rhegium in Italie of Corinth or Athens in Greece of Miletus or Sardis in Asia gaue definitiue sentence against the faith in their publike consistories A thousande others I coulde obiect on whom that thing shall neuer bee fastened which you crake can not be proued by the Bishop of Rome Heretikes haue been euer conuinced by their confessions writings not by their definitiue sentences or iudiciall proceedings And therefore if Popes haue erred in writing and teaching they were as right heretikes as euer were Arius Sabellius Nestorius Eutiches and such like which neuer gaue definitiue sentēce against the faith in Courts and Consistories but onely taught or wrate against the truth Phi. Though one or two Bishops of Rome were deceiued they erred not so often there as in other places Theo. Set Constantinople aside and in no one See did the bishops erre oftener than in Rome but this is not our marke If one or two haue erred why may not others Yea though none of them had erred heretofore yet that which is possible may happen hereafter and so long they can be no absolute iudges of trueth Phi. If they might erre they were no fit iudges of faith but because their Tribunall is the highest that is in the Church they must therfore be free from error Theo. You euer proue that which we doubt of by y◠which is more doubtful We denie the Popes Tribunal to bee the highest that is in the church Prouinciall and generall Councels by the Canons are aboue him And in matters of faith the highest Court that is in earth may misse therfore no man is bound to Pastor Prelate or councel farther than their decrees be coherēt agreeable with the faith For against God we owe neither audience nor obedience vnto the perswasions or precepts of any men Phi. No question we must as well in faith as in manners obey rather God than man and therefore if the iudgements of bishops and conclusions of Councels might be repugnant to the word of God duetie bindeth vs to preferre the preceptes of God before the pleasures of men but it is not possible that God should leaue his Church without direction and directed shee can not bee but by iudgement and in giuing iudgement the head must be highest and so the soundest left that peruert the rest and endanger the whole bodie Theo. The church of Christ neuer was nor euer shall bee without direction but that direction proceedeth from the word and spirit of Christ not from the courts and Consistories of Popes Assemblees of learned Bishoppes voyd of pride and strife are good helpes to trie the faith and moderate the discipline of the Church and the greater the better yet the direction of Gods holy Spirite and infallible determination of trueth is not annexed to any certaine places Persons or numbers
three admonitions and the last publike after the which if that take not place we shal be excused before God if we no longer accept him that did vs wrong in the number of our brethren Let him be to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane that is sayth S. Augustine Noli illum deputare iam in numero fratrum tuorum nec ideo tamen salus eius negligenda Do not accompt him in the number of thy brethren and yet his saluation must not bee neglected For the Ethnikes themselues that is heathen men and Pagans wee doe not recken to bee our brethren and yet we seeke to saue them By this you may doe well to erect a Court where euery subiect may sewe his Prince for priuate iniuries and to make your selues Iudges of all such matters that if the Prince refuse your order you may take his Crowne from him Is not this thinke you good diuinitie for a Christian Common-wealth Phi. If hee that will not heare the Church in priuate offences betweene man and man must bee taken and vsed as an heathen how much more he that will not heare nor obey the Church in publike and haynous sinnes against God Theo. Take the place howe you will of priuate or publike iniuries or sinnes against man or against God no such thing is consequent as you would seeme to inferre If hee heare not the Church whosoeuer whensoeuer in what cause soeuer graunt all this that your antecedent may bee the freer from checke or chaunce what will you conclude Phi. He must bee to vs as an heathen Theo. And what then must heathen Princes bee depriued of their Crownes and Scepters Was not Caesar an heathen when our Sauiour willed all men to giue to Caesar the thinges which were Caesars Was hee not an heathen Magistrate before whome Christ stoode when hee sayde Thou couldest haue no power ouer mee vnlesse it were giuen thee from aboue Were they not heathen Princes to whome Peter and Paul required and charged all Christian Princes to bee subiect without all resistance Did not the Church of Christ taught by them so to doe submit her selfe for the space of three hundered yeeres to heathen Princes and those terrible and most bloudie tyrants Phi. We deny not this Theo. You can not If then disobayers of the Church must be vsed no worse than heathens and publicanes ergo they must neither bee spoiled of their goodes nor afflicted in their bodies nor remoued from their seates if they be Princes For these things by Gods Law the Church might not offer to Pagans nor Publicans Phi. This that Christ saith if he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and a Publicane is by the iudgement of S. Augustine more grieuous than if he were slaine with the sword consumed with fier or torne with wilde beastes Theo. And why because the iudgement of God to the which he is reserued shall bee more heauie to him than any humane torments can be And this maketh rather against you than with you For if the neglecter of the Church shal be so grieuously punished at Gods hands why doe you challenge to your selues the corporal correcting and chastising of such as disobay the Church And so Saint Augustine expoundeth himselfe It is by and by added saith he by our Sauiour Amen I say vnto you What you bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen that we should vnderstand how grieuous a punishment it is to bee left vnpunished by man and to be reserued to the iudgement of God Phi. The Church hath decreed that heretikes shall not beare rule ouer Catholikes and this voice of the Church all men are bound to heare vnlesse they will be counted for Pagans and Infidels Theo. First the Church can make no such decree next the Church of Christ neuer made any such Decree Phi. May not the Church make that Decree Theo. Shee may not Her power concerneth the soules of men and not their bodies and neuer goeth beyond the word and Sacraments Shee may not intermeddle with the temporal states and inheritances of Priuate men against their willes much lesse with the thrones and swords of Princes The Church cannot giue leaue that children shall disobay their Parents nor seruants their Masters nor weomen their husbandes because God hath already commanded they shall obay whose precepts the Church is with al reuerence to receiue and with all diligence to obserue and not to frustrate or hinder the least iote of his heauenly will and Testament If any particular places or persons attempt the contrarie they cease to be the Church of GOD in that they wilfully reiect and change the worde of God S. Augustine saith well Non debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere The Church may not preferre her selfe before Christ. Neither may we beleeue the true Churches them selues vnlesse they say and doe those things that are consonant to the Scriptures Yea we must accurse the Angels in heauen if they should do otherwise The whole Church oweth the same dutie to all and euery the precepts of God that ech priuate person doth And therfore shee may not dissolue nor disappoint the least of them Now the Church her selfe is commanded by the mouth of Christ and his Apostles to honor and obay Princes For these precepts be general touch the whole church Giue to Caesar the things that be Caesars Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers Submit your selues to the king as the chiefest For so is the will of God neither Monke Priest Prelate Pope Euangelist or Apostle exempted as in the place where I haue already shewed Ergo shee hath no right to dishonour or depose Princes nor to licence their subiects to resist them at her will and on her warrant which is the grounde that you build on Phi. They be but flatterers of Princes that so say or heretikes that so thinke that the ministers of Christes most deare spouse of his very mysticall bodie his kingdome house on earth whom at his dâ—parture hence he did indowe with most ample commissioÌ„ and sent foorth with that authoritie that his father before gaue vnto him haue no power ouer Princes to denounce or declare them to be violators of Gods and the Churches Lawes nor to punish them either spiritually or temporally not to excommunicate them nor to discharge the people of their oth and obedience towards such as neither by Gods Law nor mans a true Christian may obay Theo. If we knewe not your accustomed brauerie you might somwhat trouble vs with your insolent vanities but now we haue so good experience of your fierce lookes and faint harts that we neede not feare your force Bring somwhat besides your own conceit that the Pope may depose Princes and then call vs flatterers and heretikes at your pleasure If not take heede you proue not presumpteous and stately rebels against God and man I winne you be the
their eyes which all the godly beleeue with their heartes If oyle bee wanting they bee perfect Magistrates notwithstanding and Gods annointed as well as if they were inoyled And so for the person of the Bishoppe that doeth annoynt them It is fittest it be done by the highest but yet if they can not or will not any Bishoppe may perfourme it Authoritie to condition with Princes at the tyme of their coronation the Bishoppe hath none hee is faythfully to declare what GOD requireth at the handes of Princes not in religion onely but in rewarding vertue reuenging sinne relieuing the poore and innocent repressing the violent procuring peace and doing iustice throughout their Realmes and that if they faile in any of these God will not faile seuerely to visite the breach of his Lawe and contempt of their callings but yet hee hath no commission to denounce them depriued if they misse in some or all of these dueties much lesse to drawe Indentures betweene God and Princes conteyning the forfeiture of their crownes with a clause for the Pope and no man else to reenter if they keepe not couenants Phi. You graunt they bee bounde to God to defend the Church and true Religion Theo. Euen so bee they bound to doe those other thinges which I before rehearsed The couenaunt which God made with the Prince of his people was to feare the Lorde his God and to keepe not some but all the wordes of his Law The othe which the Kinges of Englande take hath many thinges besides the defence of the fayth and the Church The King shall feare God and loue him aboue all things and keepe gods precepts through his whole kingdome Hee shall aduance good Lawes and approoued customes and banish all euill Lawes from his kingdome Hee shal doe right iudgement in his realme and maintaine iustice by the counsell of his Nobles with many other points there specified All these thinges the King in his owne person shall sweare beholding and touching the holy Gospel in the presence of the people the Priestes and the Clergie before hee bee crowned by the Archbishoppes and Bishoppes of his Realme Shal a king bee deposed if hee reuolt as you call it from his promise and othe in any of these points Phi. Heresie and infidelitie tend directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiects and notoriously to the annoyance of the Church true Religion Theoph. Wee compare not vices but discusse the vitiousnes of your conclusion Kinges you say couenant with GOD at their annointing That othe and promise if they breake with God the people you adde may and by order of Christs supreme minister their chiefe Pastor in earth must needes breake with them If by BREAKING you ment not obeying them in those particular cases which tend to the defacing of Gods trueth your illation were not much amisse for in all things wee must obey God rather than man but by BREAKING you vnderstand an vtter refusing of obedience in all other cases and a violent remoouing them from their crownes which we say is not lawfull for Pastor nor people to atteÌ„pt against princes though they answere not their duties to God in euerie point They couenant at the same time and with the same oth the keeping and obseruing of the whole lawe of God and yet was there neuer any man so brainsicke as to defend that Princes for euerie neglect and offence against the Law should be deposed Phi. Heresie is one of the greatest breaches of Gods Law Theo. To hold the truth of God in manifest and knowen vnrighteousnes without repentance is a greater impietie than ignorantly to be deceiued in some points of religion but we stand not on the degrees of sinnes which God will reuenge from the greatest to the smallest as much as on the person which may do it and the warrant whereby it must be done We deny that Princes haue any superiour and ordinarie Iudge to heare and determine the right of their Crownes Wee deny that God hath licenced any man to depose them and pronounce them no Princes The sonne cannot desherit his father nor the seruant countermaund his master by the lawes of God and nature be the father and master neuer so wicked Princes haue farre greater honour and power ouer subiects than any man can haue ouer sonnes and seruantes They haue power ouer goods lands bodies and liues which no priuat man may chalenge They be fathers of our Countries to the which we be nearer bound by the very confession of Ethnikes than to the fathers of our flesh Howe then by Gods law should subiects depose their Princes to whom in most euident woords they must bee subiect for conscience sake though they bee tyrauntes and Infidels And if the subiects them-selues haue no such power what haue strangers to meddle or make with their Crownes Phi. Doe you count the Pope a straunger to Christian Princes Theo. Would God he were not woorse euen a mortall and cruell enimie to al that bee Godlie He was a subiect vnder them eight hundreth yeares and vpwarde he after by sedition and vsurpation grewe to bee a sâ—ate amongest them a Superiour ouer them in causes concerning their Crownes and states you shall neuer prooue him to bee For a thousand yeares he durst offer no such thing these last fiue hundreth hee often assayed it and was as often repelled from it by factions conspiracies excommunications and rebellions hee molested and grieued some of them as I haue shewed but from the ascention of our Lorde and Sauiour to this present day neuer Prince Christian did yeeld and acknowledge any such power in the Pope and those that seemed in their neighbours harmes somewhat to regard his doings for an aduauntage when the case concerned them-selues most boldlie reiected his iudgements Phi. By the fall of the King from the faith the danger is so euident and ineuitable that GOD had not sufficientlie prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church and holie Lawes if there were no way to depriue or restraine Apostata Princes Theo. You make vs many worthy reasons for the depriuation of Princes but of all others this is the cheifest If there were no way to depriue Princes God hath not say you sufficiently prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church Euen so one of your owne fellowes saide before you of the verie same poinâ—e Non viderâ—tur Dominus discretus fuisse vt cum reuerentia â—ius loquar c. The Lorde by his leaue should haue seemed scant discreete except hee had left one such Vicar behind him as might doe all things to witte depose Emperours and all other Princes Unlesse your rebellious humours may take place you stick not to charge the sonne of God with lack of discretion negligence but looke better about you ye blasphemous mouths you shall see that the Church of God is purest when
followeth after sheweth in what sense he tooke the word supreme At this day sayth he where Poperie continueth howe many are there which lode the king with all the right and power they can that there should be no disputing of religion but this authoritie should rest in the king alone to appoint at his pleasure what hee list and that to stande good without contradiction They that first so highly aduanced king Henry of England were inconsiderate they gaue him supreme power of all thinges and that was it which alway wounded me Then succeede your wordes and withall a particular exemplication howe Steuen Gardiner alleaged and constred the Kings stile in Germanie That Iuggler which after was Chauncelour I meane the Bishop of Winchester when hee was at Rentzburge neither would stande to reason the matter nor greatly cared for any testimonies of the scriptures but said it was at the kinges discretion to abrogate that which was in vse appoint new He said the king might forbid priests mariage the king might barre the people from the cup in the Lordes supper the king might determine this or that in his kingdome And why Forsooth the king had supreme power This sacrilege hath taken hold on vs in Germanie whiles Princes think they cannot raign except they abolish al the authoritie of the church be thēselues supreme Iudges as wel in doctrin as in al spirituall regiment This was the sense which Caluin affirmed to bee sacrilegious and blasphemous for Princes to professe them-selues supreme Iudges of Doctrine and discipline and in deede it is the blasphemie which all godly heartes reiect and abomine in the Bishoppe of Rome Neither did King Henry take any such thing on him for ought that wee can learne But this was Gardiners Stratageme to conuey the reproche and shame of the sixe articles from himselfe and his fellowes that were the authors of them and to cast it on the kings supreme power Had Caluin been told that supreme was first receiued to declare the Prince to be superior to the Prelats which exempted themselues from the Kings authoritie by their Church liberties and immunities as well as to the Lay men of this realme and not to bee subiect to the Pope who claymed a iurisdiction ouer all Princes and Countries the woorde woulde neuer haue offended him but as this wylye foxe framed his answere when the Germanes communed with him about the matter wee blame not Caluin for mistaking but the Bishop of Winchester for peruerting the kings stile wresting it to that sense which all good men abhorre Phi. Do not you at this day make the Queene supreme Gouernour of al ecclesiasticall doctrine and discipline And what discrepance I pray you between Iudge and Gouernour Theo. You may be Steuen Gardiners scholer you bee so wel trained in his methode and maximes Wee told you long since and often enough if that will serue the prince by her stile doth not chalenge neither do we by our othe giue her highnes power to debate decide or determine any point of fayth or matter of religion much lesse to bee supreme iudge or gouernour of all doctrine and discipline But if in her realme you will haue the assistance of the magistrates swoord to settle the trueth and prohibite error and by wholesome punishments to preuent the disorders of all degrees that authoritie lieth neither in Prelate nor Pope but onely in the Prince and therefore in her Dominions you can neither establish doctrine nor discipline by publike Lawes without her consent This neither Caluin nor the compilers of the Centuries nor any other of sound religion euer did or iustly can mislike onely Iesuites their adherents would faine reserue this power to the Pope in al Christian realmes because they be sure he will allowe and suffer no religion but his owne and so long their profession shall not miscarie Phi. The Centurists say Princes may not bee heads of the Church that primacie is not fit for them Theo. That word if they mislike wee stand not for it The holy Ghost hath inuested the sonne of God with it and therefore reason princes euen for reuerence to him should forbeare the stile which hee first vsed most esteemeth And though some defence might be brought for the word as that which Samuel said to Saul When thou wast litle in thine own sight wast thou not made HEAD of the tribes of Israel For the Lorde annoynted thee king ouer Israel and that which Dauid sayth of himself Thou hast made me HEAD of the heathen and that which Esai saith of the king of Syria THE HEAD of Aram is Damascus and the HEAD of Damascus is Rezni and again the honorable mā he is the HEAD as also S. Paul the man is the womans HEAD Chrysostom not sticking to call certaine women that laboured in the Gospel HEAD OF THE CHVRCH at Philippi and saying of Theodosius the Emperor Summitas caput omnium super terram hominum SVPREME AND HEAD of all mortall men Though these and many like places might bee brought to auouche the worde HEAD yet because that title HEAD OF THE CHVRCH rightly and properly belongeth onely to Christ not to Princes without many mitigations and cautions and head as it is applied to Princes is al one with Supreme for it importeth but the chiefest or highest person of the Church on earth and with the regiment of the Church whereof Christ is head I meane his mysticall bodie Princes haue nothing to doe yea many times they be scant members of it and the Church in each countrie may stand without Princes as in persecution it doth and yet they not headlesse we thinke not good to contend with our brethren for wordes and to greeue their eares with titles first abused by the pope and first reproued in him so long as in matter and meaning there is no discord betwixt vs. Phi. Will you make vs beleeue they mislike nothing but the wordes head of the Church Theo. Yeas they mislike that Princes should mingle trueth with falsehood and temper religion with corruption as their priuate fancies lead them which we mislike no lesse than they This is the scope of our speach say they that it is not lawful for ciuill Magistrates to deuise formes of religion in destruction of the truth and so to reconcile truth and error that they may both be lulled asleepe They may not prescribe religions alone they must not ingender new articles of the faith they must not strangle the trueth with errors and shackle it when it is reueiled that they may let loose the bridle to corruption These be the points which they dislike and we be as farre from approuing any such thing in Princes as you or they Phi. If the Prince establish any religion whatsoeuer it be you must by your oth obey it Theo. We must not rebel and take armes against the prince
dipped his hands in his brothers bloode nor take the wages of Balaam to curse and reuile the people of God nor perish in the contradiction of Corah for resisting both God and the Magistrate but rather that wee may be sanctified and saued by the might of his word and store of his mercy laid vp in Christ his sonne for all that beleeue him and call vpon him Phi. God send vs such part as our fathers had Theo. You be so displeased with God for punishing the sinnes of your fathers with blindnes and error in these later ages that now you will none of his light nor grace though he offer it freely to saue your soules but if you will needes perish your owne bloode be on your owne heades yet haue vs excused if we thinke our sinnes heauie enough though wee adde not thereto the neglect of his worde and contempt of his trueth as you doe In the knowledge of God and reuerence of his iudgements there is a path way to repentaunce and hope of mercy in the proude dislike of his seueritie towards others and sâ—ubberne refusall of his goodnes towards our selues there is nothing but an heaping of extreme vengeaunce which shall consume the wicked and impenitent resisters of his word and spirit Phi. We be not of that number Theo. Were you not you would be more carefull to search and willing to embrace the trueth of Christ once vnderstoode with all readines and lowlines of minde knowing that God resisteth the proud and giueth grace to the humble and not with an high-looking and self-pleasing perswasion that all is yours neglect your duty to God and man Phi. We obserue both Theo. You obserue neither Subiection to your lawfull Prince you haue forsaken and not onely fledde the Realme and incited others to doe the like but the Christian alleageance which the Prince requireth of her subiects you impugne with shifts and slaunders in fauoâ—r of him who wickedly and iniuriously taketh vpon him to be the supreme Moderator of earthly kingdomes chiefe disposer of princes Crowns and so fast are you lincked in confederacie with him that in open view of all men you will allow no Prince to beare the sword longer than shall like him but proclaime rebellions of subiects against their Soueraignes to be iust honorable warres if he authorize them by his Censures And where to cloake your wicked and enormous attempts you boldely surmised that you did whatsoeuer you did for that Religion which was ancient Catholike we haue presently taken you so tardie short of your reckoning that for sixe of the greatest and cheefest points now in question betwixt the Church of England and the Church of Rome and reformed in this Realme by publike authoritie you cannot bring vs so much as one ancient euident testimony that your faith and Doctrine was euer taught or receiued in the primatiue church of christ and yet you please your selues in your owm conceits and compasse the earth to get prosilites fit for such teachers whom you may traine vp in error and vse as instruments to catch vnstable soules and fier vnquiet heades that you by them may disturbe realmes and fishe for Princes thrones and liues in troubled waters Phi. All this is as false as God is true Theo. God himselfe shall skant be trueth if you may be the iudges except hee take your parts But facing and craking laid aside you must referre the iudgement of your doings and sayings to others and not to your selues Phi. To Catholikes I am content The. They must be then of your instructing that is such as will trust neither fathers nor Scriptures against your Canons otherwise in that you haue saide they shall find no great cause to like your impugning the Princes power right to establish Lawes within her owne lande without the Popes leaue and to hold her Crowne against his censures and as litle shall they find to cal you or count you Catholikes Phi. Men of your own pitch will soone assent to any thing Theo. Let them be but indifferent and weigh what you haue brought Phi. More we can bring when we see our times The It skilleth not how much but how sound that is which you can bring Phi. Of that hereafter and yet in the meane time there be many other thinges besides these that you haue handled that must be discussed before we can be pronounced no Catholikes And as in these you seeeme with wresting and wrenching to haue some aduantage so in those we could forthwith confound you The. Euen as you haue doone in these Phi. A great deale more readily if I had time to stay the triall of them but this holy tide I must spend in other matters of more importance Theo. What In spredding newes that the king of Spain doth stay but for the next summer Phi. We meddle not with forraine affaires Theo. A number of you be better seene in policie than in diuinitie you were borne belike to be rulers though it be but of Rebels as Sanders was that thought it a praise to take the field in person against his Prince Phi. My trauell is not to that end Theo. You leaue that for others and trauel to sound the harts of your adherents whether they be in number welth and zeale likely and readie to giue assistance if any should inuade Phi. What vnchristian coniectures you haue of vs Theo. None but such as your owne deedes and wordes occasion Phi What cause haue we giuen you to speake this of vs Theo. What greater cause can you giue than openly to auouch as you haue done in your Defence of Catholiks as you call them yâ— rebellions against such Princes as the Pope deposeth are godly iust honourable wars Phi. If hee may depose them they are Theo. You haue in print affirmed both and sought to proue them with all your might and therefore what shal we thinke your secret whispering and reconâ—ling to the Church of Rome is but a craftie bayte of Malcontentes to make rebels Phi. The parties themselues can witnesse we neuer mention any such thing in our absolution To them we appeale for record Theo. For my part I thinke you doe not It were too grosse conspiracie treason to take vowes and oths of subiects against their Prince by name and therefore if you should take that open course you were worthie to ride to Tyburne not only for traytors but also for disards But when you reconcile them you take assurance of them by vow oth or other adiuration that they shall embrace the Catholike faith and hold Communion vnitie with the Church of Rome for euer after Phi. Why should we not Theo. Then when it pleaseth my Lord the Pope to depriue the Prince and to excommunicate al that assist or agnise her for a lawfull magistrate what must your reconciled sort doe Is it not against their oth faith giuen to you at their restitution to
a Prince you shall neuer shewe Omitte Abimelech whom Saul slewe for fauouring Dauid and Zachariah whom king Ioash commaunded to bee stoned not remembring the kindnes of Ioida his father that saued him aliue and set him in his kingdome Did not Salomon cast out Abiathar from being high Priest because hee tooke part with Adoniah his elder brother Where by your conclusion Salomon shoulde haue beene deposed because the high Priest thought Adoniahs right to the Crowne to bee better than Salomons Wee shewe you where the Prince remoued the Priest from his honour and primacie but you can not shewe vs that euer Priest remooued Prince in that Common wealth from his royal dignitie and yet was there then as vrgent and as euident cause to do it as you can nowe or doe pretend For all the kings of Israel were open Idolaters Iehu himselfe not excepted and yet not one of them deposed by Priest or Prophet so long as their kingdome stoode which was 253. yeeres The greater part of the kinges of Iudah euen foureteene of them were likewise plaine Idolaters as Salomon Roboam Abiam Ioram Ahaziah Ioash Amazias Ahaz Manasses Amon Ioachaz Eliakim Ioacim Zedechias and not a Priest or Prophete in Iudah so much as offered to displace or resist one of them If by Gods Lawe as you suppose the Priestes were superiour Iudges to punish such offences euen in princes howe can you excuse the high Priest and the rest to whom that charge was committed for not executing that power which God gaue them vpon these wicked and Idolatrous Princes Phi. The kinges were too mightie for them to remoue Theo. That happilie might hinder the effect but not the attempt of their iudgement We doe not obiect that they were vnable but that they neuer made the onset or offer to doe it Phi. The crueltie of those kinges caused them to forbeare Theo. That is not true Many Priests and Prophetes gaue their liues for reproouing them and more it coulde not cost to depose them Againe Manasses was caried captiue out of his Realme in the midst of his furious Idolatrie and yet in his absence and miserie no man stirred against him but his kingdome was reserued for him till hee was released out of prison and sent backe from Babylon It was therefore not for feare of death but for regard of duetie that the zealous Priests and Prophetes submitted their persons to those wicked Princes whose Idolatrie they reproued with the losse of their liues Phi. This coâ—dition was afterwarde to bee imâ—lied in the receiuing of any king ouer the people of God and true beleeuers for euer videlicet that they should not reduce their people by force or otherwise from the faith of their forefathers and the religion and holy ceremonies thereof receiued at the hands of Gods Priests and none other Insinuating that obseâ—uing these precepts and conditions hee and his sonne after him might long reigne Otherwise as by the practise of their deposition in the bookes and tyme of the kinges it afterward â—ppeareth whereof we haue set downe some examples before the Prophets and Pristes that annointed them of no other condition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Theo. God would haue the more care to be taken in choosing a king because it was too late to refuse him when he was once chosen But I trust your selfe will not say that all those conditions which God requireth in a king are forfeitures of his Crowne if he transgresse in any of them GOD in expresse woordes and in the very same place chargeth that the king shall not haue many wiues nor many horses nor abundaunce of golde nor siluer nor lift his heart vp aboue his brethren and thinke you that if a king did offend in any of these he was to bee deposed The precept which your selfe alleage doth not onely concerne the publike sufferance of true religion but the perfect obseruance of euery point that was contained in the lawe of God Hee shall read in the booke of the Lawe all the dayes of his life that hee may learne to feare the Lorde his God and to obserue all the woordes of this Lawe and these statutes to doe them And trowe you the breach of any point of Gods Lawe was depriuation to the king You must bee voyde of all sense if you defend these thinges and yet these bee conditions or as you delight to call them couenants which God exacteth in him that shall bee king ouer his elect and peculiar people The knitting vppe of your matter is like the rest of your discourse The Prophetes and Priestes you say that annointed them of no other coâ—dition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his true worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like It is vtterly vntrue that euer Priest or Prophete deposed Prince in the common wealthes of Israel or Iudah There were as the Scripture testifieth of the kinges of Israel nineteene and fourteene of the kinges of Iuda that brake with their Lorde and sell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Shewe that one of them was depriued by any Priest or Prophete and take the whole if you can not leaue false supposing and vaine craking and tell on your tale Phi. And this it was in the old law But now in the new Testament and in the time of Christs spirituall kingdome in the Church Priests haue much more soueraigne authoritie and Princes farre more strict charge to obay loue and cherish the Church Theo. What was in the olde Lawe you haue sayd and wee haue seene and except I bee deceiued you found there very litle for your purpose In the newe Testament I can assure you you will find lesse Where you say that Priests now in the Church haue much more soueraigne authoritie than Priests had in the law of Moses the comparing of their authorities is very superfluous Haue they more or lesse it is nothing to this question Authoritie to depose Princes they neither then had nor nowe haue which is it that you seeke for In what sort Princes are bound to loue cherish and obey the Church was declared before and neede not nowe bee repeated But the Church is neither charged nor licenced by Christ to take Princes Crownes from them Subiection is rather enioyned her in earthly thinges vnto Princes which can not stand with your thrusting them from their thrones vnlesse you take rebellion to be subiection which were very strange And depriuing them of their right is worse than rebelling against theÌ„ to defend your right which yet is not tolerable For he that resisteth them shall receiue iudgement Phi. In the Church without fayle is the supereminent power of Christes