particularly in what points we have divided from all Churches Indeed it is the safest way not to come to particulars for fear of discovery In generalibus latet totâ—s But let us come up closely to him Either the Fathers of the Primitive Church are on my Adversary's side in the points of difference or our's or have not expressed themselves sufficiently on either part but the Fathers of the Primitive times are not on my Adversary's side For there was none of those points which we have named held by them and my Adversary did know that some of ours have confronted Campion's challenge about the Fathers with another challenge to the Romanists to shew so much as one Father one Doctor in the Primitive times that hath expressed himself for them in the points of difference Then if they have expressed themselves and if not we have not opposed them they are on our side because we are upon contradictions Thus we see what is become of his unanswerable Argument We see that we can differ from them without opposition to the Catholick Church better than they can differ from us without opposition to the Catholick Church because we in our difference from them have kept the Catholick faith which they have warped from And so that which is left behind in the number will never come up to fight us to any purpose For as for the Reformers opposing the Church because they censured that which was proposed by the Papists as opposite to the word of God we take our Reformation from Scripture and also we say it is not necessary in points of difference to conclude that what is by them urged is opposite to the word of God For it is enough to us to differ upon the negative to the word of God since our principle is that the Scripture is a sufficient rule of faith and practise And therefore though a point proposed doth not oppose Scripture as not being contradictory yet we reject it from being any Article of faith because it is not contained in Scripture And thus the negative authority of Scripture doth sufficiently conclude against any other article of faith than what is in it And as for our not naming in this whole age one age in this last thousand years wherein Christ had a truly Catholick Church agreeing with you in those many and most important points wherein your Reformers taxed us to have opposed the Scriptures This in effect hath been answered before and hath not any thing materially new But first this is always an unreasonable demand which goes upon a certain presumption of the Romanist that the true Church must be alwaies conspicuously visible which is to be denied and therefore it doth not follow that because we cannot name any Church agreeing with us therefore there was none Secondly if he means by a truly Catholick Church one particular Church of the Catholick those whom we have named did not agree with them in the most important points of difference as not in point of Discipline nay they have differed from them and therefore have agreed with us in the questions betwixt us And besides if they meane a truely Catholick Church in this sense as a part of the whole then a particular Church it seems may be a Catholick and a truely Catholick Church and therefore have they no reason to vaunt of the title of Catholick given by the Antients to the Church or Bishop of Rome because other Churches may also be Catholick and why then should the Pope usurp the title of universall Bishop over a particular Church And if he means by a truely Catholick Church the Catholick Church properly then he doth imply a contradiction that the Catholick Church which includes all ages should be limited to a thousand yeares But thirdly he did wisely stint the question for this thousand yeares since he could not well go further for the six hundred years before do shew no disagreement to us in the most important points of difference And let them assure themselves that our agreement with the six hundred of the Primitive Church is more available for our defence than the supposed disagreement with the thousand years after is available to the accusation Fourthly suppose no one Church could be named corresponding with us in most important points for this thousand yeares yet even in every age of the thousand yeares there might be and some have named severall persons which have held the materiall points of difference betwixt us and severall of the Roman Communion have bore testimony to the truth yea even in the Trent Council in so much that they have been complained of for bending to Protestâ—ntisme as may be seen through the History of that Council Fifthly what Tyranny is this to stifle and smother by their domination all other Churches as much as they could which were not of their faith and then challenge us to shew what Church agreed with us Sixthly Omne reducitur ad principium as Aquinas's rule is then we are to take a true Church from trial of Scripture and we put it to this issue All Catholick Churches agree with Scripture in the most important points of difference we agree with Scripture or Scripture with us in these points therefore we agree with all Catholick Churches in these points because we agree in tertio Therefore if the Romanists differ let them look to it We differ from none but them in those points and that we differ from them is their fault and our security If they had not left the Catholick to be a singular Plenipotentiarie we had not left Communion with them as a part of the whole or rather they had not left our Communion Delictum ambulat cum Capite And as for that he says And as for externall division you cannot name the Church upon earth from which you did not divide your selves at your Reformation We return it with the necessary changes nor can they at their Deformation name the Church upon earth from which they did not divide themselves And I challenge them to tell me if they can to what Church on earth then visible they did joine themselves or who acknowledged to be of their Communion But first as for external Communion we say moreover first we divided not first Communion but the Pope when in the time of Queen Elizabeth he sent a Bill to prohibit his Subjects Communion with us 2. We divided not from their Church simply but so as corrupted and engaging us upon communion with them to error and bad practise We left the house as infected with a mind of returning when it shall be clear and safe for us Thirdly as before we divided not from the Primitive times in point of Doctrine or Discipline now then suppose there was not at the Reformation any other Church unto which we might joine which is more agreable to the duty and honor of a Church to joine with a corrupt Church in Doctrine and practise or to leave their communion externall
understand and think to be according to Truth unless he shall shew them to be holy out of that which is contained in the Divine Scriptures as in the certain Temples of God what can be more to our purpose Then the Scripture is the Ground of Doctrines then of Faith As for Athanasius we need not his words knowing his practice of holding the equality of the Divine Nature in the second Person the Son of God against all the World Yet he speaks as he did if you will look upon him about the Incarnation of the Word at the latter end But then having taken occasion by these if thou wilt read the Divine Books and wilt apply thy minde to them shalt learn out of them more plainly and more perfectly the truth of what we have said So he Now where the Truth is learned more plainly and perfectly there is the ground of Truth In the Divine writings is the truth of those things more plainly and more perfectly learned After the same manner doth Tertullian bring in his suffrage in his Book of Praescriptions a little after the beginning of it thus Do we prove the Faith by the Persons or prove the Persons by the Faith And again Faith consists in the rule You have the Law and Salvation by the observation of it And soon after To know nothing against the rule is to know all things And again That which we are the Scriptures were from the beginning we are of them before it was otherwise before they were corrupted by you So he besides other passages wherein he witnesseth for us Saint Ambrose giveth us also his voice in his first Book to Gratian chap. 4. in the beginning thus But I will not that you believe an Argument O holy Emperour and our disputation let us ask the Scripture let us ask the Apostles let us ask the Prophets Then we are to be determined in our Belief by the Scriptures Saint Cyprian also who for order of time should have been put before gives his verdict for us in the beginning of his sixth Sermon concerning the Lords Prayer thus The Evangelical Precepts most beloved Brethren are nothing else but the Divine Magisteries the foundations of building our Hope the firmaments of corroborating our Faith the nutriments of chearing our heart the Gubernacles of directing our journey the safegards of obtaining Salvation which while they do instruct the Docile mindes of Believers upon Earth bring them to the Kingdome of Heaven So the Father Where you see the Scriptures are asserted immediately to be the Ground and Firmanent of Faith Yea neither doth Saint Austin seem to speak onely for your cause In the seventh Tome in the third Chapter of the Unity of the Church against the Epistle of Petilianus in the beginning he hath these words But as I began to say let us not hear these things I say these things thou sayest but let us hear these things the Lord saith There are certainly the Books of the Lord whose authority we both consent unto we both believe we both are obedient to there let us seek our Church there let us discusse our cause And soon after Let those things be taken out of your way which against one another we recite not out of the Divine Canonical books but otherwise And soon after Some may ask why I would have these things taken out of the way since if they brought forth your Communion is invincible he answers because I would not have the Church demonstrated by Humane Documents but by Divine Oracles and so to the end of the Chapter which he concludes thus therefore let us seek it the Church in the Holy Canonical Scriptures I have now made good my words to give you Catholick Testimonies on our side Amongst which Saint Austins authority gives advantage to plant Arguments upon thus If in businesses of dispute we must hear what the Lord saith not what man saith then the Scripture is the ground not humane authority But let us not hear what I say or thou saist saith the Father but what the Lord saith Again Where we must seek the Church there we must resolve our Faith But we must seek the Church in the Scriptures as the Father saith If the Church is to be proved by the Scriptures then the Scriptures are the ground of Faith because they are the ground of the Church there is no resolution of Faith but in that which is indemonstrable therefore not in the Church because that is demonstrated by the Scriptures as he saith Again Divine Oracles are the ground of Faith the Scriptures are the Divine Oracles as he saith as the Scripture saith as Saint Ignatius saith in his Epistle to the Church of Sâ—â—yrna Indeed the proper object of Faith Catholick is the Word of God not the Word of Man And proportionable the cause of this Faith must be divine authority not any authority of Man As demonstrative reason makes Science so humane authority make Opinion but Faith is an assent to that which is spoken by God as true because he speaketh it therefore the authority of the Church is not a mean apt to beget Faith because it is of another kinde and cannot exceed the nature of humane authority although it be the highest in the kinde if it be represented in a lawful General Council Yet even General Councils have erred and therefore they cannot he the Ground of Faith This is the prerogative of the Canonical books as the Father and all Antiquity calleth them but never did we hear of a Canonical Church The Scripture is the Canon is the rule not the Church The Church witnesseth Truth The Church keepeth Truth The Church defendeth Truth The Church Representative in a Council determineth Controversies authoritatively not infallibly and therefore bindes not unto Faith but to Peace not to Faith in the Conscience but to Peace in the Church not affirmatively that we should say it is true because they say it but negatively that we should not rashly oppose it as false because they define it as true Hitherto we go for the honour of the Church Catholick not Roman And now I have given you some reason of our Faith It followes now in your Reply or indeed how can I account him a Catholick without a palpable contradiction that doth not believe the Catholick Curch Answ I say so too But what from thence To professe a belief that there is a Catholique Church whereof part is triumphant in Heaven part on Earth expectant and to professe my self to belong to the Catholique Church is not inclusive of your sense that the Catholique Church is the ground of our belief We believe the Catholique Church grounded in the Scripture or built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Jesus Christ himself being the chief Corner Stone as Saint Paul speaks Ephes 2.20 Secondly This is not to your purpose because the Catholique Church as it is an object of Belief must be considered as invisible whereas you intend the
Ut sic quatenus errer it is false All simple errour is not damnative to the person And therefore Christ may be with some who live in some errour indeed otherwise with whom is he For who is there that lives not in some errour though he knows it not If you mean then damnable errour distinctively I grant you all and yet you have nothing thereby for your cause For this doth not prove infallibility to your Church Security from damnable errour distinctively taken doth not infer absolute infallibility The former is promised as also in that of Saint John 14.16 which you would reinforce here but absolute infallibility is not intended And this you must have or else you are utterly lost For if the Church be not infallible in all that is proposed by it how shall I be assured of any particular thing which it proposeth If I be not assured of this particular how am I bound to believe it If I be not bound to beleeve it upon its proposal how is it the ground of Faith Divine If it be not the ground of Faith Divine then you are gone And besides those promises in Saint Matthew and Saint John you may know were made as to the Apostles equally and therefore to their successours equally and to the Church universal equally by consequent and therefore cannot you appropriate it to your Bishop and to your Church Saint Austins authority in a passage of his wherein you say he speaks admirably in this De utilitate credendi cap 6. you had better have omitted It strengthens your cause nothing if you quote it as you should First it is misquoted for the chapter for it is not in the 6. chapter but in the 16. Secondly you may see in the beginning of the chapter that the scope of it is to shew how authority may first move to Faith And Thirdly this scope may discover your corrupting of his Text for it is not as you give it a certain step but contrary an uncertain step velut gradu incerto innitentes as in the Froben Edition â—N M. D. lxix Whereby you may perceive how little reason we have to credit your infallibility And then Fourthly part of his authority in that chapter is by miracles of Christ which he did himself on earth The summe of your fourth Number is this to perswade not onely that the Churches authority is infallible if it judge conformably to Scripture for so even the Devil himself is infallible so long as he teacheth conformably to Scriptures but that the Church shall at no time teach any thing that in any damnable errour shall be against Scripture So that when we know this is her Doctrine we are sure that this is conformable to the Scriptures rightly understood And this you would prove by two Testimonies of Scripture We answer distinctly and First to that you say about the Devil First we are not commanded but forbidden to consult with the Devil but we are injoyned to consult with the Church of God Secondly we have cause alwayes to suspect the Devil because either he doth not give us all the Scripture unto a particular or doth pervert it or doth speak the truth with an intention of deceiving the more but we have more charity towards the Church we have none towards the Devill Thirdly Yet though we do not believe the Devil in point of truth upon his authority neverthelesse can we not believe the Church in whatsoever it sayes to be true upon its authority neither doth it follow that the Devil should hereupon be the pillar and ground of Truth when he said that which is conformable to Scripture as well as the Church because the Church doth hold and uphold Truth so doth not the Devil but when he useth it he doth it to destroy it and again we are moved to think that which is proposed by the Church to be true so are we not moved by the Devil to conceive it to be true upon his saying so And therefore if I do believe that which the Devil saith conformable to Scripture to be true and do not beleeve that every thing which is said by the Church to be conformable to Scripture I do not make the same account of what is said by one and by the other For that which is true I doe beleeve because it is seâ— though the Devil saith it I do beleeve it in respect to the matter without any respect to the Author and that which is not true according to Scripture I cannot beleeve though the Church saith it yet am I moved by the authority of the Church to consider the point more because it is proposed by them and what is by them proposed according to Scripture I am moved to beleeve of with respect of the Authour of the proposal but cannot be resolved in my Faith of but by the authority of Scripture And therefore I cannot beleeve that whatsoever is said by the Church is agreable to Scripture because the Church faith it for this proposition for ought as yet proved is not agreable to Scripture rightly understood And if you say that your Church must judge the sense let it first judge whether it doth not beg the principle Neither have your Texts alledged any thing for you Not that of Daniel the 2. chapter the 44. verse It respects indeed the Kingdome of Christ in general and therefore is not proper to any Church of his signaâ—ter for any thing can be shewed by the Text. Secondly The Kingdome of Christ principally respects the Church invisible which as such is not our guide Thirdly it may certainly come to its everlasting reign in Heaven notwithstanding some errour on earth by the Church visible Fourthly whereas you say it shall destroy all Idolatrous kingdomes you doe very well add in your Parenthesis Idolatrous Kingdomes to save your selves from suspition But it all Idolatrous Kingdomes then have you reason to make your infallibilitie more strongly infallible otherwise you will be included in this distraction So also that of Esay 59.21 profits you nothing some of the former answers may serve it principally is intended for the Church invisible which by the Church visible may sufficiently be directed through the means of grace to salvation infallibly without infallibility of the Church As the Word of God was certain before it was written and the Church then was by it directed because it was then in substance of it though not written as we have said before but you compell us to repeat so by the Word written infallibly though not infallibly expounded and applied by the Pastours of the Church shall the Church be brought to Life For if every evil action doth not destroy the state of salvation as you will confesse then surely every simple errour cannot because it is not voluntary And this is fully able to answer your Appendix to this Number at the end of your paper Those Testimonies if they be rightly cited yet in those terms affirm no more then
if one be sufficient why the other if both be necessarie then either is not sufficient So then if the Scripture be the most sufficient ground of Faith when it be known to be the Word of God and the sense of it then I have contradicted you and you have contradicted your self For I say as you say that it is most true that the Scripture is the most sufficient ground of Faith And two sufficients there are not in the same kind Yes you say but first the Scripture must be known by infallible authoritie to be the Word of God Well but we both beleeve that the Scripture is the Word of God and by infallible authoritie we do beleive the Scripture to be the Word of God because we do believe it by the authoritie of it self which you say is infallible And if you believe it by infallible authoritie of the Church as you think you must go to Scripture for this authoritie then is not the Church a sufficient ground because it needs the Scripture to prove the Church and confirm its authoritie And therefore my concluding was contradictorie since your supposition of two sufficient grounds is false Well and how shall we know evidentlie whether this is the sense of Scripture By the authoritie of the Church you say And why then do they not by their authoritie evidentlie deliver unto us the sense of Scripture in everie difficultie If it cannot it is insufficient if it will not it is uncharitable and besides you fall into the same danger again For where hath it this authoritie by the Scripture then the Scripture is the sufficient ground again and this not And when the Church in a Council doth decide a controversie best it doth so by principles of Scripture applying them to particular cases and the determinations of the Church have themselves to the Scripture but as conclusions and the Scripture hath it self to those conclusions as the principle And therefore properlie the principles are believed and the conclusions are credible not by themselves but by participation from the Principles So that as the prime Principles are the ground of all Science so are the Principles of Scripture the ground of all Faith And the first Principle in Theologie must be this that the Scripture is the Word of God and so the ground of Faith And if the Church be not subordinate it is opposite to Scripture as the first Principle and so stands by it self and must fall to the ground And if you say it is not necessarie to umpire all doubts then you say as we say and why then an infallible Judge And forasmuch as we doe believe the Scripture to be the Word of God why do you contend because we do not believe it as you believe it but if you intend your Treatise in charitie you might have spared your labour For we are in a surer condition then you can be upon your Principles You believe the Scripture by the authoritie of the Church and we believe it by that by which the Church hath its authoritie So that the Scripture is not onely the first ground in regard of Order but also of Causalitie because the Church hath no ground but by Scripture Therefore we like your intention better then your judgement Neither do we denie the moment of the authoritie of the Catholick Church towards Faith so that we have all the authoritie of Heaven and Earth for our belief And if there were a doubt and in us a possibilitie of errour by apprehension that we cannot be assured of the Scripture to be the Word of God by the Church yet our errour would not be so dangerous because we should erre in honour of Scripture as yours is or would be who erre in honour of the Church Also must I observe your ingenuitie again here that you do profess it as most true that the Scripture is the most sufficient ground of Faith when we know by infallible authoritie that it is the Word of God and that such and such is the sense thereof If there be degrees of Truth and sufficiencie then are we more secure if degrees of Truth and sufficiencie to us then are we yet more right And also this doth deduct from your universalitie of faith in your first paper by the proposal of the Church in all things For my second third and fourth and fifth answer the Paragraphs of your Discourse or Treatise have in them nothing whith hath any potential contrarietie to them which I have not fully as I think taken away In your Application you make to or against my sixth answer you seem to take another argument to perswade me that the Scripture and the Church may both be grounds of Faith It is by way of interrogation Can I not say you ground my Faith upon what Saint Peter saith because I can ground it upon that which Saint Paul saith We answer your question is out of question but your consequence from thence is unsolid and unjudicious because they were both inspired in their Doctrine but it is yet again in question whether the Church be infalliblie inspired and we can be infalliblie assured thereof the reason being not the same your reasoning sinks Yet you insist further Why is the Scripture the rule of Faith Because it delivereth to me Gods written VVord but the Church delivereth to me Gods VVord written and unwritten I may therefore rule my self by that So you I answer This argument hath no strength to weaken that which I laid down before that there are not two sufficicient grounds of Faith because the Church is but a Ministerial rule and subordinate to Scripture and so subordinately a rule as to that VVord of God which is written and therefore can it not ground or order my Faith by its own Vertue but onely by proportion to Scripture and so is not a rule equal to Scripture intensively And if you conceive your argument should have any force because the Church doth exceed the Scripture extensively in that it delivereth the VVord written and unwritten Surely you are much mistaken by your supposition that there is a VVord of God not written in points of Faith equally credible to that which is written It is to be proved not supposed Your reasoning rather hath force against your self The Church is not a rule infallible because it delivereth to us a VVord of God not written for herein it mainly erres The Scripture is not onely a necessarie rule but also sufficient most sufficient And therefore they bring in tradition by way of supplement you say it is a sufficient rule in that you say it is a sufficicient ground of Faith therefore must you expunge tradition This rule of Scripture you say is often so crookedly applied that we had need of better securitie of interpretation then our own judgement of discretion So you First this is accidental to the rule and therefore it doth not infringe its prerogative Secondly by this Argument if you drive it to
by those places of Scripture which places as they could not before the meeting of the Councils so they cannot after the meeting of the Council fully define determine and decide these controversies Now surely it is clear by these Acts of the first four Councils which Councils your English Church holds for lawful that the Fathers of these Councils never so much as doubted but that they had all plenitude of power and authority from God to define and finally to determine those controversies still arising And they had grievously wronged the world by Excommunicating all such as should gain-say what they had defined and determined if Errour and Falsity and Contradiction to Scripture could have been found in their Definitions and Determinations What you touch concerning the Bereans I answer fully chap. 3. Numb 14. 6. Whereas you adde fourthly That the decisions of the Church though unprovided of infallibilitie do yet oblige unto peace though their judgement cannot claim an undisputed assent yet the power they have from Christ doth require an undisturbance in the difference you teach by words what the deeds of your glorious Reformers have notoriously gainsaid Secondly seeing that a general Council as you in your first paper confess is the highest Court on Earth to hear and determine Controversies if her determinations may be erronious and these erronious determinations be to be accepted peaceably reverently and without disturbance in what a pittiful case should Gods whole Church be which having no higher Court from which relief might be hoped is bound to conform and subscribe to erroneous definitions and all preachers are silenced and obliged not to open their mouth against these errours Did it beseem the wisedome of Christ to appoint such a Government in his Church which should leave open so wide a gap to errors which being by command from the highest authoritie on earth preached by so many and not so much as contradicted by one must needs increase to a wonderful height Would any wise Law-makers proceed thus if they could help it as well as Christ could by continuing in his Church that infallibility which you will confesse it had those two thousand years before Scripture was written and which this Church of Christ had before all the whole Canon of the New Testament was finished which was for the first fourty years of the Church 7. Vain is your fear that we should become Hypocrites in differing by one outward Act from our inward act of belief for any wise man may inwardly perswade himself although I by my force of wit cannot see how such a point defined by a whole general Council should be true yet if I have wit I cannot but perswade my self even according to humane wisedome that so grave a judgement of a whole Council is far more likely to see the truth then my private judgement and therefore rather to be interiorly imbraced Again I may discourse thus All the places alleadgeable against the Definitions of Councils or of Scriptures be places clear or not clear if not clear then clearly I am imprudent and impudent to oppose in a point not clear my private judgement of discretion against the publick judgement of all Christendome far more likely in a point not clear to hit upon the truth then I am Now if these places alledgable against the Definitions of Councils be clear and evident it is an evident and clear folly in me to think that so wise an Assembly should have so universal a blindnesse as that none of them should be able to discover that which is clear and evident even in my short sight See chap. 4. Numb 51. Again I may and ought to know that the Holy Ghost hath promised an assistance to his Church sufficient to secure it from bringing in any error as I shall shew chapter 4 Numb 28.29 30 31 32 33 34 35. And this Principle will beat down to the ground all Opposition which an humble soul can make who will captivate her understanding in this case unto the obedience of faith as the Apostle speaketh 8. And when you ask me wherein you oppose general Councils I answer First that you oppose them even in that most fundamental ground upon which all Councils hitherto have still supposed themselves to set as Judges with full Commission to determine securely all controversies obliging all Christians to conform to their Definitions by such Censures as were still held to be ratified in Heaven Others will tell you divers other Oppositions you have with Councils and even in this place you tell all how little you credit Councils when you charge them with speaking contradictions But when you come to speak your mind more largely you do your uttermost endeavours to make the world think that they have not sufficient assurance that any Council was as yet a Lawful General Council I need no further proof of these your endeavours then all those manifold Objections which you put and I answer in my 4. chapter Numb 20.21 9. And when you ask again why you are charged as if you were opposite to the true Catholike Church I answer Christ had in all ages since his time a true Catholik Church and consequently he had such a Church upon earth when your Reformation as you call it began But at this your Reformation you did oppose in very many and very important points of doctrine not onely the Roman but all other Churches upon earth Therefore without doubt you opposed the truly Catholike Church in many and very important points And in plain English I tell you this argument which is in lawful form is unanswerable And when you say that when you differ without opposition you keep the peace of the Church without question I answer That your Reformers did apparently in many and most important points differ from all Churches Christ had then upon the Earth in opinion of publick Doctrine censuring such and such Points as they all held to be Erronious Superstitious opposite to the Word of God and in this opposition you continue still though in this whole age you have not been able to name one age in this last thousand years in which Christ had a truly Catholike Church upon Earth agreeing with you in those many and most important points in which your Reformers taxed us to have opposed the Scriptures And as for exterior division you cannot name the Church upon earth from which you did not divide your selves at your Reformation And I challenge you to tell me if you can to what Church on Earth then visible you did joyn your selves or who acknowledged you to be of their communion 10. To prove yet further that we are not bound to submit our judgements to the Church you use as you say my own argument That we are bound to submit our judgement onely to those who can judge of the inward act But Sir I never said any such thing for how know we whether the Scripture Writers or the Apostles themselves did know without
thirdly I can charge the Council of Trent with contradictions to it self and the Trent Council was a generall Council in the opinion of my Adversary therefore that grace is voluntarily received is their opinion and that yet we cannot know whether we are in state of grace includes a contradiction as if we did not know our own will what it does This absurdity was urged by Catharinus in the Trent Council Again not to speak of some of them who had voted the Edition vulgar to be authentick and yet did except against the interpretation of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for sin pardoned in the History of the Council p. 207 there is a contradiction noted by the German Divines in the sixth session the seventh ch Where it is said of justice which every one receives according to his measure quam Spiritus Sanctus partitur singulis prout vult et secundum propriam cujusque dispositionem et cooperationem Which the Holy Ghost doth impart as he will and according to every ones disposition and cooperation If according to his will then not according to our disposition for then it is not as he will And so in the thirteenth session in the first ch it is said of the manner of Christ's existence in the Sacrament quam etsi verbis exprimere vix possumus which although we can scarce expresse in words and yet in the fourth ch it is called of the Holy Catholick Church Transubstantiation convenienter et proprie appositly and properly And in the second Canon of the same session it saith of Transubstantiation quam quidem conversionem Catholica Ecclesia aptissime Transubstantiationem apellat which the Catholick Church cals most fitly Transubstantiation Was the Council of Trent infallibly assisted or assisted with infallibility in these contradictions and yet it may be these not all Num. 9. But number the ninth will make an end of our cause if a Rodomontado of my Adversary could do the deed Thus And when you ask again why you are charged as if you were opposed to the true Catholick Church I answer Christ had in all ages a true Catholick Church and consequently he had such a Church when your Reformation as you call it began But at this your Reformation you did oppose in very many and important points of Doctrine not onely the Roman but all other Churches upon earth Therefore without doubt you opposed the truly Catholick Church in very many and important points And in plain English I tell you this Argument which is in lawfull form is unanswerable Ans So then But is this Achilles Is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Alas if we come near him it is but bombast First we deny it in the lawfulnesse of the forme which he asserts for it is concluding in the second figure affirmatively and in this regard onely it is unanswerable for it is not to be answered for want of forme But yet secondly lest they should think it is unanswerable in the matter we answer to the major first by distinguishing if he takes the true Catholick Church as in the Apostles Creed he commits an equivocation for so it cannot be taken in the minor because we have in the minor the Roman Church and other Churches now the Roman is a visible Church he means and so he means the other Churches to be visible for we cannot properly oppose he will think any but visible Churches but in the Creed is meant the Church invisible which is the object of faith If he takes it for the true Catholick Church visible as always perspicuous and flourishing in visibility in all the parts of it it is denied that the Church Catholick is so visible and therefore we deny the major and need not say any thing to the minor and yet also we deny the minor because if it were not so visible we could not be said to oppose it And he cannot prove that we opposed all other Churches because they were not in his sense visible and therefore how can he say that we opposed all other Churches since if they were visible in the parts to some that were Neighbors yet not visible to the world generally Was the Church lesse the Church in the Primitive times when it wanted candles to be seen in the night or the seven thousand which Elijah did not know of lesse belonging to the Church of the Jews because they did not openly professe the true Religion How then can it be said rationally that we opposed all Churches for how could he or any one man under Heaven know all the Churches of the world then Yea thirdly in how many and important points did the Reformers oppose the Greek Church and the Waldenses who as the Author of the History of the Trent Council sayes had forsaken the Church of Rome then four hundred years before in his fifth book Yea fourthly the major proposition supposeth for all times and places doth it not for so the Catholick Church is properly taken as including all times and places and so we deny the minor we did not oppose all Churches of all times Dato non concesso that we did at the Reformation oppose not onely the Roman but all other Churches yet did we not oppose all Churches or the Roman of the Primitive times and therefore did we not oppose the Catholick Church Yea yet fifthly we distinguish dissent from opposition Although opposition includes a difference yet every difference doth not include an opposition for then St. Cyprian had opposed the Church in differing from it upon the point of Rebaptization And if it be said that the point of Rebaptization was not then defined by the Church we say that yet this consideration doth not make every difference to have in it the nature of opposition for then though St. Cyprian had not opposed the authority of a Church in a Council yet had he opposed the authoritie of the Church which then did bind him more than the Trent Council doth us And that St. Cyprian did so oppose the Church was not then held by the Church Catholick Sixthly to return the Argument upon them Christ had in all ages a true Catholick Church and consequently he had such a Church when their deformation went on in the Trent Council but they then in very many and important points of Doctrine did oppose all true Catholicks therefore without doubt they opposed the truly Catholick Church in very many and important points as in communion under one kind in Transubstantiation in Purgatorie in the merit of works in seven Sacraments of proper name in invocation and religious worship of the Saints in Images Yea the Roman Church hath more formally opposed the whole Church because in the Trent Council it would have the Roman Church to be the Catholick which supposeth that all Christians must strike sail to them or else they are sunke Seventhly we tell him wherein the Romanist hath divided from the whole Church but he doth not tell us
and pat could the most important matter in debate betwixt us have been more distinctly orderly and fully put down than to have shewn from place to place where I had not answered directly to the state of the question or had hit the question but did not sufficiently take off the Argument And could his Reply be by this manner more clear and perspicuous when it cannot appeare plainly how he took off my Answers or answered to the matter or form of my occasionall Arguments If this be an orderly Combate then let us beat the aire and that will be sufficient to beat an Adversary Thus much of the first Chapter which is no hard Chapter The Answer to the second Chapter No necessity of a Judge in all Controversies to whom all should be bound simply to submit their assent Num. 1. MY Adversarie says here that I go about to perswade him that he is most likely to take up his Religion by prejudice Ans It seems he is pleased to forbeare any Answer to my retortion of his similitude but he takes notice of my returning to him the greater probabilitie of prejudice in point of Religion to be on their part And he argues the contrary because being Recusants upon this account are liable to lose two parts of their Estates and what else we are or shall be pleased to take from them be it goods libertie or life Ans The prejudice on their part was as I said upon the opinion of the infalibilitie of their Church so that I spake upon account of a religious interesse and he answers me upon a civill account rather This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore this answer is not pertinent And whereas he would seem to have good ground in Conscience for his Religion for which he suffers so much if he intends to vye with us in that kind others of our Religion have suffered more from them Surely he forgets the Marian days wherein we dropped more blood than they have done And whereas he saies to me and what else you are or shall be pleased to take from us As to this much might be said also without passion in the same kind No man can take away more from us than our lives one would think Yes Roman Catholicks would take away from us Heaven too They had almost destroyed me upon earth saith the Psalmist But these will destroy us in heaven also Secondly If he who was mine Adversary was a Native of England he was as much included in the order of his deprivation as I. Thirdly I will say more yet that some of his Religion have had more favour than we Yea yet more than this one whom I think he knows well hath lost more in proportionall quantity as Aquinas distinguisheth than any of them hath lost who hath lost but two parts of three and for Conscience too Therefore that character which I gave the Romanist he is to keep still untill he can prove it doth belong more to us Certainly this is not proved not to belong to them because they have suffered so much for their Religion for we have suffered more and therefore it doth not belong to us but them rather But this suffering de se is easily known not to make an Argument for unlesse our cause be good before we suffer we have no cause to suffer at all The saying is common Causa non passio facit Martyrem Fourthly As for the present sufferings of the Papists they are neither rightly charged either upon our Church or upon our Kingdome for there is not yet proved any legall consent of either to what they or others have suffered Nay fifthly At the day of Judgement we shall see whether they are not more like to answer for what we have suffered than we for what they have suffered in these times So that while they do not see what is true against them they will seem to see what is not true against us As Tertullian said But let us come to the matter To examine then your grounds in the second num Num. 2. That God hath made man to a supernaturall end and to be attained by supernaturall meanes we grant as Aquinas in the begining of of his sums Take men indefinitely and confusely without exclusion of Infants dying before Baptisme from Salvation possible and those who are not compotes mentis and we grant it And also that amongst those meanes the first is true faith and that according to his mercifull providence he hath provided us some way to this faith so easie that all if they pleased might be brought to the knowledge of it namely exceptis excipiendis And that the greater part of men are ignorant yea all naturally ignorant of the way to this supernaturall end as Aquinas because it is supernaturall these things we yield to you And that because the far greater part were ignorant it beseemed his goodnesse who is the lover of soules to provide us such a way as that ignorant men should not be able unlesse by wilful carelesnesse to erre by it These things we do willingly yield But we demurre upon your assumption that this way should be the Church as you interpret that of Isaiah the 35 where you say the Prophet speakes of a path and a way which shall be so direct that fools cannot erre by it Here we must stand a while and inquire what is the sense of this way And first I must note that you do not rightly render the words according to the Hebrew veritie You say and it shall be unto you a direct way so that fools cannot erre But it is not so in the text But thus He shall be to them or with them walking the way and fools shall not erre How is your Church like to be this way when either you erre in not following it or it doth erre in not right following the text And you make it to be in the text a direct way and so that fools cannot erre Whereas it is rather shall not erre which doth note so much infalibilitie as preservation from error Now a negative of the act doth not prove a negative of the power for then the Argument would be good a non esse ad non posse Therefore could my Adversary have proved that the Church of Rome never erred which will never be proved yet all is not yet whole because infalibilitie is not yet proved by the not erring but by an impossibilitie of erring And if you may erre by carelesnesse as before then when were any sure of being right for who can be sure he hath been as carefull as he should be and therefore if this be the condition of not being deceived yea of infalibilitie it is at least morally impossible that any should be assured in their faith because they may be wanting in their diligence and so also may demerit a deprivation of Divine light My Adversary goes on To elude this text you say sure we may be that