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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A16170	A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist.	Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628.	1598 (1598)	STC 3092; ESTC S102284	61,282	90

neyther ought I to pay vnto God any becau●e I am his sonne But if any man will contend that hee affirmed that he ought to pay no tribute to the Emperour because he was the sonne of the supreme Emperour God Almightie I will not greatly striue with him but I will in noe wise graunt Felicius that he claimes to be discharged by right of any earthlie Empyre that he possessed as Christ for that by no meanes can be gathered out of the text yea what say you that that famous fryer Dominicus Soto doth holde in learned worke de Iustit Iure that the kingdome of Christ was meere spirituall and writeth that he had proued it at large in his commentaries vppon Mathew Moreouer the matter is so manifest that Pighius himselfe is forced to confesse that Christ his kingdome was onely spirituall and yet he giueth to him whome he woulde haue to be his deputie temporall superioritie ouer all Christian princes in that hee is Christ his Lieuetenant with as greate absurdidie as if a man shoulde denie that the Archbishoppe of Canterburie can heare and determine of felonies and yet holde that his officiall may or depriue the Constable of authoritie to enter forciblie into any mans house otherwise then in cases of treason and felonie and yet graunt it to the Constables deputie or to say that hir Maiestie can not put in or out at hir pleasure anie souldiours into hir towne of Barwicke and yet maintaine that hir Lieuetenaunt of the Towne may doe it And see I pray you how he answereth this obiection out of the Gospell as my father sent me so I sende you Whereas they say that Christ came not to exercise authoritie and empyre ouer Monarches Kinges and princes but as he was sente by the father Christ gaue no temporal power to Bishops nor Pope soe he doth witnesse that the Apostles were sent by him neyther therefore had they authoritie ouer kinges and princes they gather not aright for that word as doth not import a likenes in all points betweene them whih were sent Chist and his Apostles but doth shew the senders or the authoritie of the senders As if he had saide my father sent me but I send you otherwise Christ was sent by his father to redeeme mankind by his death but not so neyther to that end were the Apostles sent by Christ but for this purpose that they shoulde out of all nations gather together his kingdom in the which all men should be made partakers of his benefits vnto the which kingdom yet he himselfe had prescribed lawes and had ordained Peter to be gouernour thereof Yet had Peter no more authority then the rest of the Apostles I deny not but that the sending of Christ did in some pointes surmount the sending of the Apostles but that Christ sent forth his Apostles with a larger commission and power then his father had giuen him that no man I thinke will lightly grant Pighius that knoweth that rule of the Canon Law yea and I doe thinke of all lawes Nemo potest pius iuris conferre in alium quam sibi competere dignoscatur No man can giue more right vnto another then may be knowen is in himselfe the saying of Christ that the scholler is not aboue his schoolemaster nor the bondman aboue his Lord but it is enough for the scholler to be as his master is and the bondman as his Lord. And Iohn 13. Verily verily I say vnto you the seruāt is not greater then his master neither the Apostle nor legate or messenger greater then him that sent him And with what authority he sent them it appeareth by the words that immediatly follow when he had said these wordes he blew vpon them and said vnto them receiue the holy ghost whose sins ye shall remit they are remitted and whose sins ye shall retaine they are retained and can any man call this power an earthly empyre And bycause Pighius saith that Christ had ordained Peter gouernour of his kingdome I pray let vs consider what power he gaue vnto him at the time of his institution or inauguration his wordes be these Mat. 16. I will giue vnto thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde vpon the earth shall also be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose vpon the earth shall be also loosed in heauen yee apparantly see that Christ gaue vnto Peter not the keyes of the earthly kingdome or Empire to aduaunce and depose Princes but of the Kingdome of heauen to let in or shutte out from heauen neither had hee a sworde or Scepter giuen him as ensigne of a King but a key a token of a porter So that except the Pope can shewe annother Chapter then that which was giuen to Peter he will want wordes to carrie away a terrene monarch But although Pighius doe grant Christe his kingdome to be spiriuall yet Felisius in his booke vppon the tenne commaundements Felisius obiectiōs of Christs kingdom answered on the Commaundement honour thy father and thy mother will not yeelde thereunto but endeauoureth to proue his secular power and monarchy by his practise in deciding all kinde of causes as of life and death when he badde Peter put vp his sworde of criminall when he willed the woman taken in adultery to be gone and of ciuill when he determined the controuersi betweene the Pharisies the Herodians whether the Iewes ought to pay tribute vnto the Emperours of Rome or noe Doubtlesse if Felisius were not accounted for a great learned man among the Catholickes Romaine I would not vouchsafe to shape these obiections an answeare they are soe friuolous For who seeth not that Christ his commanding of Peter to put vp his sworde doth no more proue that Christ had authoritie of publique Iustice then the bidding of any simple gentleman in the Citty of London that his man put vp his sword which he had drawen in a fray against his enemy will conuince him to be a Iustice of the peace of the same Citty But that Christ saide vnto the woman taken in adultery that she might begonne her way for seeing noe man had condēned hir neyther would he He doth plainly declare that he had noe authoritie to condemne or detaine hir but that she might be gone for any thing he had to say or deale with hir Now for the matter of paying tribute it was not brought before him as a competent Iudge by parties sueing and sued by processe awarded or vppon distresse taken but onely moued vnto him as a skilful Doctor and learned diuine to be determined as a doubt betweene the two sectes of the Pharisies and the Herodians As if a Protestant and Catholicke should priuately come to Doctor Felisius to know his opinion whether the Pope may depose Christian Princes or noe but in very deede they came not to Christ to be resolued of the doubt but onely to entrappe him and to see if

hauock he made in all the the Churches subiect vnto him in Italy Sicileye and Sardinia and yet for all this Peter drewe not the sworde for hee yet remembred how bitterly his master had once checked him before for fighting Anno Dom. 700. Iustinianus the Emperour saith Diaconus commaunding Constantine the Pope to come vnto him honourably receiued him Constantine and sent him backe whom he beeing prostrated on the ground desired to be an intercessor vnto God for his sinnes renewed all the priuiledges of his Church why then the priuiledges were first giuen by the Emperour and not by God himselfe But that the Emperour fell downe at the Bishops feete it was done in respect not of his greatnesse but of his godlinesse a thing vsually done by great princes vnto ancient Monkes and Hermites renowned for their strict life and rare pietie whereof all Christian histories yeelde vs store of examples and this to be soe doth his request of intercession vnto GOD for his sinnes manifestly shewe But to returne againe to our practise about Anno Domini 690. another Iustinian the Emperour sent Zacharias his Protospatharius or high Constable into Italy for to bring Sergius the Bishop of Rome Sergius vnto him in Irons because he woulde not subscribe vnto a lewde counsell helde by him at Constantinople Sabell and he had done it if that the Emperiall Armie in Italy what for hatred of the Emperour and the good will of the Pope and his cause had not speedily marched to Rome to withstand his apprehension yet this Emperour did afterwarde renewe for Constantine the Bishop a confirmation of all the p●iuiledges of the Sea of Rome This Constantine was the first Bishop of Rome saith Omphrius the newe Chronicler of the Popes Qui in os ausus est resistere which durst resist the Emperours of Constantinople to their faces for he at the importunate petition of the people of Rome who requested it with great outcries decreede that the name of Philippicus the Emperour shoulde not be mentioned at the Aulter nor in anie writing or recordes nor his image set vp in their Churches because he had commaunded the Bishop to consent vnto his Arrianisme and the abolishing of the Images of Saintes But Paulus Diaconus who liued neare that time writeth that statuit populus the people decreede and not the Pope About Anno Domini 7●5 Leo Isauricus the Emperour commaunded Gregory the Bishop of Rome Gregorie the second to destroy all the images of the Saintes the which he refused to doe But although the Emperour did execute many therefore and about that matter banished the patriarch of Constantinople and had sundry times practised the Popes death both couertly and also by open forces causing the Eparch to bring his Armie before the Citie of Rome where he was repelled by the Lombardes yet woulde the Pope by no meanes be wonne to consent that a new Emperour should be chosen in Ital●e the which was now in a good forwardnesse the people hauing slaine Martin the gouernour of the Citie of Rome and his sonne the Lieuetenant of Campania and the Citizens of Rauenna the Eparch and had chosen them almost in euerie Citie newe officers But Gregorie woulde by no meanes consent thereunto but wonne them to be quiet with much a doe But when the Emperour woulde not desist from forcing of his edict for the abolishment of Images vppon the Romanes and the Italians Gregorie the third successor vnto the other helde a Counsell in Italie wherein he excommunicated the Emperour and then the Citizens of Rome and all the teritorie about called by the name of the Duchy of Rome reuolted from the Emperour who was negligent in defending them against the Lombardes that had sweeped him almost out of all Italie from Rome to the Alpes and soe the Pope became prince of the Citie and Duchie of Rome S. Sigon de regno Italiae and subiect vnto no man about the yeare 730. And to establish the state of the Romane principalitie by stopping of titles Zacharias the Pope wonne his Creator Pepine the french king to spoyle Aistulfus the king of the Lombardes of Rauenna by right whereof beeing the siege of the Gotish kingdome and the emperiall exarchate in Italy The Pope cannot depose princes he claimeth tribute of the Romanes and for to bestowe it vppon him and his successors for to take away all quarrell for euer Thus ye see that the Bishoppes of Rome were alwaies subiect vnto the temporall princes of the Citie vntill such time as the reuolting people had created him their prince as all other Bishops in ciuill soueraigne so that the Popes are not exempted of temporall subiection by the institution of GOD but by the election of men as the high priestes became to be soueraignes after the returne of the Iewes from Babylon there beeing ordained to be the temporall prince Then seeing by the ordinance of God the Pope was a subiect and by the creation of men beeing made a soueraigne onely ouer some certaine prouinces I cannot see howe eyther by Gods Law or mans hee can rightly claime anie authoritie to depose Christian princes at his pleasure no more then any other subiecte can his soueraigne or seuerall soueraignes one another to grant eyther of which is soe absurde that I shoulde shewe my selfe to haue verie little witte if I shoulde goe aboute to refute eyther as though any man that had common sense woulde doubte of them For to reason that Sixtus Quintus because hee is secular soueraigne ouer these prouinces which are called the patrimonie of Peter may therefore depose all other Christian princes is as good an argument as if I shoulde saie ELIZABETH is Queene of England therefore she may depose the prince of the patrimonie and all other Christian princes So that by prouing my first proposition that Christ gaue vnto Peter and his successors no soueraignetie secular I haue also conuinced the seconde that they can not depriue Christian princes of their principalities The Pope cannot depose the temporall soueraine Neyther is the Popes claime anie thing aduanced by those two sayinges of Christ vnto Peter which I doe finde alleadged by Gregorie the seuenth when hee first of anie Pope deposed Henry the fourth Emperour as the warrant of his doings Plati The first is feede my sheepe wherein hee did not sayde Gregorie exempt Kinges And the other whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on the earth shall be bound in Heauen and whatsoeuer thou doest loose in the earth shall be loosed in Heauen For I haue proued before that Christ his kingdome was spirituall and soe a spirituall charge of soules hee committed to Peter and the rest of the Apostles and their successors and noe Empyre ouer the bodies and goods of anie men But Doctor S●u●ders takes greate holde of the Greeke woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Poimaine which the Apostle vseth when Christ bad Peter the second time to feede his sheepe for that

worde saith hee signifieth also to gouerne It doth indeede properlie signifie to keepe sheepe as we terme it wherein wee include not onelie the feeding of them but also the care of looking to them that they take noe harme the dressing of them when they be ill and all other thinges belonging to the charge and duetie of a sheepehearde and properlie no other signification hath it but by a Metaphore to shewe with howe greate care mildenesse and lenitie kinges ought to gouerne their subiectes Homer and Plato doe often call kinges sheepeheardes of the people and so likewise the sacred scriptures In the twentith of the Actes we haue the same wordes where we reade Therefore looke vnto your selues and the whole flocke wherein the holie Ghost hath placed you Bishoppes and ouerseers in greeke poimaine the Church of God which he hath purchased him with his bloode Nowe that the Apostles or any Bishoppes had any secular power Pighius himselfe doth denie as long as the temporall princes had not receiued the Gospell so that this worde can by no meanes importe anie earthly superioritie And in this Oration Paule doth plainely declare what kinde of kingdome Christes is when hee saith to gouerne the Church of God which he purchased with his bloode for he purchased none with his bloode but t●●s spirituall kingdome for as GOD hee was possessed o● the Empyre of the whole worlde from the beginning But the place of binding and losing we haue examined alreadie and proued that it cannot be vnderstoode otherwise then Christ himselfe doth interpret it in the twenteth of Iohn whose sinnes ye shall remitte are remitted and whose sinnes yee shall retaine are retained and a receiuing into the Church and kingdome of heauen and a shutting out of it And therefore he saith whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen and not shall be bounde in earth least any man should dreame that he gaue Peter secular power ouer earthly Empires and that all the commandements and ordinances and decrees of his successors touching worldly matters should be receiued and kept throughout the whole world Neither if the Pope had any such authoritie giuen him by any generall Counsell A general counsell cannot depose Princes as I am assured he hath not for as for the canon made in the counsell of Laterane we will anone make a large seuerall treatise thereof were it good and sufficient to binde all Princes to obedience because it lieth not in the power of a generall counsell to dispose of secular matters For seeing generall counsells doe altogether consist of persons ecclesiasticall and they doe allow noe temporall prince any voice therein and that all the Byshoppes that are assembled there do sit as Byshops spirituall Lords not as temporal that they be secular subiects not soueraignes that the kingdom of the Church is a distincte kingdom as al the Catholickes say from the kingdomes of the world It is as absurd to holde that they can makes lawes touching temporalities to be obserued of all temporall Princes vnder temporall paines as if a madde man would affirme that the assembly of the three states of France may ordaine statutes for the Queenes maiesty of England hir realme and that they are bound in conscience to obserue all lawes made there For doubtlesse the temporall and the ecclesiasticall kingdomes are as seuerall kingdomes as Englande France which haue more alliance together then the other two because they are both secular both bodilie both ruled by one sword but of the other the one is spirituall the other bodily the one of the worlde the other of heauen the one swayed by the ciuill and materiall sworde ●he other by the spirituall the one slaying the soule the other the body But now I would not haue any fond man to imagine that I doe goe about to spoile the temporall prince of his high prerogatiue in ordaining of holsome lawes for the maintenance of the true faith of Christ and the sincere obseruation of all the rest of his holy commandementes the which I doe thinke him bound in conscience to doe but that I doe firmely beleeue and openly professe that by the right giuen him by God he may punish all persons both ecclesiasticall and temporall within his dominions that shall offend either in faith or manners by fine imprisonment banishment confiscation of landes and goodes attainder of blood death or finally any other temporall paines as the noble princes of this land haue alwaies vsed to doe And therefore Iustice Brian in Decimo of Henry the seauenth doth call the King a mixt person for he is saith Brian a person vnited with the priests of holy Church But I denie him the administration of gods holy sacraments and the exercise of the spirituall sworde which I doe appropriate vnto the ecclesiasticall officers Wherefore much lesse can the Byshoppes in a generall counsell giue away the crownes of their Kinges seeing according to the afore rehearsed rule of the Canon law noe man can giue that right vnto another which he hath not himselfe But if there were ordained a bodie politicke of all the Christian princes and states what they beeing assembled in a counsell generall might doe is annother question the which we will leaue to bee disputed of them that shall see this happe institution And in the meane time they must pardon vs if we doe not lightly beleeue that the Pope hath power to depose Princes seeing wee can finde no warrant therefore neither in the scriptures the auncient counsells the olde fathers the practise of the Church of God neither before Christ neither seauen hundreth years after him although there raigned many Idolatrous hereticall and wicked Princes Of the Iewish Kinges verye few were good but rather such men as GOD had streightly commaunded that they shoulde not spare if they were their Brothers or such a friende as hee looued as dearely as his owne soule but that his hand should bee first vppon him to stone him to death and yet wee doe not reade that any one of them was deposed by the high Priestes or his subiectes armed against him by them And yet were they so zealous men of their dignitie that they would in noe wise suffer the King to vsurpe ought vppon him in so much that one of them openly withstoode Ozias the King The history of king Ozias handled that woulde vnlawfully execute his office in offring incense vnto GOD neither doth the expelling of this King out of the temple by rhe Priestes because God had for his proude part stricken him with leprosie and that thereupon hee sequestred himselfe from companie and left the gouernement of matters of state vnto his sonne prooue ought against the prerogatiue of Princes The text saith 2. Coro 26.20 that they caused hastily to depart thence he was euen compelled to goe out as the English authour of the ecclesiasticall discipline doth inferre For hee was not expelled out of

with him the curse pronounced in that place by the Prophet Ieremy The practise of deposing Princes neuer came of charitie Cursed is the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme And because Cardinall Hosius will haue Luthers doctrine tried whether it bee good or bad by the roote that bredde it I pray let vs also see from what roote this practise of deposing of Princes did spring There be two rootes saith Agustine vppon Iohn and out of him Hosius which two husbandmen the holie Ghost and the deuill set in mans hart the one charitie or loue the other inordinate desire Henry of the one commeth all good of the other all ill now whether of these rootes brought forth deposition of Princes I praye let vs consider The first Pope that did it in practise about Anno Domini 108● was Gregory the seuenth against Henry the fourth Emperour because he being exasperated against the Pope for excommunicating of fiue of his chiefe counsellours whome he thought ruled him to much and for commaunding him vppon paine of excommunication to appeare before him at Rome the twesday in second weeke of Lent to purge himselfe of such chrimes as his rebellious subiectes the Saxons had accused him of See Platina and Sigonius had called a counsell in Germany where Gregory was deposed being accused there by Hugh Blancke a Cardinall and many Italian Byshoppes of Necromancy heresy lecherie symony tiranny and I know not what else nor force how truely but most true it is that this was the cause of the Emperours deposing as it doth appeare by the Popes bull wherein wee finde these wordes Because he hath too audaciously and rashly laid hands on the Church the Pope speakes to Peter and because he hath not obeyed my authoritie as becommeth a Christian c. therfore in thy name I do accurse him depose him discharge all men of obedience towardes him and forbid them to obey him that all nations may know that thou art Peter c. Now to depose the Emperour because he had caused him to be deposed was this charitie or inordinate desire of reuenge did any of his predecessors before him the like God saith reuenge is mine I will repey it and S. Paul charitie seeketh not hir owne I pray you tel me what Charity was it towards the Church Christendom rather then he would forsake his sea yea or reuoke his cholericke censure that he would see all Germany and Italy See Sabel almost vtterly destroyed by ciuill warres his fauourers in Germany broken in seauen blody battelles his two Idol Emperours slaine and all the forces of his Italian staffe stay the mightie countesse Mawde vtterly defayted great part of the Citizens of Rome consumed by three yeares seige the Burgo San Pietro twise sacked and defaced all the house of the Corsy the noblest Citizens of Rome and his fastest friendes raced to the grounde the miracle of the world the septisolium taken and deformed his nephew taken prisoner the cyty of Rome twise sette on fire by Suiscardo whom being excommunicated now reconciled he had procured to come to discharge him out of the castle of San. Angelo with two huge wastes remaine yet to be seene at this day in the fayrest part of the Cytie for a perpetuall reproch for the first deposing of Princes yet woulde not his stoute heart stoupe but when at the importunate prayers of the oppressed Romaines hee had graunted to receiue the Emperour into grace vppon his submission he afterward vtterly refused it because the Citizens requested that the Emperour might doe it in his imperiall robes and fled first into the Castle San Angelo and afterward vnto Salerne where he died in voluntarie banishment not daring to abide at Rome for feare of the Citizens who for these manifolde calamities with which he had ouerwhelmed them did deadly hate him What an hard heart had he that would not relent at so many and extreeme mischieues and miseries Did he not blush to remember how the noble Quintus Metellus a pagane being wrongfully forbididden fyre and water by Apulieus the Tribune of the commonaltie to be reuenged on Meitellus for putting him out of the senate for his lewde life chose rather willingly to go into bannishment hauing the stronger faction then that any tumult should be stirred vp in the Citie for him Againe how many of his predecessors did for righteousnes sake suffer banishment imprisonment yea and painfull death when they might haue shrowded and saued themselues we haue alreadie shewed by many examples And also Marcellinus a pagane doth report that Constantius the Emperour coulde hardlie in the dead time of the night carrie Liberius out of the Citie of Rome with great difficulty for the good will of the people that burned in his loue so that it is likelie that if the Bishop would with force haue resisted he woulde haue beene to hot and to heauy for the Emperour to carry away But neyther God nor Deuill had yet reueeled vnto the Bishop of Rome this newe dignitie of Gregories See Platina and Sigon that they could by Apostolicall power binde all men not onely in spirite but also in bodie and all the goods of fortune that they might depose Emperorus for their pride cōtumacy in not obeying of their commaundementes as Gregorie did Henry and giue the Empyre vnto another for his humilitie and obedience as Gregorie did to Rodulph because he had promised to giue his sonnes pledges for assurance that he wolde stand to the Popes arbiterment for they yet knewe not this reason that Gregorie alleadged quite voyde of reason in these wordes Wherefore O Peter and Paule the most holy and chiefe of the Apostles confirme by your authoritie that which I haue spoken that all men may nowe at the length vnderstand that if ye can binde and loose in heauen that then we also can in earth take away and giue Empieres and Kingdomes and whatsoeuer else men haue For if ye can iudge those thinges which doe appertaine to God what is to be thought we may doe in these inferior and prophane thinges And if it belong to you to iudge Angels that raigne ouer proude princes what is it seemely that we doe with their bondmen Therefore let kinges and all princes of the worlde learne by this Emperous example what ye can doe in heauen and how great ye are with God and henceforth feare to contemne the commaundementes of the holy Church Doubtlesse these words now at length may learne and henceforth may feare were very significantly put in by G●●gorie for indeed before this time this doctrine was vnknowen to the world as also that learned Hermite of Rome the Popes Chronicler Omphrius a man inferior to none in the knowledge of the Romane antiquities doth confesse in his booke of Cardinals in these wordes Bishops cardinales did at the first take their place among other Bishoppes according to the anciency of their creation but afterward